Sunderland lose to Hull City with Dan Ballard and Enzo Le Fee injured...
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00:00Hello, welcome to the Raw podcast brought to you by the Sunland Echo.
00:24My name is Jason Jones, run by James Copley and Bill Smith, as always.
00:29It's another disappointing Sunderland result to be discussing on this Monday afternoon.
00:331-0 defeat against Hull City on Saturday lunchtime and a performance fill in which
00:39Sunderland never really looked like getting anywhere near their best.
00:44Yeah, it was a strange game that the first sort of 10 minutes looked pretty encouraging,
00:48you know, and that Sunderland I think dominated possession, they looked quite bright, got in some
00:52decent areas. I think Chris Rake had a couple of shots blocked, didn't he? And it felt like at that
00:56stage it could potentially be quite a good afternoon. But, you know, to be fair, I think
01:01it would be a bit of a push to say the Hull goal was coming, but they had definitely started to
01:05apply a bit of pressure. And, you know, it's just a really poor error really for the opening goal.
01:09I don't think there's any two ways about that. And after that, it was a really, really tough watch.
01:15And I think that we're increasingly seeing that teams have found a bit of a way to frustrate
01:20Sunderland at the stadium. It's reminding me a little bit of the moment of the old
01:24League One days, you know, where the opposition are defending quite a lot of the time in a low
01:29block, they're relying on set pieces, they're taking time out of the game. I mean, it's a
01:33long time since I've seen time wasting like that in the first half. But fair play to Hull, you know,
01:37they are where they are on the table. And I thought they defended that box really well,
01:41but they also kind of won most of the duels. I thought that Sunderland just looked off it,
01:45they never looked anywhere near their best. And I think that, you know, there's no need for panic
01:49in terms of where Sunderland are in terms of their playoff position. But I think especially at Hull,
01:53we're seeing that teams are finding ways now to frustrate them. And at the moment,
01:57Sunderland don't really have the answers. I think, you know, it's clear that whether it's
02:00tactical or personnel, you know, something needs to be freshened up, especially at home, I think.
02:06It's interesting that, isn't it, James? Because obviously Phil's talking about the home record
02:10then. Sunderland perhaps haven't been at their best at home for a while, but this was the first
02:13game that they lost at the Stadium of Light in the Championship this season. I mean, how did you
02:18read it? Was it a case of Sunderland never really getting out of first gear or was it a commendable
02:22performance from them? Like Phil, really, I thought the first seven, eight minutes, I was
02:29quite interested in Sunderland's performance. I thought it was good. And it's a little bit of a
02:32trend, actually, when Sunderland have started brightly at home for the first 10 minutes, they
02:36don't get that first goal and they sort of retreat a little bit into themselves. I thought Hull City's
02:42first counter attack after about their eighth or ninth minute mark really gave them a warning sign.
02:48I thought Hull did well. They battled manfully. I don't think they were sort of anything special,
02:53but they didn't have to be to beat Sunderland. I think had Sunderland performed to the proper
02:58potential, then they should be beating Hull City at home, given the two seasons the two clubs have
03:04had. I do agree with Phil. I think it needs freshening up. I think it's stagnated a little
03:08bit. I think it's a team going through the motions. Perhaps that Leeds-United game, that late
03:13winner, has had a little bit of a mental effect on them. Obviously, they put so much into that
03:18game, didn't they, from a defensive standpoint, to then have it snatched away from you in the last
03:22minute. That point, which would have been a good point on the road, let's face it. And all of a
03:27sudden, the automatic promotion spots do look a little way off now, don't they? Sunderland's
03:33playoff place is pretty much assured. You'd think and hope, anyway, it would take a monumental
03:39blow-up for Sunderland to lose that top six spot. Perhaps it's just a team that are
03:45going through the motions and in that middle ground of not being quite good enough for the top
03:49two, but being good enough for the playoffs. There's still a lot of football left to play.
