Support the show:
https://www.patreon.com/branham
Available on Spotify, Google, and Apple Podcasts:
https://william-branham.org/podcast
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
John and Darrell discuss Darrell's personal journey, touching on topics such as his early experiences with cultish teachings, the isolation of growing up in a restrictive religious environment, and the impact of indoctrination. Darrell reflects on the struggles of living under tight control, including strict rules around dress, behavior, and social interactions. He contrasts his experiences with those of peers who were not raised in such environments, illustrating how deeply ingrained beliefs affected both his family life and personal development. He also discusses the dangers of faith healing and the harm caused by leaders manipulating their followers’ faith, leading to tragic outcomes. Through these experiences, Darrell delves into the process of deconstruction, seeking to understand the differences between programming and genuine transformation, and how this journey impacted his adult life.
As they talk, John and Darrell explore the absurdities of their shared upbringing, like the practice of fasting during church camps, and how Darrell rebellious nature led him to question and eventually step away from the cultish environment. They reflect on the emotional weight of these experiences and how they shaped their worldview. Darrell shares more personal stories about the pressures to conform, the challenges of growing up in a community that rejected mainstream culture, and the process of finding a more balanced perspective as he deconstructs his past.
00:00 Introduction
02:29 Darrell Describes His Entry Into Christ Gospel
06:04 Childhood Indoctrination and Family Tensions
09:49 Cultural Isolation and Social Alienation
12:37 Humor, Rebellion, and Saturday Night Live
16:23 The Great Fasting Scandal and Hidden Egg Rolls
22:12 Recruitment Pressure and Early Cult Red Flags
24:54 Dangerous Medical Claims and Faith Healing Failures
27:53 The Tragic Toll of Denying Medication
29:38 Church Camps, Bernice’s Power, and Gendered Teachings
33:28 Wedding Chaos and Cult Intrusion on Personal Milestones
39:00 Darrell's Father’s Sacrifice and Cult Exploitation
42:17 College Awakening and Discovering Jewish Mysticism
44:42 Pastoral Training and Politicking in the Church
47:08 Final Church Split and Harsh Youth Pastor Experiences
49:03 The Breaking Point and Meeting Normal Christians
51:05 Wine, Hypocrisy, and Questioning Doctrine
54:04 Renee’s Haircut and the Cold Return Visit
56:52 Final Departure and the Struggle With Revictimization
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.
https://www.patreon.com/branham
Available on Spotify, Google, and Apple Podcasts:
https://william-branham.org/podcast
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
John and Darrell discuss Darrell's personal journey, touching on topics such as his early experiences with cultish teachings, the isolation of growing up in a restrictive religious environment, and the impact of indoctrination. Darrell reflects on the struggles of living under tight control, including strict rules around dress, behavior, and social interactions. He contrasts his experiences with those of peers who were not raised in such environments, illustrating how deeply ingrained beliefs affected both his family life and personal development. He also discusses the dangers of faith healing and the harm caused by leaders manipulating their followers’ faith, leading to tragic outcomes. Through these experiences, Darrell delves into the process of deconstruction, seeking to understand the differences between programming and genuine transformation, and how this journey impacted his adult life.
As they talk, John and Darrell explore the absurdities of their shared upbringing, like the practice of fasting during church camps, and how Darrell rebellious nature led him to question and eventually step away from the cultish environment. They reflect on the emotional weight of these experiences and how they shaped their worldview. Darrell shares more personal stories about the pressures to conform, the challenges of growing up in a community that rejected mainstream culture, and the process of finding a more balanced perspective as he deconstructs his past.
00:00 Introduction
02:29 Darrell Describes His Entry Into Christ Gospel
06:04 Childhood Indoctrination and Family Tensions
09:49 Cultural Isolation and Social Alienation
12:37 Humor, Rebellion, and Saturday Night Live
16:23 The Great Fasting Scandal and Hidden Egg Rolls
22:12 Recruitment Pressure and Early Cult Red Flags
24:54 Dangerous Medical Claims and Faith Healing Failures
27:53 The Tragic Toll of Denying Medication
29:38 Church Camps, Bernice’s Power, and Gendered Teachings
33:28 Wedding Chaos and Cult Intrusion on Personal Milestones
39:00 Darrell's Father’s Sacrifice and Cult Exploitation
42:17 College Awakening and Discovering Jewish Mysticism
44:42 Pastoral Training and Politicking in the Church
47:08 Final Church Split and Harsh Youth Pastor Experiences
49:03 The Breaking Point and Meeting Normal Christians
51:05 Wine, Hypocrisy, and Questioning Doctrine
54:04 Renee’s Haircut and the Cold Return Visit
56:52 Final Departure and the Struggle With Revictimization
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.
Category
📚
LearningTranscript
00:00:30Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.
00:00:36I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research
00:00:41at william-branham.org, and with me I have my very special guest, Daryl Carlisle, former
00:00:47member of Christ Gospel Church.
00:00:50Daryl, it's good to have you back.
00:00:52We've been talking back and forth through email and text messages, and there's just so much
00:00:58more to tell about Christ's gospel, and it fascinates me because it's literally walk
00:01:03maybe two blocks, three blocks from my house.
00:01:06I just walk out my door this way, and if I walk through the schoolyard and walk beyond
00:01:10it, it's just right there.
00:01:12And yet, this whole thing was connected to Branhamism.
00:01:16Not many people know it.
00:01:17And in this area, it's weird, because if you mention that you may or may not have escaped
00:01:24a cult, if you're in a restaurant or talking to your doctor or whatever, they say, oh, yeah,
00:01:29there's two cults there.
00:01:30There's the Branham's, and then there's the other one.
00:01:32What's the other one?
00:01:33And they always say, what's the other one?
00:01:36They're unfamiliar with Christ's gospel, right?
00:01:38Yeah.
00:01:38And so, so much more to tell.
00:01:42So, you and I got to talking, and we thought we'd have you back and talk through some of
00:01:46the crazy.
00:01:47Yeah, that's plenty to talk about.
00:01:49We need more than an hour here, but that's okay.
00:01:52We'll go over some of the highlights.
00:01:54Yeah.
00:01:55Yeah.
00:01:55Yeah.
00:01:56No, thank you for having me back.
00:01:58I appreciate that.
00:02:00I was just kind of looking back at what we talked about, and it's funny.
00:02:04I mentioned to you earlier, it's like all of a sudden, I mean, a lot of things that
00:02:08when you're doing these things, it's kind of hard to remember everything, and then you
00:02:12kind of get off on other things, and all of a sudden, I mean, a lot of these memories
00:02:16just started coming in, and some of the stuff that we went through, my wife and I, and so
00:02:21I thought, you know, I'm just going to start from the very beginning of how we got into
00:02:26this, and then kind of, it'll kind of paint the picture more of who I am and what I went
00:02:32through to get me to where I'm at today, so if that's okay, well, you know, that's
00:02:37kind of where I'm going to go today.
00:02:38Yeah.
00:02:39Yeah, I think that's a great idea.
00:02:40You and I, last time, we just, we hit it off, and we started talking, and we really didn't
00:02:44get much into your story, so having you back a second time is probably a good idea.
00:02:50Yeah.
00:02:50Yeah.
00:02:50Yeah, no problem.
00:02:51One of the things I did want to just kind of touch on is that everybody was really kind
00:02:57in the comments and things that after we, you know, after that came out, one of the things
00:03:03that I really wanted to just briefly mention was one of the comments from someone was that
00:03:08they like to use the word reprogramming, and I totally understand where that comes from.
00:03:12I've heard that from other folks, too, but kind of the way I look at it is if you reprogram
00:03:19something, I feel like you're starting with something that you're kind of keeping, you
00:03:23don't want to let go of it, so you kind of redo it and reprogram it, and so, and I feel
00:03:27like that's what we did by, we took what we had, we reprogrammed, and so we did it when
00:03:34we left one crazy situation, we stepped into another, and then another, and then another,
00:03:40and so I like to look at, I love the word deconstruct because I feel like if you reprogram
00:03:45something, like I said, you're still kind of the same hard drive.
