India will buy 26 Rafale M fighter jets for the Navy in a deal worth over Rs 63,000 crore. The jets will be deployed on INS Vikrant, boosting maritime strength and mid-air refuelling capabilities.
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00:00Hello and a very warm welcome to a special edition of Battle Cry, I'm Gaurav Savan.
00:23On this special broadcast, we focus on a big jump in Indian Navy's firepower.
00:30We talk about the Rafale Marines.
00:33The Narendra Modi government-led Cabinet Committee on Security has just cleared a 63,887 crore rupee deal with France
00:43for the direct acquisition of 26 Rafale Marine fighter jets for the Indian Navy.
00:48The Rafale Marines will fly from the decks of India's first indigenous aircraft carrier, that's INS Vikran,
00:55and of course also from INS Vikramaditya.
00:58This is a government-to-government deal.
01:01It includes 22 single-seater fighter jets, 4 twin-engine trainers,
01:07then it includes the weapons, the simulators, crew training,
01:10and 5 years of performance-based logistics support.
01:15The Defence Minister of France is expected to come to India
01:19and then there will be the signing of the inter-governmental agreement
01:23with deliveries slated between the 37th and the 65th month once the contract is inked.
01:30So, all these 26 Rafale Marines are expected to be in India by 2031.
01:36There are several advantages, experts say, of the Rafale Marines.
01:40Both the Indian Navy and the Indian Air Force will be flying the Rafales.
01:45The Rafale Marine shares between 80% as some argue or 90% as some analysts say,
01:52commonality when it comes to components with the Indian Air Force that flies 36 Rafale fighter jets.
01:58And this would help streamline logistics, maintenance and training.
02:02It would reduce long-term costs.
02:04For example, spares, infrastructure, training, expertise that are already in place with the Indian Air Force.
02:12IAF Rafale maintenance facilities will be able to support the Indian Navy fleet,
02:17enhancing op efficiency and interoperability.
02:21So, you have 36 plus 22 of these Rafales or 26 of these Rafales in all
02:26that can operate together if there is a requirement.
02:29Then, Navy says that there is a proven carrier capability of the Rafale Marines
02:35because it's been designed for a short take-off but arrested recovery, stovar operations.
02:41The Rafale M analyst's argue is optimized for Indian Navy carrier-based operations.
02:47It has reinforced landing gear, a tail hook and that jump-strut nose wheel for ski jump take-offs.
02:53It's undergone successful trials at INS Hansa.
02:55That's the Indian Navy's show-based test facility in Goa.
03:00Now, there are reports that whether it's compatibility with Indian carrier decks,
03:05it's completely compatible.
03:07Let's now take a look at the evolution of Indian Navy's fighter jets
03:13because Indian Navy has tremendous experience in flying of aircraft carriers.
03:20A journey that started with British-built warbirds to cutting-edge Omni-roll fighters today.
03:27So, first up, what did the Indian Navy fly first?
03:30I want to take you through history.
03:33The Hawker Seahawk, India's first jet fighter for the Indian Navy,
03:37operated from INS Vikrant, the original INS Vikrant, in the 1960s.
03:42It retired in 1983.
03:44Next came the Elysee aircraft, an anti-submarine warfare aircraft also operated from onboard INS Vikrant.
03:54It served the Indian Navy for close to four decades, 1960s to 2000.
03:59Then came the iconic Sea Harrier.
04:02These British-made aircraft, again, were V-Stall, a virtual take-off and landing.
04:08Capable of that and they operated from onboard INS Virat.
04:11It was the Navy's frontline fighter from 1983 till it was phased out in 2016.
04:19Currently, the Indian Navy flies the Russian-origin MiG-29K.
04:24Now, it's a very powerful multi-role fighter jet that's operating both onboard INS Vikrama Ditya
04:29and INS Vikrant.
04:31It's been in service since 2010.
04:33But the future, or at least what's coming in the next couple of years, once the deal is inked,
04:40are the Rafal Marines set to join the fleet, marking a new era in Indian Navy's aviation
04:47with unmatched carrier-borne capabilities and modern technology.
04:52So, from the Seahawk to the Rafal M, Indian naval aviation has transformed, as the Navy says,
04:59into a force that's completely capable of projecting India's power across oceans.
05:06And with the Rafal Marines on the horizon, the Indian Navy is ready to make its presence felt
05:12in a much stronger way in the years to come, from the North Arabian Sea to the South China Sea and beyond.
