On this episode of Forbes Talks, Breaking News Reporter Brittany Lewis, talks with Adam Minsky, a Forbes senior contributor, about President Trump's actions targeting the Public Service Loan Forgiveness program. Minsky addresses the Trump administration's claims that the program is being abused and misdirecting funds. He also touches on what student loan borrowers should should do as the program's future is uncertain but student loan obligations remain.
Read the full story on Forbes: https://www.forbes.com/sites/adamminsky/2025/03/10/what-trumps-new-student-loan-forgiveness-order-means-for-3-million-borrowers/
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0:00 Introduction
0:41 About The Public Loan Forgiveness Program: Here's What We Know
6:08 How Many Qualify For PSLF Program?
10:23 Will Student Loan Forgiveness Change Again?
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Read the full story on Forbes: https://www.forbes.com/sites/adamminsky/2025/03/10/what-trumps-new-student-loan-forgiveness-order-means-for-3-million-borrowers/
Subscribe to FORBES: https://www.youtube.com/user/Forbes?sub_confirmation=1
0:00 Introduction
0:41 About The Public Loan Forgiveness Program: Here's What We Know
6:08 How Many Qualify For PSLF Program?
10:23 Will Student Loan Forgiveness Change Again?
Fuel your success with Forbes. Gain unlimited access to premium journalism, including breaking news, groundbreaking in-depth reported stories, daily digests and more. Plus, members get a front-row seat at members-only events with leading thinkers and doers, access to premium video that can help you get ahead, an ad-light experience, early access to select products including NFT drops and more:
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Stay Connected
Forbes newsletters: https://newsletters.editorial.forbes.com
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Forbes Video on Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/forbes
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More From Forbes: http://forbes.com
Forbes covers the intersection of entrepreneurship, wealth, technology, business and lifestyle with a focus on people and success.
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LifestyleTranscript
00:00Hi, everybody. I'm Brittany Lewis, a breaking news reporter here at Forbes. Joining me now
00:07is Forbes senior contributor Adam Minsky. Adam, thanks so much for joining me.
00:13Thanks for having me, Brittany.
00:15It seems like in his second term, President Trump really has his sight set on both the
00:20Department of Education as well as student loan forgiveness. As the expert in the space,
00:25I would love for you to explain what exactly is going on. So to start off the conversation,
00:30last week, President Trump signed into action targeting the Public Service Loan Forgiveness
00:34Program, known as the PSLF. To start off the conversation, what does this program do?
00:41So Public Service Loan Forgiveness, or PSLF, is a program that was created through bipartisan
00:47legislation in 2007 under President George W. Bush that allows borrowers to receive federal
00:54loan forgiveness after 10 years of qualifying payments while working for certain nonprofit
01:01or government organizations. It's designed to incentivize folks to work in fields that
01:06are traditionally high need. You need an advanced degree, but you might be paid significantly
01:11less than what you would be paid in an equivalent position in the private sector. And it's designed
01:16to get people to work into those roles.
01:19And who exactly are these borrowers? Who qualifies? What are those roles?
01:25Yeah, so it's many types of nonprofit and government organizations. So teachers, nurses,
01:31doctors, public interest attorneys, you know, firefighters, folks who work for the military,
01:38state and local and federal government employees, people who make our country run, basically,
01:45are those folks who stand to benefit most from these programs.
01:48You noted that Congress or Congress established the PSLF program in 2007. We know that George
01:56W. Bush, a Republican, was president at the time. You said it received bipartisan support.
02:02So what happened between 2007 and 2025 when a Republican president isn't too happy with
02:08it?
02:09Well, I think that just like many other issues in the country, unfortunately, everything's
02:15just gotten more polarized. And I think that, you know, the reality is, you know, everything
02:20now seems to either have one side, you know, supporting it on the other side doesn't. I
02:26do think that to some extent, this is kind of a backlash to what President Biden tried
02:30to do during his term, where he tried to enact some fixes to public service loan forgiveness
02:36and some other programs to make them more accessible to correct historical problems
02:41that prevented people from accessing it. But he also tried to enact separate mass debt
02:45cancellation programs that were, you know, very, you know, polarizing and invited some
02:51degree of backlash.
02:53I want to read some of the language from the action that was signed on March 7th. It's
02:58entitled Restoring Public Service Loan Forgiveness. And I would love to get your thoughts. This
03:03is what President Trump said in the action, quote, The prior administration abused the
03:07PSLF program, and that it, quote, misdirected tax dollars into activist organizations that
03:13not only fail to serve the public interest, but actually harm our national security and
03:17American values, sometimes through criminal means. The PSLF program also creates perverse
03:22incentives that can increase the cost of tuition, can load students into low need majors with
03:27unsustainable debt, and may push students into organizations that hide under the umbrella
03:32of a nonprofit designation and degrade our national interest. As an attorney and the
03:37student loan space as an expert in the subject, is what President Trump wrote in here true?
03:44I don't think so. I mean, I work with hundreds of clients, hundreds of borrowers every year.
03:49I've not met a single person who is engaging or their organization is engaging in some
03:54sort of criminal behavior. These are by and large good people who are trying to do the
03:59right thing, who are repaying their loans. And many of them took positions in lower paying
04:05jobs working for these nonprofit or government employers because they believe in the mission,
04:10they want to give back. But in order to get these roles, you often have to have an advanced
04:16degree that requires student loan debt if you can't pay out of pocket. And this program
04:20is designed to incentivize people to do exactly that. And so I think by and large, these are
04:26good people trying to do good things.