00:03:48You still got the same software, kind of different, and I feel like if you, you really have to
00:03:53get it all the way down, and, and, and, and then start with a whole new software, like
00:03:59it just, just start with a, you got your hard drive and then build from there, and one of
00:04:03the things that I didn't mention last time that I like to think of it as, as deconstructing
00:04:07and then reconstructing something new, something better, something more safe, and that's, that's
00:04:13just my thoughts on it, and I feel like that it's scary to use the word deconstruct,
00:04:19but I feel like if you really want to move on, I, I feel like it's something that's very
00:04:23important to do.
00:04:24Um, so I just kind of throwing that out there, hopefully it's not offensive, but, um, that's
00:04:29just my two cents on that, so.
00:04:30Yeah.
00:04:31I, I'm a sci-fi fan, and in the sci-fi world, you have these androids and robots, and they
00:04:38can be programmed for good, bad, evil, whatever, and whenever they're reprogrammed, they're not
00:04:43always necessarily reprogrammed to something good, they could be also repurposed for something
00:04:49bad, so reprogramming, for me, it's a weird word, because I see programming as vile and
00:04:56destructive and evil, to program somebody's head is bad, and if you use the word reprogram,
00:05:01well, it means you're programming somebody's head again.
00:05:03Yeah.
00:05:04I use D instead of re, you're taking the knowledge out, but like you said, deconstruct, because
00:05:11deprogramming only takes you so far.
00:05:14You still have the foundation that you basically were built upon, and until you deconstruct
00:05:20that foundation, and then start with a clean slate, you really can't reconstruct, so that
00:05:26turns into a very difficult journey if you really, if, if you don't take the extra work
00:05:31to completely deconstruct.
00:05:33No, I, I agree.
00:05:34I agree.
00:05:35Um, yeah, no, I, I, a hundred percent, and I, I just think it, I know it's, it may sound
00:05:40silly and trivial to some, they may not, but I think it was just, well, it was worth kind
00:05:43of just touching on that, but no, that's good.
00:05:47Um, so tonight I was just going to talk about, um, my personal journey, again, um, add a little
00:05:54color commentary to, you know, who I am, and, and again, where, you know, where, how I, why
00:06:00I chose to, to do this whole path.
00:06:02Uh, but this all started, I was about five or six years old, I think I was in first grade,
00:06:07maybe.
00:06:08Um, and my mom worked in a factory and she met a lady that she became very close to, uh,
00:06:16very good people.
00:06:17Um, in fact, uh, what her son, uh, I was very close to her son entered and her daughter and,
00:06:25um, and the family.
00:06:26And, uh, he's in one of the stories that I'm going to tell at night.
00:06:29It's actually, uh, it's quite funny with something I did at one of our little events,
00:06:34but anyway, um, so at five years old, six years old, we started off and mom, we were
00:06:39going to a small Pentecost church, a family church, and my uncle was the pastor and we
00:06:45didn't go that often, but we went some, and it was a tiny one room building, which actually
00:06:50is where I, um, proposed to my wife in.
00:06:54And, um, and so we were going there and then mom, uh, met this lady and, um, we started going
00:07:01to Christ gospel and it was a big change for us.
00:07:06Um, my mom started adopting the dress code.
00:07:09Um, my dad, um, he didn't know what to do with it.
00:07:13Right.
00:07:13Um, and, and as kids, um, you know, these, these, these organizations, they, they love it
00:07:20when the kids come in because we're very impressionable.
00:07:22Then we talked about programming.
00:07:24They can program you right away.
00:07:26Right.
00:07:27Um, cause you're, you're, you're, you're in your formative years and that's kind of what
00:07:31happened to myself and my sister.
00:07:33And so, um, that's kind of the, the genesis of, of how we got into this to begin with.
00:07:40Uh, Renee was born into it.
00:07:42I wasn't.
00:07:43Um, so as time went on, my, uh, mom started, um, my, my sister started having a
00:07:50having to adopt the, the dress code.
00:07:52Uh, I wasn't supposed to wear shorts, which I did.
00:07:55Um, I, we weren't, uh, you know, supposed to watch TV.
00:07:58My dad was not on board with any of this.
00:08:00And as the years went on, that became, um, a really tough situation for them.
00:08:07And as I get into my story, you'll kind of see where my dad started kind of dabbling
00:08:12in this, uh, in Christ gospel on and off through the years.
00:08:16But, um, as we got going, um, you know, again, like the, the dress was very apparent.
00:08:26And then some of the other things that started to happen is that we started to pull away from
00:08:30our family because my uncle would always do Easter egg stuff like, uh, Easter.
00:08:36They would do a hunt for the kids.
00:08:38Uh, well, that was out, right.
00:08:40Um, every Sunday for Easter, we did sunrise service where we go have breakfast and it
00:08:45was a full day of indoctrination, right?
00:08:47Um, you know, and so as kids, um, and that was kind of sad for me because I knew my cousins
00:08:53and everyone else, they were out having fun and doing these, these things.
00:08:57And, and as we got older and got more into it, we started to kind of adopt these mindsets
00:09:03that, oh yeah, you know, now I understand why that's wrong or well, which we didn't, but
00:09:07we thought we did were kids.
00:09:09Um, and so those are some of the first things that started happening and you start losing
00:09:14a lot of the, the freedoms and you're, you're not growing up like, like everyone else around
00:09:20you, right?
00:09:21Like you see your friends doing things and going to school dances and, um, like when I
00:09:27was in school, I'm, I'm sure you grew up in this.
00:09:29You weren't allowed to go to sex ed, right?
00:09:32Um, so now all of a sudden you start be, uh, being alienated from, um, some of your friends
00:09:39and they don't know what to think about it and constantly feel like had to explain, you
00:09:45know, why, you know, these things were, why I wasn't there.
00:09:48And the, the answers we had, and I look back at it now, my, my, my friends, they were very
00:09:53kind because the answers are the explanations I would give were just, it made no sense at
00:09:58all.
00:09:59You know, now that I look at it, but, um, and I, I, I'm sure yourself growing up, I mean,
00:10:05did you experience some of the similar situations like that?
00:10:10Oh, absolutely.
00:10:10As a child, absolutely.
00:10:12And there's a part that a lot of people overlook and miss.
00:10:16So yeah, sex education, that's taboo.
00:10:19Most of these cults are like that, but the dancing, I could never go to a dance, to a
00:10:24prom, anything that normal kids did.
00:10:26I wasn't a normal kid, so you can't do it, but it's deeper than that.
00:10:31So what children are missing out when you rob them of connecting with other children, their
00:10:38age is you're, you're really taking them out of the culture.
00:10:43And in a cult, that's by design because the cult wants to establish its own culture, which
00:10:48is in effect counterculture.
00:10:50So in counterculture, they're isolating, even if they're not isolating from the rest of
00:10:55the world with walls around them or whatever, they're counterculture.
00:10:58So they're isolating their culture to change the way people act and think and change their
00:11:04worldview.
00:11:04Well, the problem is that if you don't share the same culture with your peers, what happens
00:11:12when you grow up and you go into the workplace?
00:11:14Well, then nothing really, there's no way to connect.
00:11:17There's nothing that really makes sense.
00:11:19And this, the culture idea hit me in a very funny way because I'm in IT and, you know, you
00:11:25have the water cooler talk whenever you're around the, you know, talking to people at work
00:11:29or you'll be in a meeting and they'll use these phrases and they're, they're making
00:11:34cultural references that I didn't have.
00:11:37And sometimes those are from television.
