Keynote Conversation with Will Packer | Power of Law
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00:00My name is Angelique Jackson. I'm one of the senior entertainment writers over at Variety, and it is my pleasure to lead this conversation with the impressive billion-plus-dollar-grossing producer, Will Packer.
00:20What's up?
00:22Shout-out to my good friend and my brother, Daryl Miller. So well-deserved.
00:27It's an honor to be with you, brother. For the record, he's my brother and a brother. We're actually fraternity brothers, but I want to clarify that because I don't want Variety to lose their federal funding and think it was a DEI thing.
00:45He's a lawyer that happens to be a brother and my brother. I'll just stop there, Daryl. I don't know. That's all I got, man. Congratulations, dude.
00:57Well, I will say I'm glad you mentioned brothers because something that is a standout about your career thus far is you have found a way to leverage these relationships that you have made and continue to become more and more and more successful as you work with Kevin Hart again and Tim Story again.
01:17And I would love to hear you talk about that first, sort of like what Lynette was saying, the importance of conversation, but also the importance of conversation with people that you have that shorthand with.
01:29How does that then play into how you make these deals for these movies?
01:34Oh, yeah. I mean, you know, at the end of the day, this is a people-driven business, and sometimes you can forget about that, right?
01:39We get so caught up in, you know, in deals and terms and strategies and, you know, the fact that this is a, you know, big business with big companies that are, you know, constricting, consolidating and the like.
01:53It's still people. That's all it is. It's people.
01:56And I started my career as a, you know, small independent filmmaker at an HBCU at Florida A&M University, making a little tiny movie, not knowing much about what I was doing, but I connected with an audience in a particular way.
02:09And I learned about how to connect with an audience, and I still do that to this day, no matter the size of the film.
02:16So when you talk about, like, the people I work with, my frequent collaborators, absolutely, because I know, you know, their talent level, their work ethic.
02:22And that's true, not just in front of the camera, behind the camera, the, you know, studio executives I work with.
02:29It's about relationships.
02:31And especially right now in a time where we're all realizing how unpredictable things can be.
02:39This has always been a stressful business. That's not new.
02:42But we're certainly under some challenges that are a little bit different than we've been under before.
02:47I think it's more important than ever to make sure that the time that you're spending, right?
02:51We all have a finite amount of energy that we can give to the world at any particular time.
02:57But the world has an infinite number of things trying to draw energy from us, right?
03:01So you have to protect your energy.
03:02One of the ways of doing that is by making sure that you're working with people who also are worth your time and your energy and your circle.
03:09Just because it's a deal to get done, you know, the old saying, life's too short.
03:14Life's really too short right now, you know?
03:16So I just think that's important, something to keep in mind.
03:18When you look at this kind of place that we aren't at in our industry right now, you mentioned kind of contraction and consolidation.
03:26What is your kind of 30,000-foot view as you step into a room to make a new pitch?
03:32What are some of the things that you're considering right now?
03:34For me, it has always been no matter the cycle that we're in, the ebb or the flow of the business, it's always been about the audience.
03:46That is how I have built my career.
03:48I didn't, you know, have a lot of connections in this town or a last name that got me in, you know, doors or anything like that.
03:56The one thing I had was an audience.
03:59I knew how to get to an audience, and I've always been a believer that you don't have to get all of the audiences, but you've got to make sure you get an audience.
04:11And so I have been very specific and driven about that.
04:14So when I walk into a room in this environment, I'm still talking about the audience.
04:18I'm still, you know, I'm a filmmaker.
04:21I love the art of storytelling.
04:23I actually have an engineering degree, so I have an analytical mind, and I think that that gives me kind of a different perspective.
04:29And so I'm walking into a room, and I'm typically saying, listen, it's going to cost X.
04:35I'm going after a specific audience that's going to deliver Y, and Y is greater than X.
04:39And at the end of the day, I've gotten, you know, some pretty successful movies made that way.
04:44But it's about that audience.
04:45It's about who you're making it for.
04:47I don't care the environment or the time or what's happening in our business.
