Mysteries Never Revealed: Inside the Seven Thunders Cult - Charles Paisley - Revival History - 316 - video Dailymotion

William Branham Historical Research

Support the show: https://www.patreon.com/branham   Available on Spotify, Google, and Apple Podcasts: https://william-branham.org/podcast   Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962   Come Out of Her My People Vol II: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DNFN2XYR  John and Charles discuss the rise and collapse of one of the most extreme offshoots of the William Branham sect: the Thunders movement. Beginning with Branham’s cryptic references to the “seven thunders,” they explain how the mystery cult mentality embedded in the message led followers to seek hidden meanings and secret paths to “rapturing faith.” Joseph Coleman emerged as the main figure who claimed to have revealed this mystery, tying the seven thunders to the “stature of a perfect man” sermon and promoting a diagram that became central to Thunders churches. His doctrine evolved into a highly structured system involving echoes, ecstatic worship, and bizarre interpretations of Old Testament passages to set prophetic timelines. His methods drew thousands of followers across North America, Europe, the Caribbean, and especially Africa, where figures like Apostle Roscoe continued expanding the movement.  They also detail key figures such as Bob Lambert, who may have originated some Thunders concepts before being murdered in 1973 under mysterious circumstances. The conversation turns to the rise and eventual downfall of Joseph Coleman, touching on financial scandals, failed prophetic timelines, and the authoritarian control exercised by church leaders. As Coleman’s health declined and chaos unfolded—including a scandal involving a cocaine-addicted successor and the imposition of fasting and sleeplessness on church members—the movement fractured. The story concludes with reflections on how the Thunders group followed a long historical pattern of British Israelite prophecy, arbitrary biblical interpretation, and repeated failed predictions, leading to harm, disillusionment, and a cycle of theological recycling that continues today.  00:00 Introduction 01:07 The Mystery Religion and the Seven Thunders Doctrine 06:47 Joseph Coleman’s Rise and Doomsday Predictions 14:50 Power Struggles, Bob Lambert’s Death, and Coleman’s Leadership 22:15 Global Expansion: Europe, Africa, and Apostle Rosco 26:32 Ecstatic Worship and Cultural Influence 28:46 Prophetic Patterns, Old Testament Typology, and British Israelism 36:04 Parallels in Pentecostal History and Roots in Jane Leed 42:00 Collapse of the Movement: Ponzi Schemes, Control, and Final Years 52:11 Legacy of the Thunders Sect and Final Reflections ______________________ – Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham – Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ – Visit the website: https://william-branham.org – Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg  – Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham – Follow on Twitter: https://

Transcript

00:30Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.

00:36I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research

00:41at william-branham.org, and with me I have my co-host, researcher, minister, and friend,

00:47Charles Paisley, the founder of christiangospelchurch.org, and the author of Come Out of Her My People.

00:54Charles, it's good to be back and to talk all things seven thunders. It's a little bit

00:59odd for me when we were talking through the last episode we did together. In the main

01:03sect, we had our own version of what was the divine mysteries that William Branham really

01:09intended to give us but never actually gave us. And we would have people, I've heard ministers

01:15debated, I've even been in like small gatherings of men's groups where they're trying to give

01:21what they think was what he really meant by that, my brother. And we always focused on

01:27what was the mystery behind the seven seals. And it's odd to think about these different

01:33sects as they're spinning off of this, because the whole thing was basically a mystery religion,

01:38like the ancient mystery cults. There's this divine mystery, and if you can just figure it out,

01:44you've got it, my brother. You're going to make it into heaven. And because the leader never really

01:50comes out and says, what is the mystery? Everybody has to try to figure it out. And so while we were

01:56in the main sect, we're scrambling to figure out what was that mystery behind the seven seals. And

02:00he said that he revealed it to us, but he never really revealed anything. What was it? And they're

02:06doing the same thing in the thunders groups. So it's really odd when you think about how these

02:11mystery cults develop and spread and grow and turn into things that never were intended to be in

02:17the first place. Oh, I know what you mean, John, you know, and every branch of the message is this

02:22way. We all just developed over the years, slightly different terminology to talk about it. But it's

02:28all the exact same concept. William Branham convinced everybody that the secret for escaping the doomsday

02:36and going in the rapture was in his seven seal sermons somewhere. Somehow the rapturing faith was in

02:44there. And when he preached the seventh seal, he preached in passing, he talked about the seven

02:49thunders. And I know the sect of the message I come from, quite a few out there, as well as the group

02:54that we're continuing to talk about today, the group of the message called the thunders. They believe the

02:59rapturing faith was specifically in the seven thunders of the seventh seal. And, but William Branham

03:07never gave a clear explanation of what that was never once. And he left his, like I said before, he left

03:17his audiences on the edge of his, their seats, that any minute he was going to tell them the secret of

03:24the thunders, the secret of the rapturing faith, you know, the secret of the mystery of the seven

03:28seals, the final great mystery that was going to let them escape the pent coming doomsday and, you know,

03:34enraptured out of the world and glorified bodies. And everybody had that expectation. And he even

03:41started to say at different points towards the end of his life that he had, in fact, gave them the

03:47thunders. And then other times he said, no, I'm going to, it's going to come in the future. And then

03:51he's, no, I've already given it to you. He kind of whiffled back and forth. And so when he died,

03:57a lot of people were convinced that he had actually given them the thunders because he had said he gave

04:03them the thunders actually went, especially in that question and answer series that he did towards

04:08the end of his life, he said, yeah, or he, they asked him, was the thunders revealed? He said it

04:13was revealed in the sermon on the seventh seal. So Joseph Coleman though, that's what we're talking

04:19about today, the thunders, Joseph Coleman, he developed the unique idea, John, that the seven

04:24thunders were the seven virtues that William Brennan preached in this sermon, the stature of a perfect man.

