Support the show:
https://www.patreon.com/branham
Available on Spotify, Google, and Apple Podcasts:
https://william-branham.org/podcast
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
John invites Adam Short ack to discuss the fallout from scandals at Morningstar and other similar organizations, including IHOP-KC and Bethel. A significant theme is the manipulation and mind control tactics that leaders employ, which result in members disconnecting from critical thinking. These leaders are positioned as mediators between God and man, causing followers to unquestioningly accept their authority and teachings, even when faced with serious allegations of misconduct. The podcast touches on how these leaders are often restored to power despite their wrongdoings, leading to an unhealthy cycle of abuse and cover-up.
Adam Short shares personal insights from his experience within Morningstar, providing a unique insider perspective on how these movements elevate leaders to near-divine status. The conversation also delves into the psychology of how followers are trained to seek "nuggets" of divine truth within the chaotic and often nonsensical teachings of these leaders. As the discussion evolves, both John and Adam reflect on the broader implications for former members, who often wrestle with questions about their faith and salvation after leaving. They also explore the wider spiritual abuse that results from the gaslighting tactics employed by these groups, making it difficult for individuals to trust their own judgment.
00:00 Introduction
01:12 Morningstar Scandal and Lawsuits Overview
03:08 Information Control and the Playbook of Charismatic Leaders
05:04 Spiritual Abuse in the Hyper-Charismatic Movement
07:23 Role of Church Leaders as Mediators and the Resulting Blind Trust
09:18 Inside View: Adam's Experience at Morningstar
11:56 Influence of Prophetic Culture and Its Manipulative Tactics
14:48 Historical Context: Latter Rain and William Branham
16:35 Restoration of Fallen Leaders: Rick Joyner's Role
19:00 Morningstar's Leadership Structure and its Impact on Members
21:25 Deconstruction Journey: Wrestling with Past Experiences
24:00 The Problem of Combining Salvation and the Movement
27:40 The Complexity of Discerning Truth in Charismatic Movements
30:01 Manipulation Through Confusing Speech Patterns
32:45 Bob Jones and the Issue of Nonsensical Teachings
35:00 Mimicry of Leaders and the Creation of a Cult-Like Following
38:23 The Effects of COVID-19 on Cult Dynamics
41:30 Advice for Current Members to Disconnect and Reflect
45:02 The Psychological Impact of Taking on the Leader’s Identity
47:30 Concluding Thoughts on Morningstar and the Charismatic Movement
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-l
https://www.patreon.com/branham
Available on Spotify, Google, and Apple Podcasts:
https://william-branham.org/podcast
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
John invites Adam Short ack to discuss the fallout from scandals at Morningstar and other similar organizations, including IHOP-KC and Bethel. A significant theme is the manipulation and mind control tactics that leaders employ, which result in members disconnecting from critical thinking. These leaders are positioned as mediators between God and man, causing followers to unquestioningly accept their authority and teachings, even when faced with serious allegations of misconduct. The podcast touches on how these leaders are often restored to power despite their wrongdoings, leading to an unhealthy cycle of abuse and cover-up.
Adam Short shares personal insights from his experience within Morningstar, providing a unique insider perspective on how these movements elevate leaders to near-divine status. The conversation also delves into the psychology of how followers are trained to seek "nuggets" of divine truth within the chaotic and often nonsensical teachings of these leaders. As the discussion evolves, both John and Adam reflect on the broader implications for former members, who often wrestle with questions about their faith and salvation after leaving. They also explore the wider spiritual abuse that results from the gaslighting tactics employed by these groups, making it difficult for individuals to trust their own judgment.
00:00 Introduction
01:12 Morningstar Scandal and Lawsuits Overview
03:08 Information Control and the Playbook of Charismatic Leaders
05:04 Spiritual Abuse in the Hyper-Charismatic Movement
07:23 Role of Church Leaders as Mediators and the Resulting Blind Trust
09:18 Inside View: Adam's Experience at Morningstar
11:56 Influence of Prophetic Culture and Its Manipulative Tactics
14:48 Historical Context: Latter Rain and William Branham
16:35 Restoration of Fallen Leaders: Rick Joyner's Role
19:00 Morningstar's Leadership Structure and its Impact on Members
21:25 Deconstruction Journey: Wrestling with Past Experiences
24:00 The Problem of Combining Salvation and the Movement
27:40 The Complexity of Discerning Truth in Charismatic Movements
30:01 Manipulation Through Confusing Speech Patterns
32:45 Bob Jones and the Issue of Nonsensical Teachings
35:00 Mimicry of Leaders and the Creation of a Cult-Like Following
38:23 The Effects of COVID-19 on Cult Dynamics
41:30 Advice for Current Members to Disconnect and Reflect
45:02 The Psychological Impact of Taking on the Leader’s Identity
47:30 Concluding Thoughts on Morningstar and the Charismatic Movement
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-l
Category
📚
LearningTranscript
00:00You
00:31Hello and welcome to another episode of the William Branham historical research
00:35podcast. I'm your host John Collins the author and founder of William Branham
00:40historical research at william-branham.org and with me I have my very
00:45special guest Adam Short former member of Morningstar who's been on the show
00:51in the past and Adam whenever we were talking and you mentioned Morningstar
00:56last I thought you know with everything that's going on it would be good to talk
01:00to somebody who had a little bit of an inside view which you apparently have
01:04well I can't claim to have too much of an inside view it's been a long time but
01:09happy to talk about my experience and hopefully you know provide some context
01:14and shed light on kind of the big scandal that's hit at Morningstar here
01:19in the past few weeks yeah it's it's kind of crazy I've avoided you know for
01:24the most part I've avoided anything to do with the deep details of what's
01:29going on because you know all of that's gonna come out in the I guess apparently
01:34in the lawsuit but there's a lot of the framework that exists that enables
01:40things like this to happen which is part of the reason I wanted to have you on
01:44the show because you know in a normal church there are a lot of safeguards