00:11:39Sometimes they're from games, sports, from whatever it is.
00:11:43Well, there were a lot of television references in one of my first IT jobs.
00:11:48And I felt so out of place because I wasn't, we weren't allowed to have television in the
00:11:52Branham cults, even though sometimes we did, sometimes we didn't, by and large, you didn't
00:11:57watch television.
00:11:58You weren't supposed to.
00:11:59So after I escaped the cult, I literally watched and not like watch viewed, but while
00:12:08I'm working, I would have it on a monitor over here.
00:12:10I watched more television than most humans will in their entire life, just sun up to
00:12:15sun down, listening to it so I could pick up the references.
00:12:20And when a joke was made, I'd get it.
00:12:22And I'm, I'm shocked today how much that helped me because I'll be in a conversation
00:12:27and sometimes I can, they'll be talking the culture.
00:12:31Sometimes I'll know more about the culture than they do.
00:12:33So now I kind of fit in.
00:12:37Yeah.
00:12:37Yeah.
00:12:37We had to catch up, man.
00:12:39We had to catch up.
00:12:40Oh yeah.
00:12:40You know, this, this takes me to one of my funny stories that actually it's a great
00:12:45segue because I, when I got a little older, um, again, I, I, I was always in it, but I
00:12:54wasn't because I would wear the shorts.
00:12:56I would do all this stuff.
00:12:57And I remember, um, my Kentucky Wildcats, which I was, by the way, I was going to wear
00:13:02black today in the morning.
00:13:03That was a horrible game against Tennessee, but, but, but I remember, yeah, as, as, uh,
00:13:09someone who's not a Kentucky fan, you, you might've been happy when we got put on probation
00:13:13back in the late eighties, uh, when that mysterious envelope opened up with the money and, and we
00:13:19went on.
00:13:20And so I was forced into this purgatory of the games were, were taped and delayed because
00:13:26I was a huge Kentucky fan.
00:13:28I did not, I found, I would be gone at my friend's house when Kentucky played.
00:13:32I begged him, like, can we please watch this game?
00:13:34And they were all Indiana fans.
00:13:36So, you know, so that's, so anyway, we were taped delayed and we would come on at 10 30
00:13:41at night.
00:13:42And I remember we weren't supposed to watch TV and I would go upstairs real quietly and
00:13:47I would turn on the tape and I'd turn it all the way down.
00:13:49And I remember, um, uh, my dad came up one time and he was like, you're not supposed to
00:13:53be watching that.
00:13:54And I'm like, okay.
00:13:56And he, he, but he knew he really wasn't, he's like, okay.
00:13:59And I looked at him and we both knew good night, dad.
00:14:02I'm going to, you know, I'm going to watch the game.
00:14:04And I remember telling my friends, like, if I'm going to go to hell for watching Kentucky,
00:14:08I'm okay with it.
00:14:11You know, and so that was, that was, uh, that was me, you know, always kind of, uh, bucking
00:14:19the thing.
00:14:20Cause I was like, man, this doesn't, this is kind of crazy, you know?
00:14:23And I remember, um, I, I loved Saturday, Saturday night live.
00:14:28Cause again, culturally I wasn't getting any of this.
00:14:32Right.
00:14:32So again, I would go spend the night with people and we'd watch Saturday night live.
00:14:36And one of my favorite characters was, uh, Dana Carvey and the church lady.
00:14:41Okay.
00:14:41Oh, I love that.
00:14:41And so, oh yeah, he was great.
00:14:44He was great.
00:14:45So we had the trunk or treat where, uh, well, they didn't call it Halloween party, fall party
00:14:52or whatever.
00:14:52And they would always bring us in on Halloween and we'd have to dress up as like, like Bible
00:14:58character, whatever.
00:14:59It was like, so silly.
00:15:01You know, I'm in high school or whatever, eighth grade.
00:15:03So I dressed up as the church lady and I went to this thing and the leaders, they didn't
00:15:10know who it was.
00:15:10And they're like, well, who are you?
00:15:12And I, and I would like do some of the quotes and I, I know they knew, but, but they acted
00:15:18like they did it.
00:15:18Well, you could have just said, I'm sister Hicks.
00:15:20Yeah, exactly.
00:15:23Yeah.
00:15:23Cause I had, I had to dress on and the, the, the, you know, the, the, the pillow on my,
00:15:28you know, to make it big, you know, oh yeah.
00:15:30They, they would have believed that.
00:15:32Oh my God.
00:15:33But yeah, I, I remember, uh, uh, that was one of the, the, cause I was like, man, my mom
00:15:39doesn't know who this is.
00:15:40And cause she did it.
00:15:41And cause like, she took me there.
00:15:43Right.
00:15:43And so anyway, so, and, and we would do, and I know another one, I guarantee, I know you
00:15:50did this, they would take us again in indoctrinating us.
00:15:54They would do, um, the lock-ins, right?
00:15:57And so we would, um, do these things where they bring us in and we would do, um, you know,
00:16:04all these crazy services.
00:16:06And then we'd go in there and we'd run around, shout and scream.
00:16:09And, and then we would go in the back and, and, and, and eat and whatever.
00:16:13And we would, we'd all stay there and nothing, nothing bad's going to happen, right?
00:16:16A bunch of teenagers locked in overnight and the big, big church building.
00:16:20So one time they decided to do a lock-in, uh, for a fast.
00:16:26Okay.
00:16:27It was all guys.
00:16:28And the one thing that I, I just thought was just the, the silliest thing of all.
00:16:33I always thought, okay, running is stupid.
00:16:37Uh, uh, riding a bike is stupid because I can drive somewhere.
00:16:40I'm like, man, like to me, I'm just, you know, I'm like, man, why would I run?
00:16:44If I could, if you, if you don't have a car, I'll come pick you up or you don't have to
00:16:48run, you know?
00:16:49And so fasting was that for me, right?
00:16:52I was like, I don't get it.
00:16:53Uh, it's silly.
00:16:54Like I want to eat, man.
00:16:56And so they would always do these fasts.
00:16:59And I, so my mom signed me up for this weekend fast thing.
00:17:04So Friday I was like, all right, mom, um, this true story, by the way, I said, uh, you
00:17:10got to have any McDonald's because, because if I'm going to fast all weekend, I got to have
00:17:13something.
00:17:14So she takes him to McDonald's.
00:17:15I get a double cheeseburger and fries and a Coke.
00:17:18Right.
00:17:19And so I get there and we do our crazy service.
00:17:22We, whatever the way is we, that we did.
00:17:25And, um, I got through the first night and I was miserable, man.
00:17:29All I could think about was eating.
00:17:31And so the next day we get up and, uh, you know, we, we get up and they're like, all right,
00:17:38we're going to go have our little service and everything.
00:17:40And I don't know how, um, I, I, I, what I told them, but I said, I got to go in the
00:17:46back, uh, cause in the back was the fellowship hall, which I'm sure you had those too.
00:17:50And our church did this.
00:17:52Um, and I'm sorry if one of my old pastors hears this and, you know, back from the day,
00:17:57uh, but I'm confessing right now.
00:18:00And so I go in the back and we did this thing every year.
00:18:03We participate in the fall festival.
00:18:05It's how we are big fundraiser.
00:18:06And we did egg rolls, uh, was one of our specialties.
00:18:10So I'm out there.
00:18:11I'm, I said, Hey pastor or whatever I got to go.
00:18:14And so I go scrounge around the kitchen.
00:18:16Okay.
00:18:17And I find this big freezer full of egg rolls and I'm like, Oh yeah.
00:18:22So I go in there.
00:18:24I don't know how I did not get caught.
00:18:27Okay.
00:18:28I microwave an egg roll and I, I scarf it down, man.
00:18:32And I'm like, man, that was good.
00:18:34So I got me another one and I cooked it and then I hurry up and get back to, you know,
00:18:39to the service.
