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00:00A historic announcement with, after four decades of insurgency,
00:04Turkey's separatist Kurdistan Workers' Party, the PKK, announcing its own dissolution.
00:11This is the follow-up to that March 1st announcement of a unilateral ceasefire
00:16by longtime jail leader Ibrahim Ocalan.
00:23It's a decision that could pave the way towards ending four decades of armed conflict with the
00:28Turkish state. The Kurdistan's Workers' Party, or PKK, has announced it has decided to dissolve
00:34its organisational structure and end its method of armed struggle.
00:38The decision was announced by a media outlet close to the group days after it convened a
00:42party congress in northern Iraq.
00:44It follows a call from jailed PKK leader Abdullah Ocalan back in February,
00:49who urged his fighters to disarm and dissolve.
00:53On the 1st of March, the PKK had already announced a unilateral ceasefire,
00:57but had attached conditions, including the creation of a legal framework for peace negotiations.
01:03Monday's announcement is yet another step towards peace, and could have far-reaching
01:07political and security consequences for the region, including in neighbouring Syria,
01:11where Kurds control the northeast.
01:14Abdullah Ocalan founded the PKK in 1978.
01:17Its initial aim was the creation of an independent Kurdistan in southeast Turkey.
01:22But in recent years, it's called for greater autonomy within Turkey instead.
01:26Tens of thousands of people have been killed in the fighting.
01:30The group is still considered a terrorist organisation by Turkey, the EU and the US.
01:35A spokesperson for Turkey's AK party says the PKK's decision is an important step towards
01:41a terror-free country, and that the disbanding process will be closely monitored in the field
01:45by the state.
01:46And for more, we're joined by Amaran Zaman, the chief correspondent covering the Middle East
01:52and North Africa for the news website, Al Monitor.
01:55Thank you for being with us here on France 24.
01:57Thanks for having me.
01:58First, that March announcement by Ibrahim Ocalan of a ceasefire, and now this.
02:04How do you explain it?
02:05Well, you have to look at the background.
02:09Turkey began secret talks with Abdullah Ocalan, who is, you know, in a Turkish prison, has
02:15been there since 1999, back in April of last year.
02:19And this was immediately after the Turkish ruling party, the AKP, lost local elections.
02:29And this is because the opposition defeated them with the support of Kurdish voters.
02:34So what's been going on essentially is Erdogan, the Turkish president, trying to drive a wedge
02:42between the opposition and the Kurds and to win over the Kurds to his side.
02:46Why? Because his term expires in 2028, and he cannot run a third time, and he's desperate
02:53to remain in power, and he believes the only way he can do that right now is if he can win
02:59Turkish support, rather Kurdish support, sorry, to change the constitution in ways that would
03:05allow him to do that.
03:07And so this is the background to all of this.
03:10And we have plenty of reactions coming in.
03:13Let's start with that of Recep Tayyip Erdogan's own government.
03:17Let's listen to the foreign minister.
03:25We don't have that soundbite.
03:27But basically, hailing the move.
03:29However, there's no counterparts right now.
03:32There's no, the Turkish government didn't announce, well, the PKK has been asking for a legal framework
03:40for peace negotiations, nothing on that, no guarantees.
03:44This is very much a unilateral announcement.
03:48Very much so.
03:49I mean, the process from the get-go has been one of basically the government dictating the
03:55terms of peace, if that's what we can call it, to the PKK, saying, you have to capitulate,
04:01do what I tell you to do.
04:02And then we can talk about, eventually talk about some reforms that would help address some
04:08of the, you know, issues that the Kurds care about.
04:12But, so of course, that begs the question of why would the PKK even agree to doing something
04:18like this, you know, 40 years of fighting in the name of winning rights for their people.
04:25And they've been burned before in negotiations.
04:27Well, yes, they have indeed.
04:29This is the third time this government has been engaged in peace talks with them.
04:33But the key issue to understand here is that Abdullah Erjalan is almost a godlike figure
04:40in that movement.
04:40And his word is enough and has proved to be enough for his fighters to go along with
04:48what he's saying.
04:49But we also have to note that things have changed quite dramatically in recent years.
04:55The Turkish military has gained significant, I would say, dominance in the field against
05:03the PKK with these drones that we all hear about that are used in other conflicts, Turkish-made
05:08drones, have put the rebels squarely on the defensive.
05:12And in Syria, of course, with the collapse of the Assad regime, Iran is out and the Russians
05:17no longer have the same kind of influence they did, which has reduced the PKK's ability to
05:24maneuver inside Syria, which was another very important theater for their operations, because
05:31we all know that the Syrian Kurdish group that's in power there has very close links to the
05:37PKK, with many of them actually having fought inside the PKK for long years.