04:50Is people way outside of this town, they don't really care.
04:54They want to be, they don't.
04:55They don't care about what's happening, you know, with us and what's going on within our specific industry, the specificities of challenges that we may have.
05:04You know, they're worried about the cost of groceries, and they're worried about what is going to give them an escapist moment, what is going to entertain them, what is going to be something that is, you know, worth the subscription or the movie ticket.
05:15And so you've got to keep them first.
05:17You've got to make sure they're top of mind.
05:18I mean, you've told me that you go so far as to name your audience members.
05:23Like, you know what their name is, where they're from, you know, what they're doing on the weekend.
05:29What did that look like for something like Italiana, for example?
05:32You get Halle Bailey and Regé-Jean Page together.
05:35Who was their audience that you were imagining?
05:37So, what Anthony's talking about, I fictionalize an audience member on every project, but I'm very specific about it, right?
05:47I know, you know, so for Italiana, I'm still developing the project.
05:55But before I take on a project, I think about, you know, who that person is.
06:01I have to see them very, very clearly.
06:04And I think, is that person going to circle the calendar, right?
06:10I don't care what everybody else thinks.
06:12Are they going to say, oh, this is for me?
06:14This is my movie, my project, my TV show, whatever it may be.
06:18And, you know, and I give her a name and a profession.
06:22And so, Italiana, it is a, you know, she's a Gen Z black female that graduated from Howard and is working in D.C.
06:33She works at a nonprofit, but she really wants to be a writer.
06:36She's unlucky in love.
06:38And this is all very real, people.
06:41I don't know why you're laughing.
06:43This is when the movie's a hit.
06:45You remember I told you this.
06:48She's unlucky in love, and she is kind of down on it.
06:51And she's been spending a lot of time on Reddit and rooms that talk about A.I. dating, et cetera.
06:57So she's kind of lost her focus, and she's looking for something aspirational.
07:02And she doesn't go to the movies very often, right?
07:04She will, you know, binge a show from the early 2000s, but she doesn't go to the movies.
07:09And so I think this is the project that I want to get her back to the theater, and I want it to be aspirational, and I want her to see herself on that screen and believe in the dream and promise of love and greater things beyond our world.
07:24So a little bit of fantasy, aspirational, rom-com love, yeah, all of that.
07:31Her name is Angelique, by the way.
07:34That's true.
07:35I did know you.
07:36I don't know if you knew that, but.
07:37You had been reading my diary or maybe my Reddit posts.
07:40But, I mean, it is.
07:43It is one of those things where when you have that kind of level of specificity, you know, that does allow you to, when you go make that pitch, you go, even when you're deciding on the talent that it's going to be, you think, you know, who is that Gen Z person who's binging?
07:57This girl definitely watched Bridgerton.
07:59She probably has seen, she also probably went to the ball.
08:02Like, she knows who these people are, and it just makes everything so much more solid as you go into it.
08:09Did you say she went to the mall?
08:11The ball.
08:11Oh, I'm just saying.
08:12The Bridgerton ball.
08:13Well, she did also go to the mall back in the day.
08:16These kids are not going to the mall.
08:17They don't know what that is.
08:19Yeah.
08:20Absolutely.
08:21A hundred percent.
08:21And that's why you end up with, you know, incredible actors like Halle Bailey and reggae John Page.
08:26And, you know, hopefully it will work and connect with audiences.
08:29But at the end of the day, I think that you have to cut through and you've got to think about it.
08:33That's my method.
08:34Everybody has their own in terms of, you know, being a creative.
08:38At the end of the day, you've got to cut through.
08:39You've got to cut through an environment.
08:41It's total oversaturation.
08:42Everything's pulling at, you know, your attention every second.
08:45You know, you guys are sitting there right now and your stock market apps are dinging, dinging.
08:49Don't look.
08:49Don't look, guys.
08:50Stay.
08:51Eyes on me.
08:52Stay focused.
08:52Okay?
08:54But everything's dragging, you know, pulling our attention all the time.
