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00:00High noon, Jones and Keefe here on WEEI. It's a Wednesday. You know what time that means.
00:08It's Pure Hoops with Terp, Justin Turpin, WEEI. You got questions for Terp, send them in on Twitter at Jones, WEEI at Keefe21.
00:17You can also dial us up, 617-779-7937. What sort of big picture moves could the Celtics make now that Jason Tatum is going to be sidelined,
00:27as you hear from Shams there, for a long period of time? How competitive can the Celtics be without Jason Tatum next year?
00:33And what chances do they have against the Knicks beginning with Game 5 tonight?
00:38Again, all that at 617-779-7937. Terp, you're in the building for Game 4 at MSG.
00:44What was the atmosphere like when you saw Tatum crumpled in a heap on the floor?
00:48Yeah, it was like a feeling of emptiness after. I don't think everyone really knew the extent when he first went down.
00:53It was just you saw him kind of grabbing at his ankle because on the other end, OG was throwing down a dunk.
00:58So everyone was kind of looking at that. But when you see him writhing around and calling a timeout himself,
01:03you knew it was something more serious than just an ankle sprain or something.
01:07How do you think the team responds?
01:08That's the thing is like, I think this team, you mentioned it earlier, that they're just so talented
01:13and that they have plenty more to still make this competitive.
01:16But just losing and they understand like kind of what's at stake beyond just losing Tatum,
01:21like what this means for their future together.
01:23And they're still down three to one, like only 12 teams have climbed out of that hole.
01:28So what they're facing is already hard enough.
01:30So I think they understand what's against them.
01:32But I mean, this team for a team that prides itself on just being so focused on game by game,
01:37like focusing on the mental aspect, I expect them to come out and at least give it a shot.
01:42Being stylistically, it'll be different without Tatum.
01:44And if so, how so?
01:45Yeah, for sure.
01:46I mean, Jalen Brown's probably the guy that's going to run your offense now.
01:49And they play vastly different.
01:51Like Jason wants to play slow, whereas Jalen's one of the best transition players in the league.
01:55So it's going to look different.
01:56And in a way, Jalen running the offense could be a good thing for the Celtics in this series.
02:01Just get out and run.
02:02Play quick.
02:03Because playing slow really hasn't worked at all times this series.
02:06What do you think the starting lineup will be?
02:07Yeah, keep going back and forth with this.
02:09I think Pritchard should start.
02:11I mean, you're 20 shots a game that you need to make up for now
02:13with Jason being out.
02:14And I think Pritchard's a good option for that.
02:17He's been one of your most efficient scorers this postseason.
02:20But then again, when you're looking at it,
02:21if Kristaps Porzingis, and he looked better in game four.
02:24He still wasn't great, but looked better.
02:26If he's good enough to start, I think Hauser will start instead of Pritchard.
02:30So that's also what I think if Hauser is active.
02:34He's going to play.
02:35I know I said that the other day too, but he's probable.
02:37But that's probably the most likely lineup that Missoula would go with.
02:42I'm with you though.
02:42I want Porzingis back in the lineup.
02:44I want Pritchard in there.
02:46Let's get your best five out there.
02:47Horford's off the bench.
02:48Hauser can mix in off the bench.
02:50Maybe there's some Cornette.
02:51Maybe a Shireman cameo or a Torrey Craig cameo.
02:53Like, I don't know.
02:54But I would lean in on those five.
02:56That's how I want them to start.
02:57But I doubt they will.
02:59Yeah, I have a feeling if Porzingis is good enough to go,
03:02he's going to start.
03:03And if they start with a double big,
03:04they're going to put Hauser in there instead of Pritchard.
03:07What are the chances this is?
03:08I mean, if they lose, Porzingis last game with the Celtics.
03:11I mean, we were talking about that before this injury.
03:13Right.
03:14And all of it's now, again, like when this group was put together
03:17and this roster was constructed,
03:19it was with the idea of there is an expiration date.
03:21Like, this isn't something that's going to be a half-decade,
03:24decade-long team.
03:25Like, they knew this was, you get one, two, three.
03:29That's it.
03:29That's all you got.
03:30You got that many years to make a run.
03:32And thankfully they got one last year.
03:34But it was already a conversation we were having.