04:30And across the message, the stature of a perfect man sermon is, is one of, another one of William

04:37Brennan's most famous, most precious of message sermons, John. I'll say personally, and I don't

04:41know about you, but when I was in the message, William Brennan's stature of a perfect man sermon

04:47was my favorite sermon, John. I think maybe everybody had a first sermon favorite. That was my favorite

04:52message sermon actually. And I know that one, I mean, of all of the sermons, I know that one backwards

04:58and forwards, John. And, and every sect of the message, you know, believed what William Brennan

05:04said in that sermon, but only the thunders sect believed it was the seven thunders. Nobody else

05:11believed that. That is a unique belief of their sect of the message. And the, the reason, John,

05:17as I started to mention in our last episode, when we started talking about the thunders, one of the

05:20reasons is, is just counting them. This is one of the reasons a lot of the sects of the message

05:25rejected it. And when William Brennan preached his sermon on the seven thunders, he drew this

05:29diagram up in the church. This is William Brennan's famous pyramid diagram. We could spend

05:37a long time talking about this diagram, but I'm not going to dissect this entire thing or what it

05:42all means. But what I want to point out to you is that as you come up the middle layer of this pyramid,

05:47there is the seven virtues of first Peter chapter one, or rather second Peter chapter one, and you

05:55can count them faith, virtue, knowledge, temperance, patience, godliness, brotherly kindness. Uh-oh,

06:03it's got love at the top, John. It's not seven, it's eight. And this is the, this is like the

06:08problem, John. How can this be, you know, most of the people in the message, when Joseph Coleman come out

06:15this, they're saying, it's not seven, it's eight. So how do you turn the eight virtues into the seven

06:22thunders? It just doesn't quite add up for, for the other sects of the message. And so while they

06:28absolutely love William Brennan's sermon, they're saying, no, this can't be the seven thunders. This

06:33is the eight virtues. And, and they, you know, they, it just doesn't, uh, they don't believe that this

06:39is, um, one of this, this is the seven thunders. And so, but anyways, this is what Joseph Coleman doubled

06:45down on. And this is what led to a lot of his alienation was his absolute insistence that this,

06:51that these seven, these eight virtues were the seven thunders. And as that went on, um, over time,

06:59it really evolved. It did evolve. Like his idea of what the thunders was, was sort of this ever

07:05changing idea. Um, at a certain point in time, um, and I believe it was not long after, you know,

07:11within a year or two that he came up with the idea that the virtues were, um, the thunders. He also

07:17began to come up with the idea that the thunders were echoes. And as I mentioned in our past episode,

07:23Joseph Coleman was the father of quotes preaching. He started the practice of quotes preaching and a

07:28lot of people copied him. And one of the ways that people got, got to the place where they were

07:33copying him was his sermons on that the thunders were echoes. So not only were the thunders,

07:37these virtues, the thunders were also seven echoes and the seven echoes were seven people

07:43echoing the words of the prophet John. And so when they would quotes preach, they were being an echo

07:50of the thunders. And then when they, when they quoted the things that William Branham said about

07:56the seven plus one virtues, they were fulfilling the scriptures on the thunders by echoing what the

08:04prophet said about the virtues. Okay. And so this is, this is how the whole thing starts really

08:10rolling. And it starts to draw lots and lots and lots of people in the message in over time,

08:16several thousand people, um, back, you know, in the, in the early seventies end up getting absorbed

08:21and drawn into this because 1977 is approaching, right? William Branham has said the doomsday is 77.

08:27Everybody back then in the message pretty well is saying 1977 is it, ladies and gentlemen.

08:31And Joseph Coleman is really the only one back at that time who's offering this sort of a concrete

08:38set of steps, you know, follow these steps. You can have the rapturing faith and you can escape with

08:44me in 1977. And that was what Joseph Coleman really was honing into in 1974 when he started teaching, um,

08:54the stature of a perfect man, um, and drawing in a large segment of the early message community,

09:00uh, into that belief with him. And you researchers who are watching and not listening to the audio

09:06only and noticing that image that Charles held up of the stature of the perfect man, you'll be

09:12familiar with it because Chris Reed at Morningstar preached almost an entire sermon that was,

09:19I'm not going to say that he plagiarized Branham, but it was eerily close. I'll just say it like that.

09:24And I don't wreck, I don't remember him mentioning that he had largely taken the entire sum of that

09:31sermon from Branham statements, but in the background as he's preaching the stature of a

09:37perfect man, he's got that same image hanging in the background. And it, again, he doesn't say where

09:42it comes from or anything. And to the audience member who's just sitting there listening, oh my gosh,

09:48Chris Reed has this divine revelation. But to us from the Branham religion, who's seen it before,

09:53well, that's William Branham's stature of a perfect man. Like you, Charles, I grew up and that was one

09:59of my favorite sermons because we were instructed, we had to have rapturing faith or we would be

10:05doomed like the rest of the world. And how do you get there? You have to have the stature of a perfect

10:10man. That's it exactly, John. I mean, this is, for most sects of the message and all of the early

10:17sects of the message, the stature of the perfect, this was the carrot everybody was chasing. Now, not

10:22everybody used the pyramid diagram. Okay. Like my sect of the message basically erased the pyramid

10:29lines. We did the rest of it. Raymond Jackson didn't believe in the pyramid. Okay. He dropped

10:35that belief, but all the rest of it. Yeah. I mean, we absolutely believed it. And William Branham,

10:40we could spend so long talking about this chart. He merged all of this into pyramidology in a really

10:46bizarre way. And Joseph Coleman, you know, honed in on all of the pyramidology stuff and he kept

10:52all of that going. And probably one of the most defining features of a Thunder's church is they

10:59will have this pyramid diagram very prominently displayed in their church. Joseph Coleman's church,

11:07for example, there was a diagram. I bet you, John, that diagram was 20 feet wide by 20 feet tall

11:15in his church. It was massive, this diagram at his church. I think we can get a picture with him

11:22standing in front of it. But all of their churches have this. Bruce Dalton's church,

11:29for example, the one down in Trinidad, he has a pyramid like this, John, attached to the top of

11:35his church. When you walk into the church, you're walking under the giant pyramid. You know,

11:41the message churches of this persuasion worship this pyramid diagram in a really odd way. And it is

11:48always featured very prominently. It's always a pretty good giveaway that you're in a Thunder's

11:53church if you see this diagram really prominently featured. And not that the other sects don't use

11:59it as well here and there, but they don't pay that same level of attention to it as the Thunder's

12:05churches do. Yeah, like you said, it's everywhere in the Branham. It's one of the distinct marks of

12:10Branhamism, but they do seem to enjoy it a lot more than we did in the main sect at these

12:16Thunder's churches. It's weird when you think of the relics. I'm actually working on a research

12:22article and I'm going through some of the relics that we had, not just in Branhamism, but this was

12:26widespread latter rain, some of these relics, because he's teaching these things, Branham is,

12:32in the latter rain movements. And so things like the halo photograph, I don't know if you caught it,

12:37but in my discussions with Chino Ross, he was coming from the hyper charismatic movement,

12:44and he believed that the halo photograph was a real photograph of something supernatural. And he

12:51came to the conclusion that what the man was preaching was not of God. So even if it was

12:57supernatural, he totally rejected the photograph as anything holy. But in the churches, in Branhamism,

13:04they have, often they have the halo photograph on one side of the pulpit and the cloud, the 1963

13:12mystery cloud, and on the other side. That's today in today's world. But think back in latter rain,

13:18whenever everybody in the movement is thinking that this is truly God manifesting himself in the leader

13:25of the latter rain movement, William Branham, and he's giving these things. Well, one of the things he

13:29gives is this stature of the perfect man sermon. So I have no doubt that you're going to find this

13:35all throughout Pentecostalism, probably even in some of the charismatic movements. We definitely

13:41have it in the NAR with Chris Reed, so there's no telling how far and wide that this thing has spread.

