Reaction as Dan Ballard sends Sunderland to Wembley amid incredible scenes
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00:00Good morning everyone and welcome to the Raw podcast playoff semi-final edition.
00:24I'm joined by my colleagues James Copley and Jason Jones.
00:27We're going to dissect Sunderland's remarkable, stressful, agonising,
00:33incredible win over Coventry City in great detail, I think.
00:36And we're also going to look ahead to the playoff final at Wembley next weekend.
00:41I'm going to get the negative out of the way.
00:43Nine days away from a playoff final.
00:46Two sets of fans who have to make a long journey.
00:4911.09 at time of recording and we still don't have a kick-off time.
00:53Exorbitant ticket prices.
00:55It's an absolute scandal and everyone involved should hang their heads in shame, really.
01:00But we'll try and focus on the positives of the Coventry game.
01:03Boys, how are we feeling?
01:05I've been a bit flat this morning because I've had that feeling of,
01:07oh God, what if it's never this good again?
01:10What if it is never as good as Dan Ballard thumping in a header off the underside of the bar
01:15in the 122nd minute?
01:18I'm absolutely exhausted emotionally, to be honest.
01:20But I think I've sort of spun it the other way
01:23and it's been a complete and utter privilege to witness that moment at the Stadium of Light.
01:27It is, for me, the best moment I've ever witnessed at the Stadium of Light.
01:30The loudest I've ever heard the Stadium of Light.
01:32I still can't believe it.
01:34I've watched the goal back 100,000 times from all angles
01:37and it just gets better and better.
01:39The way he folds himself in half to head the ball into the back of the net.
01:43His head's by his shins.
01:45I imagine that's what Charlie Hurley used to be like.
01:49You hear the stories and the tales of Charlie Hurley coming up the Roker Park pitch
01:53to score a header and that's what you envisage.
01:56The ball in from Enzo Le Fay is absolutely sensational.
02:00When it hits the back of the net, there is literally one second remaining
02:04on the added time on the clock.
02:07It's the most incredible sequence I think I've ever witnessed
02:11and I'm just privileged and humbled that I was there
02:14and I think it's going to live long in the memory.
02:16I actually take the view of whatever happens in the play-off final
02:20now against Sheffield United, although I would love to win it
02:23and go to the Premier League.
02:25Light will always have that moment and I think it was really unifying
02:28between the fans, the players, the ownership.
02:30The whole day was just absolutely fantastic.
02:32I'm sure it will come onto the atmosphere,
02:34but the fan groups working with the clubs and the bus coming into the stadium
02:40was just incredible and what an advertisement for the club, for the city.
02:44Any player that looks at that is going to be massively, massively impressed.
02:49It was fantastic and yes, I am just about emotionally done now I think.
02:56I think it probably has to go at the top of the best stadium-like moments, Jason.
03:02Just because of the circumstances of it being the last second,
03:05I think you could make a strong argument for De Fo against Chelsea,
03:08De Fo against Newcastle.
03:09Certainly Kieran Richardson's three kicks won the context of that game
03:13and how long it had been since someone had won at home in the derby and all that.
03:16But I think the fact that, as James mentioned,
03:19when Dan Ballard stoops to get his forehead on that corner,
03:23there's one second left of the game and let's be honest,
03:28it was as if someone had been battering the door down for 120 minutes
03:31and we were just waiting for the goal to go in.
03:33What do you think? Best stadium-like moment?
03:37I think it's got to be, hasn't it?
03:40It's got to be. It's Hollywood stuff, it's fairytale stuff, it's storybook stuff.
03:46I think it's the worst state of being on a podcast,
03:52but it left me speechless and I'm still a little bit speechless at this moment in time.
03:57I am emotionally drained in the absolute best way.
04:01I echo what James was saying in the sense that I don't know what's going to happen at Wembley.
04:06I hope to God we go up, but if we don't, we will always have.
04:09We will always have that moment.
04:11And by the way, it couldn't have happened to a better candidate either.
04:15Dan Ballard over the course of those two semi-final legs was absolutely monstrous.
04:21Just a monumental presence at the back, such a wonderful job.
04:25And it was just, you know, I've been watching football,
04:29I'm 30 this year, I've been watching football for a quarter of a century.
04:34I don't think I've ever witnessed anything like that.
04:36I'm not entirely sure that I'm ever going to witness anything like that again,
04:41but like James says, what a privilege to have witnessed it, you know.
04:45And the reaction at Stadium Night, obviously the celebrations were absolutely wild,
04:50but just the unified outpouring of absolute jubilation.
04:56I just don't think I've ever felt anything like it.
04:58It was so, so special.
04:59I mean, obviously you two were up in the press box.
05:02I was off on Tuesday night, so I was in the stands for it.
05:07And it was just chaos.
05:09It was absolute chaos.
05:10There were bodies flying.
05:12I left the ground and I go to a lot of, like, punk shows.
05:17Like, I listen to a lot of punk music.
05:19My ears were ringing as if I'd been to a, like, a hardcore punk show.
05:23It was ridiculous.
05:24Like, it just left me absolutely stupefied.
05:27And like I say, it was just such a wonderful, wonderful thing to witness
05:31and to be a part of, because it really did feel as if everybody in that stadium
05:36on Tuesday night was a part of a moment in history.
05:41And I think that's why you've got to remember it as well,
05:43because you dream of stuff like that in football, but it never happens.
05:47Stuff like that never happens.
05:49And that's why I think, regardless of the result against Sheffield United,
05:52we'll always have that moment now.
05:54You know, even the opposition it came against as well,
05:57with that little bit of needle and rivalry and the way the games had gone as well,
06:01it was incredible.
06:05Shameless from Jason, by the way, to remind everyone he hasn't turned 30 yet.
