In this episode, Seth Matlins, managing director of the Forbes CMO Network, talks with Jonny Bauer about his thesis on enterprise value creation, one formed by his years as Droga5’s Chief Strategy Officer and Blackstone’s Global Head of Brand Strategy and Transformation. Now, the founder and CEO of Fundamentalco, Jonny’s insights into the upstream role of brand in driving business strategy and not just downstream marketing outputs are well worth every CEO, CFO and Board considering.
Note:
In the episode, Jonny refers to one of the earliest pieces of work to come from then new agency, Droga5. The 2006 spot for streetwear brand ECKO is known as “Tagging Air Force One.” See it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eP0iSJQLfJ4
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Note:
In the episode, Jonny refers to one of the earliest pieces of work to come from then new agency, Droga5. The 2006 spot for streetwear brand ECKO is known as “Tagging Air Force One.” See it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eP0iSJQLfJ4
Subscribe to FORBES: https://www.youtube.com/user/Forbes?sub_confirmation=1
Fuel your success with Forbes. Gain unlimited access to premium journalism, including breaking news, groundbreaking in-depth reported stories, daily digests and more. Plus, members get a front-row seat at members-only events with leading thinkers and doers, access to premium video that can help you get ahead, an ad-light experience, early access to select products including NFT drops and more:
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LifestyleTranscript
00:00so johnny let me ask you a first question what is your favorite thing about me your glasses
00:11i was kind of hoping for something less superficial and more substantive second
00:18shot do it your voice all right that didn't work at all by the way we're keeping this in the show
00:26um here's a question for you you go from chief strategy officer at droga five uh where you
00:36created the strategy function you know you were an integral part of drogas being named agency of the
00:42decade lots of agency of the years along the way working with some of the biggest brands and
00:48businesses in the world and you shift and you go into private equity and you go to blackstone
00:53so my question with a very specific thesis in mind i want you to share what your thesis was with
00:59our audience but also help us understand what blackstone in fact understood about your thesis
01:07why they thought it was relevant because as is the premise of this show not a lot of chief executives
01:13the world's business companies might have gotten that the way they did um great not a softball first
01:20question well you know there are no softballs here especially since you said nice things about my
01:25glasses well i think that what um blackstone and i believed was that brand um could be
01:35a lever that could be used with greater intentionality to connect to value creation for
01:43its portfolio of companies um and that the definition of brand um within the kind of pe backed context was
01:53often limited so the the questions that you a common misperception of what brand is within that
02:02context oh brand is brand is a logo or the the brand is an identity or maybe um oh brand that's i that
02:11that that that's a website or maybe an advertising um element so the perception of brand within that
02:17context is often quite downstream when the thesis was that's a very limited definition of what brand is
02:27brand is essentially an idea that can help align and organize an entire company around and it can act as
02:35a blueprint um for it to be a guide to places of higher value so the thesis was let's not do a bunch
02:44of interventions and then bring the brand people in and ask the question who are we or what are we
02:50let's bring brand much further upstream in the sequence of value creation and at the outset really sit down
02:58and think through what could this company become next um and as um blackstone very clearly understood
03:07that the um the kind of efficiency based approach to value creation um had somewhat played out and we're
03:18shifting and evolving to a vision based approach to value creation so it's it's less around what can we strip out
03:26but what can this company become next i wish i'd taken better notes because there's so many things
03:36within that that i want to unpack let me start by asking where did you come to this perspective what
03:43in your rather illustrious if i may say so career led you to this particular unlock and then i want to talk
03:51about how again what challenges if any you may have faced in selling the premise in at blackstone
04:01so um the thinking that led up to arriving in a financial context and then you know in in the last year
04:11spinning out of it was always a um a kind of wish for what we do to make a different level of
04:21contribution to a company and when you say we in that context define it just just me like okay is
04:27what i want the work that i'm doing to be adding value and to be on the hook for adding value and
04:35when you i'm sorry to interrupt but when you talk about adding value you're actually talking about
04:39adding shareholders stakeholder commercial monetary value not like hey that was really good i'm glad we
04:45did it right well i think the the bar that we now set for is this contributing to enterprise value of
04:50a company is it helping make the company more valuable it didn't that was a uh a new lens that i
04:58placed on the thinking when we were at droga the the the the thinking was always how can marketing
05:05add a different level of contribution to a company's growth and i really think that droga did an
05:14incredible job of maybe redefining um what good marketing looked like um certainly contributed to