01:50that prevent these kind of things from happening and absolutely you know
01:56having grown up in this type of religion and you know even though we
02:00weren't charismatic we were the precursor to it whenever something like
02:05this would happen I would look at it in the cult mindset and I would think to
02:09myself well that could happen in any church and this is just another you
02:15know figurehead who has fallen but once I actually started attending new
02:20churches and watching the structure how the structures were set up and all of
02:24the checks and balances that were in place I had to rethink that quite a bit
02:28because this yes it can happen in a normal church but there's there are a
02:34lot of things that have to fall into place magically for it to happen and
02:38when it does the blast radius is quite limited yeah I think that's a good point
02:44we continue to see what I think is a very similar playbook if you look at I
02:51op KC watch the propaganda watch the information control watch the narrative
02:58spin watch the PR experts or don't put the come in Morningstar has been a
03:05little bit different I think and I'm happy to talk through my thoughts on
03:10that but but if you zoom out a little bit you look at the lawsuit by the way
03:14there were two other lawsuits that were filed so there now are three lawsuits
03:18one of them was filed yesterday September 5th the other one was filed
03:22September 3rd so now we have three lawsuits and if you take the time like I
03:26do and some others who are in the advocate space to read through it's it's
03:30it's graphic I will say it's a trigger warning for people sensitive to these
03:35subjects but so just be aware of that but the the the deep allegations and
03:41actually to be frank this particular perpetrator has been criminally charged
03:47and he did not show up in court yesterday and so there's actually a
03:51bench warrant for his arrest so we're talking information control we're
03:58talking you mentioned blast radius for example I think that in this case the
04:04blast radius is pretty widespread because IHOP is so recent that I think
04:10so many people are so aware so much more aware to clergy sexual abuse as opposed
04:16to maybe even a few years ago when it was not as much on people's radar but
04:22given what has happened at IHOP what has happened at Gateway Church Robert Morris
04:27and then some other scandals that have come out recently people are aware of it
04:32and and the information control they tried to tamp that down but it's it's
04:40just at this point it's just like dominoes I think this kind of falling
04:45down you know looking at this from the outside in which is what I'm doing I see
04:49so many similarities into just the setup of how it was able to happen whenever
04:55you have people who claim that they have some spiritual gift and spiritual effect
05:01the rank-and-file members in this thing look at these people as though almost
05:06like they're gods I mean yes they obviously don't call them gods but they
05:11they're the they're basically they've in effect become the mediator between God
05:16and man yeah and so their guards are all down they're not suspecting these kind
05:20of things to happen oh absolutely oh my gosh that is such a can of worms I will
05:26just say you know just to dovetail my experience with Morningstar I have not
05:30been there in a long time we live in the backyard I don't want to say
05:35literal backyard but it's the next town over Fort Mill from us so literally you
05:42know it's a very short drive to Morningstar and it's on the heritage USA
05:46property which is the old PTL property that Jim and Tammy Faye Baker made
05:51famous back in the 80s and there's a whole story behind that but to your
05:56point about these people these leaders in these churches like Morningstar do
06:02set themselves up whether it's intentional or not I'd like to still
06:07believe that there's a shred of sincerity that's maybe more than
06:12sincerity but like they actually think that they're doing something good for
06:16the world but they do set themselves up in a position of like a priest like an
06:21Old Testament priest where it is the mediation between the the laity or you
06:28know the the little peon people the commoners as it were between them and
06:34God and I think what happens is there are a lot of reasons for that for this
06:39but I think what ends up happening is you have a culture that continues to
06:43boost boost boost these people on pedestals to where they're untouchable
06:47and they can do no wrong and so when you have a scandal like this at Morningstar
06:53you know Rick Joyner's coming out pretty pretty public like he's commenting
06:59almost in real time about the scandal and he's saying that they investigated
07:05they did a thorough investigation internally they reported it to the
07:09police and that you know they did all the right things but everybody's story
07:16is not lining up like they're they're mismatching of facts here so somebody's
07:20not telling the full truth but there are still people who really back Rick and
07:26back all the leaders and they think that they walk on water and they think that
07:29there's no wrong these these guys can do and nothing can be further from the
07:33truth and unfortunately it is oftentimes a secondary abuse that happens with
07:42these leaders that causes even more and I don't want to minimize the initial
07:46abuse that happened with these victims that is atrocious and horrific but the
07:51secondary fallout that happens where people are spiritually abused gas lit
07:57and led to believe that there's nothing that these leaders can do wrong that
08:02right there that impact is real and it takes a toll it's taking a huge toll on
08:07people who ultimately and in a lot of cases just choose to walk away from
08:11Christianity entirely and I don't blame them for doing that honestly after
08:16experiencing such a toxic environment like this yeah it's so hard I mean
08:21whenever you have been manipulated to disable critical thought and critical
08:27thinking and even a step beyond that you're in many cases you're taught that
08:32critical thinking is quote the debt quote-unquote the devil speaking to your
08:37head we grew up in scenarios where that if you had a question it was because the
08:42devil was making you question it was that kind of thing and that that has
08:47just progressed into the NAR for some reason they they do not like the
08:50critical thinking and when you cannot apply critical thinking to your leader
08:55and something like this happens what response can be trustworthy at all
09:01because when something like this happens it shocks you and suddenly you realize
09:06that number one I should have been critical thinking I should have been
09:09critically examining everything and I wasn't so whenever you hear a statement
