🌏 In this explosive episode of Dialogue Works, renowned geopolitical analyst Pepe Escobar dissects the aftermath of Trump’s aggressive trade policy with China.
Key points discussed:
🔹 How Trump’s trade war massively backfired
🔹 The economic and strategic consequences for the U.S.
🔹 China’s resilience and counter-strategy 🇨🇳
🔹 What this means for the future of U.S.-China relations
🔹 Is this a silent surrender — or a pivot to something bigger?
🧠 A must-watch for anyone following global trade, power shifts, and the decline of Western economic dominance.
📢 Like, Comment & Subscribe for more sharp insights from global thinkers like Pepe Escobar.
#PepeEscobar #DialogueWorks #TrumpTradeWar #ChinaUS #Geopolitics #USChinaRelations #EconomicBackfire #TradeWar #Trump2024 #ChinaWins #GlobalEconomy #USPolitics #SurrenderToChina #GlobalTrade #XiJinping #AmericaFirst #WesternDecline #PoliticalAnalysis #WorldNews #InternationalRelations
Key points discussed:
🔹 How Trump’s trade war massively backfired
🔹 The economic and strategic consequences for the U.S.
🔹 China’s resilience and counter-strategy 🇨🇳
🔹 What this means for the future of U.S.-China relations
🔹 Is this a silent surrender — or a pivot to something bigger?
🧠 A must-watch for anyone following global trade, power shifts, and the decline of Western economic dominance.
📢 Like, Comment & Subscribe for more sharp insights from global thinkers like Pepe Escobar.
#PepeEscobar #DialogueWorks #TrumpTradeWar #ChinaUS #Geopolitics #USChinaRelations #EconomicBackfire #TradeWar #Trump2024 #ChinaWins #GlobalEconomy #USPolitics #SurrenderToChina #GlobalTrade #XiJinping #AmericaFirst #WesternDecline #PoliticalAnalysis #WorldNews #InternationalRelations
Category
🗞
NewsTranscript
00:00:00Hi everybody! Today is Tuesday, April 22nd, 2025, and our friend Pepe Scobar is back with us. Welcome, Mike Pepe!
00:00:14Hey! Welcome to Hong Kong, everybody! And also, Nima!
00:00:20So, I'm back. I was telling Nima before the start, this is my home, one of my homes.
00:00:26I lived here on and off for many years. So, coming back here is always coming back home.
00:00:31And, of course, drinking first-class tea. And what a time to be in Hong Kong now.
00:00:37Wow! And coming from Shanghai on top of it. So, you know, it's being in the middle of the hurricane, of everything.
00:00:45I barely sleep. You don't have time to sleep. It's too much happening.
00:00:52Okay, Nima, go!
00:00:54Yeah. As you've mentioned, there is a lot to talk about.
00:00:59And the first and the most important thing would be this tariff war and the economic war between the United States and China.
00:01:06As you're there in China, how do they feel about the United States right now?
00:01:12And the way we know that the Chinese experts are just talking directly to the United States.
00:01:17They're saying, whatever you're going to do, we're going to go to the end to fight you.
00:01:22Absolutely. How does it feel to be in China?
00:01:24Oh! I tried, Nima, in my first column that came out yesterday in the middle of the night in Russia, in fact.
00:01:35So, I don't even know the timeline anymore, but in the past few hours.
00:01:41My first column is trying exactly to answer your question.
00:01:45And the mood in China is defiant, resistance.
00:01:51We're not going to take any bullying anymore.
00:01:54The century of humiliation is a long, long time ago.
00:01:57It will never come back, and especially not from the British Empire this time, from these bloody barbarians.
00:02:04They are openly calling the Americans barbarians.
00:02:08Not only taxi drivers, but high ranking diplomats and some of the best political analysts in China.
00:02:17So, my experience in Shanghai, before coming here, it's great for all of you, our audience.
00:02:23I am in Hong Kong now, but after spending over a week in Shanghai and bombarded with information from the best possible sources.
00:02:34Academic, at Fudan University especially.
00:02:39In terms of media, Guancha, which is the best news analysis website in China.
00:02:48I visited them, met the new editor.
00:02:51We had a session together.
00:02:52They interviewed me.
00:02:53We had a lunch together.
00:02:55We followed up one of their top podcasts together, which was an absolute bomb.
00:02:59I linked to it in my column.
00:03:02And business people.
00:03:03Shanghai, as many of you will know, is not only the cultural capital of China, but the business and trade capital of China.
00:03:12Trade, but not the only one, as you all know.
00:03:16Guess what's happening at my neighbors up north here.
00:03:20By, I would say, 35 to 40 minute high speed train ride from where I am now.
00:03:29The Canton Fair in Guangzhou, in Guangdong province, which borders, of course, Hong Kong.
00:03:3760,000 merchants, producers, manufacturers, gathered in an absolutely gigantic space age hall.
00:03:49And guess who's there, Nima?
00:03:51Buyers from over 200 countries.
00:03:54This is what we call the art of the deal.
00:03:57The real art of the deal is a place like this, the Canton Fair, where people from all over the world go to buy all the manufactured products made in China.
00:04:07All the tech now made in China.
00:04:09They are selling a lot of tech.
00:04:11They're selling robos all over the place.
00:04:13It's amazing.
00:04:14Half of the sense they are selling robos, for instance.
00:04:17Artificial intelligence all over the place.
00:04:20And that's it.
00:04:21So, no wonder many Chinese, and when I say many, I mean hundreds of millions, they are saying, guess who's running the show now?
00:04:34We are running the show.
00:04:36And they are.
00:04:37They are running the trade show all over the world.
00:04:41And now, which is something very important that all these conversations in Shanghai, they more or less, they were always going to the same point and to the same framework and almost a kind of consensus, but not coming from the top.
00:05:01For instance, I didn't talk to any officials in China.
00:05:06I didn't talk to any representatives of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs.
00:05:10Of course, we read them every day.
00:05:13The people at Guancha, which is excellent, and the China Academy, which has a direct connection with Guancha, they frame themselves as independent.
00:05:26They are not private because, of course, the media system in China, they keep an eye on everything, as you all know, Nima, and many of our audience.
00:05:37But they have a leeway and a measure of independence that official media, for instance, the Global Times, they don't have.
00:05:47The former editor of the Global Times now is the editor of Guancha.
00:05:53I met him.
00:05:55Wonderful guy with enormous experience.
00:05:58And now he feels great because even with Global Times, he had some constraints.
00:06:06Now with Guancha, he can publish anything he wants.
00:06:09And the great thing about Guancha is that they publish, let's say, heretic academics and different academic point of views from different from the best universities in China.
00:06:20Very, very critical, not only of the West, but also critical of what may be improved inside China, which is the same Deng Xiaoping mindset of crossing the river while filling the stones and learning from your mistakes.
00:06:38And the Chinese are always perfecting themselves and learning from their mistakes.
00:06:44And one thing in terms of a huge mistake that they will never, never, never reproduce is to take it, lie down the latest round of what is being interpreted all over China as extreme disrespect to Chinese people, to the Chinese civilization state.
00:07:07To the system of international relations, to the system of trade relations, and the basic rules of diplomas.
00:07:16They are very, very angry, Nima.
00:07:20I have never seen it like this in front of me, you know, and manifested at every level.
00:07:27It was fascinating.
00:07:29I was having, for instance, I was exploring one of the, we call it in Chinese, model quarters.