00:18:40And so no one, I don't know.
00:18:43Maybe they knew, I don't know, but they didn't act like they knew.
00:18:46And so, um, we're doing our little service again.
00:18:49And, and, uh, I brought this Nerf basketball hoop and you probably remember a little orange
00:18:56with a little net and a little orange, uh, like styrofoam ball.
00:18:59And I thought, and I, and I took tape and I made a three point line for everybody.
00:19:03And so we were playing basketball and, uh, you know, and we were having fun, but we're
00:19:10using a lot, you know, we're burning up calories.
00:19:11Right.
00:19:12And so, uh, here I am, I'm full, you know, and I'm having fun.
00:19:17And, and so that afternoon, what my, my friend who his mom was the one that got us in, right?
00:19:24He comes to me and says, Hey, uh, I'm going to tell him, I'm going to, I got to go to
00:19:28stop and go.
00:19:29Uh, will you go with me?
00:19:31Which is a block away.
00:19:32Right.
00:19:32So somehow the leaders let us walk to stop and go.
00:19:35So we get outside and he's like, Hey man, I'm really going to buy us a piece of pizza.
00:19:40And I'm like, Oh man, I don't know if we should do that.
00:19:44We're fasting.
00:19:45So I'm sitting there playing it up, you know, and so I'm like, okay, I'll go with you.
00:19:49I don't, I don't want you to go alone.
00:19:51So we go down to stop and go and we get us a piece of pizza.
00:19:54He's like, don't tell anybody.
00:19:55So, oh man, I'm not going to tell anybody.
00:19:57So we get back and, uh, we go back and we play, we do our little service again and we
00:20:02go back and we're playing basketball and like all the other guys are just starving and I'm
00:20:08running around like, like, like I'm on crack or something.
00:20:10And, and my friends are like, man, you get all this energy.
00:20:13I'm like, the Lord's blessed me.
00:20:15I don't know.
00:20:16You know, so here I am, I'm on another, after another meal.
00:20:21So it gets worse.
00:20:22So I go, well, I don't know if it's worse, but anyway, they go out to the thing and I'm
00:20:26like, Hey, I got to go in the back again.
00:20:27I got to grab something.
00:20:28And I remembered that all the Sunday school rooms that were back by the kitchen had bowls
00:20:34of, of, uh, uh, uh, the little, uh, Hershey's kisses.
00:20:39And so I start going and I'm like, Oh, I got, I was smart.
00:20:43I'm like, well, if I eat all of them out of this bowl, someone's going to wonder what
00:20:46happened.
00:20:46So I went, there was like seven different rooms.
00:20:49So I took a little out of each room and now I'm like hyped up on sugar.
00:20:53And so I spent that whole weekend.
00:20:56I was so full by the time I got through the fast, it was, it was amazing.
00:21:01But, uh, and I, you know, looking back, I'm like, I knew like I wasn't cut out for this
00:21:07call thing, man.
00:21:08I couldn't even get through, you know, a two day fast with my friends, you know, and everyone
00:21:14else thought the spirit of the Lord has hit Darrell.
00:21:16He's gaining weight while the rest of us are shrinking.
00:21:18Yeah, it's like, I've been praying and fasting the Lord to help me gain weight for football
00:21:24season, you know, whatever, you know, oh my goodness.
00:21:28That is so bad.
00:21:29I, I've only told a few people that story, but that, that, that really, really happened.
00:21:34So, but yeah, um, and I'm, I'm sure, I'm sure you guys did the lock-ins, you know, uh,
00:21:40all the indoctrination where they, like I say, you know, they, they got you in there and
00:21:46this further drove home, you know, the, the, the, the cult and, and, you know, it's just
00:21:52looking back at it, it's, it's just, it's, it's very unfortunate because again, you know,
00:21:58your, your culture was just your little group, um, and you're very separated from, from everyone
00:22:05around you.
00:22:07And, um, and I, I'm like, I say, um, uh, as, and as time went on, the older I got, the more
00:22:16of the crazy that I was exposed to.
00:22:18And I remember at this same point in time, um, we had some friends in our little neighborhood.
00:22:25And one of the things that they always wanted you to do is bring other people in, right?
00:22:29And I'm sure you were the same way.
00:22:31And I had a friend that I had invited and, um, it's crazy because they live behind us
00:22:38and his parents took us, uh, to play putt-putt golf one night and they were like, Hey, I know
00:22:44you've invited our son, but I need to share something with you.
00:22:48Um, we were a part of that church before you joined it.
00:22:54And I was old enough.
00:22:55They were like, you know, I don't want to, they're, they, they were trying to be respectful,
00:22:59but they said, just so you know, um, we left because the pastor, they swap wives now, not
00:23:06the pastor I was under the one before us.
00:23:08Oh, wow.
00:23:09And yeah.
00:23:10And I don't know why they allow their son to go with me.
00:23:13He didn't only win a few times, but they, they brought me, I spent the night with them
00:23:19and they said, by the way, we have some things we want to give you.
00:23:22You can just take it to your home.
00:23:23We want, we want to get rid of it.
00:23:25And they went and they brought a bag of these books, a lot of her books and which we all
00:23:32know they were all copyrighted or, or plagiarized, I should say, uh, from other charts and graphs
00:23:38of other folks, including Branham, which they all stole them from.
00:23:42I can't remember what it was.
00:23:43It wasn't Parham.
00:23:44Do you remember?
00:23:45Larkin.
00:23:46Larkin.
00:23:46It was Larkin.
00:23:47It was Larkin.
00:23:48Yeah.
00:23:49So they, they sent me home with all those books.
00:23:53Um, and I remember when I was a kid, one of the first really crazy things like that besides,
00:24:01you know, you really didn't know how extensive this was, but there was a very prominent figure
00:24:07in the church and he, he, he became ill with what I, I'm assuming was cardiac disease, cardiovascular
00:24:15disease.
00:24:16And, um, Bernice, I wish I, I mean, hard time even calling her sister here because I just
00:24:22call her Bernice.
00:24:22But anyway, she had told this individual that I can't give any respect, um, that she had
00:24:31a physician that she knew that had eyes in his fingers.
00:24:34Okay.
00:24:35In Mexico.
00:24:36All right.
00:24:37And she sent this gentleman down and, um, God only knows what treatment he had, which
00:24:45was probably some holistic, weird stuff that he, you know, cooked up.
00:24:50Um, and he ended up having, I believe it was an M I and died shortly, shortly after, um,
00:24:57all that went down.
00:24:59And that really, that stuck with me because I looked around, I wasn't a dumb individual.
00:25:07Um, and I, I started like, like, man, that, that was unnecessary.
00:25:12Like, because I knew like, okay, no doctor, no one has eyes on their fingers, number one.
00:25:18Um, and then to, to go that far to convince someone so much so that they're willing to
00:25:26listen to you and then lose their own life.
00:25:28And that was, I can only imagine that happened over and over and over in different ways in,
00:25:34in all of these cults.
00:25:36Right.
00:25:36And I'm sure that, you know, um, I, you know, you probably experienced something, maybe not
00:25:42like that, but that whole thing of, of just basically taking this so far and, and it's,
00:25:49and such a crazy thing that you would convince someone to, to, to follow you into that.
00:25:55And then they would do it and I, I'm sure that, that, I don't know that I'm curious to
00:25:59know, did, did Branham, did he kind of poo poo some like, like, like contemporary or, or
00:26:05modern medicine or things like that?
00:26:07I don't know if you experienced that.
00:26:09Oh, absolutely.
00:26:10In your time.
00:26:11Absolutely.
00:26:11So this thing was built off of John Alexander Dowie.
00:26:14Dowie was the prototype for all of this and Dowie completely shunned medicine.