13:46So we've mentioned a few times in episodes leading up to this one, a man named Bob Lambert.

13:52And Bob, Robert Lambert, was a man who was living in Connecticut. He's actually from the

13:57Jeffersonville area here, John. He had moved to New York City for a period of time before landing in

14:04Connecticut. And he was in attendance at Anthony Milano's church in New York City. And then later

14:11on, he would attend Joseph Coleman's church in New York City. And he also had started his own small

14:17church in Connecticut. In addition to that, he was doing a lot of the mission work, the early mission

14:23work into the Caribbean. Jamaica, Puerto Rico, Trinidad and Tobago, you know, that area. And

14:30he really is responsible for establishing the earliest message churches in the Caribbean.

14:36And so Bob Lambert is working out of that church with Joseph Coleman and Anthony Milano. And something

14:41strange happens, John. And I don't fully understand this. Probably some of the people who were in the

14:45thunders in the very early days could give us more information than I am able to share and know

14:50about this. But something happened. Anthony Milano, he ended up moving to Arizona with the deity cult and

14:58all those people. And whether he was in the deity cult himself, I'm not sure. But he ended up moving

15:03to Arizona. And before or after that, there was some sort of a power struggle that unfolded there in the

15:11message community in, you know, in New York. And Joseph Coleman and Bob Lambert really struggled for

15:20power, from what I can, from what I understand. And it ends up with Joseph Coleman and Bob Lambert kind

15:26of having a falling out. And some of this stuff about the thunders was starting to develop before they

15:33had their falling out. And some people actually credit Bob Lambert with coming up with the seven

15:39thunders with their idea about it being the statue of a perfect man. I don't know if that's true or

15:45not. But some people will credit Bob Lambert with actually coming up with this concept rather than

15:49Joseph Coleman that we've talked about. And as that all unfolds, something really unusual happens,

15:57John. And in 1973, I believe it was in August or July, Bob Lambert was murdered. And we can share

16:08the newspaper reports about it. But it they never caught the man who murdered him. Whoever it was,

16:15they think it was they, they obviously they pushed him off a cliff is what happened. So they like

16:20whacked him in the head and shoved him off the side of a cliff, John. And his wallet was missing. So you

16:26know, maybe he was mugged. People actually got a bit of a glimpse of the person who did it.

16:33His wife was was not was was not too very far away from him when it happened. And but they never caught

16:41the man who murdered Bob Lambert. And, you know, I'll say it was rumored, John, it was rumored that

16:50that had something to do with his falling out with Joseph Coleman that was going on then and things in

16:56that church. And remember, I mean, Bob Lambert was in bed with criminals, okay, they were former members of

17:02the New York mob in that church. They were Joseph Coleman, we know, in later years, they, his family

17:07was arrested for Ponzi scheme and all that, which we'll talk through all that. These people were all

17:11hardened criminals that Bob Lambert was working with, you know, and I don't know exactly what

17:17happened here. But at the end of the day, somebody murdered Bob Lambert. And when that happened,

17:22Joseph Coleman then rose to prominence. And he is that's the point at which he really became the

17:28preeminent leader of those churches. I would argue before that Bob Lambert was the leader, John,

17:33I would say. And it was actually with his death that Joseph Coleman took over and ended up, you know,

17:40kind of the preeminent guy over these churches in North America, where they had a small following,

17:44and then in the Caribbean, and it grew from there. But that is, that's really interesting. And of course,

17:49I'm not saying that, you know, Joseph Coleman or any of them murdered Bob Lambert. I don't know.

17:53But it was with his murder that that Bob Lambert left, obviously. And Joseph Coleman is now the

18:01undisputed leader with the exit of Anthony Milano, the undisputed leader of the Thunders.

18:06I think the only thing that I'll comment on that is that there is a large sum of money flowing

18:11through these organizations. And there's a reason why I don't go too deep with some subjects.

18:17I agree. And I just, I don't go too far with this myself. So he died, he was murdered. And so as

18:25Joseph Coleman then in 1974 kind of rises up to the top, he then is now going directly to some of

18:33these churches that Bob Lambert had planted. He's preaching the Thunders' message. And there's a bit

18:37of a schism where some people remain loyal to Bob Lambert and his version of the Thunders.

18:44Um, and they break away and they're actually another small sect of the message. That's where

18:49Bruce Dalton's church comes from. We've talked about in Trinidad, uh, with the exposition of

18:53damnable heresies. Um, Bob Lambert's church, I believe his church in Connecticut is still there.

18:59And I believe it might be his son that actually pastors that church today, um, in Connecticut. And

19:05they're, they're, they're separated from the Thunders now. But as Joseph Coleman grows, um,

19:11he's using some of that same, that same, um, initial work that Bob Lambert had helped build up

19:18with his initial overseas, um, churches. Um, here in the United States, there was only really,

19:24I believe three churches that joined the Thunders in North America. There was a church in Montreal,

19:30um, and that church in Montreal, let me talk about that one first. It actually was led by

19:35Freddie Bradford, um, the man who I mentioned had been in the faith assembly sector originally,

19:40but had molested children and one of them killed himself. Well, he ended up moving to Montreal

19:47after, you know, the, some of his child molestation ways got discovered. He moved to Montreal, started

19:53another message church and joined the Thunders. And so he brought that church into the Thunders,

19:57John. And let me tell you a story about this too. So just so people, again, I think some of

20:04these stories are illustrative. So Joseph Coleman went to Montreal, you know, is, is, is coming up

20:11and becoming friends with Freddie Bradford. And in 1978, Joseph Coleman holds a convention in Montreal

20:17at Freddie Bradford's church. And Joseph Coleman, basically in the middle of a sermon, John,

20:25he says, the Lord has revealed to me, you are a child molester and you were molesting such and such

20:36boy in this church. And then they grab, you know, they drag him to the front of the church and Joseph

