Alan Pattullo chats to Ex Footballer Duncan Ferguson
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00:00Hello, I'm Alan Patullo, football writer for the Scotsman, here on a very special assignment tonight at the Marr Hall Hotel.
00:10Duncan Ferguson is about to launch his new autobiography, The Upfront Autobiography, Big Dunk, written in conjunction with Henry Winter.
00:23Quite exciting for me because a few years back, quite a few years back, I wrote my own book about Duncan Ferguson called In Search of Duncan Ferguson.
00:33It came out in 2014, can you believe it, just after the World Cup, I recall, in Brazil. Seems a long time ago.
00:42This is my notebook in which I filled all my little workings out and my assignments and who I was hoping to interview in the course of researching this book.
00:56The first interview that I did for it, I see here, I put the date down, the 12th of the 6, 08, so in 2008, Jim McLean, legendary manager of Dundee United,
01:10I sat down with him to try and get to the heart of the Duncan Ferguson story, who really did fascinate me for many, many years and still does, hence why I'm here.
01:23I'm looking forward to actually sitting down with him for the first time. My book, as I showed you, was In Search of Duncan Ferguson.
01:31I never actually did sit down with him while compiling the book. I kind of thought I would, but by the end I thought it didn't really matter.
01:41I'd managed to collate enough information, I'd spoken to so many people, went slightly crazy to be honest, even found myself on a plane to Helsinki to interview a composer, Osmo, my friend Osmo,
01:57who wrote a symposium called Barlinnie Nine about Duncan Ferguson, obviously referencing Duncan's time in Barlinnie Jail for a headbutt while playing for Rangers against Wraith Rovers in 1994.
02:15And I think really when it comes down to it, that was what sparked my absolute fascination for Duncan, how an incident that lasted a few seconds on a football pitch would leave such a lasting impression on a young man just in his early 20s at the time, not just him but also Jock McStay, who was the other protagonist in that incident.
02:36So here I am, many, many years later, and I'm looking forward to sitting down with Duncan, looking forward to maybe giving him a copy of my book. He says he hasn't read it, and that's fair enough, but I've enjoyed his book and let's see what he has to say for himself.
02:52Seven years ago this book came out, In Search of Duncan Ferguson. Yesterday this book came out, Big Dunk, The Upfront Autobiography. Very good. I finally tracked down Duncan Ferguson after many years, and we're about to have, well, first time a proper interview with Duncan. I'm looking forward to it.
03:12Thanks very much for having me, Alan. A long time in the making, I take it, isn't it?
03:15It is. I said in the first couple of pages, the reason I wrote it was because I thought you deserved another hearing, and it was. I like to think it was a fair account.
03:25Your front cover's definitely better than mine.
03:27I don't know. No, I love that. It's a good front cover, and it's a good title too. Who came up with it?
03:35Rachel.
03:36Rachel, yeah. Well, it's fantastic.
03:38Upfront. I didn't like it. Upfront. It's nice, but at the end of the day, I'm known as Big Dunk, ain't I?
03:43Yeah, yeah, yeah.
03:44It's like Big Sam, or Big Dunk.
03:46I know, I know. Well, I like what you just said there about going down to London, walking, suddenly people, Dunk, you know, taxi drivers, oh, Duncan, I saw you.
03:53I know, I know.
03:54I know.
03:55Amazing.
03:56But you've become currency, public currency now in terms of you're everywhere, very different. When I first started researching this book, and you were very much not speaking to the press.
04:06Yeah.
04:07Then when I actually started writing it, you were in Majorca.
04:10Yeah.
04:11What was the thinking there, and did you imagine coming back to get involved?
04:15No speaking to the press.
04:17Well, not just that, but why did you go to Majorca, why?
04:20Right, okay, I went to Majorca because I'd been, I retired at 34, last game, ridiculous, it's crazy.
04:27I got offered two other clubs, one was Wigan in Portsmouth, spoke to the two managers at the time, Paul Jewel and Harry Redknapp, I think.
04:35They offered me good contracts to continue playing, but I wanted to remember myself as an Everton player.
04:42I felt as if Everton was at the top, and Wigan and Portsmouth were a bit below that, even though they were in the Premier League, and getting double my wages.
04:50Yeah, yeah.
04:51But I decided to, I wasn't the same player.
04:54No, no.
04:55I was getting a bit more angrier, and I wasn't the same player.
04:59Yeah.
05:00And I went to the manager, around about Christmas time, David Moyes, and said to him, look, this is not working out for me, I'm not the same player as I was.
05:09He said to me, monitor, oh monitor at the end of the season, and we did, and I wasn't the same player.
05:14So that's one of the reasons why I retired.
05:16There was no point in me going to Wigan, which I could have been playing, but I wasn't the same player, and I wanted people to remember me as a good player.
05:23Yeah, yeah.
05:24And connected to Everton.
05:25I went to Everton, I went to meet Slough, and then, I was in the Liverpool area, your fans are coming up to you, I was young, and I thought, you know what, I'm going to try and take a wee break, and see if the kids were young.
05:39The kids were young at the time, so they were just starting kindergarten school, they were just starting nursery.
05:44And I thought, you know what, why don't we make a wee break for that, and try it, so we did.
05:51I was at Everton for about four years.
05:53Enjoyed it for the first year.
05:54Yeah.