06:08Don't think I'm going to let that go unnoticed.
06:11Shocking. Absolutely shocking.
06:14Or bragging that he got to spend the time in the stands,
06:16which I really would have liked to have done specifically then.
06:21It's interesting.
06:23I want to talk a little bit about the two legs in a bit more detail.
06:27There's been a lot of discourse around the two legs and a lot of suggestions
06:33that Coventry were clearly the better team and Sunderland looked away a little bit.
06:38I'm interested to get your boys' opinion on this,
06:41because obviously I thought Frank Lampard gave a really dignified press conference
06:46when he came in and spoke after the second leg,
06:48and spoke about how proud he was of his players
06:50and how well they'd done in a difficult atmosphere to control the ball.
06:53And I understood all that. I thought that was absolutely right.
06:55I thought Coventry were excellent.
06:57But I'm surprised by the suggestion that Sunderland looked their way through,
07:01because Sunderland weren't great the other night,
07:04but they got through because of a tactical masterclass in the first leg.
07:09And I thought that Coventry were frozen, really,
07:13by not being prepared for what Sunderland did, how they approached the game.
07:17It should have been 3-1, let's remember Eliza Minder ran through on goal late on.
07:21And I thought, you mentioned Dan Ballard there,
07:24the last 10-15 minutes of that first leg,
07:26long throw after long throw after long throw,
07:29even though Dan Ballard had come in the team to counter that
07:31and had been doing it all game.
07:32So just interested, I'll start with you, Jason, in terms of what you think,
07:35because while I think Frank Lampard is incredibly entitled
07:38to come in and say how proud he is of his players,
07:40I think that this discourse around the ties sort of ignores the fact
07:45that Sunderland really, and specifically Regis Lebris,
07:47really did a number on Coventry in that first leg.
07:51Yeah, I think you're absolutely right.
07:52I think at the CBS arena, you know, it was evident.
07:56Look, we watch Sunderland every week this year,
07:58sometimes twice a week.
07:59And we know that Lebris has that in him.
08:02He's not afraid of sort of relinquishing possession,
08:05of sitting deep and of hitting teams on the break.
08:07It's been really effective for Sunderland on so many occasions this season.
08:11And I think what we have seen,
08:13and it's been a little bit of a pattern over the course of the campaign,
08:15is that sometimes opposition sort of misconstrue possession for dominance.
08:21You know, I think sometimes teams think that because they've had so much
08:25of the ball, without necessarily laying too much of a glove on Sunderland,
08:30they've, you know, absolutely schooled Sunderland.
08:33That's not necessarily the case.
08:34You know, if Lebris is happy for his side to sit off
08:37and to hit teams quickly and effectively with the pace of Iniciatore
08:41or Mayendo or whoever it might be.
08:43And so be it.
08:44You know, there's more than one way of winning a football match.
08:46You don't have to pass teams into submission and score unbelievably
08:50aesthetically pleasing goals all of the time.
08:52Although it has to be said that I thought both of Sunderland's goals,
08:55you know, for different reasons in the first leg,
08:57were really pleasing on the eye.
08:59I think in the second leg,
09:00Sunderland were almost to an extent a victim of their own success
09:04in the Midlands,
09:05because I think that what it meant was that they entered that second leg
09:08not entirely sure about the best way of approaching it.
09:12You know, were they going to sit back as deep as they did the CES?
09:16Did they feel they need to go out on the front foot?
09:18And I think sometimes we perhaps saw them getting caught a little bit
09:21in the gap in between and not really knowing how to approach the game.
09:24You're absolutely right.
09:25It wasn't the best performance that we've ever seen from Sunderland
09:28on Tuesday night.
09:29But at the same time, they hung in there.
09:32They gave themselves an opportunity to still be in the contest
09:36come extra time.
09:37And then ultimately, when that one opportunity presented itself,
09:40they took it.
09:41And I think it's really, really hard.
09:43And look, we say this with an incredible amount of bias.
09:46We're all Sunderland fans.
09:47We write about Sunderland on a daily basis.
09:49But it's incredibly hard to begrudge Sunderland their place
09:52in the player final, in my opinion,
09:54given the way that they equipped themselves over the course
09:57of those two matches.
09:59I think that's the big point, isn't it?
10:00Ultimately, home advantage in the second leg told.
10:02And that was Sunderland's reward for finishing.
10:04Let's get it right, a large number of points ahead of Coventry
10:07over the course of a 46-game season.
10:09But, I mean, you spoke to Dan Neil after the game, James,
10:12and there was a huge shift.
10:14So I think Jason's alluded to it there,
10:16where there was clearly a little bit of confusion.
10:19It's not the right word, but tension in Sunderland
10:21in terms of how they approached the game.
10:23The second half of extra time, there was a marked shift
10:27in how Sunderland approached the game.
10:29They were a lot more brave in possession,
10:31got a lot more players ahead of the ball.
10:33It was almost as if the situation where it looked like they might lose
10:38sort of freed them up a little bit.
10:40And I know you spoke to Dan Neil about how the players
10:42almost came together and sort of it was a bit of a collective thing
10:45to say, come on, let's really have a go at this now.
10:48Let's play a little bit more like we maybe usually do.
10:52I think so. And I think the substitutions, actually,
10:54I thought Lebris got the substitution spot on.
10:56I thought Chris Rigg really injected something into the game.
10:59Obviously, he had a massive point to prove.
11:01Romain Mundel as well coming on, adding a bit of pace and directness.
11:04And Sunderland did improve in that extra time period.
11:07I think, for me, the discourse around this game and the two legs,
11:12it strikes me as sour grapes, really, from some quarters.
11:15There's more than one way to skin a cat.
