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00:00You were listening to Ukraine's President Vladimir Zelensky speak following his meeting with the Turkish president.
00:08Zelensky said that Ukraine's defense minister would be leading those face-to-face talks with the Russians over in Istanbul.
00:17Now, their mandate will be to secure a ceasefire in Ukraine.
00:22We can now bring in Muriel Dominak, who was the French ambassador to NATO between 2019 and 2024.
00:29Who was listening to Vladimir Zelensky with me.
00:33Now, you know, there was so much buzz this week whether Vladimir Putin would show up or not show up after he suggested these direct negotiations in Istanbul.
00:44You are a diplomat. You know how these things work.
00:48Is it not normal to start with technical teams, especially when two countries are at war?
00:54Well, the first thing is to show up and it's a no-show.
00:59So, Putin is not showing up in Istanbul.
01:04Zelensky played it pretty smart.
01:09He was smart enough in taking President Trump at his word, in taking President Putin at his word,
01:16in saying, you know, I'm a strong man, I'm prepared to come and have discussions based on a sequence, a ceasefire first,
01:28that Europeans, together with Americans, helped him, you know, figure out and now it's on the table.
01:37And it's for Putin now to, you know, enter the sequence of discussions.
01:44And obviously, he's not prepared to.
01:47But we have Russia's former culture minister, I believe, who will be leading the Russian side, the Russian delegation.
01:54The fact that these two sides who have been at war for over three years now, the fact that they're going to be in the same room,
02:00that is still a positive, isn't it?
02:02Even though Vladimir Putin may not be there?
02:05Not only is Vladimir Putin not showing up.
02:09Sergey Lavrov isn't, I know.
02:11It's not Lavrov that's coming.
02:13It's not Ushakov.
02:15Those men are the men in charge.
02:17It's Medinsky.
02:18Medinsky and Medinsky in the Russian system is not just a nobody.
02:23He was the man that headed the Istanbul talks back in 2022, talks that led to an impasse, a dead end.
02:35Why?
02:36Because of the three traps that were involved in this sequence.
02:43One, that no ceasefire was part of the discussion.
02:50So basically, the Ukrainians were discussing under actual threat.
02:56Two, that the talks did not include anything on territories.
03:04It just, you know, referred to discussing territories again in 10 years.
03:10And three, and that's a key thing, because those discussions involved demilitarization and sort of denazification, as the Russians put it, of Ukraine.
03:23So those formed sort of a dead end that would be a danger today.
03:30So that Putin not only did not show up, but also that it's Medinsky that headed the former discussions and a propagandist of Soviet Ukraine.
03:42Medinsky was born in Ukraine.
03:44He's a hoax, a nationalist that amplified the Russian narrative on that notion that there is no such thing as Ukraine.
03:54It was a creation from the Austrian Empire is showing that Putin is not truly involved in whatever President Trump expected him to engage.
04:09Let's talk about the U.S. President Donald Trump, because he said that nothing's going to happen in Ukraine until he himself meets with Vladimir Putin.
04:18That's what Donald Trump said today.
04:27Well, nothing is going to happen unless Russia is prepared to deviate from its initial objectives in this war that have proven impossible.
04:40One, and that's what Russia calls the root causes of the war, you know, the Karenyi Prichini, the root causes of the war being, one, NATO enlargement, two, a free, sovereign and democratic Ukraine.
05:00Russia has not moved from these initial objectives of, you know, questioning those developments for Ukraine and an enlarged NATO.
05:16So as long as Russia is not going to move from that, it's not going to be a genuine peace process.
05:22But given that Donald Trump and members of his cabinet have openly said the reality of Ukraine joining NATO is unrealistic, given that shift in stance from Washington, do you think that would be more palatable for the Russians now, even though nothing is put in on paper?
05:45NATO's enlargement to Ukraine was not the subject.
05:47It was NATO's previous enlargement that Russia is willing to question.
05:54So the root causes, as the Russians put it, are NATO's enlargement.
06:01I mean, the current security order on our continent that Russia is willing to challenge.
06:08And two, a free and democratic Ukraine, yes, free to choose its own security arrangements that, by the way, Russia itself recognized in 1990 at the Paris meeting of the OSCE.