05:55Great.
05:56Beach was fantastic, swimming pool, the food's lovely, the wine's nice.
06:01And in the end, you're not even looking at the beach mate, you're not even looking at that.
06:04No.
06:05This all becomes a school run, or just becomes a normal.
06:08Did you find, did you miss the roar of the crowd, did you miss the adoration?
06:15Duncan, if you remember, obviously you were given the, what was it, the hero, you came back, Everton hero, you came back for that, do you remember?
06:23Yeah, the Giants.
06:24But it was a kind of unofficial one.
06:26Unofficial, the fans one.
06:27The fans one, the Gladys Sturridge one.
06:28You were there?
06:29I was there.
06:30Fantastic.
06:31I came down for that, and my goodness.
06:32That was incredible.
06:33It was just the love, the love, and I thought, how can you, you'd not felt that for so long, and to come back into that environment.
06:39Yeah, it was amazing that night.
06:42The fans had never changed, they'd never changed in 20 odd years.
06:44I mean, what is it, I went to 22, it's 30 years.
06:46Yeah.
06:47It's 30 years since I went down there, and I still get on fantastic with them.
06:51They still love me, I still love them.
06:53That night was special.
06:54Yeah.
06:55It was an incredible night.
06:56We had a night like that the other night there, 800 people sold out.
07:00Yeah, I saw that.
07:01But back then, you know, yeah, it was great.
07:04The people of Liverpool, all the people of Liverpool being fantastic to me.
07:07Yeah, yeah.
07:08I've never had any real trouble in the city.
07:11I know most of the fans.
07:13I know most of them.
07:15Everton have not got a big fan base.
07:16We've got 30,000, 40,000 people that go to the game.
07:19Yes, outside that, but most of your fans walk to the ground.
07:22So those season tickets are within the area.
07:24I know most of the families.
07:26Yeah, yeah.
07:27I've knocked on the door one time or another, I've bought them a drink one time or another.
07:30You know, I went to visit them or something like that, so I know all the families in Liverpool.
07:35And that certainly connects you to the area.
07:38I remember that night, going back to that same night at the Adelphi.
07:41God, I have such vivid memories of it, Duncan.
07:43I was sitting there with my, you know, I didn't really know anybody.
07:47I'm not an Everton fan, and I was there just to observe you.
07:51And you came out with, you stood up and off the cuff speech, I take it.
07:55Yeah.
07:56That great line about, you know, you forget the rest.
07:59I might have played for Dundee United.
08:01I might have played for Newcastle Rangers.
08:04But once you play for Everton, you forget the rest.
08:06It's almost poetic.
08:07Yeah, yeah.
08:08I think they still use that quote.
08:10They do, they do.
08:12And that's what Everton became.
08:14That's what Everton meant to me.
08:16Because that's where I had my success as well, remember.
08:18You know, that's probably where I played my best football.
08:20Other than maybe my first few years at Dundee United.
08:23Rangers never went well for me.
08:25So that's where I felt I belonged in the end.
08:28In the city, and the fans were so good to me.
08:30And of course, that's where I played my best football.
08:32So, that's where all my best memories are.
08:34And you do forget the things that you fail at.
08:37You want to push it to the side, don't you?
08:39So, when I went down south, I actually forgot about my Scottish career.
08:43Up in Scotland.
08:44I never even thought about it really.
08:46Because maybe you're just trying to forget because you weren't quite successful there.
08:49And you're moving down south and I was more successful there.
08:53I was finding my feet much more.
08:55I was maturing.
08:56I was becoming a better player.
08:58As you get older, you get a bit better, don't you?
09:00A bit more wiser.
09:01Totally.
09:02You mentioned, obviously, Dundee United.
09:04That's when I was first watched you.
09:06Yeah.
09:07Throwing pies at me.
09:08Watched you.
09:09I felt it that night.
09:11That midweek night, yeah.
09:12Dundee took the lead.
09:13You were on the terraces, weren't you?
09:15Yeah, it was terraces.
09:16The way end at Tanner Dyson.
09:18Billy Dodds put Dundee ahead, if you remember.
09:20No.
09:21And United came back and scored three goals.
09:23One of which was your great, sort of a trademark header.
09:27But you say, you talk about Dundee United there.
09:29You also say in your book, a very enjoyable book,
09:32that you don't look back at Dundee United.
09:34You don't look back at the goals.
09:36Is that right?
09:37That's right, aye.
09:38I mean, to be fair, maybe it's just new.
09:40Because I'm thinking, you know what?
09:41Because I've come up to Scotland.
09:43Because I've come up to Scotland to manage.
09:45But I've been down south for 30 years.
09:47Yeah, yeah.
09:48No, I've been up in Scotland for 22 years.
09:50Yeah, yeah.
09:51So I never have really thought about Dundee United or Rangers.
09:55That's going back to what I've just said.
09:57So I never looked at any of the goals.
09:58I just kind of washed it away.
10:00Well, you know, that's gone. I'm cracked.
10:02And I just saw myself as an Everton player.
10:04I've never really looked at any Newcastle goals.
10:06And maybe because, again, I never scored many.
10:08I wasnae fit.
10:09So, you know, there weren't any great times for me at some of the clubs.
10:12Yeah, yeah.
10:13So, yeah.
10:14But United was the breakthrough.