05:23the um the definition of what viral marketing became um and also took big brands out of traditional
05:32marketing uh channels um and thinking in a much more integrated and digital nature for the first time
05:41at the risk of digression what's an example or two that you can share um so even i mean i'm trying
05:48to think of um the many but even what droga's first um uh piece of content that they did which attracted
05:57me to the company i played no role air force one was for um echo a clothing company where um you know
06:03they they used very non-traditional channels to create virality around the awareness of an attitude
06:09that underpinned a company that really resonated with uh you know a young audience we're gonna drop
06:14um that video link into the notes for the show so people can check it out because if if i remember i
06:20remember the moment i saw it yeah um david hadn't started droga yet that it had started it was very
06:28very early days and i saw that and i was like this isn't this is a different thing this is um how to
06:34raise awareness of a brand without spending traditional media dollars and integrating into
06:40a cultural narrative i felt very energized and excited around this and started working with them
06:45very early on but then to integrate um strategy into their process and deliver that but it was all
06:52so there are too many um use cases around the contribution the different kind of marketing that
06:58droga brought into um the the the the marketplace and it evolved over time starting with you know
07:05upstarts and and and and streetwear companies um but you know obviously graduating to jp morgan chase
07:14lead agency 10 plus years still growing that kind of you know that that business so um and i was always
07:21uh you know always a strategist and try to um use strategy to um change where the start point was
07:31right and so so so you weren't throwing spaghetti at a wall but we're all very clear on why this company
07:37existed what its core differentiation was what it value added and and and where we were pointing at
07:43right prioritizing um growth audiences and not kind of you know boiling the ocean so adding a lot of
07:50like strategic rigor um and and and conceptual thinking um to a creative to then you know bring
07:57to life execute take to the next level and ultimately you know create amazing effective work
08:02um and that was you know it was an amazing company it still is an amazing company and i still work with
08:08droga on different levels through some of our clients with great um you know effect the the the
08:14the the the need though for me was we were often coming up with pretty transformational ideas for
08:23companies um and getting more access to the c-suite and really rethinking um you know what could this
08:31company become or how could these ideas um connect to more than the marketing but the reality was
08:37there was a lot of transformational ideas that were just transforming the advertising and that
08:44we're getting stuck in marketing um even though they could be connected to so many more components
08:51of the company and that was largely um a product of dealing with the chief marketing officer as the
08:57client having the ceo not necessarily connected to the foundational thinking right just a view of the
09:05work and and the siloed nature of these companies where you know the very often in many of these big
09:12companies the product people don't talk to the marketing people are disconnected from you know so
09:16so it's very hard to find a way of um you know getting these ideas the right seat at the table that can
09:24then connect to um and be useful to um more parts of the company and more people within the company
09:33and so it was with that intentionality that i tried to focus on private companies um for a number of
09:43reasons so obviously um this is a company that is if once it's recently been acquired um they're going
09:53through a a chapter two moment right and um this company has been bought and will want to be sold
10:01um at some point most likely and if it is going to be sold for more than it was bought for there will
10:08most likely need to be interventions and changes to that company for it to become something of higher
10:13value and so for me it really seemed like the right moment of receptivity to a company really
10:21thinking what is next in a way that felt bigger than marketing i'm wondering about your choice of the
10:29intervention which i find really interesting right um one might have more readily expected
10:36innovation um expansion new markets but intervention is very purposeful why why that word what's it
10:43what's it mean as you use it it's just what what we're it's just the word that's used um in that
10:51context around within private equity yes i see so it's vernacular from so it could be a move to
10:58to to talent the talent intervention a technology intervention um and marketing into so it's just
11:04there are lots of different levers that in my career talent intervention has never been a good
11:09thing just saying and it's not necessarily swapping someone out but if a company is going to become
11:15take on a new set of capabilities then they'll they'll need new talent to you know oversee those
11:22capabilities so so the premise as i understand it and i i think i do right is is it's a tail wagging
11:30the dog thing right instead of brand being limited and siloed to marketing which has as the thesis of
11:37the show suggests been siloed and oftentimes too oftentimes because once is too many times
11:44divorced from being the strategic and financial engine that it is intended to be
11:50um you're taking it from downstream to upstream from marketing value to valuation increases in