11:18Sunderland didn't do anything beyond the rules of the game.
11:23And this isn't news to anybody, really.
11:25Anybody who's watched Sunderland knows that they'll surrender the ball
11:29in certain parts of the game.
11:30And it wasn't a problem when Sunderland had the best start to a season
11:33in 90 years and the media was absolutely loving them
11:36at the beginning of the season.
11:37Sunderland have played this way for quite some time.
11:39Perhaps maybe it's not as extreme as the first leg at the CBS Arena,
11:42but they were also coming into that game on a big losing streak,
11:45trying to play themselves back into form.
11:47So I don't think anybody expected Sunderland to go out
11:50and really try and, you know, press Coventry on the front foot
11:54at their ground in the first leg of a playoff semifinal.
11:56That would have been stupid and suicidal.
11:58So I'm not really sure what some of these pundits
12:01and some of the people in the local media and Coventry,
12:04some Coventry fans, were really expecting
12:06because to do what they think Sunderland should have done
12:09wouldn't have made much sense in my eyes.
12:11And I think Lebris over the two legs got it spot on.
12:14Yes, Sunderland rode the look at times.
12:16You do need a little bit of luck in a playoff semifinal,
12:18but here we are.
12:19And, you know, I think Lebris has been vindicated
12:22and justified in his decisions.
12:25Also, like, Coventry played a lot of long balls
12:29over the course of these two legs.
12:31I'm really surprised by some of the narrative
12:33that's come out by the game because, as I say,
12:35in that first leg, you know, Coventry were incredibly direct.
12:40And, unfortunately, they blew it in that first leg
12:43because Dan Ballard came behind the team
12:45and he repelled that threat.
12:46So I'm a little bit surprised by some of the narratives.
12:48As I say, I thought Frank Lampard's post-match press conference
12:51was really excellent and dignified.
12:53But I am a little bit surprised by some of the suggestions
12:56that Sunderland have just sort of, into Milan 2010 this.
13:00I think I don't really see that.
13:02But even if they had, there'd be nothing wrong with that either.
13:05There would be absolutely nothing wrong with that.
13:07I'm also old enough to remember when a certain Chelsea legend
13:10won a Champions League final where they had about 4% possession.
13:13So, anyway, but that's, you know, that's my opinion.
13:17But I think where it's an interesting discussion
13:20from a Sunderland perspective is, it is throwing this forward.
13:23So we've seen literally over the course of two legs,
13:26two very different Sunderlands.
13:28They're 4-4-2, low block, counter-attacking,
13:31pace at the end, underneath the door.
13:32And we've seen at the end of that Coventry game,
13:34something a little more familiar, 4-3-3, two number eights,
13:37popping it around a little bit.
13:39Dan Neil dropping in as a third centre-half, spreading the play.
13:42Both have looked brilliant at times this season.
13:44Both have looked not very good at times this season.
13:46And it raises the really interesting question
13:48of what you do when you play Sheffield United at Wembley
13:51in, you know, nine days' time.
13:53So where are we at, boys, on sort of where we think Sunderland will go
13:59and what they should be doing going into this final?
14:02I think it's a fascinating debate.
14:04And I don't have the answer, to be honest,
14:05because casting my mind back to, was it New Year's Day
14:08when we beat Sheffield United at home 2-1?
14:10That was the first time La Brice really sprung the 4-4-2, wasn't it?
14:13With Isidore and Maienda up front.
14:15They both looked electric.
14:16And Sunderland got a win at the time.
14:18At the time, we thought it was a win that might propel Sunderland
14:21into the automatic promotion spots.
14:23And they could really attack that.
14:24It didn't transpire that way.
14:25But I wonder if La Brice will have that in his mind.
14:29It's a cliche, isn't it?
14:30But that Wembley pitch is big and you don't want to be too open,
14:33particularly in the early stages of the game.
14:35Sheffield United have got an embarrassment of riches,
14:37really, for a championship club.
14:39Although Sunderland shouldn't fear that.
14:40But they have got sort of deep pockets in terms of their bench
14:44and players that could come on and change the game.
14:46So, I think it's a very interesting debate question.
14:50Would I start 4-4-2 at Wembley?
14:52Probably not.
14:53But I could see why you might be minded to do that.
14:56I just think in a big game like that against good opposition,
14:59you might want a little bit more control in the middle.
15:02And then you perhaps assess on how the game goes later on.
15:09Romain Mundel's the big piece of this puzzle, isn't he, Jason?
15:12In terms of how fit he is.
15:14Because James alluded to it earlier in the podcast,
15:17he was the game-changer, really, to a large extent.
15:19Chris Rigaard would definitely put in that category as well.
15:22His substitute efforts over the two legs were brilliant, really,
15:25given the disappointment that he would have had at not starting.
15:28But Mundel's presence changed the game.
15:30It pushed Milan Van Eyck back.
15:33If he's fit, he has to start, doesn't he?
15:37Then that means that Enzo Lefebvre is moving into the middle
15:39and the whole complexion of the team changes, doesn't it?
15:54Have we lost Jason there?
15:55I think we may have lost him.
15:57He's still there.
15:58I don't know if he's slightly behind because he's nodding to all of your points,
16:01but you've stopped speaking.
16:05Okay, we'll wait for Jason to re-emerge.
16:08James, are you starting Mundel if he's fit?
16:11If he's fit, absolutely.
16:12I think he offers a lot, doesn't he, on that left-hand side?
16:15Not to say that Enzo Lefebvre has been…
16:17Yeah, I think you've hit the nail on the head there.
16:22This is strange, isn't it?
16:25We've sort of said it all season,
16:27even during his long periods of absence,
16:29that England and Sunderland are pretty undoubtedly a better side with Romain Mundel.