00:07:36These were buildings of the built during the Maoist era, where we had the functionary of the party at the entrance, you know, checking everything in and out, who's living there, etc.
00:07:48They were, let's say, socialist houses or socialist compounds.
00:07:54And they're still there in Shanghai.
00:07:57But, of course, in a private enterprise manner, right?
00:08:03And many people that still left, they remember the 60s, the 70s.
00:08:08They remember the beginning of the reforms by then in the late 70s.
00:08:14And now they talk with much pride, not only about Shanghai, which is, in terms of a big metropolis, the infrastructure is absolutely mind boggling.
00:08:25How efficient, how impeccable everything is.
00:08:30In terms of the metro, in terms of electric buses, in terms of all of them green electric taxis that you will call on Alipay.
00:08:44You'll get a DD on Alipay.
00:08:48Three, four minutes later, you have an impeccable taxi, clean as hell, the driver impeccably dressed, etc.
00:08:55So the infrastructure is amazing.
00:08:57Absolutely.
00:08:58I mean, and everything works all over the scene.
00:09:02So it's one of the most efficient, big metropolises on the planet.
00:09:06Beautiful as well, because it was many tracts of Shanghai were rebuilt.
00:09:12There are wonderful parks everywhere.
00:09:14It's a green city.
00:09:15There are parks all over the place.
00:09:18Like, you know, I was in a very privileged place.
00:09:21I was at the Jin Mao Tower.
00:09:23There are three big towers in Pudong on the other side of the Huangpu River.
00:09:28The Jin Mao is the Art Deco Tower.
00:09:31It was inaugurated in the late 90s.
00:09:34Then there's the big one, which is around and going like this, is the World Financial Center, you know, right in front of us.
00:09:42So from my point of view, I was at the dead center of business in China, not only in Shanghai, but in China.
00:09:50And from over there, if you go, for instance, one of our business dinners was at the Nuigur Xinjiang restaurant in the World Financial Center.
00:10:02And it was a business of a big Chinese company linked to European business as well.
00:10:08So it was fascinating to talk to all these executives and sales representatives.
00:10:13We're talking about trade, but we're talking about obviously the tariffs as well.
00:10:17Once again, the consensus.
00:10:19Now, that's it.
00:10:21It's our turn.
00:10:22We are running this show and we're not going to let a bunch of barbarians dictate terms for us.
00:10:27And we have partners all over the world.
00:10:29And something that when you discuss with them, they really appreciate.
00:10:33They don't know the details.
00:10:34When we tell them, look, you have support in Latin America.
00:10:38You have support in Africa.
00:10:39You know very well that you have support around Southeast Asia, your neighbors in Southeast Asia.
00:10:44So your support is nearly global.
00:10:46And even Europeans are looking at you and saying, oh, shit, we're going to need to send a high level delegation to China.
00:10:53In fact, they will do that in June or July.
00:10:56And let's strike a new trade deal, a new EU-China trade deal.
00:11:01This is going to happen because of the tariffs as well.
00:11:04So the mood as a whole was immensely impressive.
00:11:08And I got this distinct sensation, impression and certainty from their part that we are now the front line of global resistance in terms of trade and in terms of diplomacy against these barbarians.
00:11:30And the world is with us.
00:11:33In terms of the Chinese attitude in international relations, Nima and all of you, this is unparalleled.
00:11:42It's now they look at their trade, financial, economic power.
00:11:49They say, who are we to be lying down when these bloody barbarians try to clobber up?
00:11:55You know, no way, not anymore.
00:11:58So, wow.
00:12:00And, you know, yesterday, for instance, I was looking at the beginning of all this strategy from a Chinese point of view.
00:12:10I used to live in Hollywood Road for a while, which is nearby here.
00:12:14It's about a 20 minute walk from where I am.
00:12:18I am in downtown central Hong Kong.
00:12:21And Hollywood Road was the first road in Hong Kong.
00:12:26It was built by the Brits.
00:12:29And you know why they built this road?
00:12:32Because a few years before, they landed on a stretch of the island that they called Possession.
00:12:43So the path that led to Hollywood Road was called Possession Street.
00:12:49So this is where the British Empire took possession of the island of Hong Kong.
00:12:55Never something like this will happen again, even metaphorically, Nima.
00:13:01It's a very, very important landmark.
00:13:04I took a photo of the Hollywood plaque with the dates, when they landed, when they built the road and all that.
00:13:14And I was connecting immediately with my experience in Shanghai the days before.
00:13:21There will never be another century of humiliation.
00:13:25They learned their historical lesson.
00:13:27And now they know that they can rewire the chains of production, the system of trade relations, everything.
00:13:38And if they had, if this famous decoupling from the American economy has to happen, so much the better for them.
00:13:48They don't care anymore.
00:13:49All of that is unparalleled in the 21st century.
00:13:53I imagine the ghost of Deng Xiaoping when he started those reforms in 1968.
00:14:00If he would know that we will get to this point so fast.
00:14:05We're still in 2025, which is very, very early.
00:14:09Deng Xiaoping's plan for China to become a middle income society, very stable and with a global reach.
00:14:18It's 2049.
00:14:20We are halfway and China is already there.
00:14:22Pappy, when you look at the economy of China, you find it somehow in the middle of the private economy and we have the government controlling everything.
00:14:36Which one is more powerful?
00:14:38Is the government one, the socialist communist one or the private one?
00:14:42It's a mix of all, Nima.
00:14:44Let's say we still have state owned enterprises that are immensely powerful, especially in strategic sectors of the Chinese economy.
00:14:57We have public private partnerships and you have enormous private companies like Ant and like Jack Ma's Empire, which are as powerful as a conglomerate of state owned enterprises.
00:15:15This is the, let's say, the crux of socialism with Chinese characteristics.
00:15:22You can say that to a certain extent, sometimes it looks like neoliberalism with Chinese characteristics.
00:15:31So it's a mix of both, actually.
00:15:34Obviously, all the major strategic sectors of the Chinese economy, they will always be run by state owned enterprises.
00:15:43There's no question about that.
00:15:45But there are niches here and there where there is competition from everywhere.
00:15:52No problem.
00:15:54And here in Hong Kong, it's even more interesting.
00:15:58It's very hard to give a concise definition of Hong Kong in relation to China.
00:16:06Hong Kong used to be the middle man until the handover in 1997 and even in the first few years after the handover.
00:16:14In 1997, the middle man between the West and China business had to come through Hong Kong.
00:16:21Not anymore.
00:16:22Businesses, Western businesses, they go straight to China to do business in China.
00:16:27They go to Guangzhou.
00:16:28They go to Shanghai.
00:16:29They go to Beijing and Tianjin and the North.
00:16:33They go to Sichuan directly.
00:16:35They don't need Hong Kong anymore.
00:16:37What Hong Kong sells very, very well is lots of services.
00:16:42Financial services, propaganda, PR, soft power, marketing, photography, much more than specific trading.
00:17:01And of course, this is a world class port.
00:17:05But it's not the number one port in China anymore.
00:17:07Shanghai.
00:17:08Shanghai port has more movement, moves more cargo than Hong Kong port, which in itself is wow.
00:17:16It's mind boggling.
00:17:19It's a monster, this port.
00:17:22But it's great because you have cargo from all over the world coming here to stack up on Chinese products, especially from the eastern seaboard and the Guangdong province.
00:17:36And then going across the Pacific and all the way to other parts of the west as well.
00:17:43But this was not as important as it was until a few years ago.