11:59valuation the idea is met with initial oh yeah this makes all the sense in the world at blackstown
12:07by leadership or no they didn't quite see it the way you saw it in which well did they see it as you
12:14saw it from yeah i mean they're really smart people yes they're very smart um and they've had some
12:19success they they they really uh yeah they've they've had a little bit of success and they really
12:24understood um what we were articulating and the lady um that became you know my my boss that oversaw
12:34all of the kind of like operational um capabilities for the portfolio of companies was thinking along the
12:41same lines of this kind of and um and the the the higher-ups thought it was a good idea right and so
12:47it was like i see that let let's give that a try um and and and and see how what what can happen
12:57when um brand is given that seat at the table within this context okay so blackstone buys it but now
13:04you have to buys into it now you have to convince the individual chief executives of the portfolio
13:10companies right how to operationalize the premise yes talk to us about that tell us the story so um
13:17they have blackstone doesn't force anything right you know um on its companies but they do offer
13:27a ton of you know operational help um if if if it makes sense within that um that that context or
13:38that category and there were a bunch of um you know investors um that thought that this made sense
13:45to create an introduction to those companies and then um you know there were thankfully um you know
13:55some really good um pickup of the practice within the portfolio and we worked really hard um to over
14:03deliver um and create um some case studies that um we're able to um you know show the contribution
14:12um or how it worked when you you you brought in foundational like brand strategy at the same time
14:19that you were you know fleshing out your value creation plan and understanding um how those things
14:25could be connected and um so you know that it kind of went from you know here's one to oh you know
14:33can i get one of those right and um you know then it became and it was it was it was it was amazing but
14:39it was it was it was it was challenging um because some of the challenges well the you know that these
14:47things can cost money and take time right and and um it was making sure that we were starting with um
14:57you know the right set of circumstances where people you could take the necessary time to do it the right
15:05way and the right amount of resource connected to it um you know because you can get asked to do it in a
15:13way if it's not their you know area of expertise like how long does it take you know can you just do
15:18it in this amount of time and they're all really really fair questions but you know i'd done this
15:23long enough to know that um if if you if you cut corners in the end it would be bad yeah right and so
15:32and and and and um you know sarah thompson who is like a an amazing like lifelong partner and colleague
15:38of mine has a catchphrase that no one remembers how you get to bad they just like remember that
15:43it was bad so it was um trying to be sarah was the chief executive sarah was the global uh yeah chief
15:50the ceo of drug of five is now the um the chair person of of uh fundamental co yeah actually just
15:56while you mention fundamental co let me do what i didn't do at the top which is just um give you a
16:02little uh midway introduction so for those who haven't figured it out yet or didn't read the
16:08title of the show in which case how'd you get here today i'm sitting with johnny bauer who today
16:13is the founder and chief executive of fundamental co uh as we've been talking about before fundamental
16:18is it always fundamental co or fundamental co before fundamental co glad i asked johnny was the um
16:26you got to keep our search yeah yeah yeah it's well by the way seo is changing so you know
16:31you got to now manage for the bots um johnny was global head of um blackstone's brand strategy
16:37and transformation group and as we've also discussed before that he was partner and global
16:42chief strategy officer at droga five where droga five i didn't really say that very well i think
16:49it's your australian accent that's kind of tripping me up a little bit could you it's really not a
16:54strong accent it's stronger than you think um to an american ear um but no it's not to an untrained
17:01um to an untrained ear uh there he founded and led all the strategic efforts for clients and new
17:07businesses including branded business strategy innovation media data strategy and experience
17:12strategy and um among many other accolades johnny was both the youngest um inductee into the aaf's
17:21hall of achievement and the only strategist at least at that time and in 19 uh in 19 in 2023
17:28johnny was amongst those recognized on the forbes world's most influential cmos list because of his
17:35work with so many cmos and ceos so with that introduction thanks by the way for being here
17:41thanks for having me no it's delightful to see you um you two are wearing very nice glasses i should say
17:47talk to me and and the audience about the people keeping it anonymous of course who just didn't get it
17:55who didn't understand that brand strategy was in fact business strategy or at least could be
17:59what what didn't they get like what are you seeing what have you seen as some of kind of the common
18:05just disconnects for chief executives who by and large have no marketing background or experience
18:12at least at the biggest companies i want to make sure i understand the question because i think that
18:18the onus is always on us to be able to translate it into the metrics that matter most to that audience