20:41Coleman makes a huge, massive, um, look at me. I have the power of discernment out of this. Of course,

20:49Joseph Coleman didn't tell him, Oh, he's been molesting kids for years. He's already been thrown

20:52out of all these other churches for. So, and he makes this big to do out of it. And, and Freddie

20:57Bradford gets kicked out of the Thunders more or less as well. But again, no one ever turned him

21:01into the police, right? Nothing like that ever happened. But that was a really big thing that

21:06Joseph Coleman did that kind of grabbed a lot of those people up there. And, and actually he ended

21:11up with a fairly sizable following in Canada after that. Um, he ended up with another church in New

21:16Brunswick, the fellowship with him. Um, besides that in the United States, there's really only two

21:21really notable churches that took the Thunders with him, uh, Tommy Dillard's church in Fort Wayne,

21:26which was a, you know, it was a good size church. And then, uh, he had another church he'd planted

21:30in around Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. And so those were his churches here in North America. But the,

21:35the bulk of the Thunders following was overseas. Um, in Europe, um, I had mentioned before how there

21:43was a UPC missionary that accidentally planted some message churches in Europe. Well, Tommy Dillard

21:50introduced Joseph Coleman to those churches and Joseph Coleman starts traveling to Europe

21:56and visiting those message churches and vice versa. They start visiting him and you have a sizable

22:01portion of the European message community joins the Thunders. Um, there was a number of, of small

22:06and medium sized churches, maybe about 25 altogether. Um, and they all joined the, in, um, probably the,

22:13the, um, anchor church over there in Europe was a man named Donat Junkery. I believe they were in

22:19Bruges, Belgium. That was kind of the anchor church of the Thunders community in Europe. Uh,

22:24but they were important, a very important fundraising ground for Joseph Coleman. A lot of his fundraising

22:30came from the European message community. And then besides that, the, the largest segment overall

22:36of Thunders people was in Africa, John, like the main sect of the message. And one man in particular

22:42in Africa rose to the forefront, John, and it is the very famous message apostle Roscoe. The apostle

22:52Roscoe, John, is a well-known message apostle in the Thunders. And the apostle Roscoe, I'm telling you,

23:00John, have you, I don't know if you've ever heard the apostle Roscoe preach. Uh, now Joseph Coleman was a

23:05fantastic preacher, really. I mean, I think that as far as a preacher with the style to draw people in,

23:10in the message, Joseph Coleman is probably second only to William Branham with his preaching talent.

23:16I'll just, you know, to draw people in and hypnotize them and everything. I'm telling you,

23:21the apostle Roscoe is scary, John. And I mean, you just want to run for your life from this guy,

23:27but he is got a massive following in Africa. Thousands of people follow him in Africa. He's

23:32got a large community there. And in a lot of ways today, Joe, the apostle Roscoe is probably

23:38Joseph Coleman's truest successor leading the largest branch of the Thunders today. But

23:43anyways, yeah, the apostle Roscoe rose up the ranks in this period of time. You know,

23:47it was an apostle along with Joseph Coleman in the, uh, in the Thunders. But those are kind of

23:53the main centers of the Thunders religion. All I can think about when I hear the apostle

23:58Roscoe is Roscoe P. Coltrane, who interestingly enough, hails from where Charles is from,

24:05the Accord in Indiana. Not many people know that, uh, that Dukes of Hazard history.

24:10But what's really even funnier is if you think about how the message spread and it spread very

24:17heavily in Africa, I'm told by former members of the message cult that in parts of Africa,

24:23you'll find huge stadiums filled with Branhamites rivaling what William Branham himself had during the

24:30latter rain years in America. And probably I would say much larger than he had whenever

24:36he was actually in Africa. And to think that, you know, I can't say that all sect,

24:43I can't say one sect is better than another in the message, but some of them like the Thunders

24:48movement are far more extremist. So you have these extremist sects that are going into these developing

24:55nations and sometimes into, you know, parts of Africa that are fully developed, spreading the

25:02worst breed of Branhamism possible into these places. And that's what it is producing in these

25:08other countries.

25:08Oh, yeah. James Best is right from here in Harrison County. That's correct, John. I actually have a

25:13painting of his. Do you know he became a famous painter in later years?

25:16Oh, yeah. Yeah. Anyways, you know, yeah, so you're right. I mean, what what is over in Africa is

25:28every branch of the message has a presence there. But a lot of the they've evolved a lot of them in

25:34ways that no longer really match the core of the message here in Jeffersonville and, you know, in some

25:42of the original message centers, some of them are quite different over there. And you are very,

25:46very right in saying that the Thunders is one of the most radical sects of the message. They are

25:51very radical. The and and one of the things that I think is another defining characteristic of the

25:56Thunders sect is is they are very ecstatic in their worship. You know, I think we have played a

26:03clip of Joseph Coleman in our last our last episode. But the entire sermon, the people are having ecstatic

26:09worship, right? The whole time he's preaching, it's ecstatic worship all the way through the sermon.

26:14And when he preaches, you'll hear him say, like, every three minutes, you may be seated. You may be

26:18seated. You may be he's saying that because, you know, he'll say two or three sentences and then the

26:22people will have a massive ecstatic outburst. And then that'll cool down. You may be seated. You know,

26:28he's letting them, you know, cool back down after. But it's it's just like that. You know, I had talked to

26:34like witnesses. One one of the people that I interviewed, John, when I wrote my book,

26:39come out of my people volume two. He he described to me how he remembered when the apostle Roscoe first

26:47came to Germany and how he how they were teaching the German churches how to have ecstatic experiences.

26:53And just it's it's something else. A lot of that influence to have ecstatic experience came from

27:00Roscoe. Actually, I believe in in some of the the groups there. I don't know a whole lot about

27:05Roscoe's background, what he was before he joined the message. But he was in the message before he

27:10joined the Thunders. And my guess is he was probably recruited in through Sidney Jackson's efforts in the

27:17early 70s. And then he had joined up with Joseph Coleman by 1976 for sure. I don't know precisely

27:25what date he came into contact, but he was definitely there by 1976. And Joseph Coleman back then,

27:31they were really big into the 1977 doomsday date. I mean, the whole most all the message was my sect

27:39was a little less so, I think, than the others. But most was into the 77 being the end of the world,

27:46John. And they had, you know, the huge rash of weddings in 1976 and 1977 in order for people to,

27:54you know, meet the doomsday. There was all kinds of people who got married in December 1977.