00:17:47So what the Chinese government was thinking, okay, we need to integrate Hong Kong to southern China, Guangdong province, our neighbors here to the north.
00:17:57And they came up with the fabulous concept of Greater Bay Area.
00:18:04That's how you qualify 10 cities in the Pearl River Delta plus Hong Kong and including Macau and Zohai as well.
00:18:16That famous 50-kilometer bridge from Hong Kong to Zohai was inaugurated only a few years ago.
00:18:23So this will be an enormous cluster of development for southern China for the foreseeable future.
00:18:31The problem is, Nima, is that some of the elites here in Hong Kong, they are too Atlanticist for that and too linked to Western interests for that.
00:18:43So it's a huge problem for the Chinese government to convince these oligarchs.
00:18:50And they are de facto oligarchs.
00:18:52And look, your future is not with the West. Your future is part of China.
00:18:56You are a special administrative region of China and you are Chinese.
00:19:02And you have been Chinese since the handover in 1997.
00:19:06So get over it, you know.
00:19:10Many of them didn't get over it until, what, 2019 when there was a color revolution here.
00:19:15Very, very serious.
00:19:18And at the time when I came to cover the color revolution, I was traveling around.
00:19:23Then I came back here to specifically cover and unlock the mysteries of the color revolution here.
00:19:30So one day I sat down with one of the members of the old aristocracy in Hong Kong, which I had known since the handover times in the 90s.
00:19:40And where from?
00:19:44Very important.
00:19:45From Shanghai.
00:19:46From Shanghai.
00:19:47Because the wealth, not only cultural, but the international connections.
00:19:53And even in many ramifications of trade in Hong Kong, the wealth came from Shanghai.
00:20:00Much more than from Guangzhou, from Guangdong province, the neighbors, and even from Hong Kongers themselves.
00:20:09So the role of Shanghai in the explosion of Hong Kong is absolutely essential.
00:20:13Some of the top families here, they are Shanghainese, you know.
00:20:17So he told me, look, these, he didn't use barbarians, he said, these freaks, these punks are destroying my city.
00:20:26We built the wealth of the city.
00:20:29And now the Americans with their hired guns are trying to destroy our city.
00:20:34We won't let that happen.
00:20:36And exactly, this is not, this is exactly what happened afterwards.
00:20:40The color revolution was quashed mercilessly by the Hong Kong government with help of Chinese intelligence as well.
00:20:53They mounted an Intel cell in Shenzhen across the border.
00:20:58They monitored all the leaders of the color revolution.
00:21:02They made the connection between these leaders with the American embassy here.
00:21:06So it was a very, very sophisticated Intel operation.
00:21:09And then they destroyed the leadership.
00:21:11And then, of course, but this was only a few years ago.
00:21:15So Hong Kong is still recovering from that.
00:21:17After that, there was COVID.
00:21:19So now Hong Kong is the beginning of the recovery.
00:21:22And now they have to focus on being this special pole of the Greater Bay Area in terms of developing even more this whole southern region of China,
00:21:39Southeast region of China, and selling their expertise to Shanghai, to Beijing, to the Chinese government.
00:21:49So they can apply the best techniques, especially of marketing and soft power, et cetera, to the benefit of China.
00:21:58So there is an intricate relationship, but it's very complex, Nima, very complex.
00:22:05And you feel that when you move from Shanghai and come here, it's practically two universes.
00:22:12It's not to mention that they speak Cantonese, which is another linguistic universe as well, in a way of thinking, completely different.
00:22:21And, of course, the people from the south, Cantonese from the south, and especially Cantonese from Hong Kong,
00:22:28they always have a certain aversion towards the north.
00:22:32And when I mean the north, not Shanghai, Beijing.
00:22:36So the relationship between Hong Kong and Beijing is very complex.
00:22:41The relation between Hong Kong and Shanghai is much easier, especially because you have a generation of Shanghainese here and made the city wealthy.
00:22:50Right. So this is a short explanation to all of you of the inner complexities of China.
00:22:56But now, for instance, today I was reading the South China Morning Post, which used to be my local newspaper for many years.
00:23:03And even when you read the opinion columns, you'll see that now we have to get our act together because the Americans are attacking all of us,
00:23:12including us here in Hong Kong.
00:23:15And it doesn't matter that the Americans are ever present here in Hong Kong.
00:23:21Hong Kong, in many aspects, is an American city as well.
00:23:25But now the people who run businesses here and the oligarchs who run business Hong Kong, they have to start thinking strategically in terms of being Chinese, essentially.
00:23:36And not Hong Kong separate from China anymore.
00:23:39So this is one of the big changes of these past few days and weeks.
00:23:44And when is she going to call to Donald Trump?
00:23:50Never.
00:23:51Never.
00:23:52I'm sure you got the official Ministry of Foreign Relations definition, right?
00:24:01A tariff-wielding barbarian can never expect China to make a call.
00:24:10This is the official Ministry of Foreign Relations position in Beijing.
00:24:14And these past few days they have been saying more or less the same thing, a little more diplomatically.
00:24:20But it hasn't changed.
00:24:22Why it hasn't changed and why it won't change?
00:24:27Because China was prepared for it.
00:24:31And it was prepared not since the beginning of Trump 2.0.
00:24:35Since the beginning of Trump 1.0.
00:24:39I remember very well at the time, I was still working with Asia Times based here in Hong Kong.
00:24:45So I was coming here, I was between Asia and Southeast Asia and Hong Kong all the time and going to China as well.
00:24:52So when Trump launched their first tariffs against China, the Chinese were already expecting it, even before Trump came to power.
00:25:00So now this is a replay.
00:25:03So they are even more prepared now, Nima, for the replay.
00:25:07They built their international connections, especially with the Southeast Asian neighbors, the ASEAN 10, Association of Southeast Asian Nations, the 10 nations, across Central Asia, with Latin America, with Africa.
00:25:25So, you know, they have a global, let's say, Friends of China network, which we have a mix of multilateral organizations and direct contacts by the Chinese government.
00:25:39So we get BRICS into the mix, of course.
00:25:43We have the Shanghai Cooperation Organization.
00:25:45We have the members of the New Silk Roads of the Belt and Road Initiative.
00:25:50Over 150 nations are official partners of the Belt and Road Initiative.
00:25:56And we have missions, trade missions and diplomatic missions of the Chinese government going everywhere.
00:26:02Where was Xi Jinping last week?
00:26:04In Southeast Asia.
00:26:06He visited three very important Southeast Asian nations, Malaysia, Vietnam and Cambodia.
00:26:12Cambodia and Vietnam were hit very hard by the American tariffs.
00:26:18There's a lot of foreign direct investment from China in Cambodia.
00:26:23So they will have the Cambodians.
00:26:25Vietnam, the same thing.
00:26:27The relationship between Hanoi and Beijing now is very good.
00:26:32For the first time in, I could even say, centuries.
00:26:36Seriously, you know.
00:26:38And they know that an attack on China is an attack on Southeast Asia as well.
00:26:43And Malaysia, the same thing.
00:26:45In Malaysia, now that they have Anwar, which is a very, very good prime minister, very close with Vladimir Putin as well.
00:26:56And close with Xi Jinping.
00:26:58So ASEAN and China, they are building a strategy together to counteract the tariffs.
00:27:06So we can say, even now, with a measure of certainty, that Trump has already lost half of Asia.
00:27:16If you count China, if you count Southeast Asia, that's the most productive part of Asia.