18:26so you know within this context um you know the investment context it's it's how can
18:35these ideas make my company more valuable and there are a lot of different ways in which
18:43we spend to to to measure that and so you know one way so there are two fundamental you know ways
18:51that we think of how to make a company more valuable one is to become a bigger company and grow
18:56and what are the how are you measuring each tactic toward connecting to growth um but the other way to
19:04become a more valuable company is to transform into something of higher value right and that can be
19:10through becoming a a company that has a larger addressable audience or tam or or is um will
19:17ultimately be sold for a higher multiple so there are there are some sets of circumstances where you
19:24don't need to grow if you're going to transform into something more valuable or just become bigger
19:29but for everything that you're doing being really intentional around understanding when will we know when
19:36we've become this other thing what's the minimum we need to do to credibly become that other thing
19:42um and and and having everyone aligned to prioritize and sequence what it will take to get us there
19:50mm-hmm what's an example of um becoming more valuable without growing is it a shift in
19:59right so it could be like a strategic repositioning of a company if a company really is an ai company
20:08or has a fundamental ai component to how it works that is being valued as a technology company not an ai
20:20company what's the strategic positioning that could enable that company to be seen for the value that has
20:26been created within that company and sold as an ai company or there are examples of companies where
20:31we've worked at are on um uh mechanical companies that can be transformed into um energy transition
20:39companies or are energy transition companies but are just not being seen and valued as energy transition
20:45companies it makes me think of of kind of you know that period of time it's probably you know
20:50i don't know it's it's a decade or so ago give or take where suddenly every company positioned
20:58themselves most every company is a tech company because every company wanted tech company valuations and
21:04and uh ratios
21:06as a strategist you of course look at that and it's like if you're not a tech company like you will call
21:15bullshit on the bullshit where do you find and kind of mine for the elasticity that gives a company an
21:24enterprise the permission to expand into a different place credibly sustainably so that
21:31they can see that um so that it can be monetized that's a that's a great question i mean the two
21:37questions i get asked every week are can you turn my tech company into an ai company or can you turn
21:46my protein company into an ozempic best friend or companion and the answer is unless you are an ai
21:53company we cannot transform your company into an ai company but if you have um ai as a a component of
22:01your business we can come up with ideas that create room for you to be able to telegraph
22:06and define the role that ai plays within your system and we can make that a bigger part of your
22:13narrative and and but or here's what you really need to go through to become an ai company and that
22:21may require an acquisition that may require pulling something down and rebuilding something in a
22:27different way when when you talk about it becoming a bigger part of their narrative is that then and i put
22:33these next two words in quotes just marketing or is that kind of operational narrative enterprise
22:39narrative more than the narrative in addition to what's being put out into the world because it
22:45seems there's a little tension with what you said at the top yeah i think that um let me let me try
22:51give you an example so like um do you do you know the company clear yes right yes um so people think of
23:01them as a skip the queue at the airport company it would be easier to skip the queue if they had more
23:09people manning their stations but i digress you will always always in the end be better off
23:17having used clear um there you go karen um that's my spit it's uh but but but the reality is and and
23:27and and then that that's thinking through of the the the the value that the market sees that company
23:33but they do so much more than help you skip the queue at the airport company and use technology
23:40to help you um pull up the right version of you at the right moment in a lot of different contexts
23:51in order to create no no so it can be i am at the airport what's the right version of me that will
23:58allow me to go through security i'm at the hospital what's the right version of me that will enable them
24:03to know what room to send me to to i'm at the hertz rental car what's my do i do they know that i can't
24:11drive stick to um to even signing in through like linkedin so this is like a connected identity company
24:19um that is able to pull up the right version of you wherever it's needed in order to enable a more
24:28uh frictionless experience um that is true that is what they are they're how does the brand catch up
24:36to the definition of what that company actually is and how it should be valued and thought of and
24:44integrated into their narrative but that then seems to me to be as much a marketing challenge as
24:50anything else which is how do we tell the story of who we are more broadly and comprehensively
24:56even if who we're telling that story to are the capital markets and not our b2b or b2c customer
25:03but in in that it but it but it is going through the process to clarify not just what we say but
25:08what we are yeah and make sure everyone in the company is closely connected to that those sets of