27:58They're only going to be married for 30 days, John. But, you know, they were trying to get

28:02in under the radar. And, you know, here we are all these years later and we're still here and

28:06they're still married. But there was a whole lot of that stuff happening. And when that fell through,

28:13when 1977 fell through, Joseph Coleman, that's the point in time, he started to start to come up with

28:21his own timeline, his own mechanism for predicting the end. You know, the main sect started to go with

28:28Billy Paul won't be an old man. And my sect of the message, they started to develop their two-day

28:32stuff. And each sect of the message started to do its own doomsday ideas, unique new doomsday ideas,

28:38after set 1977 came and went. Well, what Joseph Coleman did, John, was very,

28:45I think to outsiders this is going to sound very unusual, but he's actually got a method to the

28:52madness. And I want to just explain what he did and then explain the method to the madness. What he

28:59did, when 1977 went, he went into the book of Leviticus chapter 25, okay? And he started to come up

29:09with the idea that Leviticus chapter 25 is the pattern for determining the end of the world, John,

29:16okay? And if you read through that chapter, there's like this, you know, it's talking about the jubilees

29:24and these, you know, so many years and the new rest. Anyways, what he did there is he said 1974

29:32was the start of the Thunder's ministry, okay? And then he says this chapter calls for a six

29:38years of planting and a seventh year of rest. So when he gets to 1980, he says the six years are

29:44fulfilled and now we're going into the year of rest. And again, he's using this to start

29:51basically typing or patterning the way his movement is going. And so the implication is 1981 is the new

29:57year for the rapture, right? And so he starts doing this sort of thing. And of course, 1981 comes and

30:04goes and nothing happens either, right? And so then he finds a way to extend the pattern again. Okay,

30:08now we're going into this phase and then we're going into that phase. And when you get to,

30:12um, when you get to, I think the year was 1991. Um, anyways, you're 17 years past 1974. When you get 17

30:21years after that, I think it was 1991, just the math in my head real quick. Then he says, oh, we're still

30:26here. Um, and then he goes to start looking at Joseph in the book of Genesis. And he says,

30:32Joseph got his coat of many colors in his 17th year. This is the 17th year after the revelation

30:39of the thunders. Therefore, we are now entering into the fullness of the, of the message. And we're

30:44all going to get on our coat. That's going to lead us out in the rapture. But this is the pattern,

30:49right? You go in the old Testament, you find a, a number somewhere that you can tie to something

30:56and bring you up to something, right? And say, and this is what we're doing right now.

31:00This is the program. We're like Joseph in our 17th year. We're like the Jubilee. We're in the sixth

31:06year and now it's the seventh year. This is what Joseph Coleman did year in and year out from 1977,

31:13really up until the year he died. And he just kept moving the goalposts, moving the goalposts,

31:18moving the goalposts and using these patterns from the old Testament to constantly update his forecast.

31:25Now, as I describe that, you know, it sounds very arbitrary and very bizarre, doesn't it? To do

31:32that. It sounds very arbitrary and bizarre to do that. And Joseph Coleman did it in a way that was

31:36somewhat more extreme than the other groups of the message did it. But what I want to point out is

31:43that method that he followed is actually a latter rain method. And that method itself actually goes back

31:51to British Israelism. This is what had been happening in this ideology all the way back to

31:57John Alexander Dowie and before into the early days of British Israelism. And this is one of

32:01the defining features of an ideology that has evolved from the British Israel influence.

32:07they just go into the Old Testament. They pick any random series of events in the Old Testament.

32:14And they say, yes, this is talking about right now. Yes, Joseph's code of many colors and the 17 years

32:21is talking about us. And now 17 years later, here we are. And thus, it means it's the end of days,

32:28right? They would do this with all kinds of random things and use this to just come up with

32:32all kinds, you know, whatever bizarre idea you could come up with, John, you can go back and

32:38you can fit it into these patterns in the Old Testament. And you pick it Gideon's army, or you

32:45could go, you know, to Jephthah, you could talk about Samuel, David and the Goliath, anything like

32:51that. You can go back there. I've heard preachers go, you know, David and Jonathan and pull stuff out of

32:56that. All through the Old Testament, just anywhere there's numbers, anywhere there's a story, they'll

33:02use that to make a projection, say this is going to happen. And it almost always is tied to when we

33:07get to the other side of this, this thing's going to happen in the church. And here's the thing we

33:11need to do to get there. And this other thing is going to be happening in Israel at the same time.

33:16And they bundle it all up together and they make this incredibly bizarre, arbitrary prediction

33:23out of it. But then they'll say, but it's all in the Bible. See, Joseph got his coat of many colors

33:28at year 17. And, and that sort of a pattern is, is, happens across this ideology, John, just in

33:35varying ways. And you see the same sort of thing happening in the NAR of the present day. A lot of

33:40them do the same thing, this exact same methodology. They just, some of it sounds more plausible than

33:46others is all it is. Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the

33:52progression of modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter reign, charismatic and other

33:58fringe movements into the new apostolic reformation? You can learn this and more on William Branham

34:04Historical Research's website, william-branham.org. On the books page of the website, you can find the

34:11compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon, and others, with

34:18links to the paper, audio, and digital versions of each book. You can also find resources and

34:25documentation on various people and topics related to those movements. If you want to contribute to

34:31the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the contribute button at the top. And as always, be sure

34:37to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or watching. On behalf of

34:43William Branham Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support. Whenever people today who are

34:49in these movements hear that somebody's giving a date of the end or putting together timelines,

34:57if the person, if the leader who's doing it is not in their sect, they look at it and cry foul. This is,

35:03no, that's not right. You can't do that. The Bible says no man knows the day or the hour.

35:08But while it's happening within the sect, it turns into this supernatural thing where the guy has been

35:15divinely inspired and, oh, he's a man of God, my brother. And this pattern is not limited to the

35:21message. As far back as I can study, and I've went back a long ways, you find key figures who were in

35:29what developed into the Pentecostal charismatic movement doing the exact same thing. Frank Sanford was

35:36giving dates. And there's one episode where he newspapers talk about he and his entire followers

35:43went up to the rooftops on a certain minute of the day, because that was the minute when the rapture

35:48was supposed to happen. And they didn't want their bodies to be torn as they went through the roofs.