00:27:23We're not talking about India.
00:27:24India is a basket case.
00:27:26It's completely different.
00:27:27And we're not talking about Central Asia.
00:27:29Economy is much smaller.
00:27:31And we're still not talking about West Asia because, as you know, West Asia is mired into the Zionist war against everybody.
00:27:40So that's another story.
00:27:42But the most important economic parts of Asia, China has already won.
00:27:47And, of course, there's Iran.
00:27:49And this is something that it's a pity that you're not coming.
00:27:54I'm very sorry about that.
00:27:56But I'll be in Iran next week.
00:27:58So it will be great for all of us who are going to Iran in the next few days to see from Iran not only all the Iranian-related issues, domestic economy, nuclear program, etc., but Iran-China relationships.
00:28:15And Iran, China, and Russia, they are all under sanctions, tariffs, you name it.
00:28:21So now there is a front between these top three bricks to counteract the Americans at every level, geopolitical, geoeconomic, trade, finance, etc.
00:28:33And, obviously, Iran for China is a matter of national security because Iran is one of the top energy providers to China.
00:28:42And Iran is a member of the New Sick Roads as well.
00:28:46And Iran is one of the crossroads for exports from China going to West Asia and then to Europe.
00:28:55So Iran's role is immensely important in China.
00:29:00And it will be great to talk about this with the Iranians.
00:29:04Well, as you can see, this is all interlinked.
00:29:09If there is one positive aspect of this tariff dementia is that it serves to solidify different levels of union and cooperation among most Asian nations and most Global South nations.
00:29:30We can even start to talk about a sort of United Global South Front to fight against the imperial dementia.
00:29:43And this is fascinating because do you know who used the terminology United Front from the 50s, especially in the 60s, all the way to the early 70s?
00:29:55Mount Zetong.
00:29:56Mount Zetong.
00:29:57And now there is a revival of Mao in China, which is an absolutely fascinating phenomenon.
00:30:05It requires that we have to go deep into it.
00:30:09And I would like to get into the post ideological aspect of this revival of not Maoism per se, but Mao's slogans, Mao's predictions.
00:30:24One of them, for instance, that is revealing itself to be absolutely brilliant, that the US is a paper tiger.
00:30:34Everybody now in China, even on TikTok, is saying that now the West is even more a paper tiger than they were in the 60s and 70s.
00:30:43The concept is brilliant.
00:30:44The concept is brilliant.
00:30:45It is a paper tiger.
00:30:46And the desperate tariff dementia is a sign of desperation from a desperate empire from a paper tiger.
00:30:55It's not a real tiger anymore.
00:30:58And when you see diplomats at the Ministry of Foreign Relations in Beijing using this tiger terminology, some declinations of it, that's absolutely fascinating.
00:31:13And it points to this continuum in Chinese history where you cannot simply erase Maoism.
00:31:21No way.
00:31:22Without Maoism, there would not have been industrialization of China.
00:31:26With all the mistakes involved, all the tragedies involved.
00:31:29We know that, including the Cultural Revolution.
00:31:32But then picked up on that to start building the reforms and start building the renaissance of China as a big trading power.
00:31:44So this continuum is absolutely fundamental.
00:31:48So when you see a so-called analysis of China by these absolutely pathetic so-called Chinese experts in the think tanks of the US, they missed the point completely.
00:32:03Absolutely.
00:32:04Once again, it's not a matter of defending the excesses of Maoism.
00:32:09Nothing to do with that.
00:32:11But you have to see what Mao had in mind in terms of turning a nation of peasants into an industrial power.
00:32:19To what extent he succeeded.
00:32:21And to what extent this was the, let's say, the philosophical stone for Deng Xiaoping to pick it up and say,
00:32:28Okay, now it's our drive to start developing and to product, to make, to produce productive capitalism in socialism.
00:32:41Let's say productive socialism with a few capitalist characteristics.
00:32:45And of course, you know, go back to what we were before.
00:32:49We were always a big trading power.
00:32:51So it's all there.
00:32:53You know, it's a sequence.
00:32:55And now Xi Jinping, which in many aspects, he looks back at Mao.
00:33:02He learns lessons from Mao.
00:33:04And he reapplies these lessons with a different terminology, but with the same idea.
00:33:12And the idea, the basic idea is a stable, solid China with connections all over the world as a stable, trustworthy, diplomatic, geopolitical, geoeconomic, financial, and trade power.
00:33:29Can you imagine?
00:33:30This is what is called a vision for a state, Nima.
00:33:34It's enormous.
00:33:35It's huge.
00:33:36It has a lot of problems.
00:33:37For instance, I'm reading this book now.
00:33:40So I'm not promoting this book.
00:33:44On the contrary, I want to destroy it in writing.
00:33:48It was written by two Atlanticist Chinese guys from the School of Oriental and African Studies in London, which was basically MI6.
00:33:59I have many sons of friends on my study that SOAS.
00:34:06And they're trying to basically paint Xi Jinping as a new Mao, which is total bullshit.
00:34:14So what I want to do is to finish reading this book, which is interesting.
00:34:17For instance, you cannot find this book in Shanghai.
00:34:20I found it here at my favorite bookshop in Hong Kong.
00:34:23That's great because you need to know what the enemy is thinking.
00:34:27And the enemy in this case is Chinese academics working in the West.
00:34:33There are still many and some of them are influential.
00:34:38And some of them, because they only read themselves in a bubble.
00:34:45So then we see, you know, opinion pages in the big papers.
00:34:50It could be Financial Times or Washington Post or whatever, influenced by these people.
00:34:55And they are very, very misguided analysis.
00:34:58So I bought the book to read it and then deconstruct it.
00:35:01But the thesis behind it is Chinese who don't understand what she is trying to do in China.
00:35:10And to understand that, not only, for instance, you learn more in one week in Shanghai than in 10 years in any university,
00:35:19I was listening from businessmen, from academics, from PhD graduates, for instance.
00:35:26I had a debate.
00:35:28It was not a debate.
00:35:29We had a seminar with Professor Zhang Weiwei at Fudan University.
00:35:34Professor Zhang Weiwei, a very good friend.
00:35:36He is the conceptualizer of the notion of China as a civilization state.
00:35:42So we had a seminar discussing Russia-China strategic partnership.
00:35:47And then we had a round table with PhD students.
00:35:52It was myself and four PhD students.
00:35:55And then immediately I said, look, let's open to the floor.
00:35:58And the questions from the PhD students on the floor, wow, better than anything you read on Western media about China.
00:36:06At the highest level in different disciplines.
00:36:08You know, not necessarily only international relations and political science PhDs.
00:36:14From everything, from technical expertise, etc.
00:36:17So you learn more with an interaction like that than reading 10 books like this.
00:36:23You see?
00:36:24But, of course, you have to do the comparisons all the time.
00:36:28And Hong Kong is good for that.
00:36:30Especially when you come from China.
00:36:32You spend some time in China.
00:36:33You come to Hong Kong and then you can compare the extremely westernized way in Hong Kong of looking at China with the real China that you just saw.
00:36:44Well, this is what I did these past two weeks.
00:36:47You learn nonstop.
00:36:50How do they see the two conflicts in Ukraine and in the Middle East?
00:36:58Do they really find it as a war against them?
00:37:01Or do they see it as a regional war, regional conflict, which doesn't that much influence China?
00:37:07They see it essentially, Nima, as let's say a starter in the menu against a bigger war against them in the future.