03:55What I will say is that I would rather Sunderland had this little blip now than towards the end of
04:00the season, coming into the playoffs. But, yes, it's concerning. Let's not forget the home form
04:08has been really good this season. That's the first time they've lost at home in the Championship
04:12under Regis Le Brie. But in terms of the past couple of weeks slash month, it's been coming,
04:18hasn't it? Because, obviously, the Plymouth game, the Watford game, obviously, they did fine to beat
04:23Luton Town. You'd expect that. But it has just felt like you can't really celebrate that home record
04:29because it feels like it's been coming and they've dropped off a little bit. Whether that's
04:34to do with youth and experience in places, there's still a lot of Championship experience
04:40in that squad now. So, maybe that's a pure excuse. Maybe it comes down to squad building, lack of
04:45options, lack of numbers. Perhaps there's an element of Regis Le Brie still learning about
04:49the Championship, still learning about England in terms of his first season in the country. So,
04:54I think there's a lot at play. It's been such a positive season so far that you just don't want
05:00that goodwill to sort of melt away. So, you know, Sheffield Wednesday on Friday, that's not going to
05:05be an easy game because they're a decent side under a really, really good manager and they've
05:10got aspirations of their own this season. So, it's going to be a tough one to bounce back.
05:17It's going to take on a really significant hue now, isn't it, Phil? Because if Sunderland can
05:21go and get a result and maybe, I mean, stop the rocky dramatic race when we're talking about two
05:25defeats and one of them is against Leeds United. But if they can, you know, sort of maybe put the
05:29brakes on this slight slump in form, then really sort of ride themselves ahead of what we anticipate
05:34being a playoff campaign. But suddenly if they go and lose a third game on the bounce, then
05:39do alarm bells start ringing? I'm not sure it's quite alarm bells start ringing. I think most
05:45teams in the Championship go through a, you know, a spell or two throughout the season where the
05:49results dipped. And we saw that happen with Sunderland, I think it was around November time,
05:52and then they came back really strongly over the festive period to their credit.
05:56I think that, like, you know, while I think we should be ambitious about Sunderland, I think
06:01the reality is that the Championship is a two-tier division, you know, in terms of the parachute
06:05payment teams and the rest. And I think that, you know, Sunderland don't necessarily have the right
06:12to just be knocking out results against teams around them. And I think sometimes we underplay
06:16because Sunderland have done so well in the first half of the season. Like, we underplay a little
06:19bit sometimes the quality that the opposition can have. And I suppose in a way, you know, Hull would
06:24be an example of that because it's easy to forget that they finished comfortably above Sunderland
06:28last season and they were coming into this campaign firmly expecting to be in the playoffs.
06:31So I think it's important sometimes just to sort of reframe the debate a little bit in terms of
06:36where Sunderland have come from and what they're actually doing this season. That's not to mean
06:41that we can't look at the performances. You know, I think it's clear that a little something has to
06:44give and there needs to be some pressure because definitely this is, you know, not the Sunderland
06:48we saw at the start of the season. But I think that is as much down to the opposition as it is
06:52to Sunderland. I think at the start of the year, you know, we spoke about it in our reaction video
06:57over on YouTube after the game, me and James, that I think, like, if you think back to the way,
07:01for example, Sheffield Wednesday, who we played on Friday night, played at the Stadium Night at
07:04the start of the season. They played like a team who was coming to the Stadium Night thinking,
07:08you know, we want to finish in the playoffs this year. We were playing the team who finished 16th
07:12last year. We're going to have a go at them and Sunderland completely picked them off. And I think
07:16the opposition are not prepared to take that risk anymore. And at the moment, you know, Sunderland
07:20are just struggling to find the answers. It's interesting because the away performances have
07:24been pretty good. Like, I think you can almost scratch Leeds. I think they're a completely
07:28different animal. And the Middlesbrough performance was excellent. The Burnley performance was
07:33excellent, should have won. So in some ways at the moment, it feels like the balance is a little bit
07:37better away from home. And I don't think that's a surprise. We see time and time again in the season,
07:41Sunderland are better when they play on the counter-attack and their results are better when
07:44they have less of the ball. So maybe that's not something that should be too much of a surprise.