35:53You go to John Alexander Dowie sect, he's the same thing. And Charles Fox Parham, who founded, you know,

36:00who not founded, but he was probably considered to be the father of modern Pentecostalism visited both

36:06of those places, then he started doing it. And as you know, you can go forward, you can go backwards,

36:11they're all doing this thing. And in the end, what purpose does it serve? They could be right,

36:16they could be wrong. Whenever their predictions fail, it's just dismissed and forgotten as though,

36:23well, that wasn't spiritual, that must have been from, from the man, he was just a human. But no,

36:29they keep, they keep doing it over and over again. And again, if it's a leader within your specific

36:34sect, you view it as godly and God inspired. But when it's outside of your sect, like this Coleman thing,

36:42we in the main sect would have called him just a hypocrite for doing this, while we had people in

36:48the main sect that were doing the same thing. Correct, John. And you know, what do all those

36:52people you mentioned have in common? Frank Sanford, John Alexander Dowie, Charles Fox Parham,

36:58what do all they have in common? They were all British Israelites. Yeah. Okay. That is,

37:03that is the common linkage. And that is where this method comes from, that they followed. And the

37:11reason they could do that, they could take the types and stuff about Israel and apply it to themselves,

37:15because they thought they were Israel. And this is, this is where it comes from. And this has

37:20happened in this ideology for generations now. You can trace this all the way back to the early

37:24British Israelite prophets of the late 1700s and early 1800s doing the same thing. And they just kind

37:30of this arbitrary thing where, yes, Joseph called, Joseph got his coat of many colors in 17,

37:36and when he was 17 years old, and just using that as an example. And now we're in the 17th year,

37:41therefore it means we're about to get our great rapturing coats. You know, you can find this sort

37:46of a thing happening all the way back to the very beginning of this ideology. And the people while

37:52on the outside looking in, this seems incredibly arbitrary for people to do this. Within the ideology,

37:58it's not. This is what they've been prone to do. They are prone to the history of this ideology is

38:03someone saying, the Holy Spirit came to me, an angel came to me, I had a vision. And in my vision,

38:10it was revealed to me that this type in Exodus chapter 21, is there an Exodus chapter 21, right?

38:17Exodus chapter 21 applies to the last days, and it means this, this, this, and this. That's how it

38:21happens. They're all saying that this supernatural thing happened and revealed to them the hidden

38:26understanding of this pattern in the Old Testament applies to them and their followers in the last day.

38:32And that has been the pattern of this movement for generations. And just each one, their angel,

38:39quote, unquote, angel, vision, whatever, give them a little bit of a different idea. And a lot of times,

38:44if you actually start digging, you'll find, oh, wait, no, they're copying this from someone who came

38:48before them. And you can trace a lot of it, you know, back to the very early days of this ideology.

38:53And they're just continuing it forward. But what I want to point out to you too, John, is you don't

38:59find people in the, for example, the Darby system of dispensationalism doing this. This is not a feature

39:05of the Darby system. This is not a feature of a more typical dispensationalism that you would find

39:11in Baptist church or Presbyterian or places like that. Even, even mainstream Pentecostalism doesn't do

39:17that anymore, John. Where you find that is the churches that are really descended in some way

39:23or another from this British Israel influence that then came into the latter rain. That's what they

39:27were doing when the latter rain started, John. It was George Warnock, right? What did he do?

39:32He went to the Old Testament. He says, oh, hey, the Feast of Tabernacles is talking about the

39:36manifested sons of God at the end of days. It's this great revelation. It's the same thing. This is

39:41exactly what they've been doing all along. And the people who have lived their whole lives in this

39:46ideology, they just naturally expect this is the way it's supposed to work. Yeah, God is supposed

39:50to reveal to our leader that something in the Old Testament has this hidden pattern that's going to

39:55tell them about the end of days. And yeah, this is just carried on for year after year. So I think

40:00that's a wrist, an important thing to point out here. And I think talking about how Joseph Coleman did

40:06it is just very illustrative of how it even carried on after William Branham was gone.

40:10Yeah, I agree. These tactics are nothing new. And if you study any of the people who I've mentioned

40:16from Dowie to Sanford to, you know, you can go back to Jane lead, who I think we've mentioned

40:22quite a few times on the converging apostasy. Everybody's doing the same thing. If you can

40:27bind the modern events to the Old Testament, in some vague way, you can basically take the Old

40:35Testament and make it seem to come alive to the people. And by doing so, you're rewriting the

40:41narrative of the Old Testament. They're taking modern events and they're combining it with

40:46biblical scripture. And they're trying to say that the what we're seeing in modern times was

40:51actually written in this in mystery in these Old Testament verses. And so that's why I say this is

40:58a mystery cult that they have created. But again, they're rewriting the narrative of the Old

41:04Testament. And in the end, what happens when you do that, you end up with a different Bible.

41:08You're exactly right. And Jane lead seems to be the oldest, farthest back that I know I have been

41:16able to find the origins of some of these concepts. She does appear to be her, the Philadelphian society

41:24appears to be where the initial concepts for some of this came from. You know, the, the idea that a

41:31rapturing faith was in seven thunders and the seven seals that comes from Jane lead in the early 1700s,

41:37all the way back to the very early days of this ideology. I mean, this has been in this ideology

41:42from the beginning, these concepts and yeah, you know, patterning something in Israel and pulling

41:46it forward. Jane lead's ideology got absorbed into early British Israelism all the way back in the

41:53very early days of this ideology. Richard Brothers and some of the early British Israelite prophets

41:59absorbed her teachings into it. And it just passed down in the ideology to the present day. And

42:06it just goes through these iterations where another prophet says, Oh, this was my revelation.

42:12And then, you know, that all falls apart. And then the next prophet says, Oh wait, no,

42:15it's my revelation. And then it goes down and the next prophet says, No, wait, it's my revelation.

42:19And they never, you know, who's on first. No, it wasn't. You guys are just recycling and evolving

42:25what the prior guy taught you. And if you keep going farther than that, you keep finding the guy before

42:30you that you, you know, turned out to be dirt bag. And there's a reason you didn't tell us you got it

42:34from him. Right. That's the truth. It really is the truth of how it works.

42:39It reminds you of a bunch of kids in kindergarten, man. They're all fighting with each other. And

42:44the teacher's just standing back looking, I can't believe these kids are acting like this.

42:49I know, right? So Joseph Coleman got crazier and crazier with time, John.

42:53By the time you come up to 2001, Joseph Coleman is basically telling his followers that he is a

43:00manifested son of God, that God is veiled in his flesh. Let me read you a quote. This is from

43:06Joseph Coleman's 2001 sermon, September the 16th. The title of it is The New York City Ministry

43:12Explained. Joseph Coleman says, Get this prophecy to the recorder about Joseph. He's talking about

43:18himself. He will be 45 years behind my word by a revelation of who I am. If you do the math,

43:24that takes you back to when he first met William Branham, 45 years from 2001. He will be 45 years

43:31behind my word by a revelation of who I am. I will be veiled in his skin and known to none,

43:38but to whom I reveal myself. And then Joseph Coleman says, That is why I am here. Okay. So Joseph Coleman

43:46is basically, you know, going into full on blasphemy at the end of his ministry. He's claiming to be

43:53God veiled in human flesh. You know, he's going down the same route that really that William Branham

43:57had went down at the very end of his life. And things started to go really crazy for their church.