00:37:18This is absolutely essential.
00:37:21This is the way the Politburo sees it.
00:37:24This is the way I would say some of the best academics, Tsinghua, Ramin University, Fudan, etc. see it.
00:37:33And it comes down almost to, I wouldn't say a popular level, but to the level of a well-informed citizen in a big city like Shanghai with access to excellent discussions on social media, on Weibo, on the chats of different channels.
00:37:54Just to give you an idea, the numbers are mind boggling.
00:37:58The people at Goncha told me that they have several channels in several platforms.
00:38:03So it's not only the website.
00:38:05The website is only a small part of the bigger thing.
00:38:08They told me that when you add up the views that they have in all their channels, all the sub channels, different platforms, etc.
00:38:20They reach 200 million people.
00:38:25And this is one media.
00:38:28So it's absolutely mind boggling that the reach a lot.
00:38:33And they discuss everything.
00:38:35The comment section at Goncha is fabulous.
00:38:40It's really, really good.
00:38:42And they discuss in depth, much more in depth than if you read the comment section of the South China Morning Post here.
00:38:48Much, much, infinitely better, you know.
00:38:51And they are self-critical as well.
00:38:54It's not only apologies of the Communist Party and all.
00:38:57No, no, no.
00:38:58Self-critical.
00:38:59So this is very important.
00:39:01So in terms of the war, the official position of Beijing vis-a-vis the war in Ukraine, very touchy subject.
00:39:14Okay.
00:39:16A second approach to your question.
00:39:19For instance, I was reading the analysis of Colonel Zoubo, based in Beijing, very famous.
00:39:28I met him in Astana over a year ago at the forum in Astana.
00:39:33We had a wonderful conversation.
00:39:35Guy's ultra sharp, ultra smart.
00:39:39And his latest op-ed, he's basically, it's very hardcore on Russia.
00:39:47He's basically saying that in three years Russia was unable to win a war against Ukraine.
00:39:53Which is technically correct.
00:39:55Of course, it doesn't get into details of why Russia chose to fight the war this way.
00:40:00It doesn't get there.
00:40:01It just goes to what's obvious in front of us.
00:40:06And he proposes a solution.
00:40:11If there is a ceasefire in terms of having a peacekeeping force, he proposes that China leads the peacekeeping force.
00:40:21Which is something extraordinary in terms of, for the first time, we're going to have an enormous Chinese contingent in one of the hottest hotspots in the world as a peacekeeping force and coordinating with other members.
00:40:40It's a very, very interesting idea.
00:40:43If he writes this, it's because people up there, you know, he has a green line to write something like this.
00:40:50Because it is influential.
00:40:52It's going to circulate a lot.
00:40:54But most Chinese intellectuals, they prefer to see it, of course, as Russia having its own reasons for the SMO.
00:41:07Their methodology is something that is strictly Russian.
00:41:13The Chinese not necessarily would use the same methodology.
00:41:17But they understand that Russia had to start the SMO because they were under total pressure and there would be a NATO blitzkrieg against Donbas.
00:41:29So they understand the motivation, right?
00:41:32As to how China should support Russia, they don't get into much detail.
00:41:40And this is because this is a very tricky subject across China.
00:41:47A lot of people say that China should be more forceful supporting Russia.
00:41:53And at the same time, a lot of influential people say, no, we should be totally out of it.
00:41:59And because it's in terms of our partners in the global south, many would not understand if we were more forceful.
00:42:07But it's an extremely touchy subject.
00:42:10And we don't have, I would say, a consensual view like we now have a consensual view all across every spectrum of Chinese society vis-à-vis the American tariffs.
00:42:26Completely different situation.
00:42:28They've been learning from the conflict in Ukraine.
00:42:37Many people, military officers were in Russia to learn about how Russia is fighting the United States and NATO.
00:42:47That was hugely beneficial for China.
00:42:50Of course it is, Nima.
00:42:52Absolutely.
00:42:53They are learning military lessons, you know, by the dozen.
00:42:57No question about that.
00:42:59And, of course, this is at the level of the strategic partnership.
00:43:05For instance, we don't know in detail on both sides what the Russian Ministry of Defense shares with the Chinese Ministry of Defense.
00:43:17Nobody knows that for sure.
00:43:19Not even military specialists on both sides.
00:43:22But they are learning a lot.
00:43:24Absolutely.
00:43:25And at the same time, they know that the conditions, the situation and the formations and everything.
00:43:35The battlefield in Ukraine cannot possibly be compared if the battlefield becomes the South China Sea.
00:43:43They know that also very, very well.
00:43:46But they are learning about new strategies.
00:43:50They are learning about drones, which, by the way, they are very good at fabric manufacturing.
00:43:56They are learning about hypersonic missiles, which, of course, the Russians have the best in the world.
00:44:01You name it.
00:44:03And, of course, they are talking at the level of the Minister of Defense all the time.
00:44:08What's so fascinating to me, Pepe, in terms of the relationship between Russia, China, and Iran, as we saw it between Iran and Russia,
00:44:17they, Iran, decided to help Russia with the drones and all of that.
00:44:23And they didn't even have any sort of treaty, strategic partnership.
00:44:30It seems that the relationship is just ahead of treaties.
00:44:34And do you see that would be the case for the case of Russia and China?
00:44:39It's different.
00:44:40They don't just talking about it, but it exists right on the surface.
00:44:46And it's far beyond the partnership.
00:44:49It's something beyond the partnership.
00:44:51It's something beyond alliance.
00:44:53Yes, it is beyond the partnership.
00:44:56For instance, Russia and China, they're always saying, Wang Yi said that a few days ago.
00:45:05Like, the relationship is so good that we don't even need the treaty.
00:45:09It's true.
00:45:11Because they talk about every possible, you know, node of a strategic partnership at different levels and different disciplines all the time.
00:45:25At every level and at the highest level, including, of course, Putin and Xi themselves.
00:45:31There are regular phone calls.
00:45:34And with Iran and Russia is different because actually there is a written treaty, which, by the way, is not a military alliance.
00:45:46I wrote that in my last column about it.
00:45:51It was one last month, I think.
00:45:54Very, very important.
00:45:56But they started discussing this, what became a treaty, over two years ago.
00:46:04So they discussed this over and over again.
00:46:06And while they were discussing, they were collaborating already militarily.
00:46:11And in terms of China and Iran, that's, I would say, that's hazier as an answer.
00:46:17They have a strategic partnership, but it's delimited to certain areas from energy to the penetration of the New Silk Roads in Iran.
00:46:28And Iran as a crossroads for the New Silk Roads to West Asia and to Europe.
00:46:34So the relationship between these three, they are at different levels.
00:46:39But as you said, they discuss everything all the time.
00:46:43And it goes way beyond a simple, let's say, formal partnership or treaty or alliance.
00:46:53And now that the three are being attacked by the empire at the same time at different levels.
00:47:00It's no wonder that they had the first meeting in Beijing and then the second meeting in Moscow about the Iranian nuclear program before these indirect conversations in Oman.
00:47:14This is a graphic example that they are talking about.
00:47:18Everything that is important and that affects all three at the same time.
00:47:21A possible attack against Iran is an attack against BRICS, is an attack against Russia and China as well.
00:47:28Everybody knows that very, very well.
00:47:30So they have to discuss a common approach.
00:47:33And for instance, this in parallel to the common approach between China and Southeast Asia to fight the tariffs.