03:36And now when you're looking at it,
03:37this starting five, including Tatum next year,
03:39is going to cost this new ownership group $200 million.
03:42And then you got all the luxury taxes.
03:44The roster to keep in place next year is going to cost a half a billion dollars.
03:48Are they going to do that for a team that Jason Tatum cannot play on?
03:51Wick Grossbeck told the Greg Hill Show last month
03:54that you cannot live in the second apron.
03:56That's just the reality.
03:57And you and we all have our thoughts on it,
03:59that yes, the luxury tax has a part of that.
04:01But he referenced specifically the basketball penalties.
04:04So it's only a matter of time until they start getting out of this.
04:07At first, I thought they were going to do it in increments.
04:09But are they as inclined to do it in increments now
04:11when you're looking at it like Al Horford, he's a free agent.
04:14If Tatum misses all next year,
04:15he's going to be 40 by the next time Tatum plays.
04:18Is it worth keeping him?
04:19I mean, is he going to sign for a minimum deal?
04:21Like, that's something.
04:22Drew Holiday is going to be 36 when Tatum comes back
04:24if he misses all next year.
04:25So it changes the trajectory of everything.
04:28Next time Tatum plays with the Celtics,
04:30I feel like Brown, Pritchard, maybe White will be there
04:35and nobody else will be.
04:37It feels like Hauser's one that's on the chopping block.
04:39He'll be gone.
04:39He won $80 million in real money for him
04:41and his extension kicks in next year.
04:43Because Porzingis, even if they keep him, his contract's up.
04:46Holiday is just old.
04:48He's still on a contract.
04:49He's old.
04:50And then Horford's up.
04:50Horford's here to here.
04:51He might not want to come back.
04:52Right.
04:52So I think it's almost easy to think all those guys.
04:54And they also have to look at it as like,
04:56well, if Horford's going to be 40 next time he plays,
04:58do you prioritize signing Cornette now?
05:00Like, that's a reality you have to have.
05:02He's 10 years younger than him.
05:03And Cornette has been a player they really like
05:05that's been really good and effective in this offense.
05:07Like, I don't know.
05:09Like, everything changes with this team.
05:10Where do you start?
05:11We just mentioned Porzingis.
05:13But where do you start?
05:14Who's the first guy?
05:16Horford's his own call.
05:17He's a free agent.
05:18Who's the first guy?
05:19Well, let me rephrase.
05:20Out of Horford and Holiday.
05:23Sorry, Porzingis and Holiday.
05:25I would have said Porzingis was the guy
05:27if Tatum's healthy next year and back.
05:29They've got to peel off pieces.
05:30They're going to get below the luxury tax.
05:32I would have said Porzingis was the guy to go.
05:34I was annoyed and fatigued by the whole experience.
05:39Now, knowing Tatum's going to be out for a year plus,
05:41I think I actually,
05:42I'd rather have Porzingis with Jalen next year.
05:44I'd move Holiday now.
05:46I would agree,
05:47mainly because of just how the roster's constructed now.
05:49Because Al Horford's your one free agent,
05:51so that's out of your control.
05:52Luke Cornett's turning 30.
05:53Like, is he going to try to take a deal somewhere
05:55where he can cash in before it's too late?
05:57He took a minimum deal to come back last year,
05:59declined more money elsewhere to come back here.
06:02Maybe he has to cash in.
06:03So what are you looking at at your bigs then?
06:05Porzingis and Cata?
06:06Like, you're going to need Porzingis,
06:08and obviously they're going to need more help there as well.
06:10And if you look at the guards,
06:11though, you've got Peyton Pritchard, Derek White,
06:13and, you know, Drew, you can,
06:15Peyton can start.
06:16So I think they're in a better shape now with the guards
06:19than they would be with the bigs.
06:21And the money's not much of a difference.
06:22I think Holiday's do, like, a little over a million.
06:25Yeah, he has more term,
06:26but the money for next year is not that different.
06:28For next year's money,
06:29I think it's like a matter of like a million
06:30or a little bit more.
06:31So looking at just where the roster is
06:34in terms of construction,
06:35it would make more sense to me to keep Porzingis.
06:37Do you think Brad Stevens is in it for the long haul?
06:40Just because he's really, really good at it.