25:13ideas and making that idea more true over time so once you've codified this is the thing that we are
25:19yes there is a degree that then does cascade into storytelling and or marketing but also
25:27acts as a filter for what they do next and don't do next and and in that moment where it acts as a
25:35filter what what popped into my head as you said that was was rather tactical a checklist right and
25:44um the chief executive of acme widget company is they have bought into the premise and and you and
25:53fundamental co are helping them understand who they are they're exploring the next opportunity right
25:59how do they ensure right just at its simplest level that what they might do next what's the checklist
26:10that says yeah this is actually within our permission to play and this is a bridge too far
26:16got it so that's something you've really got to get right and no one can be squinting at the end of this
26:22right so where do you you know interrogate a company until it confesses it's it's um an understanding
26:33where the core equities are around that company and then figuring out um where it has license to
26:43extend those equities into but also with not with which audiences and at which price points right so
26:52so we're um we're going through a um you know a hair care transformation now of a um a company that has
27:02um you know is limited within one context of hair care but is looking to expand well beyond that
27:08by understanding what equities that company embodies and people really understand and believe are most
27:14unique and special acted as a clear guidance for where they could extend to next and then we went
27:21through a lot of the rigor of sizing and valuing the audience in those categories and testing their
27:27openness and receptivity to our company appearing in that category and building the and together build
27:35the business case around that right so this is the the the the amount of um you know opportunity sizing
27:41an audience um sizing and valuing in connection to these strategies is is uh is is really really
27:49important and we do a lot of that work alongside um some of the consultancies at certain points where
27:55they're coming through to saying like this is where to play we come in and then really help with this
28:01is how to win by becoming what i like the distinction between playing and winning because of course nobody's
28:06in it to play there's uh if you're sick of consultancies telling you that you know you need to get more
28:12customers or get your existing customers to use you more as the answer in a thousand point powerpoint
28:18we we we come in and often take a lot of that data and think through by becoming this so so to uh to
28:26call the memes is unfair because they're not but um two things from my social feed the other day
28:31um one to your last point i think it was assistance via agents that posted this apologies might have been
28:37agency problems but it's like you know uh 27 year old uh consultant who's never worked anywhere else you
28:44need to cut costs and increase profits right i was like well that that one landed there's a great
28:49i'm looking at it now um i'll try and actually i don't have the license so i won't drop it in
28:55but a new yorker cartoon that has a bunch of pirates um kind of looking around uh a map and and the caption
29:01is we have too few treasure maps and far too many org charts and that kind of sounds a little bit
29:07if not the latter part of it i think what you're talking about is ensuring um that people
29:14understand the role of brand in in that treasure map right because that is you know we celebrate
29:20capitalism here entrepreneurial capitalism that is what this is about not at the expense of all others
29:27but it is about that treasure um and and maximizing you know profitable sustainable growth which is of
29:34course the the role of enterprise i want to ask you a question earlier in the conversation you talked
29:41about kind of the the shift from inside your your advertising career your marketing career on the
29:47agency side because i i do want to distinguish between advertising and marketing because it's
29:53long stop being uh synonyms for each other um kind of the cmo is client and the ceo is client
30:00as you moved into pe and what you're doing at fundamental co what's the role of
30:05the cmo in these conversations what do you think it should be um so it's varied depending on what
30:16kind of company you're working with a lot of the the companies that we've worked with might not even
30:21have a cmo we love it when there's a cmo um you know around and they can often like lead and help
30:28navigate and steer through um many components of this thinking do you find i'm sorry to interrupt but do
30:34you find that those come that there's any correlation between the chief executive of an enterprise with
30:41or without a cmo to their receptivity and and understanding of your thesis no i don't think so
30:48um but i'll think about that it's um i think that uh i think that market marketing people get energized
30:57by the process by pushing the influence of their the ideas that they're now connected to beyond just
31:05marketing right so it integrates them into the company in new in different ways don't you think
31:10that's a failure of marketers that that's even become it's really hard to break down some silos and
31:17there's in the in some of these big companies it's like stay in your lane but if the ceo is overseeing
31:22ultimately this then you know the people that make the product so you know sometimes don't work for
31:27the marketers right right so oftentimes right so so so so then these strategies or briefs that the the
31:34the the the cmo can often like like lead do make their way into briefing for product or capability