10:17Yeah, exactly.
10:18Jim McLean.
10:19A lot to thank them for, you know.
10:20Totally, totally.
10:21And I'm fascinated by, again, you write very well about Jim McLean.
10:24You know, Jim McLean was the first interview I did when I was researching my book on you.
10:28When I sat down with Jim McLean, 2008, in his house in Broughty Ferry.
10:32You might have been there yourself at some stage.
10:34No, I never ever got invited to his house.
10:36No, not once.
10:38I don't think I've ever got invited to sit down either.
10:41Well, I can imagine.
10:42I can imagine.
10:43But he seemed to have mellowed.
10:44He seemed to have mellowed towards you.
10:45And I don't know if you've mellowed towards him at all.
10:48Obviously, you know, sadly passed away a few years back.
10:50Yeah.
10:51You know, did he have a part in your career?
10:56And do you have a lot to thank him for?
10:58Of course he did.
10:59He was a big part of my career.
11:01Obviously, that part I told you what you just said, touching and scoring that goal.
11:04We'd worked on that all week.
11:06About me linking the play and spinning to the back post.
11:08And I took that through my whole career.
11:10There's two bits of information I've took it through my whole career.
11:14When I was a young kid, I used to wait for the ball coming up to me.
11:17Wait for it.
11:18Then the centre-backs would sneak in in front of me and take it away.
11:20And my dad said to me, you need to move towards the wall.
11:23Move towards it.
11:24So that was the first bit of good information I got.
11:26Yeah, I need to be on my toes and get towards the ball quicker.
11:29Stop these guys getting in front of me.
11:31And me, Jim McLean, spinning the back post.
11:34Get coming in that back stick between the centre-backs and the full-backs.
11:37You'll destroy them, you know.
11:38And that's the two bits of information that I remember going through my career.
11:41All these coaching points.
11:44That was two of them.
11:46Obviously, Jim McLean was a big part of that.
11:48I don't think anybody would ever say that he was a poor coach, football man.
11:52He was a good football, intelligent man who was probably ahead of his time.
11:57I was worried I was going to make it because I was too slow.
12:00I was really slow.
12:02So I could have been a gym day.
12:03He got me a sprint coach.
12:05So on a Tuesday night, if I wasn't in trouble,
12:08I would be training with a sprint coach.
12:11So that was going back.
12:14Thirty-odd years, 35 years.
12:16Going back with a sprint coach then.
12:18That was Jim for you.
12:19He saw something he didn't like.
12:20Obviously, he liked me and he wanted to help me.
12:22So he had me in sprint coach.
12:24There were a few years I did the sprinting, but you know.
12:27It was ahead of his time.
12:28I was about to say that. He was ahead of his time.
12:29Ahead of his time.
12:30Not ahead of his time, possibly, in man management, in terms of player welfare.
12:34A lot of players, not just you.
12:37I spoke to a lot of players in that time.
12:39And obviously, they all had their own run-ins with Jim.
12:42Possibly, I would suggest, you were the one that almost broke him.
12:46Because he walked away from football shortly after you left.
12:50He couldn't handle me.
12:51To be honest, he couldn't handle me.
12:53I was a bit different, I think.
12:56Look, he wasn't very nice to me.
12:58I gave him a lot of problems.
13:00I wasn't Snow White, no way.
13:02I may have done a lot of stupid, daft things that young kids do.
13:06But he wasn't nice to me.
13:08He was a bit of a bully to his team.
13:11But I didn't like it. I didn't like that.
13:15And to be honest with you, I didn't like him.
13:18I didn't like him.
13:19I respected him, but I didn't like him.
13:21Because he was a tyrant.
13:22And I didn't like him.
13:25I went up to Dunne United to become a football player.
13:27Yes, we got into a wee bit of problems.
13:29But the way he run that club, wasn't he nice?
13:33And I'm sure there's a lot of players that would say the same.
13:35But in football terms, he helped me a lot.
13:38Some great players say the same thing.
13:40Absolutely.
13:41Not just you, Eamon Bannon.
13:42I live near Eamon in Edinburgh.
13:44He's similar regards.
13:47I think when you're shouting down the phone to women,
13:49and they're crying their eyes out like my mum was, right?
13:52Things like that.
13:53And then if you're taking money off families,
13:56and the wife's got to come to the Tanadise and pleading for her money,
13:59because she's got two kids hanging about her neck,
14:01and they cannae pay the mortgage.
14:03And the wives are coming up to Tanadise to ask for their money and that.
14:06That, to me, that's not nice, is it?
14:09One of the quotes that, again, Jim McLean said,
14:12I use it in my book.
14:14I think you might have used it in yours as well.
14:16Jim McLean said, you know,
14:17trouble with me, as in he's talking about himself, is I care.
14:20I care too much about football.
14:21The trouble with you, Duncan, is you don't care enough.
14:24Is that fair?
14:26I think that's absolutely crap, to be honest with you.
14:29Absolutely rubbish.
14:30I mean, what on earth does that even mean?
14:32I think as a manager, you do care a lot.
14:34I've been as a manager, remember.
14:36And you have got everything on your shoulders.
14:39It's not easy to be a manager.
14:41So he would be managing 24-7.
14:44You can imagine trying to manage the group that we were up there.
14:47We were wild.
14:48Do you know what I mean?