00:26:20He said the doctors were the devil's workers and completely, and except for whenever he
00:26:26needed his own medication, he would, you know, he would do his thing, but he would say, you
00:26:31have to have the faith to heal yourself and what happened.
00:26:35And so he was a fundamental pillar in Pentecostalism.
00:26:39Dowie was one of the, the two main sects that Charles Fox Parham visited to model and prototype
00:26:45his cult after, but what happened was people started doing this and people started dying
00:26:51and it turned over, it was turned over to the legal system and the legal system was really
00:26:58cracking down on this type of faith healing doctrines.
00:27:01And so what they did was insidious.
00:27:03There was a guy out of Dowie's cult named FF Bosworth, Fred Francis Bosworth.
00:27:09He's the one who mentored Branham in the healing revivals.
00:27:12And they come up with a scheme where the positive confession scheme, they, they basically put
00:27:18it on the shoulders of the people who were in the healing line, seeking healing said, you
00:27:23can, you can get the medicine, but God doesn't heal you through that medicine.
00:27:27You really need to come to us.
00:27:29And, and if, if you claim it, then you're healed.
00:27:33But if you go and you doubt, it's going to come on you even worse than you had it before.
00:27:37So it was this mind game, they started playing with the people and what happened was it's
00:27:44awful.
00:27:45When you think about it, when you think about cults and you think about like Jonestown where
00:27:50almost a thousand people gave their lives for Jim Jones, drinking the Kool-Aid, that's
00:27:56actually a small number.
00:27:57If you consider all of the people who were manipulated to believe that they had the power to heal
00:28:03themselves when they could have just had a little medication and lived, and there were
00:28:08people, many people who died.
00:28:11In fact, in the support groups, I have, I have friends who, their parents, one of their
00:28:16parents, maybe their mother needed some simple medication and she could have got it and she
00:28:22could have lived, but she wanted to have enough faith and power to cure herself.
00:28:26So she didn't take it.
00:28:28And then the pastors, they wash their hands of it and say, well, I never told her not to
00:28:31take her medicine.
00:28:32I just said, if she had enough faith, she wouldn't need the medicine.
00:28:35So it all turns into this mind game and it is a deadly mind game.
00:28:41Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of modern
00:28:46Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter reign, charismatic and other fringe movements
00:28:51into the new apostolic reformation?
00:28:54You can learn this and more on William Branham Historical Research's website, william-branham.org.
00:29:01On the books page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles
00:29:07Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon, and others, with links to the paper, audio, and
00:29:13digital versions of each book.
00:29:15You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those
00:29:21movements.
00:29:22If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the contribute
00:29:27button at the top.
00:29:28And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening
00:29:34to or watching.
00:29:35On behalf of William Branham Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support.
00:29:40We had a pastor later and we moved to North Dakota.
00:29:44And, um, unfortunately, um, his wife had, um, I, uh, kidney disease and, um, they were part
00:29:54of the, uh, word of faith and you're talking, um, Copeland and Hagen and all those guys.
00:30:00And what they, they taught that if you didn't get healed, you just didn't have enough faith.
00:30:05Right.
00:30:05And, um, she ended up passing.
00:30:08It was a tragic thing, um, that happened to her, but I always felt so bad because I know
00:30:16that she, even though she had this disease and she did seek medical treatment, I will
00:30:20give her that.
00:30:21Um, but you know, she was taught and I, I'm assuming she believed that she never was able
00:30:26to get over this because she just simply did not have enough faith.
00:30:29And, and, and that, that is very criminal, that, that is very criminal, um, very sad.
00:30:36But, um, so, but one of the things that besides that, we did church camps.
00:30:42Um, I wanted to, you know, I'm, and when I was in high school, we would go every year.
00:30:47And, um, I remember, um, we would get a special treat a couple of times and it was Bernice showing
00:30:53up in her limo or whatever.
00:30:55Um, and she would come and they would bring her down in front of all of us.
00:31:01And one of the things that I remember very, very distinctly about her is that she was
00:31:06never a happy person.
00:31:08She was always very assertive and dominant.
00:31:12And I think that was part of the persona.
00:31:14I think you had to be that dominant figure.
00:31:16So people would stay in line and we would be invited to ask her questions.
00:31:21And I don't know, I don't remember the questions, but I remember her sitting in this chair
00:31:25with a, with a, uh, blanket draped over her lap and just talking at us and barking at
00:31:33us.
00:31:33And, uh, we were never, it was never enough, right?
00:31:36We were never doing enough of the, of, of, of the works or whatever else.
00:31:39And she, everybody was afraid of her, man.
00:31:43She was, she was very intimidating.
00:31:45Um, when you give them that power and we, we, we were all in, right?
00:31:49We, we gave her that authority.
00:31:51She did not own it.
00:31:52There was nothing she did to earn it.
00:31:55Um, it was simply, she was a very twisted and sick human being and, um, came in and just,
00:32:01just like I say, it was, it was a very dark memory for me just to see her there.
00:32:06And then when she would get done spewing this, this stuff that made no sense to anyone.
00:32:10And then she would do that, ah, yes, scream, you know, when she'd get the quote unquote
00:32:15witness.
00:32:15Um, and then they would, she would get up and they would walk her and we would be, I'll
00:32:20be in awe and she'd go back to her limo and because that camp was, um, uh, I remember
00:32:26Circle J Ranch is what, um, and, um, she would, it was about an hour or so from Jeffersonville.
00:32:33It was about an hour north of, or east of, uh, so that was in Brown, not Brown County.
00:32:38Uh, it was on, uh, it was on 64 between Evansville and Jeffersonville.
00:32:43That's where that camp was.
00:32:44And Linville, I think is where it was.
00:32:46But anyway, I remember that, uh, very, very distinctly.
00:32:50And I mean, us poor kids, man, we were, the girls were on long skirts and we're out there
00:32:54playing basketball and softball and just sweating like dogs and no air conditioning.
00:33:00And it was nonstop indoctrination.
00:33:03We had classes, they'd split the boys and the girls up and, um, and I think the last
00:33:08year I went, Renee and I were, uh, we were engaged.
00:33:12Um, and, and so, um, again, I, I, I, I love my friends and I feel so bad, but so I look
00:33:20back at that and so many of the folks that were involved in that, most of them don't go
00:33:25to church now.
00:33:25I mean, very broken, uh, very similar stories to myself and, and they didn't deconstruct,
00:33:31they didn't do anything.
00:33:31And they just, they just, they said, forget all this, man, I'm out.
00:33:34You know, um, it was just, it was sad.
00:33:37And it, it, the, like, again, the power that she wielded, what was crazy.
00:33:43And, um, again, my wife and I were engaged during that period.
00:33:47And I ended up, we ended up, uh, getting married or, uh, we had set a date in like June
00:33:54or something like that.
00:33:55And, um, um, I went to visit Renee one day before Wednesday service and we sat and talked
00:34:00and with her family, my family, and I don't know how, why I don't understand, I don't
00:34:06remember.
00:34:06It's been a long time ago.
00:34:08So, um, we decided to get married earlier and we set the date of December 27th and I was
00:34:14in high school, but I wasn't a stupid person and I had a lot of credits already.
00:34:18And I, I just graduated early.
00:34:19I was, I had already achieved what I, you know, when I was accepted to, uh, Rose-Hulman
00:34:25and engineering school, you had to be, um, at that point in time, they had to actually
00:34:29ask you to apply.
00:34:30You couldn't just go apply.
00:34:32It was really hard to get in.
00:34:34And, and I, I was, I was able to do that.
00:34:36And, uh, you know, this whole, um, cult thing, but that's another story, but we decided
00:34:43to get married early.
00:34:44And, um, my childhood pastor, I decided I wanted him to be the one that presided over,
00:34:53you know, gave me my vows or whatever.
00:34:55And we were both going to a church, her church, and it was in Kentucky.
00:34:59It was a really small church.
