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00:00Calling all scientists and researchers, European countries vie to recruit academics, notably those leaving the United States, due to a cut in funding and freedoms there.
00:21French President Emmanuel Macron and President of the European Commission, Ursula von der Leyen, are holding a conference this Monday on the issue.
00:30For more insight, we can speak to Professor of History of Science at Stanford University, Robert Proctor.
00:37Thanks so much for your time. Now, I believe you're actually in France and you're going to attend that conference.
00:43You know, do you think U.S. scientists are ready and willing to move to Europe?
00:49I know lots of them who are. Yeah, there was a recent poll of Nature magazine that showed among those who are responding,
00:57well over half said they would be willing to go to Canada or to Britain or to the continent here because of the Trumpian war on science.
01:09It's tens of thousands of scientists have been fired and there's a lot of pressure being put on universities now,
01:18almost a kind of extortion for making certain demands for hiring practices, for allowable campus speech.
01:28And the heavy weight of the federal budget is being put on this.
01:33So universities are having their funding cut, their funding withheld.
01:37And so, yeah, it's certainly a big prospect.
01:41And you use tens of thousands, you know, losing their jobs, a bias against certain types of research.
01:48It would appear also in the United States, certain programs being targeted more than others.
01:52But do you see this potentially leading to a big brain drain from the United States?
01:59Well, it could be significant.
02:00A lot depends on how long this goes on for.
02:04And you're right that only certain areas are being targeted, especially environmental science, climate science,
02:11any kind of science having to do with human differences or vulnerable populations.
02:16But it is something that could that could that could significantly affect.
02:22I already know several colleagues who've gone to to Canada.
02:26My own two children are now professors in at UBC in Vancouver.
02:31It could well be a brain drain, which is significant because the United States has been for so long a kind of refuge for people from all over the world.
02:41And after the Holocaust or in from Russia, we've had many, many immigrants, scientists.
02:48But now that seems to be reversing.
02:50So bad news when it comes to research in the United States.
02:53But that's also bad news for the rest of us, isn't it?
02:55Because a lot of research is collaborative globally.
02:59What impact do you see this having on, you know, the world's information, if you like?
03:04Well, I think the biggest impact is going to be in just slowing the progress on the energy transition to clean fuels, to reversing global warming.
03:16Trump has been most aggressively targeting climate science.
03:21And he loves what he calls clean, beautiful coal.
03:26And he's trying to revive coal plants.
03:28He's cutting even the mention of climate change from any government document.
03:35So it's definitely going to delay the inevitable transition.
03:39And that's going to cost lives.
03:41Now, Harvard is taking the White House, the administration, to court because it wants to pull funding.
03:48You know, how much do you think of Trump's declarations and the administration's plans will actually follow through?
03:55Or how much power will the courts have to stand up to them?
03:58Well, Columbia University was, unfortunately, one of the first to cave to Trump's demands, which is why it's sometimes being called Vichy on the Hudson.
04:09But Harvard has taken a more courageous stance.
04:12And many other universities are bonding together in a kind of mutual defense treaty, something like a NATO for academia.
04:20And so even though the Congress is largely captured by the Republicans, the presidency is in the hands of the Republicans, but the courts have remained relatively independent.
04:32And we are probably going to move to some type of constitutional crisis if Trump ever disobeys a Supreme Court order, which would be the next card to be played.
04:45And how important is research and the education and Trump's position on education to the average American, do you feel?
04:54I think it's crucial.
04:56The average American wants to have safe vaccines, wants to have clean water, wants to have clean air and wants to not have these horrific wildfires.
05:04We've had a couple of years ago, my family and I had to go to Nevada because the smoke was so bad in the Bay Area.
05:12We'd never seen that before.
05:14So all over the world, ordinary people, people who voted for or against Donald Trump are suffering from more extreme weather, more wildfires.
05:24And so ordinary, you know, people are going to suffer no matter who they are.
05:29Finally, Professor, I mean, overall salaries for researchers and scientists in Europe generally much lower than they are in the United States.
05:38I mean, what will it take to entice people over?
05:41Do you think you're attending this conference later on this morning?
05:45Right.
05:45Well, if you're unemployed, you know, you're not making any money.
05:48So it's true that there are going to have to be some kind of a competition there.
05:55But, you know, another thing that might have to change in Europe is the smoking rates are so high.
06:00Americans don't like that.
06:01And so that would help entice people if you could get that down a bit.
06:06OK, Professor Robert Proctor, we'll have to leave it there.
06:08But thanks so much for your time.
06:10Before you head to that conference here in Paris, looking at how the EU may entice researchers and scientists from the US to come and set up shop here.