07:48So I still think like, although it's really, really disappointing because for a while there,
07:53it felt like we were right in this top-tier race and it was a distinct possibility. And it is gutting
07:57the way it's like fizzled out a little bit in recent weeks. I think we still have to have a
08:01little bit of perspective about where Sunderland are. You know, albeit I think the point, you know,
08:07the key thing is, as James has just mentioned, you don't want to meander in six, seven games where
08:11there's nothing to play for, because I think that's really, really dangerous territory for
08:15any team. Because once you lose momentum, you can't just switch back home. We've seen that
08:18with Sunderland, haven't we, in previous playoff campaigns. I think Phil and Jason, I think the
08:23like the major frustration just generally in the fan base, and I guess from us as well, is that
08:28we could see different scenarios in which Sunderland were right up there because of the
08:32late goals that have cost late points. There's been mitigation in almost like every game Sunderland
08:37have lost this season, perhaps before Hull. I mean, you know, the Coventry game, the Sheffield
08:43United away game, all of these points dropped. It's like Sunderland are so close and I think
08:48that's where a lot of the frustration is coming from, is that you could envisage a scenario in
08:52which Sunderland were right up there. I think it's interesting as well, like I watched them,
08:58and I'm sure some people listening and watching did as well, I watched Burnley play
09:01Sheffield Wednesday on Friday night, and like they were really average and they won 4-0.
09:07And I just feel like that's the different kind of level, like we haven't, I think Sunderland
09:13have been amazing this season, but how many games have they won by more than one goal?
09:16Like not very many. I just think maybe that, whether it's like a squad depth thing, whether
09:21it's like an individual quality thing, whatever it is, I think like it was quite telling to me
09:27watching Burnley play, in my opinion, pretty poorly and win 4-0 at home. Like that isn't just,
09:32Sunderland don't seem to have that in their locker this season. And I think that's probably why,
09:36you know, we've seen it swing back the other way at times where I think if the games are
09:41consistently really, really tight, I think it's really difficult to just keep winning over and
09:44over and over again. You know, I know I accept Burnley haven't scored four goals very often
09:49this season, but I just think that maybe showed a little bit of a difference that like, I think
09:53over time as the season develops, we're probably seeing that Sunderland are at the very top of the
09:57next tier of teams. I think that's probably where this team is now in terms of its squad depth,
10:02in terms of where the players are individually. In some ways, I think we can still be really
10:08excited because I don't think there's anything to fear if it does end up in the playoffs,
10:11as in there's only one team who I feel confident that are better than Sunderland from what I've
10:15seen this season, and that's Leeds, and they're not going to be in the playoffs in my opinion.
10:18So I still think there's absolutely like loads of room for positivity. I just think we're seeing
10:23maybe like reality hit home a little bit, just in terms of like where this squad actually is at this
10:29point in time. And you're right to point that out, Phil, because I think it's since Oxford united at
10:34home, Sunderland have only won by a more than one goal margin once, and that was Luton Town at home
10:39the other weekend, which is, you know, it tells its own story.
10:43It's a crazy start that, isn't it? And then when you consider the fact that Sunderland have
10:46still been able to maintain what was ostensibly a top two push for so long, I mean, obviously
10:52still a lot of points to be played for, they're currently eight points away from the top two,
10:56and Sheffield United play Leeds on Monday evening. So, you know, they're not entirely out of it,
11:01but I think if we're going to be a little bit realistic, it looks like a huge gap to be bridging.
11:05But I mean, I would absolutely echo what you say there, Phil. I genuinely can't think of
11:12too many games, and certainly with the exception of Leeds, nor clubs who Sunderland have been
11:18consistently outplayed by this season. And I think that, you know, when you look at,
11:22obviously it's difficult to know who's going to sort of squeeze into those fifth and sixth spots,
11:26but certainly if you're looking at a Sheffield United or a Burnley, who you would presume
11:31will probably take third at this stage, I absolutely agree. I don't think Sunderland
11:35necessarily have anything to fear. That's not to say that they'd go out and trounce either of them,
11:40but, you know, they would certainly give them a very good contest over the course of two legs in
11:45a playoff semi-final. So, you know, or rather in a playoff final, I guess depending on how it went
11:50with the fourth and fifth and your third and sixth, wouldn't it? But anyway, getting into
11:54the game on Saturday, obviously it was a really disappointing goal from Sunderland's point of
11:59view, which decided it, a real error, I think it's fair to say, from Anthony Patterson. I mean,
12:05he's proven to be something of a divisive figure this season, isn't he, Phil? Because when he's
12:10brilliant, he's absolutely brilliant, but there are still certain sections of the fan base who
12:15seem to be quite dissatisfied with some of his output. I'm just sort of interested to get
12:19your opinion on where Anthony Patterson currently is as Sunderland's number one goalkeeper.