09:14no matter even if it's wide out in the open and he's completely being open and
09:20honest with all of the details that he has you still can't trust her because in
09:24the past nothing nothing was critically examined one of the things when you
09:29start talking about critical thinking if you look at what's happening
09:35literally present tense right now with the Morningstar lawsuits in particular
09:40you look at the facts that are being alleged right everything that's being
09:45alleged in these lawsuits and then you have people like Rick Joyner standing up
09:50and he's giving his version of the facts which are different than what is being
09:56laid out in these lawsuits and different than what is being reported by
10:01victims the question becomes the people at the bottom of the totem pole what do
10:09they choose to believe are they going to are they going to believe what is in a
10:12lawsuit complaint or they're going to believe what Rick Joyner says they're
10:20probably going to believe what Rick Joyner says and here's the filter it goes
10:22through right when you live in a prophetic culture and prophecy is very
10:27very emphasized in Morningstar just like it is a Bethel and I up KC those that's
10:31the trifecta of the hyper charismatic movement right there and I've been in
10:35all of them I've been in Bethel I was neck deep in Bethel I was probably waist
10:39deep at IHOP and I was maybe chest deep at Morningstar and that is the
10:45trifecta of the hyper charismatic movement that now I've learned really
10:49was the a large to a large degree of fruit of the you know the latter rain
10:54and William Branham stuff and I'm getting to a point here back to the
10:59people in the church right so think about people and we know people still in
11:03Morningstar and you know it's a delicate line walk because you know some of them
11:09still appear to be supporting the church and believing the narrative that comes
11:14out officially from the church and it's really painful to watch that but the
11:18filter this stuff goes through is you got the lawsuit over here right you got
11:23actually have three lawsuits over here alleging all these facts and then you
11:27have the quote-unquote official church narrative over here on the other side
11:31which is you know all your leaders basically telling you what to believe
11:35what happened in the past and those two don't jive and so at the end of the day
11:40I think what a lot of people end up believing is well I've got to run
11:45anything I read from any source besides this environment of church I've got to
11:52I've got a filter through the prophetic lens and so you end up with a skewed
11:58reality literally like and and people cannot simply accept facts and that is
12:04just one of the effects of the further spiritual abuse that happens is people
12:08are people are gaslit to believe that they can't trust their own five senses
12:13they can't trust their brain they can't trust their eyes you might be seeing
12:17this with your eyes you might be hearing this with your ears but don't believe it
12:21believe what I tell you as the church leader right because I am I am the
12:26authority and they won't come out and actually say it that way but they they
12:30sugarcoat it in a way to where at the end of the day you are left at you were
12:37left believing that you're the problem and you have a lack of faith if you
12:43choose not to believe the prophetic message that's being you know sort of
12:48spun from the from the top of the pulpit so anyway there's a lot to unpack there
12:53but I think that that is another contributing factor back to your
12:57original point John for why in the hyper charismatic churches like this the blast
13:01radius ends up being so wide because people are predisposed disposition and
13:07condition to sort of look the other way and you move yourself up the echelons of
13:12leadership and it's just increasing what's what sort of like for increasing
13:19sort of look the other way this isn't really happening it's like I need to
13:25keep my faith and just deny that the realities of what's going on here the
13:29bottom line really is this the this movement before it turned into
13:34charismania the movement created a culture where the culture itself
13:40absorbed anything that was that should be taken critically and there were you
13:46know if you go back to the historical podcast that Charles and I did there are
13:51all kinds of things that were happening some of which were too graphic for me to
13:55really even say in a podcast YouTube takes my video down but there were
14:00things like you know William Branham surrounded himself with several
14:03homosexual men during an era when it was illegal to practice homosexuality and
14:09some of those men got caught apparently and the accusations were that Branham
14:14himself was also but the movement just kind of looked the other way because
14:20like you said it's the prophetic movement he's God's prophet so God
14:25placed these men here for some purpose for the prophet is I think the mentality
14:29that they took and then on top of that a lot of these men will build up a
14:37narrative that becomes sort of a mythological adventure for themselves
14:42yes we're going through the lawsuit yes these things are happening yes this
14:46person has fallen but it's the devil attacking us and that's why he fell we
14:50need to pick him back up and so what you have are you have men and men who are
14:57doing some very bad things but when they fall it's like a bungee cord and they
15:01just come right back up yeah and unfortunately you know it's it's sad but
15:07Rick Joyner has now on Twitter you know a lot of us on Twitter every day you
15:13know fighting for victims and survivors and stuff many of us are survivors myself
15:18included and you know there's this moniker going around about restoration
15:22Rick you know because he's infamous for stepping in and restoring leaders like
15:29Todd Bentley even you know Paul Cain back in the day when that eventually
15:35became you know it kind of came to a head in 2004 but here we have you talk
15:43about the bungee cord we have a similar situation now with Chris Reed where and
15:48it's hard to say is Rick gonna try to restore Chris Reed but I mean you sort
15:52of you see those underpinnings I think they're now at odds with each other Rick
15:57and Chris it sounds like I don't know either of them personally so I can't
16:02really comment on what they what they do or don't do you know behind the scenes
16:05but the bungee cord effect where it's like somebody in a position of clergy
16:13and then a pastor or quote-unquote prophet or apostle allegations come
16:19forth they are credible they're secretly restored behind the scenes and then