44:07There's a lot more in my book about them than I, you know, we're going to talk about in this podcast,

44:11but in a nutshell, um, things started to go into decline for Joseph Coleman. As they got crazier

44:17and crazier, some of the people broke away, like Tommy Dillard kind of backed away and started to come

44:22back more towards the main sec. A number of the groups started to back away as he got increasingly

44:27crazy. Um, but he held on a lot to his European following. He held on a lot to his African and his

44:34Caribbean following. And as you come to the end of his life, John, this is a really interesting story.

44:42So Joseph Coleman started to get paranoid and there was a man named Frank Cronkite. And that's actually,

44:49um, a relation of mine. And Frank Cronkite was for a lot of years, a very prominent preacher in the

44:56Thunders, along with, you know, Joseph Coleman, um, Orlando Hunt, the Apostle Roscoe, Tommy Dillard,

45:03um, Donna Jonquerie. These were all prominent ministers in the Thunders. Well, Frank Cronkite,

45:11Joseph Coleman gets the idea that Frank Cronkite is trying to overthrow him basically.

45:16And Frank Cronkite is, he was the pastor of a church in New Brunswick, and he ends up

45:21more or less pastoring the most important church in the fellowship in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania,

45:26you know, after Coleman's church. And Coleman gets paranoid and he goes to Harrisburg to throw

45:30him out of the church, John. And so Joseph Coleman travels to Harrisburg. He has his big meetings.

45:36And as Frank Cronkite is, is, is there, he just, you know, you know how it is in the message. You

45:41know, you get ripped up one side and down the other. Well, in the middle of this, Joseph Coleman has a

45:46stroke in the platform, John. Um, he strokes out right in the middle of his sermon. Um, and of course,

45:53you know, that everyone rushed to his defense, you know, and how terrible, you know, Frank Cronkite

45:59had been to cause his stroke. Obviously it was his fault, huh? Anyway, from there, things just went

46:05downhill for Joseph Coleman. His health failed a whole lot. Um, he, he gradually stopped preaching

46:11from, from 2009, he more or less stopped preaching, uh, up until he died. I believe he died in 2012.

46:17And he, he just stroke after stroke left him debilitated. He got, I believe he had some sort

46:23of mental illness that really started to hit him hard in the last years of his life.

46:27And in those years, a minister came from Montreal and he came down to his church and started to, um,

46:37basically make his way in to take over as pastor at the church there in, um, New York City.

46:44And the reason he was able to take over so easy was because prior to that, Joseph's fam,

46:49Joseph Coleman's family and some of the senior leaders there had all been arrested and put in

46:54prison for the Ponzi scheme. Okay. They had been, you know, if everybody, you know,

46:59if you don't know about that, you can look into it, but essentially Joseph Coleman's family was running a

47:05company called Jadis Capital, which was soliciting

47:08to get people's retirement savings and they would invest it and make everybody rich.

47:15And it turned out they were just stealing all their money. Um, and of course they all got,

47:18you know, they ended up, some of them arrested, went to jail. So there's this huge turmoil unfolding in

47:23the last years of Joseph Coleman's life. And this new preacher comes to town from Montreal and they

47:28let him more or less start taking over the church while Joseph Coleman's health is deteriorating.

47:33Um, kind of as his lieutenant while Joseph Coleman is sick. And he just, things start to go crazy

47:42in the thunders, John, at that point, you know, I've talked to some different people that were there

47:46through when all that stuff happened, but he's, this guy started to, um, he started to stop the

47:52people from eating. If Joseph Coleman was sick and couldn't eat, he would tell the people,

47:56you may not eat. You must pray for Joseph Coleman. If Joseph Coleman was sick and couldn't sleep,

48:00he told, you can't sleep tonight. You've got to stay. You've got to pray for Joseph Coleman.

48:04And he kept this stuff going, John. And as he did all this, Joseph Coleman, um,

48:12health is getting worse and worse and worse. And he goes to Joseph Coleman's house. He convinces

48:16Joseph Coleman to basically, if you want to be healed, Joseph Coleman, you've got to quit taking

48:21all your medicine, which of course we know what that's going to do to him, right? He's going to kill him.

48:26And so he convinces Joseph Coleman he must quit taking all of his medication. And he has this big

48:30prophecy that on a certain date, Joseph Coleman is going to, um, be gloriously restored and he'll

48:39come to church on that day fully healed and give everybody their glorified bodies and they will all

48:43leave in the rapture, okay? This is what this guy sets up. And they're all, you know, convinced that

48:48this is going to happen. Um, and what actually ends up happening, John, is somehow the health,

48:53the, a doctor comes to check on Joseph Coleman and finds out he's been taken off all his medication.

48:59And they call the authorities, okay? And the authorities come and, and take Joseph Coleman to

49:05the hospital. And while they do, this guy who's taken over the church basically gets in a fight

49:10with the paramedics and everything, trying to stop them from taking Joseph Coleman to the hospital.

49:15And it's all just this massive, ugly unfolding. I mean, John, I mean, it's burning down around him,

49:21right? And it's really sad though too, because I mean, people were,

49:27people were very badly harmed through all this throughout the thunders, John. I mean,

49:33the thunders people have had it harder just about than most of the rest of the sex. So they're

49:39right up there and having it among the worst of the sex of the message with the things that have

49:43happened to those poor people. But as, as that happens, they end up throwing this man out of the

49:50church and they found out he was a cocaine addict. And apparently they knew it all along. So they

49:56turned the church over to cocaine addict, John. Wow.

49:59I mean, and then Joseph Coleman eventually, you know, dies in 2012. I mean, it, it just,

50:05between that and the Ponzi scheme and everything else, the, the heart of the thunders collapses

50:10and fell, fell apart, you know, in the early two thousands.

50:14And there you have the mess of the message. You know, in the main sect, we would discount all of

50:21this and say, well, they went into error because they went astray from William Branham's true

50:25teachings. And yet the whole cult exists. The whole sect exists because the teachings were so off of the

50:33Bible and so extra biblical that they were trying, they literally were trying to figure out what was

50:38William Branham's mystery because he said he told it to us. And so they were doing, in some ways,

50:44I would say that they were probably more true of a Branhamite than the main sect because they were

50:49trying to figure out, well, he told us what, what it was. Now we've got to figure out what it is.