16:41Are you back, Jase, or not?
16:47Well, this is going well.
16:48Okay, he's dropped out.
16:50Okay, so Jase was telling everyone that he would start Romain Mundel.
16:54James, you pick up from that.
16:56Yes, I agree, to be honest.
16:57I think if he's fit, he's got to play.
16:59I think he's direct.
17:00I think he's an attacking threat.
17:01I think his goals and assists this season,
17:04when you consider how much he's actually played,
17:06is pretty remarkable, really.
17:09He's on my team sheet 100%,
17:11and I think, as you mentioned,
17:13Enzo Lefebvre in the middle is a really, really interesting prospect.
17:16I know one of them was a set-piece,
17:17but over the course of the two legs,
17:19he's got two assists, hasn't he?
17:21You're just starting to see how influential he can be.
17:24I'm dying to see him in the middle.
17:26I haven't seen Mundel and Lefebvre really playing the same team,
17:29have we, apart from that semi-final second leg.
17:33So, I think we're all clamouring to see it.
17:35I do think that makes Sunderland the strongest team,
17:38and I feel a bit sorry for Chris Rigg,
17:40because he's had an influence over the entirety of Sunderland's campaign so far.
17:44But, yes, I think if Mundel's fit,
17:46I think he's got to play,
17:47and I think most Sunderland fans would likely agree.
17:52I think it's that thing, isn't it,
17:54of the risk in it, as you've just alluded to there,
17:57is that Mundel and Lefebvre never really played together,
18:00and it feels like a big risk to put new partnerships into your team
18:05so close to such a big game.
18:07But having said that, there's a block of training, really, isn't there, James,
18:10that you should feel like there's enough preparation.
18:12If Lebris feels like that's his best team,
18:14there should be time to work on that.
18:16And as you say, it's tough on Chris Rigg,
18:19but the luxury of having him and one of those two strikers
18:22to come off the bench could be a massive, massive boost.
18:26Yes, and it's the risk-to-reward ratio, isn't it?
18:28I think changing, maybe as a left-winger out,
18:31poses a little bit less of a risk, doesn't it, really?
18:34Obviously, him and Söken are pretty familiar with each other,
18:37Söken and Mundel, so I think that works.
18:39And there's a fair amount of experience
18:42and sort of reliability and compatibility within that team
18:45that it's not really tearing the book up,
18:48in a sense, that Sunderland will maintain a shape that they're familiar with.
18:51So, I don't see that as being too much of an issue.
18:55And I think Lefevre's just born to play in the midfield,
18:58so I don't think that disrupts things too much either.
19:01Obviously, Dan Neal and Joe Bellingham are fairly familiar with each other by now,
19:05but it's definitely an interesting question.
19:07I think we've got Jason back, so maybe he can elaborate.
19:11Yes, we're just chatting about the balance of the side.
19:14I guess the strange thing about this final, Jason,
19:17is that we have this understanding that we know Sunderland
19:19can beat anyone on their day, including Sheffield United,
19:21because they've already done it.
19:23But there is this reality.
19:24I was watching the first leg of Sheffield United against Bristol City,
19:28and actually, Bristol City did pretty well after the red card
19:31until I think it was 65 minutes,
19:33and Chris Wilder brings on Kyle Moher and Tom Davies.
19:36And in those moments, you kind of realise what the difference is
19:40with these teams who have those parachute payments
19:43and the depth of their squad.
19:44They're fantastically well organised,
19:45so I'm certainly not taking anything away from Sheffield United.
19:48They're clearly, especially defensively, very well coached.
19:50But there is this reality, isn't there,
19:52that you are going up against teams that, for financial reasons,
19:55just have bigger squads, and they have a level of depth
19:58that might win on the day.
20:00It's just there's that quite brutal financial reality
20:02about this game, isn't there?
20:05Absolutely, absolutely.
20:06I mean, first of all, sorry for dipping away there, lads.
20:08I was chatting about Romain Mundeau to myself
20:10for about five minutes.
20:11I was having a great time.
20:13You're absolutely right, Phil.
20:16You know, it's the reason that we see it so often, isn't it?
20:18These teams come down.
20:20They employ the parachute payments.
20:21And look, I understand it's perhaps a little bit reductionist,
20:24and it maybe takes a little bit of credit away
20:26from the clubs who do come down,
20:27especially when you see what's happened to Luton Town this season,
20:30to solely sort of attribute it to the parachute payments.
20:33But more often than not, it is a factor.
20:35You know, Sheffield United were in a position in January
20:37where they were obviously in that promotion race,
20:41and then they went out, reinforced,
20:43and while it didn't necessarily, you know,
20:45catapult them into the automatic places,
20:47it did ensure that they were there or thereabouts
20:49throughout the second half of the campaign.
20:51And it does mean that on paper,
20:52they do have the strongest team in this sort of playoff contingent.
20:57Like, that being said, you know,
20:59we're talking about Sunderland and the potential rotation options
21:04that Liverpool has, the decisions he's going to have to make
21:06and how tricky that might be for him.
21:08You know, Sunderland might be in a position
21:09where they get to Wembley,
21:12and depending on what team the British decides to go with,
21:14you know, he might have the likes of a Wilson Isidore
21:18to bring on off the bench.
21:19He might have a Chris Rae to bring on off the bench.
21:22You know, it's not as if Sunderland
21:23are necessarily strapped of options.
21:25And again, I think it comes back to that thing
21:27where, you know, we all sort of had our doubts
21:30and expressed our doubts,
21:32and were a little bit wary of the rotation
21:34because of the way that it disrupted
21:36some of the momentum heading into the playoffs.
