President and CEO of Oxfam America Abby Maxman joined Brittany Lewis on "Forbes Newsroom" to discuss DOGE’s attempts to cut and dismantle USAID in the Trump administration’s first 100 days.
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00:00Hi, everybody. I'm Brittany Lewis, a breaking news reporter here at Forbes.
00:07Joining me now is President and CEO of Oxfam America, Abby Maxman.
00:11Abby, thank you so much for coming on once again.
00:14So good to be with you.
00:15We are nearing the end of the first 100 days of President Trump's second term in office.
00:20And within the first few weeks of Trump 2.0, USAID was in the administration's crosshairs.
00:26Pretty immediately, Elon Musk and Doge took a chainsaw to the foreign aid agency
00:30and said what was left would be reorganized to the State Department.
00:34In that conversation that you and I had in February when this all was unraveling,
00:38you said that this was unnecessary cruelty that is undermining U.S. interests.
00:42As we sit here a few months out of that,
00:45what do you think are the implications so far of USAID effectively being dismantled?
00:49Trump administration's 90-day period, what we have seen is deadly consequences
00:56for women, children, and communities around the world.
01:00And this funding freeze, the fact of it, and how it has been managed in such a persistently chaotic way,
01:09has left and harmed and left millions of the people in the world's poorest communities
01:15in limbo and worse, facing hunger, disease, and other threats
01:20in a really cruel and intentionally destructive way
01:24for reasons that are truly hard to understand
01:27because it's not helping America's interests, American people,
01:30or ordinary working people in the U.S. or poor people around the world.
01:35USAID, as we know, is a foreign aid agency,
01:38and supporters of these cuts would say,
01:40this is putting America first, let's start at home.
01:44But in my conversations I've had since USAID have been in the crosshairs of the administration,
01:49they've talked to me about the domestic unintended consequences.
01:52A business owner has had contracts completely slashed abroad because of the USAID cuts,
01:58and his business, he said, will effectively probably be shuttered by June 1st
02:03because these contracts have been down the drain.
02:05I've talked to our science and healthcare editor right here at Forbes,
02:08and he's told me about the unintended consequences
02:11impacting biomedical research and access to medicine.
02:14I've talked to a USAID foreign services officer who formerly served with USAID,
02:20and he said that this shutdown inadvertently helps China
02:22because China is taking ownership of projects that the United States has abandoned
02:27because of these USAID cuts.
02:29So I'm curious from your perspective,
02:32what are some of the unintended consequences when it comes to USAID being shuttered?
02:36We have watched as the world richest man seems to take pride in taking away
02:43life-saving programs for children in some of the world's poorest communities,
02:47and these deadly consequences are far-reaching.
02:51And as you said, this starts here in the United States at home.
02:55There's a simple life-saving peanut paste that's commonly used to save the lives of children
03:00dying of hunger around the world.
03:01And it's made with peanuts produced by Georgia farmers.
03:06This is rotting on shelves while kids are dying,
03:10and farmers are losing the access and aren't being paid.
03:15That is one example of just too many examples of destruction and intentional harmful cruelty.
03:25It seems to be that this administration is using cruelty and testing the limits of undermining our democracy
03:33because in these 90 days we still don't have the full picture of what the U.S. government even is planning to do.
03:41And the only thing that has become more clear is how ruthless and uncaring this administration is.
03:48And, you know, we're watching Elon Musk and Marco Rubio now taking a sledgehammer to USAID
03:55when what they needed was a scalpel to find improvements and ways to find efficiencies.
04:03And something that really stuck out to me in our last conversation is that this makes up just the smallest sliver
04:09of the entire budget here, the federal budget.
04:13Foreign aid, people that are proponents of slashing some of this would say,
04:17we need help at home first, we need to put U.S. interests at home first.
04:23Elon Musk said that USAID is a criminal organization, time for it to die.
04:27He said that a few months ago, but he's also said and he's admitted during his time as the face of Doge
04:33that he's going to make mistakes, he's going to get some things wrong.
04:38In your view, do you think Elon Musk sees taking a sledgehammer to USAID,
04:43do you think he's going to see this as a mistake?
04:45Well, I certainly do, and we as Oxfam and our partners around the world see only harm and hurt and cruelty
04:55and loss of U.S. influence, loss of the U.S. as a trustworthy partner anywhere.
05:02We've seen, you know, as you were saying, U.S. funding has represented about 50 percent
05:09of the global humanitarian need and support, but less than 1 percent of the U.S. budget.
05:16And what that does is some, I was with a, this has always been a bipartisan issue,
05:23and I was with a, a members of the Senate on both sides of the aisle who said,
05:29America is great because America is good.
05:33And people trust and have confidence when we do good.
05:36We had the earthquake in Myanmar last month,
05:40and we saw the deadly consequences of the U.S. aid cuts in real time
05:44when the Trump administration failed to offer their support in the immediate aftermath of the earthquake.
05:50Now, in the past, the U.S. has deployed resources, expertise, and equipment within hours
05:56that saved lives in critical response in the first 72 hours of a disaster,
06:02and the longer-term impact on these communities,
06:05and ordinary Americans who reach out to us every day wanting to help, wanting to do good.