08:57And especially when you're going after, like, that younger audience who has full access to everything, right?
09:03And, you know, and limited resources.
09:07And so they're very selective about what they're going to spend them on.
09:10And they spend an inordinate amount of time on things that spark to them, right?
09:13Something that sparks for that Gen Z.
09:15They're going to go and spend all the hours on whatever that thing is, right?
09:20TikTok.
09:20So, you know, you've got to make sure that you're creating content that is cutting through, no matter what, at the end of the day.
09:28It's got to be loud.
09:29It's got to be provocative.
09:30It's got to speak to people.
09:32And you mentioned, of course, also theatrical.
09:34This was a movie that you're like, this is going to get that woman, Angelique, into the theaters.
09:39How do you go about making those decisions as well?
09:43Because you also have made movies for streaming.
09:46You know, the last time we spoke, we spoke for Praise This, which was on Peacock.
09:50You will have 72 hours.
09:52That will be for Netflix.
09:54As you are making those decisions and those determinations, what are some of those things that are factoring in?
10:00Well, the audience, honestly, it goes back because I have to be, as a producer, Lynette talked, you know, really intelligently about the challenge of being a producer.
10:14And shout out to Producers United and all the amazing stuff that's happening.
10:17I'm a proud supporter and member of that organization.
10:20You have to make sure that you're malleable, that you can't get locked in, in my opinion, as a producer, and saying, okay, I'm working on this, you know, project for this medium.
10:35Like, this is what it is.
10:36I think you have to make sure along the way, as it's coming into fruition, as you're developing it from the time that you're conceiving it, you're making sure that it is fitting perfectly where the audience will enjoy it.
10:50We'll consume it, where they will consume that type of project.
10:53And I, you know, I tell my team all the time, we can't be the, you know, just a shoe company, right?
11:00And somebody brings us an amazing design for a hat, and we try to put it on our feet and say it's awful, right?
11:06We got to be malleable.
11:07We got to say, okay, this, we thought this was a feature theatrical.
11:10It's actually better streaming.
11:11You know what?
11:12It's actually better as a doc.
11:13You know what?
11:13It actually lends itself to being a limited.
11:15Like, I think you have to be able to not in, you don't deter the creative.
11:24You make sure the vision is still there, but you got to make sure you're delivering it in a medium that the audience is more prone to consume it.
11:32Because when we, because they lead us.
11:35I just believe that.
11:36We work in service to them.
11:37And when we flip it the other way around, right, when we as a town get so, you know, ego-driven and we go, they'll come, we'll build it, they'll come.
11:45No, they won't.
11:46And you'll just, you won't be at the variety brunch next year.
11:49That's what it'll, you know, you'll be home.
11:52So I just think you got to be malleable.
11:53You got to listen to the audience.
11:54And so for me, I think about where are they going to consume this?
11:58Where's the best opportunity, the best medium that they're most likely to feel like this particular type of project will fit?
12:04Well, you mentioned limited as well.
12:06So also Fight Night, you know, the idea of translating that story into a multi-episode series versus doing a streaming or theatrical film, you know, how did that then end up paying off?
12:19Yeah, I mean, it's interesting because Fight Night, which is our limited series, which debuted on Peacock and was the biggest debut in Peacock history, it started off as a theatrical feature.
12:30It's literally the perfect example of this.
12:31I was pitched a project and set it up as a theatrical feature, developed it, went down the road and could not get it there.
12:40The project never got there.
12:41We then turned it into a podcast, right?
12:46So it was a true story that was out there.
12:48We then created IP around it because we made this story, which I thought was an incredible story, into a podcast.
12:55Then we took that podcast and completely independent of anything I'd ever done with it as a feature and then sold the podcast as a limited series.
13:06And the format of the podcast, because it was, you know, the way that we told it in a limited fashion, the narrative, the way that it played out, lent itself to the buyer saying, I can see this as a limited series.
13:20So that's one that, you know, 10 years ago I would have said, absolutely, this is a movie.
13:25It's a theatrical feature.
13:26Nope, not anymore.
