During a Senate Foreign Relations Committee hearing held before the congressional recess, Sen. Jeanne Shaheen (D-NH) questioned State Department Nominee Sarah Rogers about soft power and American innovation.
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00:00I'll recognize Senator Shaheen. Excuse me. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
00:07Ms. Rogers, I want to go back to your conversation about soft power.
00:15And you quoted NPR CEO Catherine Mehar. I'm a big fan of NPR. I think it does wonderful work.
00:25I think you neglected to provide the context for that quote. It was actually at the Atlantic Council's 360 Open Summit, which was a conference about tackling foreign disinformation, where Mehar, who was not at that time the CEO of NPR, she was the CEO of Wikimedia, she discussed efforts to push back against disinformation.
00:48And her direct quote in response to the question of how to address foreign disinformation was, and I'm quoting, the number one challenge that we see is, of course, the First Amendment in the United States.
01:00It is a robust protection of rights, and that is a protection of rights both for platforms, which I actually think is very important that platforms have those rights to be able to regulate what kind of content they want on their sites.
01:13She then said, this makes it a little tricky to address some of the real challenges of where bad information comes from.
01:20So I just think it's important to correct the record on that issue.
01:25But I also want to ask you about the role of the State Department and the role that you would assume if confirmed to address interagency coordination on disinformation.
01:39And I share your belief that it's a critical tool of our soft power.
01:47And I also agree with you about American access and innovation.
01:51I think when people have a chance to see to partner with the United States versus partnering with China, they're going to choose America every time.
02:01But if we don't have an apparatus which we can use to show what America's access and innovation is all about, then it's going to be really hard to get that message across to foreign governments.
02:17And that's sadly where we are, as Senator Cain pointed out, the dismantling of the U.S. Agency for Global Media of the Global Engagement Center at the State Department put us at a disadvantage when it comes to foreign governments.
02:37We had a hearing in this committee at the beginning of the year where the experts testified that China is spending over $1 billion, billion with a B, a year on disinformation and misinformation campaigns across the world.
02:54And we no longer have an apparatus to address that.
02:58You also, your role is, historically, the Undersecretary for Public Diplomacy and Public Affairs has represented the Secretary of State on the International Broadcasting Advisory Board, which I know you're familiar with.
03:18That's been a body that's been committed to protecting the editorial independence of U.S. Agency for Global Media networks and entities.
03:26So if we don't have that apparatus, how do you address that soft power need that I think we have in the United States to let the rest of the world know why it's important to partner with us?
03:42Thank you, Senator, for that question and for supplementing the record regarding the purported challenge posed by the First Amendment to countering disinformation.
03:50I just want to make clear, the First Amendment shouldn't be a challenge to countering disinformation.
03:56And I draw here on the erudition of Justice Brandeis.
04:00Who told us that?
04:01I didn't understand her to say that it was a challenge to countering disinformation.
04:05I think that the term was the biggest challenge.
04:07It's a robust protection of rights that makes it that as we're thinking about addressing disinformation, we have to do it within the context of the First Amendment.
04:18Absolutely, Senator, and if confirmed, that will be my approach.
04:22I was quoting Brandeis here, who's had the best response, and this is a bit of a paraphrase because I don't have it in front of me, to fraudulent and fallacious information is more speech, not enforced silence.
04:33So that will be the approach of public diplomacy if I'm confirmed to this role.
04:37And I also thank the Senator for the opportunity to address what the Global Engagement Center did.
04:42The Global Engagement Center did foster interagency coordination.
04:45That was good, and if I'm confirmed, I'll do that.
04:49But that's my question, really, and I'm sorry to interrupt, but how will you do it if it's been dismantled?
04:55How will you do it if we no longer have Radio Free Asia, Radio Marti, the infrastructure to get out information to combat our adversaries?
05:08So just to distinguish briefly, I think if I were confirmed, my function, public diplomacy, never had AGM under it, although the Senator is absolutely correct.
05:18I could serve on the board of AGM, which would be a separate agency.
05:21But we still have thousands of social media channels that the public diplomacy function manages.
05:28We have assets in every regional bureau of the State Department, partnerships with influencers and creators.
05:33There are many, many outlets with which we can engage, and I think the media landscape has changed seismically, as the 2024 election cycle showed us.
05:42Two hours on a podcast might reach more people than a week of appearances on legacy marquee media cable shows.
05:49So I just think we need to be agile and creative.
05:51And I think to the extent that we're spending money on this media outreach, we just need to make sure, and I think the department is developing great metrics and tools to do this, make sure that every dollar we spend has an impact on the target audience.
06:06And we have metrics we can use to measure these things to stay accountable to the American taxpayer and accountable to the imperative that each dollar we spend makes America safer, stronger, and more prosperous.
06:16And the fact that the Global Engagement Center engaged with other agencies, that was great, and I'll engage with other agencies.
06:25I don't need the GEC to do that.
06:27The fact that the Global Engagement Center purported to address foreign propaganda and lies, that was meritorious, and I don't need the Global Engagement Center to do that.
06:36Well, you need an apparatus to do that, though.
06:38And, in fact, your role did have the Global Engagement Center and all of public diplomacy under it.
06:44So I appreciate your intent, and I agree with that.
06:49I think it shows a tremendous amount of naivete to think that we can do that without having an apparatus to actually get the information out there.
07:00Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
07:06I'd like to return to Mexico.
07:08Mr. DiNano, the current U.S.-Mexico security cooperation is guided by the Bicentennial Framework.