14:49We were wild.
14:50We were nuts.
14:51God, we must have kept him up at night.
14:54But when you're a manager, you're managing the whole thing, aren't you?
14:57And at that point of view, as a manager, yeah.
15:00But as a football player, yeah.
15:02Well, look, end of the day,
15:04I don't think there's many played harder than me, mate.
15:06No, certainly not.
15:07And actually, many get to where I got to.
15:09Yeah, yeah.
15:10Well, absolutely, absolutely.
15:11And United got the benefit of it.
15:13I love the story.
15:14I mean, they got a huge transfer fee for you.
15:16They built a new stand.
15:18Yeah, they did.
15:19D-U-F-C.
15:20Yes, that's right.
15:22It should be D-U-N-C.
15:25That's it.
15:26I actually think I paid for it because when I went to Leeds,
15:31I was talking to Leeds at the time,
15:33and he'd be on the phone all the time as he signed, as he signed,
15:36and I never signed.
15:37I went back, put me in the boardroom,
15:39and I said, look, we're trying to build this stand and finish this stand.
15:42We need this money.
15:43We're counting on this money to finish the stand off.
15:45That is a fact.
15:46That's 100%.
15:47I said, look, I'm not signing for Leeds.
15:49I'm a Rangers man.
15:50I want to go to the Rangers.
15:51That's it.
15:52So that was the stand.
15:53They heard that stand getting built because of my money that was coming in there.
15:57And also Labour doing it as well, probably.
15:59Digging holes and digging ditches.
16:01I don't know.
16:02I paid for it and built it for nothing.
16:04It's not bad, is it?
16:05I never got a penny.
16:06I never got a penny out of it.
16:07What was it like?
16:08I was fascinated because you came back to,
16:10I think I'm right in saying at the end of 2023, two years ago,
16:14you came back and watched a game at Tannadise.
16:16I think you'd watched it.
16:17Yeah.
16:18You went before you,
16:19it must have been when you were a full-time manager.
16:20Yeah.
16:21You came up and there was a picture of you in the stand.
16:23Right, in my stand.
16:24In the stand.
16:25And I thought, did you think that this was the stand?
16:26I did.
16:27Because you bring back memories.
16:28It's not bad.
16:29To be honest, you're right.
16:30I hadn't thought about Dundee, as I said to you,
16:32for many, many years, right?
16:33Many years.
16:34And then I went back for, I was doing a talk.
16:37I was doing a talk in the theatre there.
16:39Yeah.
16:40And I tell you, I nearly welled up.
16:42I was at it.
16:43I actually welled up in a way, you know what I mean?
16:45Because I was coming back thinking,
16:46you know, I spent all this time here
16:48and I hadn't even been thinking about it.
16:50And then I met some of my ex-teammates.
16:52I tell you, I brought a tear to my eye.
16:54And then when I went into Tannadise,
16:56it was the same thing.
16:57I'd run around that track.
16:58Yeah.
16:59I'd run that pitch.
17:00I contributed to this.
17:02And I spent a lot of time in Dundee.
17:04I brought back a lot of fond memories.
17:06Yeah, yeah.
17:07Memories that I'd forgot about.
17:09I'd just start shouting at wee Jim all the time,
17:11you know what I mean?
17:12I'd actually start to think about it.
17:13I mean, honestly, you could give me
17:15£5 million just now, right?
17:16And I couldn't tell you how many goals
17:17I scored for Dundee United.
17:19I couldn't tell you, right?
17:20But I think I've maybe watched one back.
17:22I can maybe get one back at Celtic or two back.
17:24You're the one that you're seeing at the back post.
17:25I think I scored one at Celtic.
17:28Which is incredible because I never knew
17:31nothing about that.
17:32I watched the Sky maybe,
17:33I watched the television a few years back
17:35and somebody says that Dundee United
17:36have never won since that day.
17:37It's the last time they've won,
17:38that's why I cared.
17:39And they're playing twice a season there.
17:41I know, I know.
17:42So it brought back a lot of great memories as well.
17:44It was enjoyable times as well.
17:46I mean, I loved it as such.
17:47Yeah, yeah.
17:48It was great.
17:49I bet.
17:50I played great football.
17:51I was ripping it up.
17:52You're young, you're with your mates.
17:53Scoring goals.
17:54Injury free.
17:55What not to like.
17:56I guess you become the most expensive
17:59British football player at the time
18:01when you're signing for Rangers.
18:02Extraordinary really.
18:03Yeah.
18:04If you think about it,
18:05Roy Keane had gone to prior to that
18:06but not for quite the same.
18:07Yeah.
18:083.75 million.
18:09You were 4 million.
18:13Rangers obviously, injury does not help.
18:15Mark Haitley doesn't help.
18:17Banging them in.
18:18He continues to bang them in.
18:20I think it was a move too soon for me.
18:24It was too soon.
18:26Walter, God bless him, and Archie,
18:28they wanted me to come in a year later.
18:30So they were tapping me up now.
18:32So I was meeting them in Stirling
18:34with lay-bys and everything.
18:35You know what I mean?
18:36Archie and that.
18:37They wanted me to stay in the United.
18:40And they were offering me all kinds to stay.
18:43I'm saying A.
18:45What can they offer you to stay?
18:47They'll give me a car.