13:27It absolutely became a podcast.
13:29Then it became a limited series.
13:31But I had to be, I could not be rigid and inflexible throughout that process.
13:35Have you always been this malleable?
13:37Like, how did you learn to be not so rigid?
13:42Because I do feel like a lot of times people kind of just beat their head against the wall about certain things and are very didactic and they're like, no, it has to be this.
13:50How did you learn to be this way?
13:52Because I was born outside of this game, you know what I mean?
13:57As an urban vernacular, I got it out the mud, as they say.
14:02Somebody looked that up on the urban dictionary.
14:07Because I was totally an independent producer.
14:09Because I didn't know, I literally, you know, am the guy who made, like, a tiny movie with a little bit of money and drove city to city to city with one print convincing theaters to, like, show this on your smallest house on your slowest weekend.
14:24So, you have to, when you're doing it that way, you learn that, you know, there are no rules.
14:31And the rule is the win, right?
14:33When I was able to put butts in seats behind the theater, then I got the call from, you know, folks in this town.
14:39And so, I was like, oh, okay, if I make money without Hollywood, then they'll come, right?
14:43They wouldn't return my calls before.
14:45And it kind of doesn't matter how I got there.
14:47They now perceive success in a way that they quantify success.
14:50That's it, period.
14:52So, for me, that's why I have to be, I can't think, oh, this is the way that it's done.
14:56No, because that wasn't the way that it worked for me.
14:57I had to figure it out, right?
14:59The front door was closed, so I went to the window, and it wouldn't open, so I climbed to the roof and cut a hole in it.
15:04Like, that's the mentality you, that's the mentality you have to have.
15:07That's the producer mentality.
15:09Am I right, Lynette?
15:09I mean, you just, you make it happen, right?
15:11What do you look at as the next innovation?
15:14Like, as you are thinking about things now, even that idea with Fight Night, creating it as a podcast and having that IP instead, where do you kind of look at as the next frontiers?
15:25I mean, it's hard not to talk about, you know, where we are with AI and virtual production.
15:34And I think that those that are able to take advantage of it as a tool and not become the tool will be the ones that are able to sustain through that environment.
15:49I think, you know, I've seen some really incredible things that will take storytelling to the next level and, unfortunately, do away with a lot of human jobs.
16:00And so I think a lot about how do I balance that, how do I use it as a tool to deliver what audiences are looking for.
16:08But for me, the human component is still so important.
16:11AI will never, ever replace this, you know.
16:14It's still people that you can feel the texture and the nuance of the art that we make.
16:19So when you talk about the next frontier, I think it's probably around, you know, how we as an industry adapt and use technology to deliver an experience that is unparalleled to an audience that has a lot of options right now.
16:37I also want to talk to you about the idea of, you know, Hollywood does tend to focus on the IP driven, the sequels.
16:46But you have actually found a way to make a lot of very successful sequels.
16:50But all of the sequels tend to be doing something different, really adding to, you know, whatever the franchise will be, whether that be Think Like a Man or Ride Along.
17:01Are we still getting another Ride Along?
17:04Maybe.
17:04Okay, okay, listen, I'm just trying to find out about Ride Along 3.
17:08But the idea, and actually, and Girls Trip 2, there's a lot of franchises, but how do you find a way of keeping it fresh when you are going in and continuing these franchises?
17:22I mean, I think you have to think about it as more than just like a derivative, you know, money play.
17:32I think you've got to make sure that everything doesn't need a sequel.
17:37And, you know, as a producer, like that's kind of weird to say because we're supposed to just make anything and everything we can, right?
17:44But everything doesn't.
17:46And an audience has grown when they feel like, oh, here's Hollywood with another like, you know, rehash, remake.
17:51But I think if you can do what I am interested in and think a lot about is IP is good.
18:01IP isn't bad, but it doesn't have to be the traditional way we think about it, right?
18:06Like it's amazing if you've got a book, it's amazing if you've got a, you know, a comic book series, an article, a podcast.
18:12But also there are things that are important and sticky to real audiences that you can do content around that is not traditional IP.