05:18And on Battlecry, let me now tell you a little more about the nuts and bolts,
05:28about the capabilities of the Rafal Marines.
05:32It's not a fifth generation, it's not a fourth generation,
05:34it's about a 4.5 generation fighter jet of the Indian Navy.
05:39The top speed is about 1.8 Mach.
05:42The combat radius is about 1,000 to 1,850 kilometers.
05:46It depends on the mission, of course.
05:48The service ceiling of this aircraft is 50,000 feet.
05:53The empty weight is about 10,600 kilograms.
05:58The maximum take-off weight is 24,500 kilograms.
06:03And let me now tell you about the two engines that power this war machine, this warbird.
06:10So two Snekma M88-4E turbofan engines, they power this massive beast avionics and systems make this in a class of its own.
06:22So it has a long-range radar for long-range detection and tracking, the spectra electronic warfare suite for radar warning, jamming and for decoying.
06:32The weapons and payload include the Meteor and the Micah Beyond Visual Range air-to-air missiles, the Scalp EG cruise missiles, the Exocet AM39 anti-ship missile.
06:44It's also armed with precision-guided bombs and an internal 30mm cannon.
06:49So this is a very, very powerful warfighting machine that the Indian Navy was looking at for a very long time.
06:58It's perhaps, as some argue, for now, a stop-cap arrangement so that the Indian Navy can move beyond the MiG-29Ks and wait for the made-in-India twin-engine deck-based fighter jets.
07:12So what does this proposed acquisition of the Rafale Marines for the Indian Navy mean for India and India's growing strategic might?
07:24Joining me on this battle cry special, Vice Admiral Shekhar Sina, former Flag Officer Commanding-in-Chief, Western Naval Command, himself an aviator, a naval aviator, Air Marshal Sanjeev Kapoor, former Director General of Inspections and Flight Safety of the Indian Air Force.
07:40And Sushant Sareen is a Senior Fellow at the Observer Research Foundation, joining us on the battle cry.
07:46Admiral Sina, the CCS giving a clearance to the acquisition of Rafale Marines.
07:51Now, as a former Gray Eagle, sir, in your appreciation, what does this acquisition mean for the Indian Navy and the timing?
08:00Well, thank you for getting me on your show, Gaurav.
08:04You know, it means a lot for the country to begin with.
08:07Navy, of course, Navy will do with what they have.
08:11But the thing is that the government has realized the importance of having the maritime sea power on as, you know, here and now basis.
08:24And we have two aircraft carriers.
08:27And what it means to have the sea power in the Indian Ocean.
08:31I think I think that part must be must be given credit to the Sri Narendra Modiji's government, because, you know, it has been hanging fire for quite some time.
08:41He has been to France in between and come back.
08:43Now, what it means is that we can deploy both the carriers at the same time.
08:48Its reach is going to be quite far.
08:50So it has in an in a sense, it has taken into account the so-called two front war, you know, the the Pakistanis creating problem on the Arabian sea side, because now they are being, you know, jacked up by the Chinese by giving them JF-17 and so many other equipment.
09:10And one on the eastern coast, there's no doubt east coast is just about it's not the same.
09:14You see what's happening in Bangladesh, you see what's happening in Myanmar and China is just about to appear in the Bay of Bengal.
09:23The Americans are very worried.
09:25So I think the given geopolitical situation and is going to unfold, keep unfolding.
09:30So in next four or five years, I think this whole area is going to look very different.
09:34Okay.
09:35M.A.S.H. Kapoor, the commonality with the Indian Air Force Rafale fighter jets, should that be the template for the future?
09:42And does that commonality help, even if it's about 80% with the Rafale Marines and the IAF Rafales?
09:48Absolutely.
09:49The training for Aura pilots basically is done by the Air Force.
09:54So the bonding and the grooming is much higher.
09:57And when the airway refilling came in the early 2004, 2005, 2006 series, so we were part of, you know, being trained with Seahawks, correction, Seahawks.
10:09And later on, on to MiG-29s.
10:12So now the aerial refilling has become an integral part of every air operations.
10:17And you'll be happy to know your views that we've done a lot of wet leaves from an American company for a tanker.
10:23And I was reading somewhere that we are doing a government-to-government contract to get the Airbus MRTT from the French Air Force.
10:30So with one squadron here, one on wet leaves, one coming from government to government.
10:36Now coming to a specific question of interoperability, see the advantage is the common logistics with moving on to theatrization, with moving on to constant logistics hub, having Rafales both with the Air Force and the Navy.