18:49They'll give me a flat.
18:51They'll pay for the exit.
18:52They'll pay for the flat.
18:53You know what I mean?
18:54Whatever I needed.
18:55They knew I had nothing.
18:57Obviously, I was getting fined a lot.
18:59I wasn't on any wages.
19:01They knew that as you just touched on Mark Haitley,
19:04Ali McCoy, Hank Gordon,
19:06there was a few other top world-class players there
19:08who were in their 30s,
19:09who were established, top-class players.
19:12You know, who were fantastic players
19:14and had been scoring hundreds of goals.
19:17I come there to be the next one in line.
19:20Probably to replace Mark Haitley.
19:23But I wasn't ready.
19:25Actually, Mortimer knew that.
19:27He said, look, we need you for another year.
19:30The next two years, I said,
19:32I'm getting injured here.
19:35I've got teams in England wanting me.
19:37I've got teams all over the place wanting me.
19:39So it was too early for me.
19:41I wasn't ready for that move.
19:44I just wasn't...
19:46They were great players.
19:49They were in their 30s.
19:50I was a baby.
19:51I was a pup.
19:52It wasn't completely...
19:54You went there.
19:55Obviously, difficulties,
19:56but you still scored a hat-trick.
19:57I remember.
19:58A broth.
19:59I know it's amazing.
20:01I forgot.
20:02I can't even remember how I scored that hat-trick.
20:04It must have been a header in there somewhere.
20:06Possibly, yeah.
20:07Just of the ball.
20:08Did you get a ball then?
20:09I think I gave it to my dad.
20:10They'll hate my dad now.
20:11Yeah.
20:12Yeah.
20:13But obviously,
20:14a fateful day.
20:15This all hinges on
20:17against Ray Trovers.
20:1916th April 1994.
20:21You've talked about it a lot
20:22in the last few days.
20:24How do you reflect on that?
20:27Because it's such a fascinating game,
20:28again,
20:29because you scored your first goal
20:32for Rangers that afternoon.
20:34You got booked for celebrating.
20:37I didn't even know that.
20:38Yeah.
20:39You left the field.
20:40The irony of that is off the scale
20:41because obviously what happened
20:42in the first half,
20:43when you didn't get...
20:44Yeah.
20:45You didn't get...
20:46Well, you wished now probably
20:47you were sent off
20:48because that might have solved the problem.
20:49Yeah.
20:50Well, I wouldn't have got
20:51a 12-game banner,
20:52I think, would I?
20:53Yeah, exactly.
20:54Exactly.
20:55Obviously,
20:56the Jock McStay instance.
20:57If I did a book again,
20:58Duncan,
20:59I loved,
21:00so enjoyed researching my book
21:01and loved writing about you.
21:02You continue to fascinate me.
21:03Right.
21:04Okay.
21:05Your career is just fascinating.
21:06Okay.
21:07I thought...
21:08But,
21:09what fascinates me too
21:10is the headbutt.
21:11The headbutt,
21:12inverted commas.
21:13Two people's lives changed
21:14in that moment.
21:15Your life changed hugely.
21:16Jock McStay's life changed.
21:17Yeah,
21:18which you wouldn't have thought
21:19would you, really?
21:20Because it was a big impact
21:21on us,
21:22both of us.
21:23You know what I mean?
21:24Obviously,
21:25that led to me
21:26breaking my probation.
21:27Yeah.
21:28Which then,
21:29obviously,
21:30put me in prison.
21:31I think,
21:32which I've heard
21:33as the years have gone on,
21:34he'd had quite a difficult time
21:35with that.
21:36Yeah.
21:37I saw some problems,
21:38you know what I mean?
21:39Because he was involved
21:40in the incident.
21:41It was nae fault of him.
21:42Yeah.
21:43It was nae fault of him.
21:44There was contact.
21:45Yeah.
21:46You know,
21:47there was contact there,
21:48but, you know,
21:49there wasn't any force in it.
21:50There was contact,
21:51but, you know,
21:52there's nae blame to him at all.
21:53Yeah.
21:54He's probably got away
21:55by the
21:56rough end of it,
21:57really, isn't he?
21:58And such, you know,
21:59he never went, you know,
22:00so
22:01it's a shame that.
22:02Duncan,
22:03what I've often wondered
22:04is what,
22:05will it ever happen?
22:06I don't know.
22:07Would you walk,
22:08if you walked past the street
22:09and there's Jock McStay,
22:10how would that,
22:11what would you say?
22:12Yeah,
22:13I don't know really,
22:14to be honest with you.
22:15In the book,
22:16I think,
22:17I don't believe people
22:18when they say,
22:19I have no regrets.
22:20We all have regrets.
22:21And you say,
22:22a few regrets.
22:23Yeah.
22:24One of them
22:25was the Jock McStay incident.
22:26It is,
22:27but I don't think at the time
22:28we knew,
22:29you know,
22:30it wasn't a bad incident.
22:31Who'd ever thought
22:32I was going to go to prison?
22:33Who'd ever thought
22:34I was going to follow
22:35Zora Weerun
22:36for all these years,
22:37you know?
22:38But it has,
22:39hasn't it?
22:40Obviously,
22:41it's been tough for him,
22:42of course.
22:43It must have been tough for him
22:44to,
22:45especially when he was
22:46in prison.