21:38But ultimately, like we sort of said last time we did the pod,
21:41you'd have to say that it's been vindicated to a certain extent
21:44because it does mean that the Brits now
21:46has the potential to, you know,
21:48sort of dip into the depths of a squad
21:50that he might not have been able to this time
21:52two or three months ago
21:53and might not have been able to
21:54if he'd continue to sort of field as strong as XI
21:57throughout that final run of what will ultimately be
22:00dead rubbers, I think.
22:02James, you alluded to a little bit
22:04at the start of the podcast,
22:05and I wanted to discuss it a little bit more now,
22:07and I'll come back to you for your thoughts
22:09in a couple of minutes, Jase.
22:10But you've alluded to it there at the start, James,
22:13that I'm really excited about this playoff final
22:16because the last two playoff finals we've done,
22:18it's kind of felt like all or nothing.
22:21Suddenly you have to get out of League One.
22:23Dear God, we can't have another season in League One.
22:26What the hell is going to happen?
22:27Now, there's obviously a reality that we all know
22:29that if someone loses this game,
22:30they're going to lose some players,
22:32and sometimes it can be really difficult to rebuild,
22:34and there'll be a lot of uncertainty
22:36and anxiety going into the next season.
22:38But fundamentally, this feels,
22:40I'm not going to say a free hit,
22:42because that's obviously a ridiculous comment to make,
22:44but it feels like someone can,
22:46everyone, players, fans,
22:48can really embrace this weekend.
22:50It's a reward for a terrific season,
22:52and it doesn't quite feel like the stakes
22:55are the same as they were, for example,
22:57that Wickham game, where, you know,
22:59there was an anxiety that came from,
23:01oh, God, what if we lose this?
23:03Obviously, it'll feel horrendous
23:05if we do lose this one,
23:07but do you get what I'm saying?
23:08Do you think I'm right?
23:10Yeah, you are right,
23:11and I think going back to the Charlton one as well,
23:13the anxiety around that game under Jack Ross,
23:15Sunderland had blown the top two.
23:17They wanted to secure an immediate return
23:19to League One.
23:20You kind of suspected that we weren't
23:22really good enough,
23:23and then you had the whole hoo-ha
23:25about losing it in the last minute,
23:26and then you consigned to the third tier again.
23:28That felt really horrible
23:30and not a lot of fun.
23:32I think the Wickham one going into the game,
23:34having been in League One for so long
23:36that you were so desperate to get out of there
23:38that it was relief.
23:39There was a lot of joy,
23:40and there was a lot of happiness,
23:42but you went into that game
23:44not wanting to lose
23:45because losing to Wickham Wanderers,
23:46with all due respect to Wickham Wanderers,
23:48for a club of the size of Sunderland
23:50to then spend another season in League One,
23:53the stakes were really high,
23:54just for that ownership as well.
23:56You know, you think of where Sunderland could be
23:58if Sunderland hadn't secured
24:00a return to the Championship.
24:02It would have really, really set this plan
24:05and this model back.
24:06But coming into the Sheffield United one,
24:09I think there's a gratitude that we're here.
24:12You know, there's an excitement.
24:14There is an understanding that we are playing
24:16against a team with parachute payments.
24:18I don't think that necessarily makes it
24:20like 100% a free hit,
24:22but there's a lot less anxiety
24:23coming into the game.
24:24I think my main cause of anxiety,
24:28and again, this is sort of lessened,
24:31but would be what you mentioned, Phil,
24:33is that I'm really, really keen
24:35to keep this group of players together
24:36to see what they could do
24:37over a long period of time.
24:39And if they got promoted,
24:40I would be interested to see
24:41how the likes of Joe Bellingham, Chris Rigg,
24:44Dan Ballard, Dennis Serkin
24:45cope to the Premier League
24:46with some additions.
24:47And I would like to keep this team together.
24:49Dan Neal in there as well.
24:51If they don't go up,
24:52then it's a real possibility
24:53that Sunderland could lose
24:54some of those players,
24:55like Trey Hulme as well,
24:56thrown into the mix.
24:57There will be significant interest.
24:58So I think that's a worry,
25:00but I think that's why, really,
25:02that I would like to see us promoted as well
25:05so we can keep this team together.
25:07But, you know, not winning this game
25:09isn't terminal for Sunderland.
25:11It's a bump in the road, I would suggest,
25:14and I genuinely do think
25:15we'd be able to go again.
25:17But I suppose when we all get
25:19to Trafalgar Square
25:20and we get to Wembley
25:21and we get to the day of the game,
25:22then the anxiety and the nerves
25:23will really kick in.
25:24And perhaps then it becomes
25:25less of a free hit,
25:26as some people have described it as.
25:28Because you want to win
25:29at the end of the day
25:30and you get to Wembley
25:31and Sunderland have got every chance
25:33because they can't beat Sheffield United.
25:35They've shown it.
25:36Yeah, you mentioned your main anxiety there.
25:38My main anxiety is that
25:40when I asked Lebris
25:41if he brought Yelder on to take a pound
25:43because he was really good in training.
25:44That was incredible, wasn't it?
25:46He said, well, he's not the worst.
25:48That was incredible.
25:50Which was very funny,
25:51but it hasn't necessarily calmed me
25:53at all ahead of next weekend.
25:55But, yeah, Jason,
25:56where are you kind of at emotionally
25:58in terms of the stakes of this final?
26:01And I am looking forward
26:02to this one more than the last three.
26:04And the Wiccan one,
26:05I was quietly confident,
26:07I have to say,
26:08because of what Sunderland
26:09had done in that semifinal.
26:11Because of the quality
26:12that we've discussed
26:13around Sheffield United,
26:14I can't feel that way
26:15coming into this final.
26:17I think Sunderland will rightly go off
26:18as outsiders,
26:19even though we know
26:20they can definitely do it.