10:52And in the end, the country has 62 Rafales.
10:55Let's take it this way.
10:57It doesn't specify that this can only be used on water, it can be used on land also, or the Air Force Air Force can also go and strike some targets and come back with aerial refilling.
11:07So the interoperability is there, the training is there, the maintenance is there, the logistics of course have covered.
11:14So all in all, it's better to have a similar platform with the two services.
11:19Okay.
11:20Sushant Sareen, is that also a geostrategic signal that India is sending out choosing the French fighter jets, as some argue, over the F-18 Super Hornets that the Americans were offering?
11:31Or are these decisions purely on the capability of the aircraft and no larger geostrategic signal there?
11:37No, I think there's always a geostrategic signal out there.
11:42But I think what Air Marshal Kapoor is talking about is also a very, very important consideration.
11:47You know, at a time when you're talking about, you know, integrating the forces, talking about joint commands, theatre commands, to have different airlines or different aircraft for different operations, it doesn't make sense.
12:03And the Air Marshal very correctly says that, you know, you bring all that jointness in, the common logistics change, common training, all of it, bulk of it is the same.
12:13So there is economy in it, there is greater interoperability in it.
12:18And the fact is that, you know, once you have this kind of setup, and this is not probably the end of acquisitions of Rafals, we probably might be going in for more.
12:29So, the complexities which were involved in maintaining different kinds of aircraft, 20 of this, 30 of something else, you know, that goes out.
12:38Secondly, I think the Rafal is a very dependable aircraft.
12:41It's a competent aircraft.
12:43Is it the best?
12:45Perhaps not.
12:46But I think it's competent for the job it is required for.
12:49And to that extent, it works for us.
12:52So let me take that.
12:53Okay, let me take that to our two aviators on this broadcast.
12:57Admiral Sinan, was Rafal the best option for the Indian Navy?
13:01And I'll come to the Air Marshal for the Air Force in just a moment.
13:04What tipped the scales in favor of the Rafal Marines in your appreciation, sir?
13:10Gaurav, at this point in time, Rafal is the best option for the reasons which Air Marshal Kapoor mentioned and what Sushant has just mentioned.
13:21In addition, the big thing is that it is about four and a half generation aircraft.
13:28It is ahead of the F-18 in many ways.
13:30I have had the good fortune of flying both of them, you know, not many Sushanties, but few Sushanties.
13:37And I think that the technology advancement in the Rafale is way ahead of the F-18.
13:43And F-18 is, you know, slowly is going to go away from service very soon.
13:47And they are getting into the F-35 mode.
13:50So, I think that at the moment, at this point in time, this is the best option that we have.
13:57I know that you will probably be talking about the Russian option that, you know, that can happen.
14:03But on the aircraft carrier that we have, we tried out, the Navy tried out both the F-18 and the Rafale in the shore-based test facility at Goa.
14:12And they have come to this conclusion that Rafale, as far as the fitment into the aircraft carrier is concerned, and the operational QRs, as they call it, NSQRs or ASQRs, their force calls it, it fits into the, you know, fits into that very well.
14:27And there is not 80%.
14:30I am told there is a 90% commonality between these two.
14:34Also important to remember that Rafale was actually designed as a marine aircraft first.
14:40It started flying from the aircraft carrier.
14:43And on the sidelines, it was also being tried for a shore-based operation.
14:47So, I think that, you know, the basic design, we don't have to worry too much, just like the MiG-29K, where we became a trial platform, because the Russians didn't fly that aircraft in that manner.
14:59And therefore, we have had a lot of maintenance problems, as we have come on your program earlier.
15:04And I think that at the moment, for the next four, five, six years, Rafale is the best option for the Indian Navy or for the government.
15:13Which then brings me to the point, sir, Air Marshal Kapoor, and Admiral Sinai, I also want you to weigh in on it after him.
15:21Air Marshal Kapoor, had we negotiated the price of Rafales for the Indian Air Force and then the Indian Navy, and perhaps, you know, as Sushant Sareen was also mentioning,
15:30it's one of the contenders for the additional 114 aircraft that the Indian Air Force is looking at.
15:34Had we negotiated the prices of all of them together, wouldn't we have done a better job getting better prices, better maintenance,
15:41and overall, a better deal for India?
15:45See, you have a point there, but the camp is increasing too fast and too discomfort for us.