16:27they're back in the pulpit and what is really infuriating is to find out now
16:33after the fact that for Chris Reed's case apparently the the quote-unquote
16:39restoration process for him was two months and they didn't even at my
16:44understanding I wasn't at Morningstar at the time but they didn't even announce
16:47it to the church body and if you were a part if you're sending your kids if you
16:53were attending church you're paying your tithe to a church you're going to
16:58their conferences you're buying their books you're buying their music gobs of
17:01money going into this church and you mean to tell me that you as a leadership
17:05are not going to have as much courtesy to come up and say hey by the way the
17:11up-and-coming president has been credibly accused of clergy sexual abuse
17:19like that that boggles my mind and I mean there's somebody who's been out of
17:25church for 13 years that just does not I don't even I don't even know what to do
17:30with that so it remains to be seen what will happen with Chris if he'll come
17:34back or he won't I mean it sounds like he's starting another church in another
17:38part of South Carolina but it's just it's just rinse and repeat like these
17:43people just cannot stop creating new organizations rinse and repeat funnel
17:51the money all the way to the top I sound cynical because I am I don't put too
18:01much of a damper on it but it's just I'm so cynical John over the whole thing
18:05you know I get accused of being cynical and I I look at some of these things and
18:10I like this is a serious subject and I I'm not making light of it but whenever
18:16you take a step back and you just examine the entire thing and its entire
18:20history some of it gets a little bit funny because you see some very odd
18:27characters who are making themselves the next thing to God and you find people
18:32that will follow anything and that's just you know it's a comedy of errors
18:37really is what it is but I get accused of being cynical and it's for me it's
18:42just I have seen the history and the fact that people are not examining the
18:47history the history is is repeating itself again and again and again why do
18:52people not just take you know take notice of what's happening and I think
18:57there's a level of mind control that goes in with this when people are
19:01manipulated to shut off critical thinking and they are manipulated into
19:07thinking it's okay for the leaders to withhold any critical information they
19:13can be guided to you know leaders can guide them to do whatever it is that
19:16they want them to do oh yeah 100% absolutely and I'll just go back to my
19:21experience for a minute if I can you know Morningstar and I shared this on
19:26Twitter the other day and it was just a short post but just you know as a teen I
19:33went to Morningstar because it's right around the corner at that time the
19:36campus was in Charlotte North Carolina just across the state line and now
19:41they're in Fortville South Carolina we're real close to the state line so
19:44it's might as well dissolve the state line and just make it one state but
19:48anyway as a teen I was what 16 17 maybe 17 or 18 I started going to Morningstar
19:56on their Friday night services school of spirit and by the way I encountered the
20:03Lord in an encounter by myself in my room one night when I was 16 that's how
20:09I met him nobody was praying over a microphone nobody was praying over me or
20:14any of that it was like this encounter I have the Lord and I didn't grow up in a
20:19environment where that was even a thing like I didn't know about encounters with
20:23the Lord so it was a totally sovereign experience changed my life forever
20:28nobody can ever take that for me because nobody gave it to me but God like a man
20:33can't take that for me but I say that to say this growing up in the Bible Belt I
20:39was not exposed to the charismatic world at all in fact I grew up in a very
20:45conservative Christian environment like Lutheran and we went to Presbyterian for
20:51some years so had no grid for anything supernatural like speaking in tongues
20:56miracles healing anything like that encounters dreams visions so here I am
21:01at 16 encounter the Lord and through a series of circumstances and a good
21:07friend of mine we started going to Morningstar Friday nights and sometimes
21:12on Sundays and I have to say I encountered God in a big way there at
21:18Morningstar and began and to their credit you know received a lot of
21:25understanding whether it's good bad or indifferent about the prophetic about
21:29healing about signs and wonders it gave me a grid and a framework to understand
21:36the experiences I was having at a personal level and so to have that
21:43formative experience in in the context of a church like Morningstar when you're
21:47a teenager you know your brain is still forming you have not reached full
21:52cognitive development at that age and then you fast forward like that was the
21:59late 90s now you fast forward to where we are now in 2024 and you watch this
22:05unfold and and it's some of the similar questions that I've asked myself
22:10regarding IHOP like and we've talked we talked about this on the last episode
22:16what do you keep what do you throw out what part of your experience was valid
22:23what part of it was maybe not valid or what what part of it was like sort of
22:27off in the deep end and so those are all like real questions that you have to
22:34answer and navigate through so that's just another layer on top of the actual
22:39abuse itself is like what do you peel back and I'm of the opinion like put it
22:44all on the table like whether it be your theology your experiences put it
22:51on the table and let it be on the chopping chopping block I'm like I've
22:57been in this journey for 13 years and I thought that I was fairly far along the
23:04process until you know these scandals started hitting and realized oh my gosh
23:08it's like back to square one you are wrestling with the people that you
23:14trusted to guide you spiritually have now been involved in really dark stuff
23:22not just for six months or a year but but for decades and that is incredibly
23:28devastating it is devastating one of the other problem that I see and this is not
23:35a problem just with the NAR or its predecessors it actually even predates
23:40Branham ism and latter rain a good bit if you go back in time and you look at
23:45how these movements progressed into cults there were there numerous cults
23:50that formed because of this movement they would the main trunk would just
23:54branch off like this sprinkling of cults across the globe and in each situation
24:01the ministers sometimes men sometimes women would lead the person who to
24:08believe that when they receive their salvation in the movement salvation by