06:43Right.
06:44He pretty quickly got them into a title contender.
06:46All this idea of, like, shedding salary,
06:49and now you have to go through a full season
06:50without Jason Tatum.
06:53Any inkling if he gets the, like,
06:55maybe I want to coach again.
06:56Maybe, like, I did this, I want a title.
06:58This seems like it's going to be insane
06:59to sort of do, like, another kind of,
07:01I don't want to call it a rebuild,
07:03but sort of like a remodel of the team.
07:05Is he up for that?
07:06It's funny because he's never really expressed that, right?
07:08He's always kind of said that he's happy in the role.
07:10Of course it's going to come up.
07:11It's natural.
07:12Like, he's a younger guy,
07:13was obviously a phenomenal coach when he was a coach.
07:15Do you agree with that, Jones?
07:16He was a great coach.
07:16I think he was fine.
07:17Yeah, he was a fine coach.
07:17He was, like, a tremendous college coach.
07:19I think Udoko was a better coach.
07:21Yeah.
07:21I think Missoula, honestly, might be a better coach.
07:23I would agree with that.
07:24But he is a coach that can coach in the NBA.
07:26Like, teams would line up to give him so much.
07:28I think college teams would jump at it.
07:30NBA teams would probably take him, too.
07:31Yeah.
07:31People usually look at, too.
07:32It's like, oh, he'd go back to the collegiate level.
07:34Yeah, yeah, yeah.
07:34So, yeah, I mean, it's always an option,
07:36so that's why it comes up.
07:37But he's, I don't think, to my knowledge at least,
07:39he's never expressed that he wants to go back into coaching.
07:41And I think at this point, he wants...
07:43The lifestyle's way better as a front office executive
07:45than a coach in college.
07:46And I feel like he's going to embrace this challenge.
07:48Like, look, he's done a great job building this roster.
07:51Everyone has the faith in him.
07:52And the way even Wick Rosbeck talked about it last month again
07:55with the Greg Hill show, when he was like,
07:57there's no one else I'd rather have running this than Brad Stevens,
08:00it seems like them two have, like, this is it.
08:02This is going to be a partnership moving forward.
08:04And Brad Stevens is going to be the one to get them out of this.
08:06And I don't think coaching's really on his mind.
08:09We're talking to Justin Turpin.
08:10Pure hoops, high noon.
08:12Are we going pure hoops still or somber hoops?
08:14Sad hoops.
08:14Well, it's a little more somber and sad today.
08:17But they're still in it.
08:18They're still pure.
08:19There's still a playoff game to be played tonight, fellas.
08:21It's a good point.
08:22Which we both think they're going to win.
08:24Do you think they win tonight?
08:25I do think they win tonight.
08:26Yeah, winning the series is going to be tough.
08:28Celtics team hasn't done it since the 80s.
08:29And the thing is, they had Larry Bird averaging, like, 26, 11, and 7.
08:33And now they're without their modern-day Larry Bird.
08:36So it's going to be difficult.
08:37And, again, only 12 teams have done it.
08:38Like, 4% of the teams that have faced this deficit.
08:41So it's going to be tough.
08:42But they're talented.
08:43And it's still the Knicks.
08:44Like, the Knicks have been very good in this series.
08:46We've been saying that for a while now.
08:47No, we have.
08:48But you said earlier, Terp, I think they win tonight.
08:52I think they can win the series.
08:54You know, predicting they're going to win the series is extreme.
08:56But I am predicting they win tonight.
08:59I'd be very disappointed if they don't.
09:00Send it back to New York.
09:01Put pressure on New York.
09:03I think the Celtics respond.
09:04Like, I expect that early.
09:05I expect them to come out.
09:06Great coming off a loss.
09:07So I expect that.
09:08I also expect the Knicks, human nature, we're up 3-1.
09:11They don't have Tatum.
09:12I expect the Knicks to let their foot off the accelerator a little bit.
09:15And I just don't fully trust the Knicks to close out the Celtics tonight.
09:19I also think in games, what put them in the hole was just simply missing shots.
09:23Like, they were getting these wide-open looks.
09:24And there was more to it, like maybe questionable decisions down the stretch, turning the ball over, not moving the ball, whatever it may be.