06:25So the perspective of Ukraine joining NATO was always a perspective.
06:31It's not on the table now.
06:33It's for Russia now to show preparedness to enter a discussion based on the sequence that Europeans have set up together with the Ukrainians and the Americans.
06:47Now, the silver lining in this is that the Europeans are back in the game after Trump took office, Europeans showed stunned.
06:58Are they back in the game?
06:59Because Donald Trump thinks that nothing will happen without him meeting without him meeting Russia's president.
07:05So, again, once again, I feel that Washington is sidelining Europe.
07:09Washington is showing impatience, and they should.
07:15I mean, to a certain extent, Putin has not been playing fairly.
07:21So Trump's comments, I would hear as, you know, he's bringing pressure again, which the Americans are prepared to do together with Europeans,
07:35with that, you know, plan to reinstall sanctions, especially on the Russian Phantom fleet, if Russia does not enter serious discussions.
07:45So Trump's comments, I would take as an increased pressure on Putin that he has to deviate from his initial objectives.
07:55But no matter what, nothing is going to happen on Ukraine and European security without Ukraine, the Ukrainian president and the Europeans.
08:09And I think that's where the Europeans managed to sort of swim against the tides, you know, and be back in the game.
08:17In after that terrible scene in the Oval Office, in helping, you know, Zelensky to handle the American president,
08:27showing preparedness for a ceasefire that Russia and Russia only is refusing today.
08:33Because we've since that Oval Office disaster of a meeting, we've had Europe who Paris and London specifically,
08:41who've been creating this coalition of the willing.
08:44But Donald Trump has been a bit more elusive on what role the Americans will play.
08:49But Europe always says, whenever Europe speaks, that it is in consultation with Washington.
08:55So what are you hearing on that front?
08:57It's truly in consultation with the Americans.
08:59You could see the four European leaders in Kiev last weekend, you know, calling their American counterpart
09:07and bringing a serious security offer to Ukraine if we end up striking a deal.
09:18So Europeans have managed to, one, support Zelensky in offering, you know, a sequence.
09:26Two, they've succeeded in offering serious security guarantees that obviously are agreeable to the Americans.
09:38And yes, I think they're back in the game at the table.
09:43It's up now for...
09:45You think at the table?
09:46Well, it's a virtual table.
09:49There's many tables.
09:49I mean, there's three meetings taking place today in Turkey.
09:53One is in Istanbul, technical discussions.
10:00One is in Antalya with a NATO minister's meeting.
10:05And one is in Ankara with Zelensky meeting with Erdogan.
10:11We heard Zelensky's comments.
10:13And I think that a third man is entering the game, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, is good news for Zelensky.
10:25Zelensky, with European support, has managed to gather support from different leaders.
10:32We've seen President Lula from Brazil calling President Putin to try and convince him to fly to Istanbul.
10:41We're seeing now that President Erdogan, also for internal reasons, is keen to help strike a deal.
10:51So that's sort of win in Zelensky's back.
10:55You heard there from Vladimir Zelensky that he's calling for more sanctions on Russia.
11:01And this is something that European leaders have been threatening all this week after that ceasefire never got imposed.
11:06But honestly speaking, have sanctions really worked, considering that we have had this war that has gone on for so long now, over three years?
11:16When the war first broke out, I remember Ursula von der Leyen coming out with these rafts of sanctions.
11:21We've even sanctioned Russian oligarchs thinking that would influence Putin's thinking.
11:25That didn't happen.
11:26We had the former U.S. President Joe Biden who said he's going to turn the ruble into rubble.
11:31That didn't happen.
11:32So realistically, are sanctions the way to go about it?
11:36Shouldn't more of a push be put on the diplomatic front?
11:41I assume diplomats are doing both.
11:48Because up until now they weren't talking really.
11:50Until Donald Trump came back into the picture, diplomats were not talking.
11:53But Russia is not winning on the ground.
11:56Even with, you know, the Ukrainian army suffering, the Ukrainians are managing to do a good job, you know, on the ground.
12:09They are waging a drone war.
12:11They are losing less people on the ground.
12:13The Russians are not doing so well.