22:47I mean,
22:48there's no film
22:49between me and him anyway.
22:50Obviously,
22:51it's nothing to do with him.
22:52He's fairly unfortunate
22:53in that whole incident,
22:54isn't there?
22:55Yeah,
22:56yeah.
22:57So much happened from that
22:58and in a way,
22:59you know,
23:00obviously,
23:01Berlini,
23:02it's quite,
23:03looking through your book,
23:04the pictures earlier,
23:05it's quite stark.
23:06You've kept your
23:07Berlini shirt,
23:08red and white shirt,
23:09red and white,
23:10bizarrely.
23:11I know,
23:12but they put
23:13the blue stripes on it.
23:14Well,
23:15especially for me,
23:16the cons that were in there.
23:17And they extended the sides
23:18with a bit of blue on it.
23:19Right,
23:20right.
23:21So it was big.
23:22And,
23:23I must have wore that
23:24for the seven weeks,
23:25you know what I mean?
23:26I can't remember ever
23:27washing any of my gear.
23:28So,
23:29probably just hanging out
23:30at the cell or something,
23:31but I stole it.
23:32I robbed it.
23:33Yeah,
23:34because I've got to say,
23:35you're probably not allowed to.
23:36Well,
23:37you wouldn't be,
23:38it's probably the first,
23:39only shirt that's come
23:40outside Berlini,
23:41isn't it?
23:42I robbed it,
23:43you know what I mean?
23:44But,
23:45because the press were outside
23:46and because they wanted me
23:47to go in the morning,
23:48they come in at night.
23:49They come in at night
23:50with some of my gear.
23:51And they,
23:52they,
23:53I had a suit on that one
23:54and I hung my suit up
23:55on the thing with,
23:56and the boy come in and says,
23:57look,
23:58you'll get changed in the morning,
23:59you know what I mean?
24:00You get changed in there
24:01in the morning,
24:02I'll knock on your door
24:03in the morning at the cell
24:04and you'll just go straight out.
24:05So,
24:06as we're getting changed,
24:07I've got the shirt,
24:08I took the shirt off,
24:09haven't I?
24:10And I just got it right in there,
24:11slotted it,
24:12gone.
24:13I signed the wall.
24:14Did you?
24:15I fucking signed,
24:16I signed the wall as well.
24:17I remember that,
24:18it's just amazing,
24:19I was like,
24:20I should have put this
24:21in the bloody book.
24:22I signed,
24:23I signed,
24:24I signed the wall,
24:25you know,
24:26big dunk was here
24:27and all that,
24:28because you see
24:29the daft,
24:30daft things you get,
24:31you know.
24:32It was me,
24:33Jimmy from Postal Park
24:34was here
24:35and Alan Portillo
24:36from Dundee
24:37was here.
24:38Well,
24:39but you weren't there.
24:40So I signed the wall
24:41and I robbed my shirt.
24:42My dad came to the door
24:43and he was like,
24:44he's been,
24:45he's been.
24:46So that's what it was like for me,
24:47I took the shirt off.
24:48What do you remember
24:49of that trip from Glasgow
24:50back to Merseyside?
24:51Because I think I'm right in saying
24:52you,
24:53was it at Linazine?
24:54A nice car.
24:55I think it was a big house
24:56or something like that.
24:57Daimler.
24:58Daimler,
24:59wasn't it?
25:00Everton
25:01put it on for you.
25:02They did.
25:03And I think,
25:04I'm right in saying
25:05photographers
25:06were going to follow you
25:07on a motorbike.
25:08On a motorbike.
25:09One of the motorbikes
25:10was following us down
25:11to Liverpool
25:12trying to find out
25:13where I was going to stay
25:14because they wanted
25:15the first pictures,
25:16didn't they?
25:17Whatever it was.
25:18We actually,
25:19we ended up
25:20swerving up
25:21to the top of the shop
25:22somewhere
25:23in the big car,
25:24do you know what I mean?
25:25Just to shake them off.
25:26Shake them off
25:27and we did.
25:28I went back to Liverpool
25:29and I tell you,
25:30I was only in the jail
25:31for about six or seven weeks
25:32in prison
25:33and do you know
25:34when you come back
25:35and you just walk out
25:36in the grass or something?
25:37It's incredible,
25:38you know?
25:39And you've only been
25:40in jail for a week
25:41and you come out,
25:42you're on,
25:43you're walking on the grass
25:44and you get your
25:45first English breakfast.
25:46I tell you,
25:47it's absolutely fantastic.
25:48You got piped on
25:49in your first game.
25:50I did.
25:51Was it a reserve game?
25:52Reserve game, aye.
25:53Scored a couple of goals
25:54I think.
25:55There was a bit of
25:56controversy around it
25:57but you did score
25:58and it must be amazing
25:59just getting back
26:00to feeling that,
26:01the joy of scoring a goal
26:02even in a reserve game.
26:03And there was
26:04ten thousand
26:05in a freezing cold night.
26:06It was good to get
26:07back playing again,
26:08you know what I mean?
26:09I mean,
26:10it's one of those
26:11tendencies
26:12in reserve games
26:13because Celtic Rangers
26:14game,
26:15I think you made your
26:16debut in for Rangers
26:17as a reserve game,
26:18wasn't you?
26:19I believe so,
26:2020,000.