09:30And as good of a player and as talented of a player as Tatum is, he was in the middle of all of that.
09:34Yeah.
09:35And they've been good without him.
09:37Like, there's enough talent to get by.
09:39And I think in game four, the Knicks just straight up beat the Celtics.
09:42They played better.
09:43I mean, they shot 66% in the second half.
09:45And part of that was because of the Celtics, like how they were playing.
09:49Like, they completely got away from their identity.
09:51A team that after they went down 0-3 to Miami, Joe Mazzula came in in his second year and, like, they wanted to pride themselves on the defensive end.
09:57They completely got away from that in game four.
10:00They also just weren't focusing on the details that they emphasize all the time.
10:04Turning the ball over.
10:05Offensive rebounds.
10:05If you take away six of their offensive rebounds, the Celtics probably win game four, even before Tatum goes down.
10:11So they're just going to get back to playing there, Brent.
10:13That's all much more important now without Jason Tatum than it was then.
10:17What was the bigger issue in game five?
10:20Was it, or I guess game four, was it just the defense being so bad all of a sudden?
10:25Or was it nobody other than Tatum scoring?
10:28When you shoot 66% in the second half of an NBA game, like, that's incredible.
10:33Like, how the defense was that bad for a team, again, that prides itself defensively was a problem.
10:38And I also think that led to their offense.
10:40Like, when you're not getting stops, you're playing against a set defense, it's harder to score.
10:45And Joe Mazzula always emphasizes that to that team, that, like, it's offensive defense are just so connected.
10:50And you can't have one without the other.
10:52So when their defense is allowing, every time down the floor they're allowing points, they're playing against a set defense, it's tough.
10:59What are your personal expectations for Porzingis?
11:02I mean, they're going to need him really bad to step up.
11:04I mentioned it earlier.
11:05I thought he was better in game four.
11:06He played the most minutes he's played this series.
11:09He seemed to be moving a little bit better.
11:11Still getting beat on rebounds by Deuce McBride, which you just can't have.
11:16You just can't have that.
11:17Also, that's really cool in New York when they're all like, Deuce, they shoot to three.
11:20I mean, that's pretty funny, but I mean, he looked better, but they need way more than him and way more from him.
11:26And he really hasn't had a signature aside from game one.
11:29And that was really only the first half.
11:31He hasn't really had a signature playoff game as a Celtic.
11:33Like, obviously, everyone, again, is going to point to game one of the finals.
11:37But that was the first half, and he burned hot.
11:39Like, there wasn't really much more to that.
11:41So they're going to need him to step up.
11:43He's been really underwhelming.
11:44And I don't think anyone would argue to the contrary.
11:47His signature moment is getting elbowed in the face.
11:49That's a signature moment in this post.
11:50In this post, he's a good one.
11:51Yeah.
11:52Anything Joe Mazzula can do specifically tonight?
11:55Because I think if they just lost the series with Tatum, there'd be a lot of, you know,
11:59wow, you guys failed to live up to expectation.
12:02And, you know, that's a bad failure of a season.
12:04And they did lose three games with Tatum.
12:06But as for tonight, I feel like if they lose tonight or tomorrow,
12:11how much blame do you think lands on Mazzula?
12:13I mean, a lot of it's going to land on him.
12:15It's just the reality.
12:16That's what comes with the territory of coaching one of the greater teams assembled,
12:20one of the most talented teams in the league, undoubtedly.
12:23Of course, it's going to fall back on the coach.
12:24And he's always kind of been under that spotlight ever since his first year.
12:28And some of it wavered when they won a championship.
12:30But some of it still lingers as well.
12:32So that's just the reality of sports, I think.
12:34Like, it's always going to come down to the coaches,
12:36especially when the team is this talented.
12:37But, I mean, from an Oden's standpoint,
12:41I'd like to see him go to Pritchard more tonight.
12:43Like, you need a scoring boost.
12:45That's what you need.
12:46And I think Pritchard's the guy that can provide that for them.
12:48Yeah.
12:48And energy.
12:49I mean, the team needs – they're going to need some energy.
12:51I think that would make a lot of sense.
12:52In a weird way, I think Mazzula gets some job security out of this.
12:55I'd agree.
12:56I don't think it was ever in doubt after this anyway,
12:59even if they lost with Tatum.