12:14I mean, it's like the Russians initially thought they would seize Kiev in three days, even deployed, you know, as they entered Ukraine.
12:26Parade troops like la Garde Républicaine, lightly armed in Kiev.
12:32They're not making it.
12:35They're not making it.
12:36So, again, Putin underestimated, overestimated Russia, his army.
12:44He underestimated Ukraine.
12:46He downplayed Europeans and allied unity.
12:50And I think he's doing that just again.
12:53He fell in the trap he tried to set to Zelensky.
12:58And he's now on the defensive, you know, trying to argue that he's prepared for talks.
13:09But, again, his initial objectives have not changed.
13:12You mentioned that now Ukraine's NATO membership is not on the table.
13:16But yet we have European leaders like the British Prime Minister, Keir Starmer, who said just a few weeks ago that Ukraine is on an irreversible path to joining NATO.
13:29Given that NATO gets its marching orders from Washington, do statements like these give Ukraine false hope?
13:38Well, I think it's key that Europeans act as adults.
13:45And, yes, from the U.K.'s perspective, as we hear from Keir Starmer, from the French perspective, I assume, you know, it's key that we speak as adults based on our own security interests.
14:06Obviously, for Europeans, our security is being played in Ukraine.
14:13We have to be at the table.
14:14And, yes, it's our interest that Ukraine joins NATO.
14:17So it's only legitimate that Europeans express their positions in this respect.
14:24Now, we are realists.
14:27I've served at NATO a long time.
14:30I know for sure that as much as you can resist, especially if you're a French diplomat, to U.S. pressure at NATO, if the U.S. expresses that something is not on the table, it's not at the table for the moment.
14:49Now, from a European perspective, yes, Ukraine's path to NATO is irreversible.
14:56And I think it's only legitimate that this is voiced.
15:00And if your question is, is that a provocation to Russia?
15:05Because you were a former French ambassador to NATO, I have to ask, you know, a couple of years ago, we had the French ambassador who made some controversial comments on NATO where he called it brain dead.
15:21And Emmanuel Macron made those comments.
15:23And just from your perspective, being French ambassador to NATO, has the body of the military alliance woken up?
15:31And what are the challenges under Donald Trump's presidency?
15:34Huge challenges, obviously.
15:38Huge.
15:39There's a trust issue.
15:42But every cloud has a silver lining, right?
15:45The silver lining is that Europeans are now prepared to take a greater share in our own security.
15:54They are playing collective.
15:56There as well, Europeans, as stunned as they were initially when President Trump took office,
16:03are now, you know, playing fast, smoothly, and collective.
16:12We've seen the four main European leaders traveling to Kiev, showing unity with President Zelensky.
16:20We've seen the Russian reaction to that.
16:23We've seen a massive disinformation campaign here in France with, you know.
16:30On the train?
16:30Oh, wow.
16:31On that, you know, train.
16:34The picture with Macron.
16:35Yeah, I mean, that's obviously connected to…
16:37It was a tissue paper, right?
16:39Right, of course.
16:40It's a tissue.
16:41And the Elysée made, you know, a smart response.
16:45This is a tissue.
16:47This is European unity.
16:48And obviously, the Russians are reacting to this show of European unity in support to Ukraine.
16:56So, it's a fantasy.
16:58I mean, I saw that video and I could tell it was tissue paper.
17:00So, I don't know what they would…
17:01Anyone could say it's a tissue paper.
17:03I mean, it was a total joke.
17:06So, anyway, the good news for the transatlantic alliance is that Europeans are now prepared to do more for their own security, spend more of their defense, rearm.
17:20The commission has issued a serious plan to rearm, and that's only in the interest of stronger alliance if the two components, you know, show a greater force.
17:33So, the silver lining is that the Europeans are prepared to do more.
17:38The other silver lining is the Europeans have learned to handle President Trump and have empowered and supported President Zelensky in doing so.
17:53So, I wouldn't be so pessimistic as to the transatlantic alliance.
18:00But, yes, challenges I would recognize, of course.
18:03The challenges, but there are silver lining.
18:05Madam Ambassador, thank you so much for coming in and speaking to us on the program today.