00:47:41So really, we can see a BRICS led and BRICS style, everyone on the table discussing everything all the time in front of us.
00:47:58And especially now in the run up towards the BRICS summit in Rio, which could become a groundbreaker.
00:48:08If the Brazilians do it right, in the beginning of this year, everybody was looking at, oh, summit in Rio in early July, this is a joke.
00:48:18But now they have a chance to produce something, a bombshell coming out of Rio.
00:48:26All the elements are there.
00:48:28And all the big, big players are there.
00:48:30And this American attack concerns all of them.
00:48:33So it's an attack against BRICS.
00:48:36The Trump tariff war is an attack against the Global South.
00:48:40It's a hybrid war against the Global South that is developed into a hot war against BRICS as a whole.
00:48:47We knew that before.
00:48:49And now we have 100% confirmation about what we suspected before the beginning of the Trump organization.
00:48:58I have Trump organization, the Trump administration.
00:49:03By the way, Trump himself doesn't know what ASEAN is and what BRICS is.
00:49:10So that gives you his frame of mind and how he is completely, you know, bumbled about by his xenophobe advisors like Miran, like Peter Navarro,
00:49:26or even like Treasury Secretary Besant, who knows nothing about China, all these, you know, together.
00:49:33So that's dangerous.
00:49:35And the fact that Trump, his attention span is, as we all know, minimalistic.
00:49:40And he doesn't read.
00:49:42And obviously he's never going to read about how BRICS was formed, what BRICS wants to do, the expansion of BRICS, etc.
00:49:50Same about the Shanghai Cooperation Organization, which Trump doesn't even suspect exists.
00:49:56And of course, ASEAN, which he should know, he doesn't.
00:50:00So that's complicated.
00:50:02Once again, the rational actors on one side against an irrational circus organizer on the other.
00:50:08So now it's time for not only China and ASEAN get their act together, but these three top BRICS get their act together and the BRICS as a whole get their act together before the summit in Rio.
00:50:19So we have tangible results, which, of course, will infuriate the empire even more.
00:50:26And I'm not even talking about dedolarization because they will never announce this at the summit, for instance.
00:50:36But they can announce testing and improving different mechanisms related to settlements and payment mechanisms bypassing the US dollar.
00:50:53And this will infuriate Trump and the ruling elites of empire.
00:50:58But then it will be too late because this would be a concerted BRICS response to the tariff war.
00:51:08In terms of dedolarization that you've mentioned, I think they'll do it before talking about it.
00:51:14You don't need to talk about it.
00:51:17Just like the Chinese approach made in China 2025.
00:51:23We are in 2025.
00:51:25Made in China 2025 was conceptualized 10 years ago.
00:51:30So Trump comes to power in the beginning of 2017.
00:51:33He looks around and says, we have to do something against China.
00:51:362018, the first batch of mega tsunami of sanctions trump 1.0 against China.
00:51:44And many of them were related to Made in China 2025, which essentially China wanted to become number one in 10 different high-tech domains by or number two or among the top three by 2025.
00:52:01What the Chinese did, they continued to do everything that they were doing before and they stopped talking about Made in China 2025.
00:52:08So what's happening now?
00:52:10They are already number one in seven of these domains.
00:52:13They are about to become number one in the eighth and in two years max in the other two.
00:52:20And on artificial intelligence, there's a huge debate of who's ahead.
00:52:26Maybe they are neck to neck.
00:52:29But for instance, very simple example.
00:52:33Guess who went to Beijing last week?
00:52:36I included this in my column because it's an immensely important information connected to the Chinese reaction to the Trump tariff form.
00:52:45Jensen Huang, the CEO of NVIDIA.
00:52:50He's Taiwanese.
00:52:53I'm reading a book about him at the moment.
00:52:57The guy who wrote the book.
00:53:00Okay.
00:53:01But the technical information in the book is excellent because he tracks the technical highway followed by Huang since the beginning of his career.
00:53:15And since he was a poor Taiwanese immigrant who went to a school in the middle of Kentucky, that kind of stuff.
00:53:22So the story is amazing.
00:53:24The guy is the personification of the American dream.
00:53:27He is a technical genius.
00:53:29He doesn't take any bullshit.
00:53:32And he's absolutely sure of what he's doing.
00:53:36What did he do last week?
00:53:41He never wears a business suit.
00:53:44He put on a business suit.
00:53:46He went to Beijing with his top executives.
00:53:49He talked to a hyper minister of commerce and trade in Beijing.
00:53:55And he said directly, look, China is very important for NVIDIA.
00:54:02We're not going to abandon your market, even with all the restrictions by the Trump administration on exports of our ships.
00:54:11So you can count on us.
00:54:14This is enormous, Nima.
00:54:16You have the CEO of the top chip behemoth in China going in the US, I'm sorry, going to Beijing to say, look, you are very important for my company.
00:54:28And I will do everything to keep our relations sound.
00:54:32Why did he do that?
00:54:34First of all, because he needs the Chinese market.
00:54:37And second, if he doesn't cultivate the Chinese market, guess what?
00:54:42The Chinese in a matter of two to three years, maybe maximum four, they will have what he has now and they can kill him in the market.
00:54:55And not only the Chinese market, but the global market.
00:54:58So Huang is protecting his flanks as well.
00:55:03And he could even in the future, depending on how the tariff war goes, he could offer a partnership with the Chinese.
00:55:15Or he could even delocalize his factories from the US to China.
00:55:21Anything is possible.
00:55:22If he goes on like this, he knows that he could be smashed by the tariffs.
00:55:28So you see, this is a subplot in the tariff war that's immensely important.
00:55:35There are a lot of businesses from all over who are getting their marching orders to go to Beijing and talk to them.
00:55:44Strike a deal.
00:55:46Delocalize to China or whatever.
00:55:48Don't abandon the Chinese market.
00:55:50Don't abandon the Chinese market.
00:55:51You name it, you know.
00:55:52And of course, in terms of general trade, it's what's happening in the Canton Fair.
00:55:59Right now, as we speak, people from all over 200 countries going to the Canton Fair to buy everything that China produces.
00:56:07So how these people think that with tariffs and barriers they're going to prevent this, let's say, this global movement of trade?
00:56:19They can't.
00:56:20Simple.
00:56:21They will isolate the US, which may be one of their fantasies.
00:56:29For what?
00:56:30We don't know.
00:56:31For what long term?
00:56:32None of us know really.
00:56:34Because in terms of sanitizing the American economy, it's not going to work.
00:56:40The costs will be paid by American workers.
00:56:43Everybody knows that.
00:56:45American companies that delocalize, they cannot relocalize back to the US in a matter of one, two or three years.
00:56:53It's at least four years for a complex operation like that.
00:56:57Coming back, setting up everything, chains of production, training workers, you name it.
00:57:06So the mendacity, the overall mendacity of the whole scheme is really mind boggling.
00:57:15And you don't need to be Jeffrey Sachs to understand that.
00:57:18You can be a taxi driver in New York City and you will understand that.
00:57:23Yeah.
00:57:24When I look at the Asia and the way that you've mentioned China is trying to connect with Malaysia
00:57:33and Vietnam and they're making their own circle of countries.
00:57:40But on the other hand, you see Russia and Iran are doing everything in order to have something,
00:57:47some sort of unity considered in Central Asia.
00:57:51You see everything is changing in that region.