12:24Yeah, I mean, me and James spoke about this on the YouTube video after the game in terms of,
12:28like, I think sometimes when something like that happens in a game, it kind of brings home
12:33how few, like, big errors Anthony Patterson makes. And like, I know there's, you know,
12:38I think it's been obvious since he came into the team that his distribution, he's probably
12:43not at the same level as some of the other more, like, modern goalkeepers, inverted commas,
12:47if you like. And that's been something that's sort of ongoing for a period of time. I think
12:51generally where Patterson has, in my opinion, I think inarguably been very, very good since he
12:56came into the team is that he makes very, very, very few errors and his shots often can be
12:59exceptional. And I think that's always been a really strong base. I think that he's had, like,
13:05a bad week. I think that's very obvious because I think, although, you know, watching it live,
13:09I didn't necessarily appreciate it, but watching the replay back, probably that Leeds United
13:13winner should be cut out by the goalkeeper before Stroke heads it in. And I think Saturday is one
13:17of those where I know, like, obviously it's not ideal that Robert seems to get a little flick on
13:21it just in front of him, but I think realistically you expect a championship goalkeeper to deal with
13:25that. So I have slightly mixed opinions on it, and I definitely don't think at the moment
13:29Patterson's in the form that he was in when he first came inside in League One, or even probably
13:34in the first season of the championship, where I think at times he was playing really, really well.
13:38And that's, like, definitely a concern. But I don't think he, in my opinion, has made too many
13:43errors leading to goals. I think if you look at the statistics, sort of championship goalkeepers,
13:48shot stopping numbers, how they perform against XG, Patterson's pretty much in the middle.
13:54And that, to me, seems to fit with what I think his performance level has been this season. I don't
13:59believe he's been a significant negative on the summer team by any stretch of the imagination,
14:03but definitely I don't think he's quite been in the best form that we've seen. So I think it's
14:07something to think about, sort of, going forward. And Lebris, in his post-match press conference,
14:12he was pretty clear that, you know, he's reviewing, you know, these, he called them silly
14:16mistakes. I don't think that's just Patterson. I think there'll be other, sort of, players who
14:19are in that category. But it's going to be interesting to see how it develops over the
14:22next few weeks. For me, I think, like, that's something you've got to stick with Patterson at
14:25this moment in time and trust him. I think he's been good for a pretty long period of time. I
14:29think you've got to let him try and play through this little dip in form.
14:36I mean, how do you see it, James? Because obviously one of the biggest things that's
14:39often levelled at Sunderland, rather, in terms of that squad depth, is that
14:43while Simon Moua has done admirably, in my opinion, when he's been asked to deputise
14:48for Patterson, I don't think many people see him as a, sort of, genuine, long-term, first-choice
14:53option. Do you think it's fair to suggest that Sunderland might need a little bit more competition
14:57for him going forward? I have really mixed feelings about this because it's obviously
15:01really beneficial for a goalkeeper to be handed the keys to the car, isn't it, really? You want
15:05consistency. You want a developing relationship with your back five, your back six, including the
15:11goalkeeper. So, in terms of that, like, I wouldn't do anything drastic. I wouldn't drop Patterson or
15:16anything like that, but I do think there's a separate conversation to be had around competition.
15:20Obviously, he had Alex Bass behind him, Nathan Bishop. Did they really push him? Perhaps not.