04:29You wrote about the action for Forbes. You said that the language in the action was vague.
04:34What exactly is in the action? What is President Trump specifically targeting in the PSLF program?
04:41Yeah, so what President Trump is trying to do is remove from PSLF eligibility organizations
04:49that engage in certain types of conduct. And, you know, he provides some categories of conduct
04:55that could be suspect under the order. This includes, you know, any organization that
05:02is, you know, running afoul of immigration laws or facilitating running afoul of immigration
05:07laws. You know, this could be read very broadly to include basically any immigration rights
05:13organization or any organization that does any work with immigrants. There's language
05:18in there that references child abuse. But the words child abuse is only used in the
05:24context of providing health care to transgender youth. And that could easily be read to cover
05:31any organization that, you know, that supports or offers LGBT rights or fights for the rights
05:38of transgender people. So, you know, those organizations could be swept up into that.
05:44There's a category for what they refer to as illegal discrimination, which could easily
05:48be read to include any organization, including possibly even state and local governments
05:53that support DEI efforts. You know, there's some concern that this essentially amounts
05:58to what's called viewpoint discrimination, which could run afoul of the First Amendment
06:03if it's basically penalizing organizations based on their stance.
06:09Millions of borrowers benefit from the PSLF program. So will this impact all of them?
06:14Because as you're saying, the nature of the language is very broad. And will this impact
06:19be felt immediately?
06:22It probably will not be felt immediately. So under the statute that created PSLF, there's
06:28no mechanism for a president to alter the terms of the program. So what the president
06:37actually does in the executive order is he directs the Department of Education to create
06:41regulations that implement the substance of that order. Going through that regulatory
06:47process where you draft new rules is a long, complicated process that takes at least a
06:52year, often longer. So this is not going to go into effect anytime soon. Many student
06:59borrower advocacy organizations have threatened legal challenges over this. If it does go
07:03into effect, whether it's directly through an order or through regulations, because again,
07:07the statute governing PSLF doesn't really provide this type of wiggle room where whole
07:12categories of organizations that qualify can be excluded based on certain types of activities.
07:18So, you know, this is going to probably be a long process where rules have to be drafted
07:22and then those rules could be challenged in court.
07:25You and I talked at length about student loan forgiveness during the Biden administration,
07:30the actions he tried to put forth, as well as the legal hurdles they faced. You're saying
07:36that this action could suffer the same fate legally. Is that correct?
07:42That's correct. I mean, there is some degree of irony here where, you know, former President
07:46Biden was often accused of going above and beyond what the statute actually provided
07:51when he tried to expand relief for student loan borrowers. But that same argument could
07:56be applied here in this context as well.
07:59And so if I'm a borrower right now that benefits from the PSLF program, I'm confused reading
08:05this. I'm wondering, hey, am I going to be on the hook for that money? That kind of was
08:08a promise that I paid back 10 years and then the rest is absolved. What what what should
08:14they be thinking right now? What should they be doing?
08:18You know, the reality is that there's not much borrowers can do right now, you know,
08:23because this this process has to basically play out, you know, continue to certify your
08:27employment, continue to make qualifying payments. You know, the program is here for now. And
08:33the only thing that we can really do is kind of just, you know, see how things play out.
08:38You know, there could also be legislative changes to PSLF, you know, and there's some
08:43indication that Congress is considering some sort of changes to PSLF through the legislative
08:47process. So the other thing that folks can do is contact your your your reps in Congress
08:53and ask them to preserve the PSLF program.
08:56And more broadly, the Department of Education was established in 1979 under President Jimmy
09:02Carter. There are reports now that in President Trump's second term, he could be thinking
09:08he's mulling over signing an executive order that would dismantle the Department of
09:12Education. If I'm a borrower, if I have student loan debt, what does that mean for me?
09:19So just like with PSLF, the Department of Education was created through legislation
09:23passed by Congress, and it would take an act of Congress to actually fully dismantle the
09:27U.S. Department of Education.
09:28That's not something that can really be done through an executive order.
09:32If the Department of Ed was reduced or dismantled, what would likely happen is the
09:37Office of Federal Student Aid, which handles the federal student loan system, would
09:41simply be moved over to a different federal department, most likely the U.S.
09:45Department of Treasury.
09:46But that likely would require an act of Congress, and it's unclear if that would happen.
09:50That being said, the Department of Education is already being undermined from within
09:55through staffing cuts, funding cuts.
09:58And so the operations of the Department of Education can be greatly reduced and diminished
10:02even without fully dismantling it.
10:04And that can have very profound impacts for millions of student loan borrowers that can
10:09lead to longer processing times.
10:10Call centers might close or have reduced hours or longer call hold times.
10:15There could be more errors, more delays, you know, including for public service loan
10:20forgiveness. So this can have very serious impacts.
10:23I think based on this conversation that it is a confusing time for borrowers, and I
10:28always ask you if you could leave our viewers with a takeaway.
10:32What is your biggest piece of advice for student loan borrowers?
10:35Try to stay on top of these changes as best as you can.
10:37Make your payments on time.
10:38These student loans are not going anywhere, regardless of what happens with the
10:42Department of Education. These loans are here.
10:45So the best that folks can do is try to stay on top of these developments.
10:49Make your payments. Look into your options.
10:51Do your best to kind of muddle through the mess that we're currently in.
10:55Adam Minsky, per usual, I always appreciate your expertise.
10:58Thank you so much for joining me.
11:01Thanks for having me.
11:05Adam Minsky, per usual, I appreciate your expertise.
11:06Thanks for having me.