00:35:01And the gentleman there was, he was a, a nice guy, um, very funny, very nice, but he was,
00:35:12he was not right.
00:35:12Uh, there was a lot of bad stuff going on.
00:35:15And, um, at that point in time, unfortunately, he was having, uh, extramarital affair with
00:35:22someone in the church.
00:35:24And as luck would have it, um, he was going to do Renee's vows.
00:35:29He said, well, we're going to renew our vows after you, we do your wedding.
00:35:35And like, okay, he's our authority figure.
00:35:38You can't touch, not be anointed.
00:35:40Right.
00:35:40So we didn't know what to do.
00:35:42So we just let it happen.
00:35:45And that was a very traumatic thing.
00:35:47Looking back for Renee, uh, and myself, but I remember my, uh, Renee just reminded me of
00:35:54this too.
00:35:55There, uh, my grandpa videotaped this.
00:35:58And there's a shot in the, in, in the videotape, we watched it back of the person that he was
00:36:03seeing crying while they're renewing his vows.
00:36:07And I'm sitting there like, man, like this is crazy.
00:36:11And it was, it was like, and again, you know, we see all this stuff every day, a new pastor,
00:36:18you know, there's a new revelation or whatever.
00:36:20And we were living this chaos and, and it, it, it made its way into our wedding.
00:36:26And, and, and, and it was already hard enough because her dad, who was a pastor in that organization,
00:36:34who by this time was not, she shared that a little bit of that story with you on her podcast.
00:36:40He didn't even show up.
00:36:41My dad walked Renee down the aisle and the whole thing, looking back, it was like how heavily influenced this whole thing was by, by the cult.
00:36:53I mean, they just basically took over something that was very precious to us and we were kids and they just, they didn't care.
00:37:01I mean, they just walked all over us and, and made it about this.
00:37:05And I don't, I, I pretty much, I'm pretty sure everyone knew what was going on, but no one would say anything.
00:37:11Right.
00:37:11Again, you can't come against the headship or, or whatever else.
00:37:15And I don't think they didn't make it much longer after that.
00:37:19Surprise, surprise, spoiler alert.
00:37:21But yeah, it was, it was really sad.
00:37:24It was like, like I say, it's unfortunate.
00:37:26These, these leaders would, I mean, we were just their play things.
00:37:32Right.
00:37:32And this whole bizarre, crazy story, you know, and I just, I, I'm, I'm sure you probably witnessed things like this as well.
00:37:40I, you know, but, but yeah, that, that to, to this day, that was one of the biggest things that, that really, really hurt us.
00:37:50And, and again, going through the deconstruction process, that was one of the big things that we had to deal with.
00:37:56And it was very, very sad, but, but, but it's, it's our story, you know, it's what happened to us.
00:38:01It is sad.
00:38:02And, you know, a lot of people, whenever they're going through the process of deconstructing, they look at the really hard times and they, they, as your mind is trying to detangle what happened to you, you look at those bad times as though they were traumatic.
00:38:17And they, and truly some of them are, however, I've also noticed, and other people that have escaped have noticed, without those hard times, you may not have been able to completely deconstruct.
00:38:31So sometimes it's the hard experiences that help you get where you are today.
00:38:35Yeah, the, the, definitely.
00:38:37And what the, the beautiful part of that is, is that it, it helps fuel that desire to, to change and to, to, as a, as a parent, not have your children go through that same thing.
00:38:54And so it not only fuels that deconstruction part of it, but also fuels the reconstruction and reconstructing things in a, in a safer, healthier manner.
00:39:02Again, you, you, you, we all say, you know, you want to leave things better than, than what you found them.
00:39:07And that's kind of, that was one of the big things that, that really helped drive that.
00:39:12So we ended up getting married and we moved.
00:39:17I went into, to, to college in Missouri.
00:39:20We moved to Missouri right after, we lived with my parents for a while.
00:39:24And while we were there, my dad kind of came back into the, the church.
00:39:30And again, like I say, on and off, and this is another really hard thing that really has driven me, is that, that pastor, he was basically just, we were, everyone was poor.
00:39:43My dad had a good job and he was very selfless human being, which, which, you know, he was a reason why I, I'm a very, very giving person.
00:39:54And I, not saying that for any other reason, that I saw that, my mom and dad both, actually, both of them, very, very giving.
00:40:03And my dad was going through classes and became an associate pastor in that small church, briefly.
00:40:08And my dad didn't have much because, again, he, he, he took care of us and was very giving.
00:40:15And I don't know how this came about.
00:40:18I don't know if that pastor convinced my dad to do this or if my dad did it on his own.
00:40:23I can't imagine.
00:40:24I think it was a combination of the two.
00:40:25I can't say because I don't know.
00:40:26But my dad had road motorcycles his whole life and that was a passion of his.
00:40:32And he had a Harley that he would get down and take black paint and any of the little road chips in the bottom, he would lay down and he would touch up every little imperfection.
00:40:44That thing was beautiful.
00:40:46It was immaculate.
00:40:47It was a beautiful motorcycle.
00:40:50He sold that and I was like, what are you doing?
00:40:53And he was like, well, I feel like, you know, I, you know, God wants me, whatever.
00:40:57I watched him take that money.
00:40:59I was in a white envelope, just a small letter envelope, not a big one.
00:41:04And he walked down and put that in the plate.
00:41:08And that broke my heart, just absolutely broke my heart.
00:41:13And I was so angry because any normal human being that, that thinks like, you know, norm,
00:41:22in a normal term, you know, just whatever, not twisted like these individuals were,
00:41:26I would have pulled him aside after church and handed that back to him and said, man, I know what this meant to you.
00:41:33Go buy another bike, right?
00:41:36But that didn't happen.
00:41:37And that's one of the things that I'm still, if I'm honest, I'm still angry about it because, again, that meant a lot to him.
00:41:47And that still, like I say, sticks with me because I knew that this guy wasn't honest, the pastor.
00:41:55And I knew a lot of the things that were going on.
00:41:57And by this time, I was, you know, like 17 to 18 years old.
00:42:01And I was like, man, this is, this is, this is twisted.
00:42:04And, but anyway, we moved.
00:42:08And my dad eventually wasn't, you know, associated with him any longer.
00:42:12And, and my, and we moved to Missouri and I went to college.
00:42:16And I remember when I got to college, I started thinking differently.
00:42:23I started seeing things from a different world, world, world viewpoint, right?
00:42:28And you're in these classes.
00:42:31And I wasn't, I just remember this part.
00:42:33I remember this one teacher.
00:42:36And I, it made me so mad when he said it.
00:42:38I don't know how he got off on it.
00:42:39He was an English teacher about John, the revelator.
00:42:43And he said, I think he was smoking dope when he wrote revelators, whatever.
00:42:47And it made me really angry.
00:42:48And he was like, that stuff's crazy.
00:42:50But looking back, what that did to me is I'm like, I wonder, I wonder, you know, like, is everything that I read, is it true?
00:43:01Or like, like, why, why do I believe what I believe?
00:43:04And I started questioning things very heavily.
00:43:08And I remember one day I was in the library, school libraries, working on a paper.
00:43:11And I stumbled across this, there were seven of them, if I remember correctly.
00:43:16And they were Jewish history books.
00:43:18And I was like, what is this?
00:43:20And so I checked them out, like two or three of them.
00:43:23And I started reading.
00:43:23And I was like, oh, my God.
00:43:27It was stuff that Bernice was teaching.
00:43:31And it was fantasy.
00:43:33And I'm assuming it was Jewish mysticism.
00:43:36I'm guessing that's what that was.
00:43:37Yeah, Jewish mysticism.
00:43:40Yeah.
00:43:40And so I would read these things.
00:43:42And I went to my pastor.
00:43:44I'm like, we got to talk.
00:43:46And he was a good guy.