15:25Simon Moua is probably a little bit of an upgrade on those two, but is he ever realistically going
15:29to get in the team unless Patterson's out injured? Probably not. I think, in terms of Patterson
15:34himself, I agree with a lot of what Phil said. I think we're always a little bit harsher on our
15:39own players as well, and there's that familiarity thing, in a sense, that he's been in the team for
15:44a long, long time. I'm not trying to sort of mitigate his form because I think he has had a
15:48little bit of a dip, and to the point earlier, I just feel like he's stagnated a little bit. I think
15:53when he first came into the team, his development was really stark. He seemed to be on a real upward
15:58trajectory. That seems to have sort of levelled out since we got to the Championship.
16:02At the beginning of the season, when his kicking was criticised and the command of his area was
16:07criticised, I didn't think it was as big a deal as people were making out, but just as the season's
16:13gone on, the grumblings have got a little bit louder, and I think, probably without having
16:19spoken to him at all, that it's probably mentally in his head a little bit. I think we probably
16:24underestimate, especially with local players, how much they read and see on social media and
16:30articles and from fans and radio talkings and whatnot. So, it just feels like it's become a
16:36little bit of a mental block for him and his kicking's not working as well as it has done in
16:40the past. The command of his area looks to have dropped a little bit of confidence. There's a few
16:44grumblings in the stadium, but I think you have to stick with him, to be honest. I don't think
16:49you sort of drop him heading into a potential playoff campaign. I think he will come good,
16:54and I do think his shot stop is excellent, and hopefully he can get his head back in the game,
17:00because I genuinely think that he will need that vote of confidence from his head coach
17:04going forward. I think he looks to me like a bit of a confidence player,
17:08but as I say, whether he's been challenged enough in his two and a half seasons in the
17:13Championship in terms of a really capable No. 2, I don't know. There's flip sides to that as well,
17:20though, because Anthony Patterson's probably a multi-million pound player now. Had he been in
17:25and out the side, would he have developed as well as he has done? He had to have that vote of
17:30confidence shown in him initially, didn't he? But there's a lot to talk about, and perhaps it's
17:37one for the summer as well. That situation might get looked at in terms of Sunderland's No. 2.
17:42Just quickly on this, I was just getting the stats up from fbref.com, which is a really good
17:47stats website. In terms of his rates, basically how goalkeepers perform against the XG that
17:55opposition players are producing, and Anthony Patterson is just in the green here, so he's
17:59doing better than the data would suggest a goalkeeper would do against the quality of
18:03opposition. That has him eighth in the Championship for how he performs shot-stopping-wise,
18:09and I'm just looking here in terms of percentage of crosses that he stops or claims. He's 12th in
18:13the division, so I think that's quite useful in terms of putting a little bit of perspective on
18:18this. If there's a perception that Anthony Patterson's holding Sunderland back or he's
18:23costing the team regularly, the statistics do not bear that out whatsoever. They suggest that he's
18:28a very, very solid and good Championship goalkeeper. That's certainly how I perceive it,
18:31albeit he's had a bad week. That's why I think it's worth, at this moment in time,
18:36completely sticking with him and giving him that confidence. In terms of how that develops in the
18:41long term, that's probably a separate issue, but I think for now, whatever people's opinions are of
18:47him as a goalkeeper at the moment, these areas are a little bit of a blip. I think, from my view,
18:52you've got to stick with him for the time being and let him just work his way through it.
18:56I think you kill it on him if you don't stick with him, to be honest, Jase. You've got to.