26:21But where are you kind of at
26:22with this final
26:23and what it all means?
26:25Yeah, I mean,
26:26I would echo a lot
26:27of what's been said.
26:28I think firstly,
26:29sort of regarding Sunderland's status
26:31as sort of outsiders,
26:33I think you're absolutely right.
26:34I think Sheffield United are favourites.
26:36I think you'll struggle
26:37to find any pundit analyst
26:39who doesn't agree with that.
26:41At the same time,
26:42there is a little bit,
26:44and he wonders if that benefits
26:46Sunderland just a bit.
26:47You know, this young squad,
26:49this fearless squad,
26:50you know, given the form
26:52they had going into
26:53the Coventry semifinal,
26:54I think most people
26:55have pretty much written them off.
26:57You know, they've shown
26:58time and time again
26:59that they are capable
27:00of rising to the occasion.
27:02You know, I think some
27:03of the best performances
27:04we've seen this season
27:05have been against the
27:06quote-unquote biggest teams
27:08in the championship,
27:09you know, and I think they can,
27:11you know, they've earned
27:12the right to go into this
27:13and play without fear,
27:16you know, and just really enjoy it
27:18as an occasion
27:20and for what it is.
27:21And, you know, I think
27:22it's important to remember
27:23that the season we had last year
27:25when we finished 16th,
27:27you know, under Michael Bale
27:28and then Mike Dodds
27:29in an interim,
27:30and then Le Bris coming in,
27:32he was such an unknown entity
27:34and there was so much uncertainty
27:35about how Sunderland
27:36would perform this season.
27:38And I know that that was
27:39sort of pretty quickly dispelled
27:41given the sort of electric start
27:42they had with the campaign.
27:43But I think if you'd have asked
27:45any Sunderland fan
27:47before a ball was kicked
27:48if they would be happy
27:49with a player final,
27:50of course they would be.
27:51Of course they would be.
27:52But it's so far exceeded
27:54those initial expectations.
27:56And I think that it's
27:57such a wonderful reward
27:58for everything that the squad
27:59has achieved this year.
28:01I completely echo
28:03what James was saying
28:04in terms of the biggest fear
28:05I have is that if we don't go up,
28:07how many of these players go?
28:10That being said,
28:11I think that there are
28:12two caveats to that.
28:13I think the first one is
28:14that for the most part,
28:15Sunderland are in strong positions
28:18in terms of contracts,
28:20you know, in terms of having
28:21a little bit of
28:22sort of bargaining power
28:24with a lot of those players.
28:26I know there are obviously
28:27exceptions to that.
28:28Servan and Neil
28:29are on relatively short contracts
28:30and that's something
28:31that they'll probably
28:32look to address.
28:33But the other thing I would say
28:34is that even if, you know,
28:36Sunderland were to lose,
28:37hypothetically, a Joe Bellingham,
28:39the money that would have
28:40come in for him,
28:41do I have the faith
28:42that this recruitment model,
28:44this ownership would invest
28:45that properly to sort of
28:47kick on to the next stage
28:48of what they're trying
28:49to achieve here?
28:50Then yeah, I think I do
28:51because I think they've
28:52earned that faith, you know,
28:54that they've shown time and time again
28:56that they can bring in the players
28:58and they can develop the talent
29:00and they can build a squad,
29:01as we're seeing right now,
29:02capable of really challenging
29:04in the upper reaches
29:05of the Championship
29:06and ultimately trying to force
29:07its way back into the Premier League.
29:08So it's a game that, you know,
29:10I think we will get to Friday,
29:11Saturday next week
29:12and there will be a lot
29:13of trepidation, a lot of nerves.
29:14But at the same time,
29:15I think the overriding emotion
29:16has to be one of excitement.
29:19And it's just really well deserved.
29:21The Sunderland team
29:22has done wonderful things this season
29:23and they deserve their day at Wembley.
29:25The one thing I think as well, James,
29:27in terms of that player sales debate
29:30that I think gets a little bit
29:31lost at the moment
29:32is that, you know,
29:33there was a lot of discourse
29:34around the decision at the time,
29:35which was totally understandable,
29:36but people forget a little bit
29:38that Sunderland have already
29:39banked 10 million
29:40going into this window.
29:41So Jason's mentioned
29:43the contract situation,
29:44which obviously there's
29:45two exceptions,
29:46Dan Neil and Dennis Serkin,
29:47where Sunderland are definitely
29:48vulnerable.
29:49But obviously Sunderland
29:50are in a strong position in that.
29:51And financially, you know,
29:52they've already brought in
29:54over 20 million pounds worth of sales
29:56if you go back to Jack Clark.
29:57So I think that's part
29:59of the biggest sense of calm
30:03we have this time around, right?
30:05Is that we can see what the plan is,
30:08even if we disagree with it at times.
30:09I would still like Sunderland
30:10to sign a third striker
30:12at some point in their bloody history.
30:14But we can see what
30:16we can kind of see
30:17what the plan is.
30:18And while we know
30:19that some players will go,
30:21you know, we can see
30:22that it's not going to be
30:24the complete end of the journey
30:26if we do go and lose this game
30:28as no reason why you can't win.
30:30But, you know,
30:31which obviously might happen.
30:33No, I think you're correct.
30:34And I think, you know,
30:35some of those replacements
30:36you would hope would already
30:37be through the door,
30:38the likes of Milan Aleksic,
30:39you know, Harrison Jones
30:40as well as looked promising
30:41when he's played.
30:42So I would echo what Jason said.
30:44I do have a lot of faith
30:45in this recruitment team.
30:46I would actually love to see
30:47what they could do
30:48with a big chunk of money as well.
30:49I think that would be
30:50would be interesting.