24:13God they received it because of the movement or because of the leader and
24:20the problem with this is many of these movements are corrupt and many of these
24:25movements are false movements even though the person is actually in my
24:30opinion the person is actually connecting with God now there is some
24:35valid question is it the same God you know I'm not even gonna try to answer
24:39that but in these situations I had my salvation experience in a cult of
24:45William Branham and I was seeking God I wasn't seeking William Branham I wasn't
24:50seeking these other things whenever I left the there were many numerous
24:55members of the cult who contacted me and asked if I'd lost my salvation in a
25:01in an attacking way it it wasn't like they were trying to get me to come back
25:06they were trying to cut me off and they said well how could you have salvation
25:11and leave the cult in other words they had made the salvation and the cult one
25:16in the same it has to be I got there so yeah exactly so you hear this kind of
25:23happening in Morningstar or even an IHOP the question even the members who escaped
25:28they sometimes question their own salvation what was I really saved I was
25:31in this movement by this false prophet right so it's a problem that exists also
25:36for former members because they too have been manipulated to see the movement and
25:42the salvation in one entity but you have to really separate that and peel it back
25:47I'll tell you what I'm really wrestling with right now just case in point here
25:52with Morningstar and I haven't really listened to Rick Joyner's teaching in
25:56years like it's been a long time and so I don't really keep up with his latest
26:01and greatest prophecies and this that and the other but to tune in to some of
26:07the you know he's done a few videos from the pulpit here recently both and at the
26:12heritage property main campus in Fort Mill and then also at the Moravian Falls
26:17because he's up there too which is towards the mountains of North Carolina
26:21I like I listen to some of the stuff he says John and I'll be honest be fully
26:29honest with everybody listening here like it's hard for me to listen to him
26:34and like I find myself listening to him because I listen to him as a teenager
26:38and like he was very I really gave a lot of weight to him and trusted him and I
26:44don't know how to I don't even know how to verbalize this but but like I
26:48struggle listening to him and wanting to like pull out any nuggets I can out of
26:56what he's saying not about the abuse because that's garbage but I'm saying
27:00like anything he throws in that's about God or you know prophetic or something
27:07I'm legitimately still struggling with that and like that's just being open
27:13about it like I struggle knowing well what is is he even of God at all or is
27:20he just completely not of God is he like does he wake up in the morning knowing
27:27that he's going out to you know take advantage of people and manipulate them
27:32or does he believe that he legitimately has a heart for God and trying to teach
27:36people like I still am struggling that like this is full disclosure and this is
27:42not my first go-around at deconstruction I've been doing it for
27:4413 years so it just goes to show you that it shows you how deep this goes in
27:52the human psyche like in your in your mind and like my mind's telling me hey I
27:58know what's the truth here peel all that back and you know set aside the gobbledy
28:06gook that these guys use to try to spiritualize everything I can I can
28:11reasonably and critically think about it but like I'm just saying that at a
28:16profound deep level I still have that wrestling going on inside I don't know
28:21if that makes sense but that's just kind of some of my process. Have you ever
28:25wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of modern
28:29Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter reign charismatic and other fringe
28:35movements into the New Apostolic Reformation? You can learn this and more
28:39on William Branham Historical Research's website William-Branham.org. On the
28:45books page of the website you can find the compiled research of John Collins,
28:50Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon, and others with links to the
28:55paper, audio, and digital versions of each book. You can also find resources and
29:01documentation on various people and topics related to those movements. If you
29:06want to contribute to the cause you can support the podcast by clicking the
29:10contribute button at the top and as always be sure to like and subscribe to
29:15the audio or video version that you're listening to or watching. On behalf of
29:19William Branham Historical Research we want to thank you for your support. You
29:24know whenever I first began the website I faced an interesting problem from
29:30people who were in the cult of William Branham. I would find these quote-unquote
29:37nuggets but I was looking for the things that were just complete
29:40nonsense things that were absurd and I would play it and within the nonsense
29:47might be something that was healthy or good. You have the good and the bad and
29:52so you have to as a Christian you're supposed to rightly discern what is good
29:56and what is good not but the problem was because people had been trained to
30:02listen to him without critically thinking critically examining it's like
30:07they were lulled to sleep whenever I played the voice in the clip and had the
30:11example that I wanted to show and often the people would completely miss the
30:16point I was trying to trying to point out and I was actually getting former
30:21and current members praising the things that he said that were good and totally
30:27not seeing at all the horrendous thing and so some of my videos and most of
30:34them are taken down now the cult attacked my website but for a long time
30:37when I would play a clip of the voice I would have this obnoxious and overly
30:43loud music that was playing in the background so that the mind was
30:47distracted from being lulled to sleep by the voice by hearing the obnoxious music
30:52and it although it was ridiculous I go back out I don't know how people listen
30:58to these things it was effective and it really really helped people to just kind
31:04of shake and wake up and I think the problem is whenever you're around these
31:08quote-unquote prophetic figures these so-called prophets and apostles etc they
31:16have trained the members to believe they're on this higher spiritual plane
31:21and so you're looking for you I think you use the same word that we did in the
31:26Branham quote you're looking for these nuggets you're looking for these special
31:30things as though God is somehow giving you special insight into the Bible