06:11And so it's really mind-boggling to imagine why, where the positive is out of this approach
06:18compared to the enormous amount of harm, millions and millions of people losing access
06:25to basic life-saving needs and goods, 95 million people could lose access to basic health care,
06:333 million preventable deaths annually, and so on.
06:37There's only harm and destruction here.
06:41I mean, those numbers are staggering when you're talking about people by the millions.
06:45And I have a quote that really relates to what you're saying.
06:48David Miliband, the president and CEO of the International Rescue Committee,
06:52and USAID cuts have profoundly impacted the IRC.
06:55He told this to CBS.
06:58My argument is, charities shouldn't end at home,
07:00and international aid is 0.2% of the U.S. economy, not 25% of federal spending.
07:05It's a strategic investment, it's a moral investment, and it's an impactful investment.
07:10And we talked about how it's a moral investment, but how can you touch on,
07:14how is it a strategic and impactful investment?
07:17Well, you know, the U.S. has built a bipartisan legacy of providing life-saving assistance and aid in emergencies
07:24and longer-term support to help create more stable communities around the world.
07:29A healthier world is good for America and your average, ordinary American.
07:35These cuts are making the world more dangerous and unstable for us all.
07:39Global health, food security, and disease prevention are not a thing one can do effectively in isolation.
07:46And we're watching destruction, cuts in access to medicines and disease prevention
07:53that also is part of a global world and ecosystem.
07:59And we just can only see, and I agree fully with the quotes you shared,
08:03the cuts are making the world more dangerous and unstable and putting millions of lives at risk.
08:09I don't know how that is good for your ordinary American, working Americans,
08:13who care about our common humanity.
08:15We have supporters who reach out to us all the time who want to understand what's going on and how they can help.
08:23This flies in the face of it.
08:25And you're saying there's also this loss of U.S. influence globally when it comes to these USAID cuts.
08:32And you told me before, back in February, that other donors and governments follow the United States' lead when it comes to giving.
08:39Seeing that we are giving less now because of these USAID cuts,
08:43are you seeing that happen now where other organizations, other governments, other nations are already starting to give less too?
08:51Well, we have seen other governments make changes to how they give to foreign aid and foreign assistance.
08:58And unfortunately, I think with the U.S. being so unreliable, everybody, it's changing how everyone works together.
09:08Global cooperation and coordination, which has been so fundamental to making incredible, life-saving,
09:15and life-changing measures and actions for global health, global food security,
09:21and just the dignity and security of people living in poverty around the world in the most marginalized communities around the world.
09:29So this is a time of, you know, this very dangerous and what could have been entirely avoidable pendulum swing
09:40that is putting millions of lives on the line and undermining the reputation of the United States as a partner in many of the global issues we must work together on to tackle.
09:51I'm curious how this changes your job specifically.
09:55When you guys have boots on the ground internationally, what does that look like?
09:59Because people are looking, from what you're saying, at the United States differently.
10:04I know it feels like a much safe, unsafe, or less safe place for our partners and my colleagues and our staff who work around the world.
10:15People are questioning what's happening.
10:17Why is this all being upended?
10:20We know that U.S. humanitarian programs, as one aspect of foreign assistance, have saved and improved millions of lives.
10:31And that is that the majority of Americans really have supported these over decades.
10:36Again, it's been a bipartisan issue.
10:38And for us, we believe we have a responsibility to fight on behalf of everybody who cares about this incredible support and the generosity of the American people in a way that does not undermine what is done for working Americans here.
10:58You gave the example of a small business being harmed, supply chains being devastated, farmers who contribute and whose food is supporting life-saving work around the world is going to waste on shelves.
11:15And they're not being paid, and they're not being paid, and they have contracts being taken away from them.
11:20And we are going to continue fighting, calling on Congress to take bold and unified action, to hold the line against these really destructive changes.
11:29And we are also continuing our lawsuit to support U.S. foreign aid and foreign assistance.
11:36Talk to us about that lawsuit a little bit and what you're doing specifically when it comes to calling on Congress.
11:42Because you told me last time this was an illegal assault on an independent agency.
11:47And a federal judge last month said that Musk and Doge's attempts to dissolve the agency, quote,
11:52likely violated the United States Constitution in multiple ways.
11:56So talk to us a little bit about that legal fight.
11:58Well, we continue to have our case in court.
12:03The Trump administration has tried to dismiss our case, despite our clearly demonstrating the harm that their reckless and illegal attacks have caused to organizations like Oxfam America and our partners around the world.
12:17We don't accept directly U.S. government funding, but we're watching everything collapse in resources that are dependent on each other to save lives, really under extreme threat.
12:30And people are dying.
12:32And most importantly, we are doing this because of the communities we work with every day who are caught in this life-threatening crisis.
12:40So just this week, we are filing a motion challenging the U.S. government's attempt to dismiss our life lawsuit.
12:48We believe we have both the law on our side because the actions are illegal and the moral obligation to continue to do what's right for people around the world and people in this country.
12:59And you've compared before to me that this is essentially like a spigot where you just turned off aid and that's essentially it.