30:51Like transfers wise,
30:52I just want us to get promoted
30:54so we can sign Enzo Lefebvre.
30:55I think that would be
30:56absolutely lovely to see him
30:58in red and white again.
30:59I do think if they don't
31:00get promoted, though,
31:01they do face a little bit
31:03of a conundrum and a problem
31:04in a sense that yes,
31:06they're well protected
31:07by a couple of really good
31:08and well negotiated contracts.
31:10But Sunderland have also been
31:12very good with the likes
31:13of Jack Clarke and Ross Stewart
31:15in that they haven't
31:16stood in the way
31:17when they've needed
31:19to go on and potentially
31:20further their career.
31:21Now, there are a couple
31:22of players now
31:23within Sunderland's squad
31:24that now fall into that bracket.
31:26And that's the key balance
31:28you've got to strike, isn't it?
31:29The needs of the team
31:30and the fan base
31:31and also keeping your word
31:33to players and your reputation
31:34within the game,
31:35avoiding sort of long standoffs
31:37and confrontations.
31:38So I'm intrigued to see what happens.
31:40Yeah, it's been mentioned there,
31:42but Jason, one of my fears
31:44is that, you know,
31:46we're going to look back
31:47in a few years' time
31:48and say,
31:49and that time we signed
31:50that Enzo Le Fay,
31:51and he was unbelievable
31:52and he stood on the left wing
31:53watching the ball fly
31:54over his head for six months.
31:55Then we never saw him again.
31:57But we chatted,
31:59James and I chatted briefly
32:00while you were talking
32:02to yourself there
32:03about Le Fay.
32:04Big game player, right?
32:05I mean, those games
32:06must have been torture
32:07for him standing on the wing,
32:08not really able to get involved,
32:10shuffling back to try
32:11and help Denis Irkin out.
32:12But, you know,
32:13the patience he showed
32:15to wait for his moments
32:17should probably really
32:18finish the podcast,
32:19but I just want to talk
32:20about Enzo Le Fay a bit
32:21because, you know,
32:22the quality he showed
32:23in the very rare moments
32:25he actually had to demonstrate
32:26was something to behold.
32:27That's what big game players
32:28are all about.
32:31Absolutely.
32:32I mean, I always want to talk
32:33about Enzo Le Fay
32:34so we don't have to end
32:35the podcast just yet.
32:36I think you're absolutely right.
32:37Just interesting little things.
32:38So I got the Metro through
32:39the match on Tuesday
32:41and there was a lad got on
32:42and he had the away shirt on
32:43and he had like the E. Le Fay
32:44on the back, the big 28.
32:46And it was one of those
32:47I was looking and I was like,
32:48in, what, 20 years' time,
32:49how much is that going to go for
32:50on classic football shirts?
32:51It's just, it feels
32:53like a lightning strike
32:55that he's even at the club,
32:56doesn't it, you know?
32:57But what I will say
32:58is that, you know,
32:59I think the way
33:00that he has applied himself
33:01in less than ideal circumstances
33:04has been nothing
33:05short of admirable.
33:06Obviously, you know, you said
33:07hasn't really played
33:08in his preferred position
33:09at all.
33:10I think in total he's probably
33:11had about half an hour
33:12in the middle of the park,
33:13something like that, you know?
33:14And regardless of that,
33:16there's never once been a point
33:18at which you thought,
33:19oh, this player who cost Roma
33:2120 odd million pounds
33:22last summer, this player who,
33:24you know, is capable,
33:25presumably, of cutting it
33:27at the very top level
33:28of European football
33:29just doesn't look bothered
33:30about being here, you know?
33:31I think there were,
33:32there were so many instances
33:34on Tuesday prior to him being
33:36sort of moved in the middle
33:37and Lundell coming on where,
33:39you know, he was really
33:40shuttling up and down
33:42that left flank.
33:43We sort of mentioned it
33:44last night, James,
33:45but like you could argue
33:46that actually the more
33:47impressive part of his game
33:49prior to the assist for Ballard
33:50was in his defensive way.
33:52He didn't necessarily
33:53have too much opportunity
33:54to do that much
33:55on the front foot.
33:56But regardless of that,
33:57he still completely bought
33:59into what Lebris
34:00was asking of him,
34:01completely put in the effort
34:03and ultimately played,
34:04you know, his part
34:05in a really hard-fought victory.
34:07And look,
34:09I'd love Sunderland to go.
34:11I'd love him to sign for us.
34:13And I think that it would be
34:14so fascinating to see
34:15what he could do
34:16given a run in the Premier League,
34:18especially with some of the
34:20talent that's around him
34:21who are only getting better
34:22and better with age.
34:23But even if worse comes to worse
34:25and it doesn't happen,
34:26I think that, you know,
34:28like you've sort of alluded to there,
34:30we will always look back fondly
34:32on the Enzola face,
34:33Stint at Sunderland,
34:34because even though
34:35it hasn't been necessarily
34:36what him or Lebris would have
34:38envisaged when he first
34:39came into the club,
34:40there's been some
34:41wonderful moments.
34:42And by and large,
34:43he's been a really,
34:44really positive addition
34:45to the Sunderland side.
34:46I think that's a point
34:48worth noting, actually,
34:49Phil and Jase,
34:50is that Sunderland's
34:51wingers on the night,
34:52although in an attacking sense,
34:54weren't very impressive,
34:55the work rate both of them
34:57got through.
34:58Patrick Roberts actually
34:59doing it with a calf injury
35:00as well as well as later emerged.