31:36because of their voice that kind of thing yes you have the Bible you can
31:40just open the Bible and read it understand yeah we don't need the latest
31:45and greatest your word of the week or whatever it is like I can open the Bible
31:51have a Bible in my office in here but yeah just open up the Bible and take a
31:56verse and you know decide to meditate on it for a couple minutes or whatever and
32:03that's the simplicity I think that so many people are craving right now like
32:08when you've been in circles like Morningstar, IOPKC, Bethel, the William
32:16Branham movements and stuff like that there's that there's this it's like this
32:19secret knowledge even though they don't call it that you know this you're
32:23considered the special because you you have some kind of revelation and I'll be
32:28honest with you like now when and it's not very often that I even see this
32:36stuff anymore because I don't watch sermons and messages anymore at all
32:40hardly but if it ever comes across my social media like a quote from one of
32:45these leaders I read it John and I'm like honestly like I'll read it just for
32:51face value and I have absolutely no idea what it means like I don't know what it
32:58means like what are you even talking about like I compare that to a sentence
33:05like Jesus wept it doesn't get any simpler than that like Jesus was
33:11weeping I mean you know compare the two and there's just it's just two different
33:16galaxies yeah I did a study on that for a while there was a period of time in
33:22which I thought Branham and some of the men and in the you know the immediate
33:27circle of latter rain leaders that were just complete imbeciles and I after
33:34researching and digging I realized that these men weren't these men were smart
33:37and they had a strategy but they were they were very brilliant in their way of
33:44speaking there was a guy I don't know if you've seen the old candid camera shows
33:49but there's this guy that did what they called double talk and he would come in
33:54and he would go into a restaurant and the restaurant owner would walk up and
33:58he would start talking and they were real words but none of them really went
34:02together in the sentence and he would look at him he had all of the effects
34:07of that a con artist what he would look at him in a serious way saying something
34:11that meant absolutely nothing and the guy was so confused and it was funny
34:17stuff if you ever get a chance to see it I one of the techniques of mind control
34:23is you confuse the person and then inject the thing in their head that you
34:28to want them to believe or establish in their in their psyche and if you look at
34:35the speech patterns of these guys a lot of times the core doctrine whenever
34:40they're talking about it they're saying complete nonsense yeah and when I take a
34:44step back I need to do a deep dive on Bob Jones I still haven't done it yet
34:49yes you look at some of the nonsensical things that it's coming out of the mouth
34:55of these guys and ask yourself was it a strategy were they doing this
35:00purposefully to wreak havoc in the people's heads or were they literally
35:04insane and if so how did they get to such a status in this movement when they
35:10were insane yeah I know and I wonder that too about some of the people in
35:15positions of political power too it's like is that the best we've got right
35:22now but but yeah to your point like I mean and I'm a southerner like y'all can
35:28probably tell but like you listen to Bob Jones and I mean Bob Jones was like he
35:35was like one of those quote-unquote I don't want to call him a god but I mean
35:39he's basically elevated to that level and yeah you listen to some of his
35:43recordings and it it's it's not just gobbledygook it's like gobbledygook
35:48redneck gobbledygook you know you don't even know what to do with it like anyway
35:57I won't even try to do an impression right now but maybe maybe if you do a
36:01Bob Jones series we can do it we can do an impersonation I'm redneck enough that
36:08I have to fight to keep it off of my cod podcast because you know I just take a
36:16step back and I look at the way these guys are talking and the things that
36:20they're saying and it's it is utter confusion and I've watched you've
36:25probably seen the videos Daniel Long and some of these other guys that they're
36:29doing where they're they've got these little clips that they play of NAR guys
36:34saying the stupidest stuff you know I look at some of that stuff and I you
36:41know it's number one it's hard to believe that you're doing it in a church
36:44but number two the people are accepting it as though you know I look at it and
36:51it's like a comedy routine but they're accepting it as spiritual and so there
36:56is a again it's a comedy of errors that these guys have created but the people
37:01almost expect the absurd and one of the other problems that former members have
37:07in fact I've had this conversation multiple times now when a person leaves
37:12this type of religion and they go into a normal healthy church where the people
37:17the minister is speaking actual intelligent sentences they leave
37:22thinking it's so they use the word dry or they use the word non-spiritual or
37:28when they hear somebody who can actually structure sentences together in a
37:33complete thought they think that it is not spiritual yeah oh yeah no it's a
37:39thing for sure and I can say as somebody who grew up in a very
37:43conservative Christian Church environment and then you you contrast
37:48that to like the the literal hyper charismatic movement where you got
37:52people whirling around you know with swords and flags and loose cannons and
37:59God knows what else it's like they might as well put the slot machine up there on
38:05the stage too while they're at it because like we talked about before like
38:09at the end of the day you know let's do the offering declaration pull the slot
38:13like let me get my I'm gonna get my healing I will get my million dollars in
38:19my bank account I'm gonna get my perfect spouse and you know and so you have this
38:24your condition to believe that when I go to church I'm going to get all these
38:30goods right I'm gonna come on in I'm gonna get these goods it's got to be
38:33this wild fanfare so it makes sense that people go to a presbyterian or
38:38Methodist or wherever it is and they're like oh it's so boring like I I don't
38:43want to you know stand up and read off a page but I'll tell you for me like our
38:48son goes to a Christian school and when they do their graduations each year it's
38:55really refreshing to get somebody who stands up at the end of the or the
39:00beginning of the like graduation program or whatever they say like a 10