31:42expansion or you know technology so so the it's not that marketers don't want to do this it's just like
31:50but sometimes it's not the right context or that's why we keep talking about pushing and elevating
31:57the importance of brand to the ceo because they're responsible for everyone in the company right so if
32:02they really buy into an idea it's not just it doesn't just translate into what do we say but like
32:07what do we make and how we organized and who do we hire right when when at the very top of our
32:14conversation you talked um if i remember correctly you know that there's a perception sometimes
32:19oftentimes of brand is the logo the website the this the that it seems every chief executive
32:26at least theoretically is aware of the value of their own at the import of their own brand the
32:33corporate brand um and understand that to be more than a logo a website a ad campaign or is that not
32:41the case do they not see kind of before you come in they do they not understand that implicitly and
32:47really what i'm getting at is i just find there to be a a kind of a too often an absence of
32:54um uh the insight that comes from just our observation that just comes from your own lived
33:00experience like they don't want their brand to be their corporate name to be sullied so they certainly
33:05understand it from a negative perspective yeah i think again that's the difference between brand and
33:12reputation i think aren't they i mean i know that there's a whole practice area that's differentiating
33:17them but reputation and brand to me they're linked but they're not the same i agree with and so i think
33:22that um you know a lot of these companies it depends in what category and where i also get a lot of energy
33:30is where you have many of these world-class companies that are in these categories that
33:36people don't think like deserve to a degree a really strong brand right so things like
33:44processing companies infrastructure companies real estate um um enterprise software technology like
33:51these kinds of companies you have these incredible companies um but um the the idea of brand having an
33:59expansive and organizing role within is is not that commonplace yeah so i find that when we sit down
34:05with those companies they're all very smart people that when you like offer up what we're those are
34:11the companies they love working on and and and have had the most productive experiences with and
34:16and and and and are really receptive to using the work in a really instructive way which is
34:22because they're they're oftentimes perceived commodity products or services right real estate companies
34:32etc etc etc and it becomes a differentiator commodity maybe but it's just more of like it hasn't been
34:37a lever that they've had to pull in order to achieve success right right so it just hasn't necessarily
34:43been an area of focus yeah yeah right or their definition of brand is back to that like limited aperture
34:51right and so um so there have been there have been companies that we've worked with um that haven't
35:02thought that they needed it but when are exposed to how it could connect to their category um have shown
35:11appetite to do it so we're often working with companies that are doing this for the first time i think
35:16with consumer companies um there's just a lot more awareness and understanding and emphasis placed
35:23on brand for obvious reasons but we work with a bunch of consumer companies so you know we're working
35:29uh with with with airlines and with um credit card uh credit companies and with publishers and with
35:38um you know connected identity companies um but again in in that instance maybe
35:45karen we're coming at you for sponsorship dollars just so you know i won't give them your number
35:49uh but it's uh uh but but in that in that instance we're like even trying to
35:56provide new clarity and distillation and focus or extend it into different parts of the company that
36:05it's not currently influencing um talk to us about how you know and when you know and what timeline you know
36:14if the work that you and and your clients have done worked right great question um if it's in the
36:24pe backed um you know zone and we work with you know multiple firms in you know you're ultimately looking
36:33at um once the company's exited even though it's very hard to isolate the role um that this work could
36:44play into it um that's the ultimate measure is the company worth you know worth more and and um so at
36:50the highest level you can you know expect but no going into it okay this the thesis was the investment
36:57thesis showed can we turn this mechanical company into an energy transition company did it sell as an
37:04energy transition multiple can we say that brand played a role in guiding that transformation yes or
37:09you know so you can't really isolate it but what we can also do there are many steps along the way
37:15to prove that it can get that and often um you can measure how aligned is the company around why
37:21exists and what it needs to do next you can very clearly measure that you can also start to look at
37:29does the clarified often more purposeful positioning enable a um different tier of talent to want to come and
37:38work at this company which is actually which is actually measure very very measurable we can also
37:43start to look and measure are we more able to see what the next steps that a company needs to take
37:54around manifesting the vision that we've been aligned so there there is an efficiency to that or in the
38:01case of now that we're really clear around our repositioning to our customers or consumers
38:08is the marketing connected to those ideas working harder than the mark the the work that was not