00:43:48He was just a country guy in a rural Christ's Gospel church in Missouri.
00:43:52And instead of like, oh, my God, this is crazy.
00:43:56He preached a sermon on one of the things I shared with him.
00:43:59I'm like, what?
00:44:01I'm like, that's not what I was thinking.
00:44:04And I'm like, and so it was wild.
00:44:08But, John, there were so many things that were in her books that were in those books.
00:44:16It was the same thing.
00:44:18And I'm assuming that I'm guessing some of it was plagiarized.
00:44:22I'm sure it had to have been.
00:44:25And so I started to develop this mindset that, man, like, this stuff isn't real, man.
00:44:34Like, at least what we're being taught.
00:44:37And so the church ended up splitting because, I'll give that gentleman credit, Bernice would call.
00:44:46And he was like, oh, man, she chewed me out because he wasn't teaching what she was teaching.
00:44:52And I made, as I look back, what I think was a very poor decision.
00:44:57I stayed in Christ's Gospel because my family was in it.
00:45:00And most of my friends that got me there, and I was actually best friends with one of his sons.
00:45:07And we cried and cried because we knew what this meant, right?
00:45:12Like, we couldn't be friends, which is asinine.
00:45:15And that's exactly what happened.
00:45:17And we ended up getting a pastor that I went to church camp with that he was a toddler.
00:45:26I mean, he was a kid.
00:45:28And he married one of the girls that we knew, and she wasn't extremely nice.
00:45:34And I was like, man, what is going on?
00:45:37I got this kid now as our pastor.
00:45:40So he came to me in one of my more brilliant moments because I was starting to really, let me know this to myself, deconstruct from this.
00:45:49And said, man, you're called to be a pastor and blah, blah, blah, which we were, John, I'm sure you were told you were called to be a pastor.
00:45:55I mean, we were all called, right?
00:45:56It was one of the ways I kept this in.
00:45:59And so we started doing pastoral classes, which we had to buy the books we didn't have the money for.
00:46:06And what we bought were these workbooks that were direct quotes from her books, which were quotes from somebody else.
00:46:15But, you know, truthfully, and we'd fill in the blanks to get a certificate.
00:46:22And so we were in this class one day, and one of my other best friends that was with me during the fasting, you know,
00:46:31that wasn't the one that walked to get the pizza.
00:46:33And so he was like, we were sitting there, and the guy said, started talking about how to control the church.
00:46:42And we were like, looking at each other like, what?
00:46:45And so he said, well, you have to politic the church members to get them, you know, to put them where you need them to be.
00:46:54And so I'm going to use my hand.
00:46:55I'm like, do you mean lie?
00:46:58No, no, no, no, no, no.
00:46:59We're going to politic them.
00:47:00I said, man, I think you mean lie.
00:47:05And so I was just like, we got out of that class, and my buddy called me.
00:47:09You know, back then we had cell phones, you know, and I was like, man, what do you think?
00:47:13I said, I think it's crazy, man.
00:47:15Like, he's like, I don't think we should go back.
00:47:18And we ended up like, man, like, you know, we're going to press pause on this.
00:47:23And, you know, it was sad because that poor kid just literally, they spent their honeymoon at that church.
00:47:32They were living upstairs in a temporary, in his office.
00:47:38And it was just so sad until they could find themselves.
00:47:41And they didn't stay long, and I don't think they're still together.
00:47:44I think it was just, it was another example where what they would do is they would just take these people and just move them around.
00:47:53They would go to the witness room, right, which we talked about that, right?
00:47:57Yeah, we did.
00:47:57I think last time.
00:47:59I don't know if you remember.
00:47:59Yeah.
00:48:00And so these people would just make these life decisions for folks.
00:48:04And, I mean, I don't even think they believed it either.
00:48:06And they would move these families all around the country, right?
00:48:11And so that's what happened to this young man.
00:48:16And basically, you know, he left.
00:48:22And they said, and another gentleman who they moved from another failed church in Indiana.
00:48:29And this guy would get up, and he kept talking about, he called his sermon the Little Red House of Pain.
00:48:37And he was very angry because he had to uproot his whole family.
00:48:41And he proceeded to browbeat us every single sermon.
00:48:46And I, and it was all about pain and suffering, and we're not worthy.
00:48:51And it was, it was just, and during this time, I started getting back into my deconstruction.
00:48:59And I, because I was like, Renee, this isn't healthy.
00:49:01This isn't healthy.
00:49:01This isn't healthy.
00:49:02And we were youth pastors at the time.
00:49:05And we started having kids come to us with heavy, heavy, heavy stuff that was going on in their families.
00:49:13And the church split again, and they got rid of that pastor.
00:49:18And, and, um, during this time, it got really, really ugly.
00:49:23And we, I told Renee, I said, I've had enough.
00:49:29And, uh, Renee told some stories in her podcast.
00:49:32And one of the pastors, um, that she referenced was one of the directors, a district elder or whatever they called them.
00:49:41Um, and I called him up and I said, listen, there's a lot of really bad stuff going on in this church.
00:49:48A lot of, uh, you know, just, just chaos.
00:49:51And he basically told me to shut up and stay in line.
00:49:55And I told Renee, and that was a, that, that was a very, uh, important person in Renee and I, both of our lives.
00:50:02We had been friends with these folks for a long time.
00:50:05And that I didn't know what to do with all this, right?
00:50:08I had all these heavy things going on with these kids.
00:50:11And at the same time, I took a job and, um, I was a nurse at that point.
00:50:17I was out of nursing school and I started selling devices.
00:50:21And I came in contact with some really cool people that were also people of faith.
00:50:28And I went to these meetings and these, and, and, and they would have a beer or a glass of wine or whatever.
00:50:33And I was like, I thought they were, you know, like, wait, they're Christian.
00:50:36They're not Christians.
00:50:37And, and, but then I got to know them and they were amazing people.
00:50:40And I was like, now I'm like, oh my God, what, what am I going to do with all this?
00:50:45You know?
00:50:45And so that was kind of the story you told.
00:50:48I loved, uh, in one of your podcasts that you're talking about the glass of wine.
00:50:53I absolutely love that because I lived that moment myself.
00:50:57Wow.
00:50:58And it, you know, yeah, yeah.
00:51:00And it was like one of these things where I'm like, I came home and I said, Renee, we really
00:51:05have to start thinking about this whole thing because unbeknownst to us, there are normal
00:51:09people out there that don't live like this that are Christians.
00:51:13And I, and I really appreciate you sharing that story because I laughed.
00:51:16It was in one of your podcasts.
00:51:18And I told Reza, you got to watch this one because you're going to really understand what
00:51:22John went through.
00:51:23But I, you know, and I, I, again, I was kind of like, I don't know when you went through
00:51:28that moment, I don't know if that was kind of one of the epiphanies you had, or, you
00:51:32know, when you started rubbing shoulders with people that were normal, that were Christians
00:51:36as well.
00:51:37But, you know, I, I'm sure you went through that.
00:51:40Yeah.
00:51:40I mean, for me, the bottom line is that I learned that there were normal people out there, but
00:51:45more than that, I learned that I wasn't normal.
00:51:49So that was one of the, one of the things that hit me and, you know, we were so indoctrinated
00:51:56to think it was life or death, heaven or hell, these little things.
00:52:01And I mean, the greatest miracle that Jesus did in the Bible, one of the, one of the biggest
00:52:05miracles is the water to wine, right?
00:52:08It's in all of the movies.
00:52:09It's in all of the story.
00:52:10We had sermons talking about how Jesus turned water into wine and then out of the same breath,
00:52:16but don't you drink it now.
00:52:17And so, I'm like, well, what on earth were we thinking, man?
00:52:22How, how are we that stupid?
00:52:24Yeah.
00:52:24Yeah.