19:02Yeah, I would absolutely echo that. I think part of the thing with Patterson as well,
19:06from my point of view, is that I think there are times where he fails the eye test,
19:12for want of a better way of putting it. There are times where the ball will get played back to him
19:15and he maybe sort of delete dalleys just a second and he nine times out of ten gets away with it,
19:21plays the ball out, finds man, whatever it might be, but it doesn't always fill you with a certain
19:27amount of assurance that I think other goalkeepers might, in terms of the way that they
19:31look on the pitch, that sort of orthodox manner in which they conduct themselves. And I do think
19:35that that probably has a large bearing on this sort of general perception that a lot of the
19:41fan base have on him. And like Phil says, when you then go and then look at the figures behind
19:47that and dig a little deeper, I don't think it's particularly justified at all. It's obviously not
19:52a great week for him, but certainly nothing to suggest that he's having some sort of calamity
19:58this campaign, as I feel some people would sort of lead you to believe. Obviously, another couple
20:04of potential disappointments for Sunday and the weekend as well. Dan Ballard and Enzo Lefebvre
20:10both going off with apparent hamstring issues, Phil. I mean, I appreciate that it's probably
20:16a little bit early for us to be knowing the full extent of that. I know the Brits said that he was
20:20sort of going to have to wait a day or two before they had a diagnosis, but it didn't look good for
20:24Sunday, did it? I think with hamstring injuries, you've always got to grace yourself for a bit of
20:29a bad one, haven't you? And hope that you get a pleasant surprise. And I think certainly for
20:35Ballard, you can see that he left the pitch in distress, really. I know he's had a lot of injury
20:39issues this season, but the early indications weren't great weather. And I think, you know,
20:45in some ways, that's almost as big a concern as the result, really, because we were only just
20:49getting to a point where you actually felt that for the first time in a while, potentially even
20:53for the full season, really, we actually had sort of game-changing players on the bench.
20:59And when we talk about the fatigue issues and we talk about the late goals, all this kind of stuff,
21:03I think that's been one of the main reasons this season is that, you know, we talked about it a lot
21:07on this podcast, the opposition have consistently had more options on the bench. So, it's a really,
21:12really worrying one that not in terms of the replacements, because Romain Mundel and Chris
21:17Mepham are probably about two. You couldn't really wish to bring in two players as good as that to
21:22your starting XI when you have injuries, really, at this level. It's more just what it then means,
21:25again, for the bench and the depth of the squad and the fatigue. So, yeah, it's a huge concern.
21:30As I say, we don't know yet. So, we don't want to speculate too much. But, you know,
21:34hamstring injuries are always a concern. And, you know, losing the fame, particularly,
21:40would just be sad because it feels like, you know, it's one of the best things at the moment
21:43about watching someone that is going insane doing this thing. And especially, I feel kind of
21:47responsible because I've done an article on Friday saying how exciting it was that we could have
21:51Mundel out wide and Le Fay in the middle. And, of course, before that happened,
21:55Le Fay's done his hamstring. So, that feels like it's maybe my bad, but it doesn't really feel
22:00kind of... I know every club thinks they're cursed with injuries, like literally every football team
22:04in the world thinks they're cursed with injuries. It just happens as part of the game. But with
22:08Sunderland this season, it does feel like it kind of sums it up a bit when, you know, it felt like
22:13we were potentially getting close to the point where Le Bris could name the strongest team in
22:16bench and potentially it's gone up in smoke. But, yeah, fingers crossed, maybe, you know,
22:21it's precautionary and that it pays off. Yeah, I mean, you're on about cursing Enzo Le Fay.
22:27I asked Le Bris about Dan Ballard in his press conference and how pleased he was with him on
22:32Thursday. So, I think between the two of us, you might have a joint responsibility,
22:36to be honest with you. I mean, of all the players, James, and obviously, you know,
22:41Sunderland have had their real injury issues at times this season. But as Phil sort of alluded
22:45to there, Dan Ballard's only just starting to really find his rhythm again after a really sort
22:51of, you know, interrupted season, repeatedly being injured with little things here and there.
22:56Enzo Le Fay was still yet to see him in his best position, really, for Sunderland. And, you know,
23:02it would be, and again, without speculating too much, but if they were to then miss a few weeks
23:07of the season now, it would be a particularly cruel duel for Sunderland to lose at this particular
23:13point in the campaign. Yeah, I think so. Dan Ballard's a player I really liked. I think if
23:18it wasn't for his injury issues, he could potentially already be in the Premier League
23:23already, to be honest. I think he's been that good when fit for Sunderland.
23:26I thought when he came back as well, he'd really started to take the ball out of defence.
23:30I thought he'd be an excellent, you know, a great option to have, keeping Chris Mepham out the
23:34sides, no mean feat, because he's been excellent this season. Enzo Le Fay, it's like we can't have
23:39nice things at Sunderland, isn't it? As soon as we get something nice, then, you know, something's
23:43got to get taken away. I was really looking forward to seeing him in the middle with Mundell
23:47out wide. Hopefully, as Phil says, it's just precautionary and he's all right, or he can
23:52recover in a couple of weeks. I think the one saving grace is that Mundell is sort of on the
23:57way back, obviously came on against Hull City, so how close he is to starting the game, I'm not sure.