13:06Let's say you are successful.
13:08Will it just be that easy to turn that back on?
13:11Will you have to set up more things in place?
13:13I mean, what does that look like?
13:15Well, the destructiveness is so far reaching.
13:18When you just think about the expertise, the employees of USAID, of other organizations who've relied on U.S. government funding, having to cut and get rid of, you know, basically fold their staff and their structure.
13:35These are people who bring expertise, experience.
13:37And as a sector, we have decades of learning where we have improved how we deliver humanitarian aid in partnership with others so it is more sustainable and lasting and helps people through crisis and looks at both the causes and the consequences of poverty, inequality and the harms that they are experiencing.
14:01So it will take a lot to rebuild, of course, but there are incredible amounts of learning, people, knowledge, skills, experience that would need to be put back in place.
14:15So the way this has been done under some, the guise of efficiency, I really could not think of a more inefficient, destructive and wasteful way of implementing any changes.
14:29And that notion of taking a sledgehammer rather than a scalpel really keeps repeating in my mind because I, as I witness our work around the world from Burkina Faso to the Democratic Republic of Congo to our work anywhere around the world, the harm is significantly outweighing the good.
14:48And to the point of the way that this was done, it was essentially done, dismantle most of USAID, reorganize the rest to the State Department.
14:56How do you think that's been going, what's left of USAID in the State Department?
15:02Well, it's really hard to see and understand what is happening because it's about diminishing and diminishing and destroying.
15:11It's unclear how it's going to show up, but there's a reported additional 30 days of review that has just been announced because we're 90 days in.
15:21And this is another unexpected development in this chaotic process about this transition to State Department.
15:29It's leaving organizations and people living in who are relying on the U.S. and its aid in limbo.
15:38And, you know, in our view, the administration has all the evidence they need that their decisions and actions so far are having deadly consequences.
15:47And it's not clear what the additional time will focus on, how these changes, because it's all rumors and chaos and rescinding of direction.
15:57You know, the changes are happening to partners around the world every day.
16:00So it seems that more cuts are not out of the question, and I don't see how both from an organization perspective under State and this highly diminished approach to aid is going to be a better setup than what we've experienced and learned and seen improving the lives of millions over the many years.
16:23I think something that has really struck me, and I've echoed this in the beginning part of this conversation, is just how when you think about a foreign aid agency being effectively dismantled,
16:35it's hard to sometimes think about the impact that it has domestically here at home.
16:41And talking how it impacts health care here, how Johns Hopkins research has been effectively kneecapped, how this is impacting businesses here, veteran-owned businesses in the United States.
16:52And President Trump has ran for the first time, and now the second time, on this America First platform.
16:58The majority of voters agreed with that approach.
17:02He said before, we get tired of giving massive amounts of money to countries that hate us.
17:07Do you think that cutting USAID is an America First approach?
17:12What would you say to those people that support that?
17:14I feel, well, I think it is not correct.
17:18I think it's the opposite.
17:19I think the stories are being told to distract from the fact that the world's richest man and the United States president are trying to force a tax cut that will benefit the richest people in the United States,
17:35the elite, the super elite and the super wealthy, while taking away from the poorest people around the world.
17:42This is really a case of reverse Robin Hood, and we're seeing it affecting ordinary people here.
17:48As you said, small businesses suffering the consequences, disease prevention that is global and interconnected.
17:56When you cancel research and access to TB treatment in another country and other things, you're doing harm to people everywhere.
18:04And so while ordinary Americans have a right to want more and policies that improve their lives and livelihoods, absolutely.
18:14But this represents less than 1% of the global budget.
18:17We don't see plans that are trying to help ordinary working Americans.
18:21And I was in Georgia last month visiting some partners we work with there, farmers, who were now talking about how their USDA and USAID funding had been cut, supporting their lives and livelihoods.
18:37They had not been paid.
18:39There's arrears in paying farmers, businesses, organizations that have approved grants and have already delivered the work, and they have not been paid.
18:49I don't understand, and it's hard for anyone to explain how this is helpful to any of us and ordinary Americans.
18:58I know that you said your lawsuit's in court right now, but what else are you looking out for next?
19:04Well, we are monitoring the situation to see what happens, what these parent restructuring will bring.
19:14We are continuing to try to work to keep our life-saving programming going, but it's very difficult because of how much everything has been upended.
19:24And there's a reliance on how when we work on clean water and sanitation, it needs to be connected with health and other interventions that are happening in countries.
19:39And so everything is overstretched.
19:41We are trying to do our best to protect lives and livelihoods.
19:46We look at both the causes and consequences of poverty and inequality, and we really are calling on our supporters to take action, to urge the administration and Congress to protect and invest in U.S. foreign assistance because it's better for everyone.
20:01As I said before, I'm saying it again, this situation continues to be developing, and as we see movement with your lawsuit or movement when it comes to USAID, I hope you can come back on and comment on it.
20:14Abby Maxman, thank you so much for your time today.
20:16I really appreciate it.
20:18It is such a pleasure to be with you, and we're so grateful that you're bringing attention to these vitally important issues.