00:52:24I, I remember a class that, I don't know, do you remember the name Jim Caseman?
00:52:29No, I don't.
00:52:30Yeah, that's okay.
00:52:31So, Jim Caseman was one of the pastors in the Eight Word of Faith movement, and we were
00:52:37doing these Bible classes.
00:52:38Once again, we got our, found ourselves, you know, in one of the situations when we were
00:52:43in North Dakota, where we were kind of getting indoctrinated again and kind of getting back
00:52:47into it.
00:52:48And we, one of the classes, we were talking about the water and the wine.
00:52:53He did a whole series on how they, there were all these different, there was two or three
00:52:59different words for wine in the Bible.
00:53:01Some was fermented, some was unfermented.
00:53:02And he was trying to prove to us in these classes that, you know, it was unfermented
00:53:10wine, but he couldn't get this, he couldn't line up the scriptures to say it.
00:53:14And so, the gist of it was that, well, it's the spirit of what God says in some of these
00:53:19passages.
00:53:19So, you can't really take it literally.
00:53:21You have to understand, well, God's heart isn't for you to drink real wine.
00:53:23And so, it couldn't be fermented wine when in fact it really was.
00:53:28But anyway, and that was like, and I told Rene, we were doing these classes and by now
00:53:34I'm having glasses of wine and stuff.
00:53:36And I knew, I'm like, okay, I got to get out of this because, because I'm not being
00:53:40very honest with these people.
00:53:41But I told Rene, I said, I was more convinced than ever that it was real wine.
00:53:45And then God doesn't have a problem with you drinking wine after that class than I was
00:53:49before the class.
00:53:50I'm like, he had the, the opposite effect on me for sure.
00:53:54And so, we, you know, it was just crazy.
00:53:58And it, but going back to just kind of realizing how abnormal we were when you start to get
00:54:06out in the real world and meet people that were normal.
00:54:11And so, we were still in Missouri at that point when I was meeting these folks and started
00:54:17really coming to the realization that, you know, we got to get out of here.
00:54:23Right.
00:54:24And I remember I went away to a meeting and I came back and I shared a little bit about
00:54:34this last time, but Rene had decided like, okay, I, I, I get it.
00:54:40Like we, we, our kids, my daughter's wearing skirts.
00:54:42She's, she's starting middle school.
00:54:46And Rene said, I don't want my family to go through what I went through.
00:54:50Right.
00:54:51And these poor kids have been indoctrinated and taught so many bad things.
00:54:56And I remember coming back and Rene was like, you know, she visited another church and it
00:55:04went very poorly.
00:55:05And she went back and she ended up cutting her hair, which was a big no, no.
00:55:09Right.
00:55:10And some, and, and so I remember going, she went back.
00:55:14Um, I, well, I came home from the meeting.
00:55:17She cut her hair and I left again because I was doing my training.
00:55:20I had to do a lot of training courses, like a week at a time.
00:55:22And I had to go back and she visited another church and she felt horrible because we were
00:55:27still struggling.
00:55:28We were just, just had gotten out of this.
00:55:30And she went back and visited and she was treated so poorly by people that we thought were,
00:55:35you know, near and dear to us.
00:55:38And, um, again, looking back, I was so angry because she called me and she was in balling
00:55:44and I had to try to console her from Minnesota, you know, and she's up there, down there in
00:55:49Missouri.
00:55:49And, um, it was another one of those moments when you look back that again, fuel you because
00:55:57we were basically told like, like, Hey, you guys messed up.
00:56:01But, but if you do this and do this and do this or don't do this and don't do that, then
00:56:05you can come back in.
00:56:06Right.
00:56:07And I remember having a meeting with the pastor and like, told him, I was like, we're out.
00:56:13Like I, I, we're not coming back.
00:56:15I said, I'm going to meet with the kids.
00:56:16I said, let me tell the youth group.
00:56:17So I, I, I met with him after an event we had and it was a lot of tears.
00:56:23It was, it was, it was brutal.
00:56:25And I remember, I think I shared this last time, him calling me and said, you know, Hey,
00:56:29are you sure you're going to miss out on the prize?
00:56:30And I'm like, man, I don't know what kind of prize you think you got, but, but, but
00:56:37I, I, I've seen enough, you know, I think you didn't want to very, you know, you got
00:56:42a gag gift is what you got.
00:56:44You know what I mean?
00:56:45You didn't get a prize.
00:56:47And, and so, um, and, and so we left and we went to, um, and this time, at this point in
00:56:56our lives, we started, um, uh, you know, deciding that, Hey, you know, you know, um, again, deconstructing
00:57:05when you didn't know you're deconstructing.
00:57:06And that's quite a journey, man.
00:57:08You know, when people who've never experienced anything like this come in contact with people,
00:57:12they, I, I experienced it too.
00:57:15When people see me and they hear that I'm out of this cult, they want to use my head like
00:57:19a Guinea pig, ask all these questions and figure out who I am and how they, how this
00:57:24cult ruined me is essentially what they're trying to get at.
00:57:27But what they don't realize is that's not truly the case.
00:57:32It's that the sum of our experiences is what makes us who we are.
00:57:36And we went through, yes, a very, very bad thing.
00:57:39We had some really hard experiences, awful things that most people will never, ever experience,
00:57:45but it helped us make us, it helped to make us who we are today.
00:57:50So as you have these experiences and you overcome them, you, I hate to use the term, but what,
00:57:56what doesn't kill you makes you stronger.
00:57:58So as we're coming, coming through this and getting stronger, it's quite a journey.
00:58:03So thank you for sharing this with us.
00:58:05Yeah, no, no, I hope, hopefully it helps folks.
00:58:08I know, um, taking, as I look at the, my only, uh, advice to folks would be as you go and you,
00:58:17you, you enter the, the rebuilding phase of things, just being able to go back and, and,
00:58:22and, and trying to work through them and not be as so angry and just use those things to,
00:58:29to help remind you of where you came from and to help you not go back.
00:58:33I think that's the biggest thing.
00:58:35Don't forget.
00:58:36Like, you don't, don't, you, you have to learn these lessons.
00:58:38Absolutely.
00:58:39Re-victimization is, it's a thing.
00:58:41It's real.
00:58:42And there are people who escape.
00:58:43And then what happens is they try to enter a new group and try to join something else.
00:58:49And they've not really had those experiences.
00:58:52Like, like we mentioned earlier, the culture, it's culture shock when they try to go to a
00:58:57new group.
00:58:58And so they try to go back to what's comfortable and they find a comfortable place.
00:59:03Sadly, after you leave a cult, what's comfortable is another cult.
00:59:07So it's, it's one of those things that you gotta be really careful and you have to, like I did,
00:59:13I took the time and I tried to learn the culture and tried to, try to understand what it is
00:59:18I'm leaving and what it is I'm heading towards.
00:59:20So I fully agree.
00:59:23Re-victimization is difficult, but again, thank you so much for doing this.
00:59:27Yeah.
00:59:28Yeah.
00:59:28No, you're welcome.
00:59:29Thank you for letting me come back.
00:59:31Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you want to share your story, you can check us out
00:59:34on the web.
00:59:35You can find us at william-branham.org for more about the dark side of the new apostolic reformation.
00:59:41You can read Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR.
00:59:45Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.
01:00:11You can find us at william-branham.org for more about the new apostolic reformation.
01:00:16You can find us at william-branham.org for more about the new apostolic reformation.
01:00:18You can find us at william-branham.org for more about the new apostolic reformation.
01:00:20You can find us at william-branham.org for more about the new apostolic reformation.
01:00:21You can find us at william-branham.org for more about the new apostolic reformation.
01:00:23You can find us at william-branham.org for more about the new apostolic reformation.
01:00:25You can find us at william-branham.org for more about the new apostolic reformation.
01:00:27You can find us at william-branham.org for more about the new apostolic reformation.