15:53Because on one hand, the areas have gone, the serviceability of MiG-29K is in question.
16:00The government-to-government negotiations and this thing is prolonged.
16:03Now, looking at India's point of view, we may like to go in for a C-295 kind of a model, wherein we fill up for the Air Force in stopgap off-the-shelf certain aircrafts.
16:14Even if we order to take Gaurav, it is going to take four to five years.
16:19These Rafales, which the deal would be signed, you would know better, in this month when the French foreign minister comes to India,
16:26will keep delivery from not earlier than 2029.
16:30So, if we wait for 114 Air Force aircrafts also to be negotiated, this thing, so the production line and the waiting period further.
16:42So, this, with the Chinese moving into Iowa region, and like what Admiral Sinha just mentioned, and he is, of course, a strategic thinker,
16:51the neighbor is not going to wait for us to, you know, negotiate with friends.
16:55And so, whatsoever we have got is at least a very big deterrent and it will be operational on both the aircraft carriers.
17:02Okay, okay.
17:03And Admiral Sinha, you know, when Indian Air Force bought the MiG-29s, when the Indian Air Force went in for two squadrons of the Mirages,
17:13it was all a knee-jerk reaction, if I may, because the Pakistanis were getting the F-16, so we needed better aircraft,
17:22so you go in for two squadrons, because the overall acquisition is taking time, that mindset.
17:27And since you've been chief of that integrated defense staff, you worked on jointmanship, you've headed that department in South Block,
17:34why can't or why don't we negotiate together?
17:37We have, you know, long-term perspective plans, we have medium-term perspective plans.
17:42So, if Indian Air Force needs the Rafals, Indian Navy needs the Rafals,
17:45why don't we negotiate for everything together as part of Procure and Make in India?
17:52I hope, what I'm going to say now, that I am right, having been part of a number of these negotiations in the past.
18:01You know, I'm sure the government has taken full advantage of the pricing
18:05when they were talking to the French on the Air Force aircraft.
18:11And they would have certainly given a hint that this is not the end of our friendship as far as Rafal is concerned.
18:17You never know, we might be needing it for aircraft carrier.
18:21And we might be needing more of these aircraft, you know, for the Air Force, 114 gun numbers which are just quoted.
18:28So, I think that, I know the Indians are very tough negotiators on any pricing that they will tell you, that all the countries will tell you.
18:36Well, Donald Trump has gone on record to say so.
18:39Yeah.
18:39He's called Prime Minister Modi a tough negotiator.
18:41Very true.
18:43And so are the, you know, the teams which go, people like the bureaucracy, all those who sit in the price negotiation committee.
18:51You know, they call off the meetings.
18:54You know, when they get angry, they say, sorry, if it is not acceptable, then we are walking out.
18:57You know, this is how the pressures are applied in all these.
19:00So, I would think that the pricing, they would have already come to some conclusion.
19:08And it is quite possible that the pricing could not have been done better than this.
19:12And even while buying this marine aircraft, I am quite certain that some hint must have been given to them.
19:18That if you shift the manufacturing or assembly in India, you know, then, you know, if you do that, only then we are willing to accept your higher price on the marine aircraft.
19:33Otherwise, we would like to, you give us this price, then we will permit you to start manufacturing in India and export to the world.
19:40So, I think that, you know, I am sure that these talks have gone in that manner, though I don't have any first-hand information.
19:46But knowing the trend in which this goes, I think that the pricing, you know, we have had a big question in the past, Supreme Court case, etc., etc., etc.
19:58And we have gone past that state.
20:00You know, the price negotiation committee.
20:02That Supreme Court case and some of the documents or half documents, Sushant Sareen, that were presented in Supreme Court by very learned people, brings me to that point that there will be elements who will rake this up, they will raise this.
20:16And that is why I thought we will get a response from experts and analysts on what's best for India, what's the best way to keep the nation first.
20:25Because, Sushant Sareen, isn't there a bigger strategic signal that India is also sending out, not just to the countries in the region, but across the Indo-Pacific, that we are much, we are getting ready or ready for a much bigger role from the North Arabian Sea to the South China Sea and more?
20:41Yeah, so, on the politics of it, that's going to happen.
20:46But I think we need to move beyond the noise that will be generated and focus on the substantive part, which is what your question is all about.
20:55And I think it's very important from the point of view of signaling that India is filling certain gaps which have come in our capability.
21:02We are building up our capabilities as we speak.
21:05Yes, it will take a little time.