12:59If they got knocked out against New York and Tatum wanted him out,
13:02he's gone.
13:02No, but Tatum would have wanted him out.
13:03I'm just saying.
13:04But, like, if that happened, if Tatum ever gets sick of get up
13:08and gets sick of being told at the end of game, what was it, two,
13:13that he had a good shot and he didn't take it
13:15and he actually had a look – if Tatum gets sick of all that,
13:17Mazzula would be out.
13:18I think he's got some job security.
13:19I think it also extends it.
13:20So I think there's a little bit of that.
13:21But also what happens is next year they play it out.
13:23They're fine.
13:24Whereas if he failed to get to the finals two straight years,
13:28whether the players like him or not, they might have moved on.
13:30So not just for this year, next year as well.
13:32Yeah, I think Mazzula now has some, oddly enough, job security.
13:36Part of that could change with a new ownership.
13:38And granted, I don't think there's any worry to Joe's job security.
13:42But just saying, like, with the circumstances,
13:44with the new ownership group and Bill Chisholm and his wife
13:47have talked very favorably of Joe, I mean, maybe that changes.
13:50Like, maybe it changes with the new ownership.
13:52But I don't think there's any chance Joe's going anywhere.
13:55Tatum, I wouldn't expect back at any point next year.
13:59We've talked about Durant could have come back
14:01or there was some talk about him coming back the following postseason
14:03after his Achilles.
14:04He did not.
14:05Same thing with Klay Thompson.
14:07So Tatum's gone for a year.
14:08When he comes back, what kind of player can we expect?
14:12It's tough to tell.
14:13I mean, the numbers that you were looking at earlier
14:15and comparing and contrasting to other Achilles injuries in the league,
14:17it's not really a favorable look when you're looking at it.
14:20History is not quite on his side.
14:22But just because he is on the younger side,
14:24he's not one of the only younger guys to have it,
14:26but he's on the younger side.
14:27Can he still win an MVP?
14:29I know he hasn't, but can he win an MVP?
14:31That's the part that's interesting to me because you'll have to –
14:33he'll have to – when Benyama's coming,
14:35these younger players are coming, first of all.
14:37And second of all, he just has to get back to –
14:40I saw that look.
14:42Don't isolate that.
14:43Yeah, isolate it.
14:44The younger players are on the rise.
14:48So that's part of it.
14:49Turned it around for you there.
14:51That's much better.
14:52And also, it's getting back to just like reading the game at a high level.
14:54I think that's why he was jumping more towards MVP contention this year
14:58is because his assist numbers were up,
15:00and he's seen the game at such a high level.
15:02Now you have to, after a year off, get back to that, get your win back.
15:05So there's a lot that goes into it because I was in the camp
15:08that he was definitely going to win an MVP before this,
15:10and it's a little bit different.
15:12All right, next year, let's say either Porzingis or Holliday is off the team.
15:16What does a Jalen Brown-led Celtics team look like?
15:19I mean, looking at just – he's proven he can do it,
15:22and maybe not for a long stretch of time because we haven't seen that.
15:25That's been Jason Tatum's – probably his best trait is how he's always available.
15:29He's always on the floor.
15:30Nobody's played more games or minutes, including playoffs,
15:33since he got in the league.
15:34So we haven't really seen it.
15:35It's uncharted territory here that we're going to learn,
15:39but there still is enough.
15:40I don't see them ruffling the core of Jason Tatum, Derek White, and Jalen Brown,
15:45so you're going to have Derek White.
15:46You're going to have Peyton Pritchard.
15:47There's still going to be talent on this team.
15:49And to be honest, it's pretty easy to make the playoffs in the NBA.
15:53They are going to be a playoff team with or without Jason Tatum next year.
15:57So, I mean, I think this is it.
15:59This is what he wants, right?
16:00He's kind of craved for these moments, and I think any competitor does.
16:03I don't think that's independent than Jalen.
16:05I think everyone kind of wants these moments.
16:07You want a chance to step up, and this is it.
16:09Now Jalen gets a chance to prove his worth,
16:11and I think he was worth the Supermax, and now it's time to prove it.
16:16I think the goal next year should be, and it's tough because they're down 3-1 right now,
16:20so it's hard to be like, you've got to win a series without Tatum.