24:04Alan Brown as well, another saving grace. I know he didn't get on, but at least he's now an option
24:08in the middle. You know, you could talk about Jenson Sealt as well as a sort of Ballard
24:14replacement, maybe he's coming in towards the final part of the season. So, there are players
24:18there, but as Phil says, it's not ideal and a big shame, especially for both of them, really,
24:25because obviously Ballard's had his injury issues, hasn't he? He missed the pre-season and Le Fay's
24:30just started to really get into his groove. And as you say, we haven't really seen him in his best
24:35position yet and I think we were all looking forward to that. So, yeah, it does feel like
24:41bad luck. I mean, was it the Coventry game when Mundell and Brown went off in the same phase of
24:45play? I know it wasn't exactly the same phase of play, but it felt like that didn't it against
24:50Hull City, where it was like, well, we're losing, everything's going wrong. I know Coventry, we
24:54obviously shipped the two goals, but it's just Sunderland doing a Sunderland, isn't it? When it
24:59rains, it pours. It very much felt like that on the weekend. I wanted to ask you about Romain
25:05Mundell, Phil, because obviously not ideal circumstances for him to be making his return,
25:10but he did get on the pitch on Saturday after a long absence and, you know, again, wasn't necessarily
25:16able to influence the game in the sense that someone weren't able to get anything out of it.
25:19But I thought that there were flashes of the player that we saw prior to his injury and also
25:25flashes of the style of play that Sunderland had potentially really missed since he's been
25:29absent from the side. Yeah, I agree. I thought he had a really, really positive impact. I thought
25:34he probably fizzled out a little bit towards the end of the game, but obviously you would
25:37expect that when he literally hasn't played any competitive football since November, isn't it? So
25:42I think that's a huge positive going forward. As James says, the disappointment and frustration is
25:46you felt that him coming back into the side, you know, would allow Le Fay to play through the
25:51middle. And although Chris Riggs being outstanding this season, I think you can see that he is
25:55probably ready for a bit of a breather. And that just felt like such a simple and an obvious way
26:00of freshening things up. So that is a real blow. But yeah, I think that Mundell's return is huge.
26:06I think, you know, we always say that you are a better player when you're out the team. I think
26:10that's always kind of the case. But with Mundell, I think the way that he picked up sort of the
26:14baton from Jack Clarke was really impressive earlier this season. You know, not just his
26:19ability to go past players, but to score goals. And I think that's one, if we're looking for
26:24green shoots going forward, I think there are quite a few and Mundell's one of them.
26:27And especially when you add on the fact that Tommy Watson's back in full training next week,
26:31this week, sorry. So there you've got two actual left wingers, which I think is really important
26:35for Sunderland because, you know, those explosive wingers are such a key part of how they're going
26:39to play. So, you know, obviously Watson's been out like Mundell for a while. So I'm not suggesting
26:44he's going to come sort of straight into the team, but you've got two players there who
26:47can definitely bring something in the coming weeks. And that's obviously going to be doubly
26:51important if Le Fay is out for a little while, which, you know, looks like could well be the case.
26:58It's something that you both mentioned. I'll come to you on it first, though, James. Obviously,
27:02the potential for Regis Lopresti to sort of freshen things up a little bit against Sheffield
27:06Wednesday. Maybe things are looking a little bit stale in certain aspects of the pitch for
27:10Sunderland. I mean, if it was up to you, not to put you on the spot too much, but what sort of
27:15changes would you be thinking about making going into that game? Maybe you just give it a little
27:19bit of something different at Hillsborough. Oh, now you're asking. Now you are asking.
27:24You've caught us on the hop here, let me think. If Mundell's fit enough to start, I would be
27:29tempted to throw him in there. But with the caveat that you don't really want to rush him back.