39:04second prayer and they're not asking everybody to come down here and sweat
39:08blood and roll around in the dirt and slobber flying everywhere they just get
39:16up there and they pray for five or ten seconds they pray for the students they
39:20pray for the families and that's it and it's like oh my gosh yeah what what a
39:26refreshing feeling so it's really a full circle like to go from you know go from
39:32that conservative to hyper crazy town to back to even though we're not in church
39:38anymore but like it's just refreshing to experience that that other side of it
39:43again a little bit yeah you know and you after you've been disconnected for a
39:47while you forget some of the really absurd things I recently went to dinner
39:53that had some cult members in it and the cult member was asked to pray for the
39:57meal and good lord man I forgot how long those prayers could be normal Christians
40:04they're like bless the food and and the prayer is about the food well they're
40:09praying for everything from the kitchen staff to all kinds of weird stuff man
40:15they're preaching a sermon in their prayer right you know you're talking
40:23about the people rolling around or whatever there's a I don't know if I
40:27could find it for the video or not but there's a clip where they've taken the
40:31Pentecostal dancing in the spirit or whatever and they've put the music to
40:34ducktales behind it and the people are dancing and I saw that as I was writing
40:40my new book and I got to the point there's a point where I'm talking about
40:45John Wimber and talking about the birth of the revival and I think it's Wimber I
40:50think it's Wimber that I quoted but he said that he was in the revival and he
40:54got on the ground and there's a guy next to him oinking and so my next book I
40:59need to do on the holy oinking because I don't think anybody has really explored
41:03that one yeah I hadn't heard of the oinking but I've heard of barking yeah
41:12yeah you probably heard that the I guess the Toronto blessing up in Toronto you
41:18know people were notorious for barking up there so you know there's there's no
41:23so the moral of the story is if you want to be an animal right if you want to
41:29bark like a dog or oink like a pig come on we'll take all of it yeah you know it
41:36just goes back to this is a different religion it's not Christianity and yeah
41:41I still struggle like you mentioned earlier in the podcast I struggle too
41:46with trying to decipher whatever it was real whatever it was false what you know
41:53there's this notion that God is speaking to you and and they build it up right
41:57anything that happens in your life it's God speaking to you and there are people
42:02that if you ask them a question they they won't give you an answer until they
42:06say well I must go first and let God speak to me and you know that's not
42:11something you hear in a normal Christian Church it's a little bit odd but they
42:15put it on to this pedestal where you know what is God what is this God that
42:20speaking does he oink like a pig does he bark like a dog and you have to really
42:25separate well what of this is just animal instincts in the human that we're
42:31connecting with and what of it is actual spirituality yeah I don't know that's a
42:35good question I've never really thought too too much about that part of it but
42:39to your point on you know you can't make a decision unless God unless you feel
42:45like God speaks to you I was I was trapped in that loop for a long time
42:49until you know I'd like to think I evolved from that but it really is it's
42:56like robotic living it's like you and you see the heart behind it right like
43:01you see people you know people want to legitimately follow God and know what
43:05he's you know what his heart is for your life and stuff like that and so I'm not
43:10criticizing that but but there is a there's a component where you almost and
43:15I think it's back to the critical thinking right where you check your
43:19humanity at the door you check your decision-making at the door you check
43:22your critical thinking at the door you check your emotions at the door and you
43:26basically come in and like open my head up and fill me with whatever you want
43:30to fill me with culture and I will be the robot that you form me to be and I
43:38write every check that you asked me to write you you'll get all of my money
43:42you'll get all my allegiance you'll get all of my support and meanwhile all of
43:47that collective social capital is going right to the top of the pyramid and
43:53these guys are rolling in cash and I don't know how they sleep at night
43:59honestly I mean they must have burned their conscience so bad that they don't
44:02they don't they don't feel anything anymore I don't know who knows only God
44:06knows but but yeah you just end up continuing to exploit all these people
44:13until they're basically a phantom of a human walking around that doesn't they
44:20they're not even able to connect with their decision-making anymore it's just
44:24and I think that's where that's how cults happen really at the end of the
44:29day it is horrifying and to make it to take it even level furthers there there
44:36is this structure in a cult where the central figure everybody beneath them
44:42has shut off their critical thinking and the central figure is projecting on
44:46the people and so the people start to act think become more and more like the
44:52central figure that's the person that is their mediator between God and man and
44:56so they're they take on the identity the false identity of the central figure and
45:02suppress their authentic selves well whenever these central figures are doing
45:07the things that we see you know you look at all the lawsuits and not going
45:12to go into the details but the fear is what happens with this whenever they
45:17take on the identities of these leaders are and they're taking the good and the
45:22bad in many cases where you can examine and you can see both the good and the
45:25bad well what about the really really bad are they taking this on too and for
45:31me it's I'm fascinated with psychology so this this kind of thing interests me
45:36to no end but yeah the human mind whenever they take that on many of the
45:42people who do these things were in groups where other people that they
45:48looked up to had also done these things and so then you begin to wonder is it a
45:53is it a cycle that repeats because they're in a cult and because they are
45:57taking on the identity of the central figure yes that is such a huge area to
46:03explore and you'll see it show up in the leadership you'll see many versions
46:10of the leader like they even talk the same or similar they will act the same
46:15they'll preach the same though you know there's there's like these