18:23Like is there, like for instance, Girls Trip.
18:26So Girls Trip wasn't based on IP, but it was based on an actual festival that took place, right?
18:33And I knew that there was a large audience of people that knew and had a connection with this experience.
18:40And that story of that experience hadn't been told.
18:42And I knew if we did it authentically, there would be people who knew nothing about that who may say, oh, that's interesting.
18:48But it started with this thing that was real.
18:50I think that we as creatives have to think about how we are using the fact that a risk-averse industry is looking for ways to mitigate their risk and do it in such a way so that you're giving them something that is familiar to an audience but may not necessarily be like the biggest book of the year.
19:14But it's still based around some concept, element, story that they may experience, that they may know.
19:24I have no idea how interesting this is to lawyers.
19:27I mean, I don't, I am, I'm having a ball, but I don't, Angelique and I are just, we're just wrapping away.
19:34Can we get a straw poll?
19:36How interesting was this to y'all?
19:37But, so I guess that brings me to my last question because I do think folks in the room would like to know, how do you get Will Packer's attention?
19:52So, you know, if someone is coming to you, has a client who wants to be in a Will Packer production, you know, what are, what are, what are the ways in which that you kind of look to form these new relationships?
20:04What, what is getting you excited right now?
20:07You know, there's a, there's a, I, I place a high amount of value on people and the types of people that I'm working with.
20:16And so there's a reason that I do have, you know, frequent collaborators like, you know, Kev or Idris or whoever.
20:22But I also, ludicrous, I also think that I don't live in L.A.
20:33I'm out here all the time, but it's not my primary, like I'm not, you know, I, I, I'm, I'm back, back east, back in the southeast.
20:41And I am, there's something about like placing a value on the folks that you're around.
20:48It goes back to that thing I was saying about the finite amount of energy that we all have.
20:52I think a lot about, I think a lot about like just protecting my injury structure.
20:55So when you say like, who, who, you know, what clients do I want to work with?
20:59How do you bring somebody to me for a project?
21:01Like, I got to think about all the typical producer things.
21:03Okay, do they bring an audience?
21:04Are they talented?
21:04Are they right for the project?
21:06I think about like, do I want to work with this person?
21:08Like, you know, producing is hard.
21:10Like I'm going to be in, you know, that's not a good example.
21:14I was going to say, I'm going to be in Tuscany all summer.
21:15That probably wasn't the, I shouldn't have followed that after the tough part, but follow me.
21:21My point is, you end up working with these people for a very long time.
21:26And so you have to make sure that it, there are people that are like augmenting your energy.
21:32Because I believe people either augmenting your energy or draining your energy, binary,
21:35one or the other, no in between.
21:36I really believe that.
21:37So I like to surround myself in this very challenging job with people that are augmenting my energy,
21:43that are like, you know, doing it for the right reasons, that are ultimately good people.
21:47That's like, you know, maybe a weird thing to say in Hollywood, especially at the lawyer's brunch.
21:51But it's true.
21:53I don't mean that in a bad way.
21:54Don't, don't, Daryl, protect me.
21:56I feel like if I get sued, you got me, right, brother?
22:00Just hold me down.
22:01But really, I just think that it's about like, whoever you are.
22:06So who are you working with?
22:07Who are you surrounding yourself with?
22:09And surround yourself with people that are continuing to add value to your life.
22:15And I think that we're all now realizing that our value systems need to shift given the unpredictable state of the world.
22:27And we need to make sure that we're spending our time in proper way.
22:30It doesn't mean like I'm not against capitalism.
22:32I'm absolutely about let's get the business done.
22:34I'm prolific.
22:35I'm making a lot of stuff.
22:36I'm busy.
22:37All that stuff.
22:38But there's a way that you can do it.
22:40And I have a mentality that the people you're doing it with matters.
22:43The way that you do it matters.
22:45I believe that.
22:46I really do.
22:47Well, thank you for sharing your belief system, your creative innovations with us.
22:52Thank you all so much for listening.