27:35So I wouldn't be surprised if he's on the bench. I think the major one for me would be just giving
27:40Chris Rigg a little bit of a rest. I think you mentioned the words I test the other
27:47couple of minutes ago, Jason. I just think we could all sort of see what's happening with Rigg
27:53in a sense that he's playing a lot of football. It's his first proper full season in terms of
27:57competing from the beginning of it to the end of it. I think when Dan Neil broke into the team,
28:03he experienced a similar thing in League One. Callum Doyle, Joe Bellingham last season.
28:08I think Sunderland have had a habit and a tendency to overplay some of these young players at times.
28:15I guess the flip side to the argument would be that they're sort of preparing them for the rigours
28:19of senior men's football over the course of a season. So that would be one I would definitely
28:23look at. Could Perveda come in and perhaps give Roberts a game out of the side? Possibly.
28:29Dennis Sergeant, I think for me, has looked a little jaded. Could you push Luke O'Neill out?
28:35And then to put that at two, do you play in the middle? Mepham would come back in.
28:38It would need a bit of a thought. Milan Aleksic, you probably need to give him a few more minutes
28:44at some point in the middle. Could Leo Hjelda play for a game at centre-back? I don't know.
28:48I would personally make a couple of changes, maybe three or four, coming into the Sheffield
28:53Wednesday game. But not to second-guess Regis Fabrice too much, but I don't know if he'll do
28:58that because he talks about his connections, he talks about the game model, he talks about
29:02being connected with the team. I just can't see him making wholesale changes. Everything we know
29:07about him, everything we've heard from him is just like, no, I'm not going to do that.
29:13I can't work out if you've made 11 changes or none there, James.
29:16Well, I'm going through some of the changes that could be made, but I think I would only make two
29:21or three, and I think Regis should make one. I think as well, it goes back to a little bit of
29:29what we were saying earlier in the podcast. I think especially away from home, there's probably,
29:33from what we've seen recently, there might be less of a need to make loads and loads of changes.
29:37Sunderland obviously don't have a midweek game, so there is a little bit of recovery time there.
29:41I think for me, ideally, what you would have done is started Mundo. You can always bring him off
29:45later in the game if you need to and play Le Fay. Obviously, it looks like it's going to be
29:48really difficult to do that. So I think, although I'm definitely not one who believes that just
29:55changing to a 4-4-2 is going to have all the answers and suddenly make Sunderland play a
29:58completely different team, I think I'm looking at it now, assuming Le Fay is out. I think Leander's
30:03got to come in for a rig. I think that's just the obvious change to make. You do have Alan Brown
30:08there. Could he come straight back into the start of the XI? I would go make one of those changes,
30:12either Brown or Leander. Obviously, La Brice will have a much better understanding of where
30:15Brown is in this recovery. So that's one change I would definitely make. I think Mundo probably
30:21has to start just because of the lack of options. But I agree with James in that I don't think you
30:25want to make too many changes all at once because you don't want to disrupt the balance of the team
30:29too much. I think if Le Fay and Ballard are injured, which we suspect they probably will be,
30:34then that's already two changes. So I can't see him making more than, say, three.
30:38And I think definitely when you look at the back-to-back home games,
30:42like Perveda, I think will start one of those games. I think that'll be an opportunity to
30:46Wes Roberts. I think Oleksij could start one of those games. But I think Friday might come a
30:50little bit soon to be making that level of changes just because of the injuries that
30:54we've already mentioned. But I think Leander or Brown, or I guess Sam Ed as well for Rigg,
30:59I think that's definitely one change that we can all see. It's time to make it and let's get
31:03Rigg back to where he was at the start of the season, you know, before the playoffs,
31:06if that's what it comes to. It's interesting that neither of us have mentioned Sally,
31:11Sam Dulce, Sam Ed in that. I did at the end. I covered myself.
31:17No, I'm not writing them off. That's not your headline if you listen to anybody.
31:24Right, I think we should probably call it a day there before we do start making headlines.
31:28That's all we've got time for from this week's show. Join us again next week when we'll be
31:32discussing all the latest Sunday news and developments. In the meantime, follow all
31:35the latest Blackhats news on the Southern Depot or you can give us a follow on social media as
31:39well. Thanks to James. Thanks to Phil. Thanks to you for listening. We'll see you next week.