46:19characteristics that it's like you learn that almost through osmosis and there's
46:26this there's a system of rewarding people I think the more you're like the
46:32leader the more the more you get promoted further up further up to
46:36eventually maybe you'll be the second person in charge or a third person in
46:40charge and so but yeah it's back to like mimic you know a mimicry of the person
46:50at the top or the group of people at the top I've definitely seen that my own
46:54journey through these organizations so you were in mooring star you got out and
47:00you're deconstructing and still deconstructing and in many ways you're
47:04you're matching myself because I think it's a never-ending journey of
47:09deconstruction I don't know that there's really a place where that ends but for
47:14the people who are in Morningstar if you could give them some advice because
47:18they're people still trapped in this what advice you give them wonder if
47:25maybe this is a tip what would happen if you paused all of the propaganda like
47:35are you willing to go there are you willing to let yourself tune out not
47:40listen to any sermons for a while not listen to any music and just let
47:43yourself think for a second let you to be able to hear yourself to hear your
47:47thoughts and pay attention to what do you actually think what do you actually
47:52feel about this like is this is there something off is there something you're
47:57not comfortable with and I think at the end of the day being able to be honest
48:01with yourself about what your experience is and that is honestly I think that the
48:08starting point of really coming to terms with what you've been through as a
48:14person whether it's spiritually relationally financially whatever area
48:19it is so I don't know if that's even a good tip or not but that's what came to
48:26mind yeah it's a good tip and it it made me think back to kovat 19 was
48:33devastating on the globe I mean there are many people who died I have several
48:38friends close family who died but it was also devastating to the cults which is
48:43interesting and not because of the deaths although that had a little bit of
48:48an impact but once they issued the order that you couldn't gather together the
48:54group think doesn't work if you're not in a group so when the people are
48:57separated they're not there I don't know if you're Star Trek fan the Star Trek
49:03Borg I'm not but there you are yeah when so there's this there's this villain in
49:09the Star Trek which was actually created for to resemble a cult but when they
49:13disconnect from the hive they keep trying to reconnect trying to reconnect
49:17well this happened during kovat 19 these people were told that they couldn't
49:22gather together and they're you know they're trying to trying to reconnect
49:26some of them would meet in their homes in small groups because they couldn't
49:31assemble in the church well it's not the same group so the group think dynamic
49:35was different and it ended it resulted in a large mass exodus from not just the
49:43the brand of coal but from many cults globally and there were a lot of people
49:47that were de-churching too so the de-churching the de-church of vacation
49:52that was happening you saw these leaders rising up and they were denouncing all
49:57of the people who were bringing the quote-unquote critical thinking but in
50:02effect people had just separated and they realized that I don't need this in
50:06my life I don't need this cult in my life I can I can be my own person I
50:10don't have to have a call and so yeah so your advice is technically it's on
50:18par with that because if they were to just take a step back and just
50:23disconnect for a little bit then if they have no desire to go back there's that
50:28fear well oh my gosh well am I lost am I apostate but if you can get past that
50:35fear and just you know try to realize that you really don't if you have to
50:42connect with them to connect with God you have established a mediator between
50:46God and man and it's not a good one we see what's happening and it is not a
50:50good one right that's such an interesting case study that you mentioned
50:55about kovat 19 but it makes sense like you know you're not nearly as not only
51:02connected but you're not getting as much propaganda I mean it's like a
51:06propaganda machine so everybody knows that the most effective way to be
51:12propagandized is in person with loudspeakers influential smooth-talking
51:17snake-hole salesmen ie charismatic preachers and really loud and awesome
51:29music I mean all three of these places I've been in have awesome music to this
51:35day it's amazing it's like and I still listen to some of it sometimes yeah
51:39folders full disclosure but yeah to your point like you disconnect you take a
51:45pause and all of a sudden now you're surrounded by three people in your
51:49living room trying to do church through a live feed you know live stream or
51:54whatever it is it's totally different than being in an auditorium or arena
52:00with thousand five thousand ten thousand people it's just a totally different
52:05experience so anyway I think that's a really good case study and I'm glad to
52:10hear that people extricated now during coded yeah and it's another discussion
52:15for another day but if you read the early Christian history and even read
52:21what's in the Bible it talks about assembling in in houses like they did
52:25so then the question bags well and I'm not gonna ask that question I just leave
52:30it alone but anyway thank you for doing this I've you know all this was
52:35happening and I I did not want to really address the allegations or anything like
52:40that because I'm not a person who likes to sling mud but I did right to get
52:45somebody who had had been in there so we could talk about the structure of the
52:50place and apply that to the history that I have so thank you for doing this
52:53oh my gosh absolutely this is probably the highlight of my week John to talk
52:58today so I'm serious like it's it's so fun I love your podcast I'm like
53:04probably your biggest subscriber I'm every I'll just say this before done
53:09every lunch I walk around my downtown town here outside my office and I listen
53:16to your podcast usually so thumbs up man appreciate what you're doing super
53:23big fan over here and I was honored to be on your show again and we thought Bob
53:28Jones was crazy if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information you
53:36can check us out on the web you can find us at William dash Branham org for more
53:41information about the dark side of the NAR you can read weaponized religion
53:45from Christian identity to the NAR available on Amazon Kindle and soon
53:50audible
54:45you