00:57:54And as the American hegemony is just contracting, just reducing in the region,
00:58:00we saw the defense minister of Saudi Arabia going to Iran.
00:58:06And this is the outcome of what Russia and China did in the Middle East.
00:58:12And do you think that Donald Trump and his administration are somehow understanding what's going on?
00:58:22No, they don't.
00:58:23The moves on the part of Russia, China, Iran, and what's going on?
00:58:27No, they don't.
00:58:28They don't, Nima, because first of all, they don't know how multilateral organizations,
00:58:34how powerful they are and how they're becoming even more powerful.
00:58:38They don't know about this interlocking strategic partnerships.
00:58:42They overestimate the size and the power of the American economy.
00:58:48So basically they don't know how fragile the American economy is and how the localized it is
00:58:54and how it doesn't produce literally anything.
00:58:57And to restart producing again, it will take years.
00:59:01They don't know all that, of course.
00:59:04So basically these are fantasies enveloped in xenophobia and racism.
00:59:13Never forget that.
00:59:15It's the same racism manifested against Iran, the decades of Iranophobia,
00:59:23against the lens of Islam as a whole, Islamophobia, against Russia, which still won,
00:59:29especially in Europe, russophobia, and against China because now China is strong.
00:59:34So xenophobia, which used to be mild before, now is ultra hardcore because now you are facing power on the planet.
00:59:43And you have to deal with it.
00:59:48You have to respect it.
00:59:50And if you're thinking about spheres of influence, okay.
00:59:54But in terms of trade, China's sphere of influence is global.
00:59:59China is a global trading power.
01:00:02And there's nothing the US can offer to anybody anywhere to counteract, manufacture high-quality Chinese products.
01:00:13At once again, the example of the Canton Fair this week.
01:00:18Why you have people from literally all over the planet going to a fair like this?
01:00:22Because they know they will get there and they will find first-class products by a top manufacturing power with their supply chains that they can get in a matter of days in many cases.
01:00:35Does the US have anything remotely similar?
01:00:38Of course not.
01:00:40They can sell overpriced F-35s.
01:00:45And that's about it.
01:00:48I'll give a very simple example.
01:00:51I used to buy an excellent jeans brand from California.
01:00:56It was called J Brand.
01:00:59Years ago, it was probably the best jeans on the planet.
01:01:04First-class, designed in the US, made in California.
01:01:07Probably was too expensive.
01:01:09So what happened?
01:01:10They delocalized to Indonesia.
01:01:13So the next jeans that I bought was made in Indonesia.
01:01:18It was still very, very good.
01:01:20But the price continued with gigantic markup, you know.
01:01:25So what happened after a few years?
01:01:27They went out of business.
01:01:29What the hell?
01:01:32This is an American product.
01:01:34They could inundate the world with this first-class jeans.
01:01:38And made in Indonesia was costing much less.
01:01:41But no.
01:01:42They prefer to keep the markup.
01:01:44And now, these past few days, this markup mess was totally demystified all over the place.
01:01:53Because the Chinese themselves, they start going on TikTok and showing to American consumers.
01:01:59You know that coach bag that you pay $30,000 in New York City?
01:02:03We make them here.
01:02:04You know how much they cost?
01:02:05300.
01:02:06300.
01:02:09Can you imagine fashion victims all over the US and the West when they look at that?
01:02:15No.
01:02:16It's not made in Italy.
01:02:17It's not made in Britain.
01:02:18It's not made in France.
01:02:19It's made here.
01:02:21China.
01:02:22World capital of manufacturing.
01:02:25So, the fact that they managed with a few TikTok videos to totally explode the scam in the luxury market on a global level.
01:02:34This is beyond brilliant.
01:02:36It's absolutely brilliant.
01:02:38And the West will never learn.
01:02:43They'll never learn.
01:02:44And it's all about markups.
01:02:46It's all about excessive profits based on manufacturing nations where they're giving steady jobs to large parts of their population.
01:02:59This is how it started in China.
01:03:00And then it went all over the place.
01:03:02It went to Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Bangladesh, etc.
01:03:06It's the same model everywhere to supply the West, to supply different markets in the West, including the luxury market.
01:03:17They cannot manufacture anything anymore in the US, period.
01:03:22And if we compare to European, it's even cheaper in the West compared to European costs.
01:03:28If you manufacture in Europe, like the Italian luxury market, less than 0,0001% can afford it.
01:03:43Pepe, what's so amazing to me when it comes to China and the United States is how the United States tried to force its hegemony all over the world.
01:03:55It's based on fear and some sort of security agreement.
01:03:59But when it comes to China, it's all about the benefit.
01:04:03Who's going to benefit more?
01:04:05People are getting closer to China because they're going to benefit from China.
01:04:09And China would benefit from them.
01:04:11This is the two ways sort of trade.
01:04:15But when it comes to the United States, it's all the same.
01:04:20They're not going to change it.
01:04:22They don't even consider any sort of, I don't know, modification, any sort of somehow trim it and make it better and improve it.
01:04:36There is nothing there.
01:04:38Even with the Trump administration, many people, these people who voted for Donald Trump, they were hoping some sort of change in the United States.
01:04:46But you see, they're getting the same.
01:04:49They're unifying BRICS and BRICS countries.
01:04:55Well, so it's positive for the global majority.
01:05:01In fact, it's, by the way, China will use a monster Tzu Tzu move from now on.
01:05:10They're going to use the absolutely dimensional move and attack of the adversary to unbalance him even more.
01:05:24And obviously, the adversary would never expect that.
01:05:28Trump was sure that with this 245%, the Chinese, oh, they're going to pick up the phone and call me and make a difference.
01:05:38No, not anymore.
01:05:40So they don't even know how to judge how the international conjuncture is completely different from what it was, let's say, 20 years, 25 years ago.
01:05:53At the beginning of the millennium was much different.
01:05:56And China at the time was still growing.
01:05:58They were they were entering the World Trade Organization at the time.
01:06:02So they had a long way ahead.
01:06:04Just a completely different situation now.
01:06:06And even to 10 years ago.
01:06:11And the way that what I find fascinating is that, for instance, BRICS and SEO, they took a long time to take off as organizations.
01:06:25I remember BRICS meetings in the 2000s where they're not going, not they were not going anywhere, but they were very, very, there were no news coming out of it.
01:06:37It was basically talk, talk, talk.
01:06:39SEO, the same thing.
01:06:40I went to several SEO round tables and all that.
01:06:43And it was basically talk, talk, talk.
01:06:45And suddenly you have them springing up as great multilateral organizations and appealing to most of the global south and the global majority.
01:06:58And the past BRICS summit in Kazan was something immensely impressive, immensely impressive.
01:07:06Thanks to the way the Russians spent the whole year making it, OK, this is going to be a huge success.
01:07:12And it was, you know, beyond all expectations.
01:07:16And at the same time, all these multilateral organizations and individual governments, they started to understand that, look, we need to have common positions on serious issues.
01:07:33It's like what was not possible after 1955 at the Bandung conference where we had all the heavyweights sitting on the same table was the beginning of the non-aligned movement.
01:07:48And it could have been very, very strong.
01:07:50It was destroyed by the US because they were not powerful enough.
01:07:53Now it's different.
01:07:54Now you can have a sort of mega non-aligned movement on a global level that is strong enough.
01:08:02And they can, when they act strongly as a whole, they can even intimidate the empire.
01:08:11So the reaction of the global south alongside China to the tariffs will show to the empire that, look, you can't.