35:02I thought they were
35:03absolutely sensational
35:04and just the amount of running
35:05they got through,
35:06their desire,
35:07and as well,
35:08Dan Ballard's obviously
35:09rightly taken the headlines
35:11over the two legs,
35:12but Luke09 as well,
35:13towards the back end
35:14of the game,
35:15Sunderland were left 2v2
35:16and you really,
35:17really feared the worst
35:18Coventry were in
35:19Sunderland's box
35:20and 09 produces
35:21an absolute worldie
35:22of a tackle to get
35:23the ball away.
35:24And I think that's
35:25one of those moments
35:26we might look back
35:27at a couple of years
35:28and think like, wow,
35:29that was decisive
35:30given what Sunderland
35:31went on to do in the game
35:32because it was a superb
35:33bit of defending.
35:34They could have easily
35:35got it wrong
35:36and, you know,
35:37give it away apparently
35:38and Coventry had a man
35:39over as well.
35:40It was brilliant.
35:41But I think this is what,
35:42you know,
35:43if we take away
35:44the tactics stuff,
35:45which obviously at times
35:46over the course of the season
35:47has been super impressive,
35:48I think this is what
35:49Lebris has brought.
35:50He was so ruthless
35:51earlier in the season,
35:52wasn't he?
35:53Do you remember that day
35:54we turned up at Blackpool
35:55and sort of half the squad
35:56had disappeared,
35:57but he was so ruthless
35:58in establishing
35:59what players
36:00he wanted to work with
36:01and that wasn't necessarily
36:02about tactics
36:03or playing style,
36:04that was about the mentality
36:05really, wasn't it?
36:06He's talked about this
36:07a lot over the course
36:08of the season
36:09and you mentioned there
36:10the two wingers
36:11producing very selfless
36:12performances
36:13and I know at times
36:14there's been discourse
36:15over the course of the season
36:16about goal contributions
36:17and that's the reason
36:19why they're in the team,
36:20right?
36:21That's the reason
36:22why they're here
36:23and, yeah,
36:24I just wanted to pick up
36:25on that, Jase,
36:26because I do think
36:27sometimes we obsess
36:28about tactics
36:29and game plans
36:30and stuff like that
36:31but probably what
36:32Jase has done
36:33so brilliantly
36:34is not being worried
36:36about upsetting anyone,
36:37he has focused
36:38single-mindedly
36:39on getting a group
36:40of players
36:41who were together
36:42and shared that
36:43sort of ambition,
36:44if you like,
36:45and that's where
36:46the performances
36:47of the last two legs
36:48come through, right?
36:49Is building a squad
36:50that has the mentality
36:51and the togetherness
36:52to cope with that
36:53kind of pressurised situation.
36:54Yeah, absolutely.
36:55I mean, look,
36:56before he came in
36:57what Sunderland really needed
36:58more than anything else
36:59was a clean slate
37:00and a breath
37:01of fresh air.
37:02You know,
37:03the way that things
37:04ended last season,
37:05the mood around the club,
37:06it was all just
37:07so negative.
37:08There was a real feeling
37:09of sort of deflation
37:10and he's brought
37:13that clean break,
37:14hasn't he?
37:15And everything
37:16that's come
37:17after his appointment,
37:18obviously,
37:19there have been
37:20tricky times this season
37:21but it's a championship
37:22campaign,
37:23it's going to happen
37:24and for the most part
37:25everything that he's
37:26brought in with him
37:27has been hopeful
37:28and progressive
37:29and it's really
37:30sort of re-established
37:31perhaps some of the connection
37:32which was starting
37:33to dwindle a little bit
37:35in the latter stages
37:36of last season.
37:38You know,
37:39like you said,
37:40he made some tough decisions.
37:41I think
37:42when you look at someone
37:43like Pierre Equa
37:44who was such an
37:45instrumental part
37:46of Sunderland's side
37:48for such a long period
37:50over the course
37:51of the first two seasons
37:52in the championship
37:53and, you know,
37:54he made that decision
37:55to send him out on loan
37:56and while at the time
37:57there were certainly people
37:58who would have disagreed
37:59with that,
38:00I think it's hard to argue
38:01against it again
38:02being vindicated
38:03because it's not necessarily
38:05as if Sunderland
38:06have missed Equa
38:07as an example
38:08too much over the course
38:09of the campaign.
38:10You know,
38:11and you talk about
38:12the togetherness
38:13and the unity,
38:14I think you only need
38:15to look at the celebrations
38:16full-time on Tuesday.
38:17You know,
38:18this is a squad who
38:19first of all
38:20evidently willing to run
38:22through brick walls
38:23for the head coach
38:24but are also just
38:25massively,
38:26massively united
38:27in trying to get this club
38:28back to the Premier League.
38:29I think it's a wonderful,
38:30wonderful thing to see
38:31and again,
38:32it's a wonderful thing
38:33to feel as if,
38:34you know,
38:35a support is worth
38:36some small part.
38:38Yeah,
38:39I think that sums it up.
38:40I think that's why
38:41we can go to Wembley
38:42feeling pretty confident
38:43even if we accept
38:45all the realities
38:46about some of the advantages
38:47that Sheffield United have
38:48and the quality they've had.
38:49Well,
38:50I think that just about
38:51covers it.
38:52Thank you everyone
38:53who's listened
38:54and yeah,
38:55there's going to be
38:56stacks of content.
38:57We'll probably be back
38:58for a preview
38:59of the actual
39:00final itself
39:01in a bit more detail
39:02at some stage next week
39:03but there's going to be
39:04so much content
39:05on the Sunday Network website
39:06on our YouTube page
39:07so just
39:08yeah,
39:09stick with us,
39:10stay tuned
39:11and we'll be back with you
39:12very soon
39:13as the nerves
39:14start to grow
39:15and maybe the excitement as well.
39:16Cheers boys
39:17for your company
39:18and your chat
39:19and we'll see you all
39:20very soon.