38:15connected to those sets of ideas so there's lots of different altitudes from like did the you know
38:20did we get a successful exit much harder to isolate
38:25the role that this work could play in that but if if if people are on the bus then they believe it and
38:32you know they're either coming back to you to do this again or they're not right so right
38:36um so um you know most of the people that we've worked with it's it's it's been the way that
38:42we're growing is by fewer people just using us more i want to um as we get towards the end i want
38:49to ask you um a question about one of i i think she's your co-founder jenna is one of your co-founders
38:57partner she is our partner and um one of our executive creative directors and an absolute
39:02genius yeah i mean she's a genius i'm talking but i'm getting intervened here because
39:08what she's so amazing and she does and that's actually what i'm going to ask you which by the
39:12way sorry just we're going to talk about jenna lyons um for those who don't know so she um she does
39:19focus predominantly on fashion retail hospitality beauty anything connected to premiumization she is
39:27one premium cookie yeah um but she's got a decent track record she and and it's it's it's beyond like
39:34her her her eye and an ability to understand what good creative is because it's remarkable
39:40but where she is exceptional is because she has run a very big company she really knows how to track
39:50how the ideas are infusing into the company and how to bring the company along rationalize it
39:59excuse me how to operationalize it how to see when it's not tracking how to further translate it into a
40:06form that a different part of the business understands how to make sure that that's then
40:10tracking and being pulled through and then how to look at everything to see
40:16what the cumulative effect of it is is is is having on both the output and the culture so it's in and i
40:24think you can only really get that from once you've like run a big thing with lots of different
40:30people that can choose to be confused at any point how to not allow that and the whole choose
40:36to be confused thing is another sarah thompson ism that i always use this people are confused but
40:40they're choosing to be confused they can be you can't have organ rejection from anyone if you want
40:45this idea to right realize the the the value that it can really add and so um she's always the one
40:53saying guys this person this team we need to go back and rethink how it translates more clearly
40:59into a manifestation for them right which which takes me back and maybe it'll be a decent place
41:06to end what you were talking about as the question about kind of the cmo's role and sometimes you you
41:13made the app point it's sometimes you know there are silos here silos there the cmo may or may not
41:18be um connected to the process the outcomes the outputs to begin with uh one of the the um things i
41:27just have been thinking more and more about over the past few months is how org design oftentimes
41:33punches growth in the face right that it just if if if we are siloed and divisionalized then i'm
41:42working against my objectives not necessarily the company's objectives and in the kind of the nesting
41:47dolls of objective strategies and tactics my tactic becomes an objective and it's not in terms of moving
41:54the business forward do you have some macro thoughts thesis on kind of especially in a or orgs that are
42:03going to change as dramatically as so many will because of technology because of ai what what the
42:08org of the future might look like or or even said differently what the orgs who do the best job
42:16operationalizing fundamental coast thesis look like if there's a commonality yeah i mean that's a
42:24there's a lot there's a lot in there i think that the way
42:27that we think about it is once we're really clear again of the role of these ideas having a
42:37different seat at the table once we're really clear on what we are and what we're agreeing to become
42:46that idea is also used as a filter for how we organize ourselves internally around and what
42:55capabilities we need to have right does that wind up raising a bar so high that that it's like oh
43:01fuck how am i going to do all this like i not not necessarily i mean we're working um with one
43:07uh power company where you know there was a discussion around should a um look there's certain
43:16things that are beyond what we can consult around but but if we're trying to pull a different level of
43:23creativity within the experience there was a question around should a create a should a marketing
43:30cmo sit above um ahead of design and that's the kind of question of like here are the five reasons
43:39that might be a bad idea if you're trying to pull this kind of creativity through the company
43:45right so um so so but but but it's just a reminder to say this is what we're becoming
43:51looking at that as a filter for does it make sense for us to be organized like this or not
43:57right like and we're not um we we're we're not a change management organization but we pass and
44:04connect with the same ideas that are led by change management people and we think it should be
44:09um an input to helping define how the company is organized johnny bauer appreciate you thanks for
44:19being here thanks for having me and uh thanks for listening and uh watching on youtube everybody if
44:25you like the show and how could you not i mean with all due respect this is good johnny was great
44:30um i didn't get in his way that often smash that subscribe button give it all the stars you can
44:36we're we're just you know we're appreciating tim cut this out this part i'm just babbling at this point
44:43thanks everybody