26:2120-odd thousand.
26:22Incredible,
26:23incredible.
26:24So much to speak about,
26:25obviously Goodison
26:26is in all our thoughts
26:27just now with the
26:28last game coming up.
26:29I mean,
26:30what a great stadium.
26:31I mean,
26:32I think about
26:33Dens Park,
26:34Dundee Stadium,
26:35Archibald Leach.
26:36Archibald Leach.
26:37Ibrox.
26:38And you're so
26:39kind of
26:40associated with
26:41Goodison.
26:42I just think of
26:43the great goals.
26:44I mean,
26:45my goodness,
26:46twirling your shirt.
26:47I know.
26:48That great goal
26:49against Man U.
26:50Liverpool,
26:51obviously.
26:52It's one of the
26:53big goals,
26:54isn't it?
26:55It's one of the
26:56big goals that you
26:57remember.
26:58I remember the
26:59fans,
27:00the atmosphere
27:01of the fans.
27:02I think when I
27:03look at Goodison,
27:04I think of the fans
27:05and how much
27:06they're going to
27:07support him.
27:08And all the
27:09families.
27:10Look,
27:11the dads are not
27:12there now.
27:13The granddads are
27:14not there now.
27:15They've all passed
27:16away,
27:17unfortunately.
27:18And all the
27:19memories for all
27:20the families
27:21are in that
27:22stadium.
27:23There's no
27:24connection to
27:25the new
27:26stadium.
27:27None.
27:28I've got no
27:29connection to
27:30the new
27:31stadium.
27:32I couldn't
27:33even ask
27:34about the
27:35new stadium.
27:36Your picture
27:37is on the
27:38side of
27:39Goodison.
27:40You've certainly
27:41got murals,
27:42a lovely mural
27:43of you,
27:44I think,
27:45from the back
27:46of the book.
27:47A fantastic
27:48picture.
27:49That will
27:50stay,
27:51I guess.
27:52That will be
27:53there.
27:54You'll be
27:55there forever.
27:56You've left
27:57your mark.
27:58It's a shame
27:59isn't it?
28:00Because it's
28:01all going to
28:02go.
28:03There'll be
28:04no memories
28:05there.
28:06If I think
28:07about Goodison
28:08and all the
28:09lovely moments
28:10I've had there,
28:11gone.
28:12They might be
28:13tucked away
28:14back in there
28:15but it's not
28:16going to be
28:17the same for me.
28:18Of course
28:19it's going to
28:20be the new
28:21players,
28:22the new
28:23fans,
28:24corporate
28:25stuff all
28:26the way
28:27through.
28:28They'll
28:29take 10,
28:3015,
28:3120 years
28:32before they
28:33start getting
28:34another chance
28:35to play.
28:36You get a
28:37penalty in the
28:38last minute.
28:39Everyone
28:40on 2-1
28:41down.
28:42You're
28:43going to
28:44be like
28:45what am
28:46I going
28:47to do
28:48with this?
28:49I couldn't
28:50wait to get
28:51rid of
28:52the ball
28:53but the
28:54fans are
28:55actually
28:56singing
28:57then.
28:58They're
28:59seeing
29:00what's
29:01happening.
29:02Duncan
29:03I always like to just see the game out, but I'm now got the big moment, I've been just
29:08put right on, I hadn't been playing for months.
29:10And of course, when you're thinking negative stuff all the time, you know it's going to
29:14happen, don't you?
29:16You kind of scuffed it slightly, but the gods were shining, the gods were looking down.
29:20They were, on that day.
29:22I didn't have very much luck in my career did I, let's be fair, a lot of injuries and
29:25problems, but somebody was smiling at me that day, and it was a great moment.
29:29It was right in the stars, wasn't it?
29:31The last kick of the ball, my last moment in my Everton career as a player, and scoring.
29:36Wonderful it was.
29:38Look at the Scotland career, because I, again, during the course of my research, I went and
29:45got the actual 90 minutes from the BBC of the Germany game, which you obviously almost
29:51came of age, in a way.
29:53That overhead kick.
29:55Goalie made that great save.
29:57Which, I think I say in my book, everyone says, hit the bar, no, it was Kopke, a great
30:01save up to his left.
30:03It was almost tantalising, the promise of what Duncan Ferguson could be for Scotland,
30:08and we wanted a number 9 so badly, and we thought we had it, and obviously circumstances
30:14intervened, but that night was it.
30:17It's a massive regret for me, not playing for my country.
30:19Massive, massive.
30:22Do you know what I mean?
30:23I was blaming everybody else.
30:24I blamed everybody for what had happened to me.
30:26I just dug my heels in and decided I'm not going to play.
30:29I did go back a couple of times.
30:30I pulled out a lot of squads, and God bless them, Craig Brown looked after me.
30:35I was pulling out squads, and I told Craig I was retiring.
30:39Finished.
30:4094.
30:4195 when I came out of the gym.
30:4295.
30:43I had enough.
30:44And he said, no, I'm not telling anybody that.
30:46You're joking, aren't you?
30:47You're only 23.
30:49So I pulled out squads.
30:51He protected me.
30:52You did play a while, didn't you?
30:54I did.
30:55My dad pushed me to go back.
30:56And you said you played against Austria.
30:58He said, go back.
30:59He said, come on, go back.
31:00And I went back.