16:22Next year, the goal should be win a round without Tatum.
16:25I don't think that's an unreasonable expectation.
16:27Like my guy, Scottie Pippen.
16:27Yeah.
16:28That's my example.
16:28It's a great example, and I think that's reasonable.
16:31And I don't know if it's Holiday or Porzingis or maybe neither back,
16:35but the Celtics should be able to be a middle-of-the-pack playoff team
16:39in the East next year even without Tatum.
16:41So I think that's reasonable.
16:43One question here on the text line.
16:45It's a would-you-rather Wednesday.
16:46It's worth mixing in.
16:47Yeah, yeah.
16:48Would you rather lose tonight or lose into Game 7?
16:51I think that one's easy.
16:52Game 7.
16:53I'd say Game 7 as well.
16:55I mean, that means they won two games without Tatum.
16:57That shows a lot of fight.
16:58I'd be wildly disappointed.
16:59I mean, I don't know about you, Terp.
17:00Is it just so that it gets your hopes up that they're going to win?
17:02I think that's what the text was saying,
17:04like the emotional aspect of riding the wave and getting back into it
17:08instead of riding them off.
17:08Come on, I'll take that, though.
17:09Me too.
17:10They'd tell you a lot if they just force a Game 7.
17:12Never mind win the series.
17:14It'd tell you a lot.
17:15And it'd tell you something, too, if they lose tonight.
17:16I'd be very disappointed if they lose tonight.
17:18I'd agree with that.
17:19It would tell you a lot that they didn't roll over
17:21and they forced a Game 7.
17:22But I just worry about how much they have left in the tank.
17:25You want Jalen Brown to take over,
17:26and really they're going to lean heavily on him tonight.
17:28Hey, he's obviously banged up.
17:30It's very clear that his knee injury is still bothering him.
17:33Obviously, we don't really know what's going on with Christophe Porzingis.
17:35We don't know what he can contribute.
17:37Drew Holliday is coming off the hamstring injury.
17:39Sam Hauser is coming back from an ankle injury.
17:40He hasn't played in three games.
17:42So I just wonder how much they have left in the tank,
17:44like beyond the Jason Tatum injury.
17:46Like, this is a banged up team.
17:48This is a worn down team right now.
17:50So that's a little bit of a concern for me going forward.
17:52But again, they have enough talent to at least make this a series.
17:55All right, what's your guess for where does Giannis play next year?
17:59I was all over Dallas, but I just can't see them moving that pick.
18:03Yeah, I don't think they will.
18:04You kind of got to make the pick there.
18:05You're getting a generational player that one would think.
18:08He's not even 19 yet.
18:09No, he's young as hell.
18:10He's a very young player.
18:12So he's like, he should be a senior in high school.
18:13You think OKC could get in on that?
18:15I think OKC's an option.
18:16I also think San Antonio's an option.
18:18Like, with the number two pick there, the De'Aaron Fox fit wasn't really great.
18:22I know we didn't see a ton with him and Wemby, but the fit was kind of weird from the start.
18:26They have the assets to make a move.
18:28I mean, I could see San Antonio as one.
18:30Oklahoma City, look at all they have.
18:32But how much of their current roster do they want to keep together?
18:35Because they haven't had to dish out any checks yet.
18:37Like, they'll have J-Dub.
18:38They'll have SGA.
18:39They'll have Chet Holgrim.
18:40They have all these guys they have to pay.
18:41So OKC will be a little bit tricky just from a financial standpoint.
18:45So maybe San Antonio.
18:47And I wonder if they want to put him in the West.
18:48Like, I wonder if Milwaukee's like, we don't want to keep him in the Eastern Conference.
18:52That's part of it, too.
18:53That makes sense.
18:54Game five tonight.
18:55Game six is scheduled for Friday.
18:59And then a game seven potentially on Monday.
19:02Pure hoops with Terp.
19:04Every Wednesday, Terp.
19:05It's been a good run.
19:06We'll see if the Celtics can extend this thing.
19:08And make sure you follow all his coverage at weei.com.
19:11And on Twitter at JustinMTurpin.
19:13We appreciate it, Terp.
19:14All right, guys.
19:15Thank you, sir.