50:55So they were a more true Branham follower, I would say than the main sect. And all of it is an error.

51:02If you start with an error, anything that is produced from that error will also be an error.

51:07And in this case, in some other cases, it will be a greater error than it began,

51:12than it started with.

51:13I know that the Thunders is, is one of the most unique sects of the message out there. And they're

51:18very, very dedicated to their beliefs. I mean, they're very dedicated. A lot of people

51:25was able to leave the message in, you know, in the years around Joseph Coleman's death,

51:29because the turmoil and the chaos was enough to wake quite a few people up. But a lot of them ended

51:35up just going to other sects of the message, while some of them did manage to escape.

51:41You know, as, as a lot of it imploded, you end up with Joseph Coleman's followers kind

51:47of shattering into several different groups. But the most, the most dominant faction of his

51:53followers, I would say that today, the Apostle Roscoe is the kind of the preeminent leader of the

52:01dominant faction of his followers. And they're probably the truest branch of the Thunders' message

52:07out there today. One last thing I will mention too. So they referred to themselves as the Thunders'

52:13inspiration. And the reason they called themselves that was they believed that, like all most other

52:19branches of the message, that Jesus Christ had come back in some vague way in 1963. And they believed that

52:26they had received that whatever coming of Christ, you know, in them. I think Joseph Coleman, by the end,

52:33more or less thought it was him. And they believe that gave them a special ability to have an inspiration

52:43of the Holy Spirit, and a special inspiration for divine revelation, because they alone really

52:49understood what the Thunders were, right? Quote, unquote, understood what the Thunders were. And so the

52:54Thunders' inspiration was more or less the way that they indicated that their leaders alone had the

53:03divine inspiration, the divine power to reveal these mysteries and to take people into the rapture.

53:09And so at the end of the day, that is what all of this was pointing to, John. All this was

53:14chased. They were all chasing this mysterious rapturing faith to take them into the rapture at the end of

53:21days. And unfortunately, like so many message groups, Joseph Coleman's group was just the first

53:27one to do this. This pattern of coming up with this crazy idea of whatever this rapturing faith is,

53:33whatever these Thunders are, and then going down a path and doing a whole bunch of crazy, bizarre things.

53:38This is repeated over and over and over and over in all kinds of sects of the message. Most of them

53:43aren't as big or as popular as Joseph Coleman's became, but this is a common thing that's happened

53:48across all kinds of sects of the message. And it all goes back to William Branham leaving this

53:54unfinished explanation of what the Seven Thunders were when he died.

53:59It's such a mess. I was sitting here trying to think, well, what do I say to this?

54:04There's nothing else to say. This is a mess. This is a big mess. And like I said earlier,

54:09this is a mess that was produced from the error that was created from the beginning.

54:13And I, you know, as we've mentioned briefly and hinted at, that mess didn't start with William

54:20Branham. It started long before him. Like you, I think the earliest I have seen the mess is Jane

54:25Leed. But I can assure you, based on the patterns that I see as it progresses through time from her,

54:31she didn't get it new and fresh. She probably developed it from people before her. And quite honestly,

54:39you can take a lot of this and trace it all the way back to the Gnostics. The Gnostics were taking

54:45the mystery cults of old, combining it with Christianity and creating something new that

54:50wasn't Christian, but use the name Christian with it. And that's essentially what this was

54:56from the Thunders group, to the main sect, to your sect, to the latter rain. Everything that was produced

55:02from this was produced from error. So anyway, we can say a lot more about this and I think we'll

55:08just wrap this up, but thank you so much for doing this. Yeah, John, I mean, there's so much

55:13interesting stuff there. I mean, and you can, you're right, you can talk for hours and hours

55:17and hours about this. You know, like Jane Leed, for example. Like I am unaware of anyone before Jane

55:23Leed who had the idea that the rapturing faith, seven thunders contain the mystery to go in.

55:29And like, and I'm pretty well versed in Gnosticism. I don't believe that concept's in Gnosticism

55:33either. But the underlying premises, which could have got her there, you know, certainly were.

55:38And, you know, I'm always very cautious until I can actually lay my fingers on sources and see.

55:43I'm kind of cautious to, you know, to say just where stuff comes from. But certainly,

55:50you can connect the dots person to person all the way back to Jane Leed. I'm unaware of how to connect

55:54it any further back than her, though, at this time. And some stuff might come out again in the future

55:58that might help us to do that a little bit better. But yeah, I mean, it's so sad with the

56:04thunders. The thunders is one of the, you know, really a tragedy tale in the message. If you look

56:10at what happened with them and really the great harm and fallout. I mean, so many people were harmed by

56:15these people. There was all kinds of families that were absolutely robbed blind. I mean, absolutely

56:19robbed blind. Their life savings stolen from them by these guys. There are people who are dead,

56:24killed by this movement of thunders. There's child molesters on the loose that they never turned in,

56:29that they knew stuff about. You know, on and on and on it goes. And lots of people gave the best years

56:34of their life to the thunders movement, only to be thrown away like trash by Joseph Coleman and other

56:41people in the movement. It's just so sad and unfortunate, the things that happened with them. And so,

56:47yeah. And one last thing too, before we go, John, I know there are, I interviewed a fair number of

56:52thunders people before I wrote that chapter of the book. And I would love just to see more

56:56interviews from thunders people on the podcast. So I just throw out there, if anyone out there in

57:00the thunders wants to interview and maybe share, I'm sure they have, could give a more detailed and

57:06even better explanation of things than you or I can, since they came from the movement themselves.

57:11Yeah. I mean, reach out. I'm sure John would love to do an interview with you and just share

57:15more information about the goings on inside the thunders movement. Absolutely. Well, if you've

57:21enjoyed our show and you want more information or you want to share your story with us, you can

57:25check us out on the web. You can find us at william-branham.org and christiangospelchurch.org.

57:31For more about the history of William Branham and the healing revivals, you can read Come Out of

57:35Her My People. For more about the dark side of the new apostolic reformation, you can read Weaponized

57:41Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR, both available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.

58:11Yeah.

58:14Mm.

58:15Yeah.

58:17Yeah.

58:25Yeah.

58:27Yeah.

58:33Ah.

Mysteries Never Revealed: Inside the Seven Thunders Cult - Charles Paisley - Revival History - 316

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