01:08:20The bullying all across the global south is over.
01:08:23It's not only bullying China.
01:08:25It's bullying all of us global south, you know.
01:08:28You think you can bomb Iran tomorrow?
01:08:31No, you can't.
01:08:32Because you're going to have to deal with Russia and China as well.
01:08:36So you can bomb Yemen because they're cowards.
01:08:39And this is exactly what they're doing.
01:08:41They are so cowardly that they are bombing technically the poorest nation in the Arab world, although it's the most sophisticated of them all by eons, you know.
01:08:57Because they can.
01:08:58Because they can.
01:08:59Because they can.
01:09:00Why?
01:09:01Because to send a message.
01:09:02Their own terminology.
01:09:03Send a message is, if I'm not mistaken, was Hegseth or Waltz.
01:09:08One of those clowns anyway.
01:09:10But I think it was Hegseth.
01:09:12To send a message.
01:09:13You cannot.
01:09:14You have to be in favor of a genocide.
01:09:20You cannot be against a genocide.
01:09:23So we bomb you.
01:09:24We bomb you because you're against a genocide.
01:09:26So this is the message that the global south looks at the bombing of Yemen and he gets on that.
01:09:32And still, have they managed to subdue Yemen?
01:09:40No.
01:09:41And they will never be able to subdue it.
01:09:43And Yemen is humiliating these clowns on a daily basis.
01:09:47And it will continue to be that.
01:09:49So if a small regional power like Yemen can do that, can you imagine the collective power of the global south?
01:09:56So anybody with a brain left in the empire looks at the chessboard at the moment and say, oh, man.
01:10:03We isolated themselves.
01:10:05So we are in deep trouble because basically what do we have?
01:10:09The vassals in Europe.
01:10:10Who cares about the vassals in Europe?
01:10:12They are, you know, plunging into their own suicidal pit.
01:10:17And on top of it, they are despised by the Americans.
01:10:22But, you know, this renewed power of the global south and the global majority compared to the situation in the fifties,
01:10:31this is a measure of auspiciousness to be very Chinese about it for all of us.
01:10:38You know, the thing is, if these political elites will be at their highest level to make it work.
01:10:47We know, for instance, Xi and Putin are.
01:10:52To be very frank with you, Nima, I'm not sure Pezhetskyan is.
01:10:57I would say Ayatollah Khamenei is, but I am not sure Pezhetskyan is.
01:11:03Lula, to a certain extent, is.
01:11:07And if he finds a way to shine at the summit in Rio, he will pick it up.
01:11:12And he knows how to do it.
01:11:14And he enjoys enormous soft power all across the global south.
01:11:19So we are counting on Lula, of course.
01:11:22But there are not many.
01:11:23There are not many.
01:11:24Can you imagine MBS or MBZ being leaders of the global majority?
01:11:28Of course not.
01:11:29A bunch of gangsters.
01:11:31Pepe, I think you mentioned Europe.
01:11:36And it's so important to see Europe today and the way that China sees.
01:11:41As we know, Russia is totally disappointed with Europe.
01:11:44And they don't know what would be the future between Russia and Europe.
01:11:49But how does it seem, how does it work for China?
01:11:54What do they want and what do they see in Europe in terms of the conflict between the United States and China?
01:12:02Well, they see an open in NEMA for a large trade deal of the European Union.
01:12:08But the Europeans also saw that.
01:12:11The Europeans said, look, are we going to be a bunch of chihuahuas and on top of it clobbered by our master every day?
01:12:19No, we need a way out.
01:12:21Their way out in terms of trade would be to send a delegation to Beijing, which is what's going to happen.
01:12:26Okay, let's rewire our possible large trade deal.
01:12:33So this from the point of view of individual nations inside the EU, we don't know how good this is going to be.
01:12:43But the leadership in Brussels already saw that they have only one way out of this to do a mega deal with China.
01:12:54And the Chinese, of course, they're not going to say no.
01:13:00So I'm very curious to see the result of these negotiations, probably in late June, early July.
01:13:09By the way, by the time of the BRICS Summit.
01:13:13Just to wrap up this session, Pepe.
01:13:15Yes.
01:13:16And you said that you're going to be in your own.
01:13:19And unfortunately, I'm not going to be there.
01:13:21Unfortunately, you're not going to be there, Nima, but I'll keep you updated on everything.
01:13:26And if you have questions, please tell me so I can put your questions to some characters.
01:13:33Do you think that the negotiation, the talks between Iran and the United States, do you see Wetkoff capable of doing it?
01:13:47Because we know that Israelis are doing everything.
01:13:50Everything to influence the talks.
01:13:53Absolutely.
01:13:54Yes.
01:13:55So it's going to be very important.
01:13:56In your opinion, are we going to see the same sort of attitude as we're witnessing in Ukraine?
01:14:02Or the case of Iran and the United States would be different somehow?
01:14:07I prefer to wait, Nima.
01:14:10For the moment, the fact that Wetkoff, after two sessions, he was not so bad after these two sessions.
01:14:21And apparently, he talks and he listens.
01:14:24Coming from an American delegation, this is already gigantic.
01:14:29The problem is the pressure he is under by the whole of Team Trump 2.0, the Zionist Axis, the donors, you name it.
01:14:44So, let's see, if there is one positive aspect of all that, is that Wetkoff comes back to D.C. and tells Trump straight in his face,
01:14:59look, these guys over there, they are very rational.
01:15:03We can strike a deal that is rational as long as everybody respects us, including us.
01:15:10So, can we imagine Wetkoff being diplomat enough to do that?
01:15:17And don't forget, he's not a diplomat.
01:15:19He's a real estate developer.
01:15:21It's a different story.
01:15:23So, if he's...
01:15:25Some of my friends in Washington are saying that he's very smart.
01:15:30We don't know.
01:15:32If he's smart enough, then it's amazing.
01:15:36He will accomplish an absolutely impossible job, which is to make the Iranians...
01:15:45I wouldn't say trust, but at least have a minimal measure of trust that if they sign a deal with the U.S., again, this deal is not going to be destroyed afterwards.
01:15:58But it's a very long way, Nima, and you know it very well.
01:16:02It's an enormous stretch.
01:16:05And it depends essentially from one guy.
01:16:08It's not even a delegation, you know.
01:16:11It depends on the special envoy of the President of the United States.
01:16:15So, Trump will be listening only to him.
01:16:17Trump, okay, what did you talk with the Iranians in Oman?
01:16:21Okay, what did they tell you about?
01:16:23That's it.
01:16:24So, it's up to him.
01:16:27The success of failure of these negotiations...
01:16:31Wow!
01:16:32Can you believe it?
01:16:33We all depend on a New York State developer.
01:16:37So, we're going to have a hot war or not.
01:16:40This is where we are at the moment.
01:16:42As crazy as it is, this is the situation at the moment.
01:16:47Exactly.
01:16:48Thank you so much, Pepe.
01:16:51Thank you so much, Pepe.
01:16:52Muito obrigado, Pepe.
01:16:53Grande abraço do Brasil para a China.
01:16:57Vou mandar um grande abraço.
01:16:59Bom, aqui, grande abraço seu para Hong Kong.
01:17:03E no Irã, um grande abraço seu para todo mundo inteiro.
01:17:06Exatamente.
01:17:07Exatamente.
01:17:10Tchau, tchau.
01:17:11Tchau, tchau.
01:17:12Bye, bye.
01:17:18Tchau, tchau.