21:07I think what Admiral Sinha is saying is probably likely to come true, that some of these production facilities might be moving to India.
21:16Also, because the French are looking for, you know, upscaling their manufacturing.
21:24So, if India is going to be buying some more aircraft, then maybe some of those manufacturing facilities might be moving towards India for also for global supplies.
21:34So, maybe that is also going to happen.
21:36If we are going to ask for technology transfers, those are not going to come.
21:40But I think if our own people are working on some of those production lines, they get the experience, they get their knowledge.
21:46Perhaps that's the way to go about it.
21:49Either you steal the technology or you make it on your own.
21:51And if you are trained people, then maybe you can start making some things on your own.
21:55So, I think that is the other side.
21:57The third thing is, I think it's also a very clear signal to the French who have been extremely reliable and dependable as defense suppliers.
22:06They don't, you know, stand on ceremony like the Americans would do or they don't let their internal political system start interfering in imposing sanctions or, you know, slowing down the supplies, stuff like that which happens.
22:20The Russians, unfortunately, haven't been able to rise up to that dependability level, partly because of their own production problems, partly because they are also involved in a war and they need, you know, to divert the production for their own requirements.
22:34So, I think the French, going with the French, the technology is good, maybe the price is a little much, but then you are not going to get this stuff cheaper.
22:44So, I think all in all, this is a good arrangement, but I think we have to admit that at best, this is a stopgap arrangement.
22:51We need to have our own production capabilities.
22:54We need to make our own aircraft.
22:56We need to have our own capabilities on that side.
22:59And I think that is another point I was coming to.
23:01That's the point I was coming to, Marshall Kapoor.
23:03How do we ensure, you know, with these huge orders that are going out to France, that we get perhaps the fighter jet engine capabilities in India, manufacture aircraft in India?
23:14Because when you start acquiring these stopgap arrangements, does this adversely impact India's own aircraft manufacturing capabilities, research, development, trial and error, God forbid, and then moving forward, Air Marshal Kapoor?
23:27Yeah, I agree with Mr. Shoshant, what he just mentioned.
23:33I recall in 2005, we had gone for an exercise to France.
23:37And these were two, two 30 cars that had gone for an exercise there.
23:42The French Air Force is the most reliable partner for India amongst the NATO countries.
23:48And I am talking 20 years ago, the French Air Force did air-to-air refueling with us on their tankers.
23:56So, their Mirages and their aircraft tanked on our aircraft and our fighters tanked on to the French Air Force fighters.
24:05No other country in route had agreed.
24:07Now, how it helped is how subsequently, if all for our international exercises, like we have in Greece, we go to UK, we go to USA for red flag and other things, the French tankers assist the Indian Air Force fighters to hop across.
24:22So, we don't have to lug our tankers across.
24:26So, this faith and development that happened in 2005 for the first time.
24:30Now, coming specifically to your question about manufacturing, I was reading somewhere that the Kaveri breakthrough has come in.
24:37The reheat part was the problem earlier.
24:41And if we are able to crack that, we are very close to producing our own engine.
24:47We are very close to producing our own engine.
24:49What a lovely thing to hear.
24:51The French know this.
24:54French itself, because of the geopolitical situations, are looking for a reliable partner and a market.
25:00And I don't know how, like Admiral Sina said, we are able to negotiate.
25:04I don't know till what extent SNECMA or other company gives us a certain kind of transfer of technology.
25:12So, that along with the GTRE, along with the other companies which are manufacturing and our R&D people, we sit together and make.
25:20A few aircrafts of the IAF, we take in the flyaway conditions like C295.
25:25Others we get, say like 40%, 50% Indianization.
25:29At the last French, we are able to manufacture about 80-90% in about 5 years time.
25:35This is what I hopefully look forward to.
25:37Well, I sincerely hope that happens.
25:40Though I've run out of time on this part of the show, but this is a story we'll be tracking very, very closely.
25:46Admiral Sina, Air Marshal Kapoor and Sushant Serene for joining me here on this Battle Cry special broadcast.
25:52As always, many thanks.
25:54Because there's another aspect I want to focus on, perhaps for another time, which is the future of air war.
26:00Is it more about fighter jets?
26:02Is it more about armed drones?
26:03Or tandem operations about manned, unmanned together?
26:07But that's for another time.
26:09For joining me here on this Battle Cry special, many thanks.
26:13News and updates continue on India Today.
26:15Stay with us.
26:30Stay with us.
26:55Bye.