05:42Yeah, and the Syrian Kurds who at first said, this doesn't concern us, but we've had in the
05:50last hours the SDF commander, Maslum Abdi on X, formerly Twitter, stating that it's a decision
06:00worthy of respect.
06:03So what do you make of that statement?
06:05Well, they're kind of, in a sense, the winners in all of this.
06:10Why?
06:11Because as a result of these talks and the PKK's decision to go along with what Erdogan told
06:18them to do, which is to end the fight with Turkey, Turkey has stopped its attacks against
06:25the Syrian Kurds, because as you know, since 2016, they have, Turkey has launched repeated
06:33ground offenses, offensives, it's been...
06:36But does that have more to do with the PKK or the fact that you have the new masters of
06:42Damascus who've concluded a deal with the SDF?
06:45Well, one would argue that if Turkey had not green-lighted that agreement, it may not have
06:52happened, because we all know that Turkey does have quite some influence over the new masters
06:59of Damascus, over the HTS, over Jolani, or Ahmad al-Shara, as he now calls himself, his
07:06real name.
07:06So, in fact, when Turkey was saying that we will never allow any kind of Kurdish, you
07:15know, autonomy, nothing, and when they spoke of Abdi, he was a big terrorist, and they,
07:21in fact, tried to kill him several times.
07:24This is what Abdi himself told me when I interviewed him on several occasions.
07:29And he's on Turkey's most wanted list of terrorists.
07:33But right now, Turkey has stopped using the word terrorist when it refers to the Syrian
07:40Kurdish groups, and it's allowed this agreement in Aleppo, this is a bit in the weeds, whereby
07:47the Kurds of Aleppo are allowed to run their own neighborhoods there, provide their own security,
07:57maintain their own schools.
07:58Turkey has allowed that agreement, which is seen as a blueprint for the future of the
08:04broader Kurdish region in Syria, to go forward.
08:08And it's more than likely that Turkey is also talking to the Syrian Kurdish leadership now
08:15about other arrangements going forward.
08:19Emperor and Zaman, at the outset of the conversation, you said it was all, from Ankara's perspective,
08:24it's all about that constitutional reform that allows Recep Tayyip Erdogan to seek another
08:31term.
08:33At this point in time, what are the chances that this will lead to some kind of, like you
08:39say, recognition of rights for Kurds in the southeast of the country and elsewhere?
08:45It's a big question because, you know, he has to take public reaction into account, Erdogan.
08:52And, you know, we know that he's constantly looking at the poll numbers to see where this
08:57is going in terms of how the public is reacting, because this whole process was shrouded in secrecy.
09:04The public wasn't really prepared for it.
09:08And we now know that some concessions are being made whereby Ujolan, for example, is being
09:14moved to more comfortable surroundings on that island prison where he lives.
09:21And, of course, for many Turks, he was long called a baby killer and seen as such, because
09:28that was the official narrative about him, the PKK.
09:32And, of course, many Turkish soldiers have died fighting the PKK.
09:36So they're wondering, you know, what is going on?
09:39And speaking of people in jail, the leader of the center-left opposition, the mayor of Istanbul,
09:45is currently behind bars.
09:48The CHP's party leader putting out some statements on social media saying the PKK decision is critical.
09:57I'll read to you another one here, Amber, and saying the CHP will not allow people's demands
10:02for peace and democracy to be exploited for personal political purposes.
10:07Is that a remark directed at Recep Tayyip Erdogan or at Ujolan?
10:12I would say more at Erdogan.
10:14Of course, the fact of the matter is that, you know, normally this would be a historic moment,
10:20time for celebration, jubilation, you know, ending, four decades of conflict.
10:26People won't be dying anymore, hopefully.
10:28But it's all kind of, we're all left with a bit of a bitter taste in our mouths because,
10:34well, this is happening on the Kurdish front.
10:37The main opposition pro-secular party is under tremendous pressure from the government.
10:42As you pointed out, the mayor of Istanbul, who is seen as the man most likely to be able
10:47to beat Erdogan in a presidential election, has been locked up on very thinly supported corruption charges.
10:54Many other CHP opposition politicians are also being prosecuted, jailed, ousted from office, elected mayors.
11:05So, you know, how can we talk about democracy?
11:08Well, you know, on the one hand, this is happening, right?
11:14So it's a very bizarre, let's say, moment.
11:19And it's too early to know, as you say, which way public opinion is going to go.
11:25Indeed.
11:26All right.
11:26Amber and Zaman, I want to thank you so much for being with us here.
11:28Well, thank you for having me.
11:30Stay with us.
11:31There's much more to come, more news, plus the day's business and sports.