31:01I didn't like it.
31:02My heart wasn't in it.
31:03My heart wasn't in it.
31:04I've seen people there that gave me 12 game bans and wishing me all the best.
31:09I was bitter.
31:10I was upset.
31:11It was a big, massive regret.
31:12I mean, of course, nobody's going to remember that story.
31:14People just remember stats, don't they?
31:16Look, I would say quite easily, I should have been playing for the 20-year-old to 34.
31:21I was asked nearly every single year for 14 years to play for my country.
31:25I don't know how many caps that would be.
31:27I don't know how many goals that would be.
31:29It's all words now.
31:30There's no stats behind it.
31:32But I think we all know if I was playing for that amount of period of time,
31:35how many caps I would have got, how many goals I would have scored.
31:37But as it happens, not to score a goal for my country, that is criminal.
31:41That is criminal.
31:42You did score a goal at Hampden, though.
31:44Oh, I think I did.
31:46For Everton against Queen's Park in the Premier League.
31:50Not quite Brazil, is it?
31:52You think that?
31:53Duncan Ferguson should not be involved.
31:54It's not quite Brazil, is it?
31:55No, it's not.
31:56Speaking of which, last question, I promise.
31:58You've got a big night ahead with Pat.
32:02Talking of Brazil, Carlo Ancelotti is possibly going to Brazil.
32:06Is he?
32:07I've not heard.
32:08I was going to say, Duncan, he might...
32:11Well, I'm out of a job.
32:12He might invite you along.
32:13He might pay the restaurant bills.
32:17He's the king, isn't he?
32:19You want to see the king with money.
32:21But what is the future for Duncan?
32:23I need a job.
32:24I'm out of work.
32:25I want to work.
32:26I want to work in management.
32:28I think I've picked two tough jobs.
32:30Two very tough jobs.
32:31Real tough jobs.
32:32So I want to go again.
32:34To lose my job through administrations.
32:36Very unlucky.
32:38Thumbs up, really, doesn't it?
32:40I want to continue my management.
32:43I think I've got a lot to offer.
32:45What's it like going around lower division grounds in Scotland again?
32:48I came to your first game against Arbroath for Inverness.
32:54It's good.
32:55When you're winning, you're fine.
32:57The players are very nervous, I find, sometimes when I'm coaching them and managing them.
33:01They're very nervous.
33:03When I first go in, you know what I mean?
33:05Because of the size of me, and I go in, and the reputation I've got.
33:09So they're really nervous.
33:11It's just trying to calm them down, to relax a wee bit.
33:14I'm not that big lunatic that everybody thinks I am, at all.
33:16I can empathise with that feeling.
33:18I'm not that big hard case who goes about beating people up.
33:22I know.
33:23Maybe when I was 17 I did, but not when I'm 50.
33:27That's another lifetime ago.
33:29It's all a lifetime ago.
33:30Imagine going back to when you were kids.
33:31We've all done daft things, haven't we?
33:33I did a few daft things between 16 and 19.
33:36When the pitcher was aggressive.
33:38I'm not shying away from that.
33:40I'm not shying away from that.
33:41I was an aggressive football pitcher.
33:42That's why people love me.
33:43Talking about daft things,
33:45the night you mentioned in your book,
33:47about Amsterdam that night,
33:49you were dressed up in those necklaces.
33:51Yeah, drag.
33:53It was an earring thing.
33:55Was that, am I right to say,
33:57you were dressed up like Victor Ferreira?
33:59I'm not sure.
34:01I just don't know.
34:02Who knows when these crazy nights end up looking like
34:04you're dressed up as a woman in drag, you know?
34:06So that's what happened.
34:09Strange last question about Duncan.
34:12Really appreciate it.
34:14This has been, for me,
34:1518 years in the running.
34:17I've been looking forward to this.
34:19I came down,
34:20my first assignment for the Scotsman was
34:22when you signed for Newcastle,
34:23was sent down to do that press conference.
34:25And you were up there and I was there.
34:27I was young, 25 years ago.
34:29We were all young then.
34:31Well, that was a very interesting
34:33half an hour I spent with Duncan Ferguson.
34:36I was able to ask him
34:38everything I wanted to ask him.
34:40I still have many, many other things
34:42I'd still like to ask him.
34:44But that's the way it is
34:46with Duncan Ferguson.
34:48What a life.
34:49And I feel like
34:51a part of my life
34:53has come full circle
34:56having finally interviewed him.
34:59And it was everything I wanted,
35:02everything I'd hoped for.
35:04I asked him questions I wanted to ask him
35:07when I was writing the book.
35:09And he was very honest.
35:11And I was quite happy to go back
35:14to the prison cell in the morning
35:17when he was released,
35:19or libbed, I think it is,
35:21in prison parlance.
35:23And, yeah,
35:25Dundee United, Rangers, Everton.
35:30What a fascinating career.
35:33And you can read about it
35:35on Scotsman.com.
35:38And I'm off to hear
35:41what else Duncan Ferguson has to say
35:44at a question and answers session
35:47he's got planned here in the grounds
35:49of the Marr Hall Hotel with Pat Nevin,
35:51his old Scotland mucker,
35:52his old Scotland teammate,
35:53who actually was subbed off
35:56when Duncan came on for his Scotland debut.
35:58So, again, it's another...