Romaine Mundle injury latest and Tommy Watson debate
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00:00Hello, welcome to the Raw Podcast brought to you by The Sunland Echo.
00:21My name is Jason Jones, joined by James Coghley and Phil Smith.
00:25As always, we've got plenty to be discussing today, not least because it's a quick turnaround
00:30for Sunderland this week. They had, obviously, a game against West Brom on Saturday afternoon,
00:34a game that they won 1-0. They're back in action on Tuesday night and away trip to Norwich City,
00:39which I'm sure both you boys are looking forward to doing on a Tuesday night. Nice long one for
00:45you there. But before we get into that, obviously, we do need to talk about the West Brom game.
00:50Another 1-0 win for Sunderland, another winning goal for Trey Hulme as well,
00:54making a late push towards that Championship Golden Boot at this rate. He's certainly enjoying
00:59an auspicious couple of weeks. But all in all, Phil, what did you make of Sunderland's performance
01:05at the Hawthorns this weekend? Yeah, it was quite a difficult one to assess really,
01:11because I think when you look at the stats of the game, obviously, West Brom can come away
01:17feeling like they should have taken something from it. And I think even speaking to the Brits
01:20afterwards, Sunderland were a long way from their best in possession. They didn't create a great
01:24deal. It is a goalkeeping error for the goal on the ball. I didn't think Sunderland were particularly
01:30impressive. But I think it was a game that gave you a lot of confidence, I guess, coming away from
01:37it in another sense, because Sunderland's resilience defensively and the fact that for all
01:42West Brom's possession and their shots, the fact that Anthony Patterson didn't have a great deal
01:48to do over the course of the game was really encouraging, because we obviously know we're
01:52in a position now where it's all about this playoff campaign that is almost certainly going
01:56to happen. And if you're looking for sort of positives to take into that, the fact that
02:00Sunderland were able to go away from home, absorb pressure, defend their box really well,
02:05you know, Trae Hulme obviously was excellent, but Matt from 09 I thought were outstanding in the game.
02:10There were loads and loads of positives to take away from it. And I think James and I
02:14were talking after the game that it was reassuring after what happened at Coventry to see Sunderland
02:18perform like that, defend like that, a lot of spirit, a lot of togetherness. So I couldn't
02:23enthuse too much about the overall performance, but I think in terms of the mentality and the
02:27spirit, there was a lot there that makes me feel more confident than I did about a possible
02:31playoff campaign than I did after the Coventry game, for sure. I mean, would you echo that,
02:38James? It didn't feel as if Sunderland created a great deal themselves, but like Phil sort of
02:43said, it also felt as if West Brom really struggled to lay a glove on them for the most part.
02:48Yeah, I think there was lots of elements of the performance to be happy about. Obviously,
02:53grinding it out with a superb defensive performance really is quite impressive. West
02:58Brom have a lot to play for this season. They're really pushing towards the playoffs themselves.
03:03They could have really done with the win to sort of keep them in the hunt. It's not over for them
03:07yet, but I thought they really put it on Sunderland at times and it was really heartening
03:13to see that spirit that Phil mentions. I thought the back line, by and large, were great. I thought
03:18Alan Brown was maybe a little bit exposed, but he got to grips with the game and that back
03:24defensive unit, I think, is quite interesting going forward. I think it's difficult, isn't it,
03:30because Sunderland did so well defensively. They got the goal from a set piece, but in an attacking
03:34sense, there wasn't a great deal there. I think heading into the playoffs, you'd like to see a
03:38little bit more, but we are greedy as fans, aren't we? Because I remember when Sunderland was scoring
03:43goals earlier on in the season, we were talking about, well, we never seem to make the best from
03:48set pieces and score from set pieces. Now we've won two games with two clean sheets, two set pieces,
03:53and now everyone's sort of gone, well, we need to start scoring from open play. It's funny how
03:58it works, but I think it was a really positive performance in a defensive sense, but I just hope
04:04Sunderland can click now, attack-wise, coming into the playoff campaign.
04:12James just mentioned him there, Phil. Obviously, we spoke a lot about Alan Brown last week, last
04:17time we did the podcast. He was really impressive in that first game at right back against Millwall,
04:21and you said that you'd quite like to see him given another run out there, just so we can get
04:27a better handle on how suitable he might be, and how much of a viable option, rather, he would be
04:32for Oliver's heading into a potential playoff campaign. I mean, from what you saw in the
04:37Midlands, do you still think that he is an option there? Did you see enough from him to suggest that
04:42he can actually play in this position? Definitely, I think so. I would have no
04:48concerns, really, about Brown playing there. Obviously, you want two natural full-backs
04:52there. If he can, if Dennis Irvine can get fit for the playoffs, then obviously, I think you would go
04:57with him and Hulme, but I wouldn't personally have too many concerns about Brown playing there. I
05:01think James is right in that, at the start of the game, I thought Mikey Johnston started really,
05:05really brightly, caused him a lot of problems. Maybe the sort of, not just Brown, in terms of
05:10the connection with Roberts in front of him, the positioning, maybe there seemed to be a lot of
05:13space for Styles and Johnston, but I thought Brown got better and better, and certainly there,
05:18I don't know how long it would have been off the top of my head, 25 minutes, half an hour,
05:21that he was on the pitch in the second half. I thought he was really, really good. I thought he
05:24used all his experience. He was sort of slowing the game down when he needed to. He was making
05:28good decisions on the ball to sort of get someone out of trouble and defended really strongly.
05:33There was one where, I can't remember exactly, I think it might have been Alex Mauer who sort of
05:37burst into the box and Brown was just there and just stepped across him and just lent in and sort
05:43of shut the attack down. I think what I really like about Brown is he just gets more experience
05:48on the pitch. I think that's something that, you know, we've talked about someone's game
05:51management and their experience at times this season, not being there, especially away from home,
05:55and I just think Brown's been there and done it, and I think you can see that. You can see that he
05:58doesn't get flustered by the game situation, by the atmosphere, so I don't think it's like
06:04plan A by any stretch of the imagination, but it's not something I would have a huge amount
06:08of concern over, and as I say, I really like being able to just get that bit of added experience on
06:12the pitch. I personally, I don't know what James thinks, but I thought in the second half you could
06:16really feel his experience, and I think it really benefited someone as they were kind of
06:20slowing West Brom down and preventing them from really creating too much.
06:26Yeah, he's smart, he's clever, isn't he? I think you can definitely see that. I mentioned on the
06:30podcast last week, but he's played in the Championship with Preston for like, I think
06:33it's 11 or 12 years, so he knows how to do a bit, and I think he did grow into the game.
06:39Mikey Johnson, by the way, what a typical Tony Mowbray player he is, by the way,
06:44flashes of just absolute brilliance, but end product not there, maybe needs an arm around
06:49the shoulder, but could just be absolutely fantastic if it all clicks from one day,
06:53and I thought, although he did struggle in the first, I would say, 20, 30 minutes, Brown,
06:58he did get the grips of them eventually, and I think that was signified by him having to
07:03go off in the second half and Mowbray trying to switch things up.
07:08Obviously, there's lots and lots of stuff we can discuss with regards to Sunderland's own
07:13situation. It's probably best to sort of unpack it piece by piece. Since we last did a podcast,
07:19Phil, it's been confirmed that Tommy Watson will be leaving Sunderland. He will be joining Brighton
07:24Povalvi and deal worth around £10 million at the end of the season. I mean, before we get into the
07:30fact that he didn't get onto the pitch on Saturday and Eliza Maenda was preferred and all of that
07:35sort of stuff, I mean, what is there to say about that deal? Because the timing of it felt almost a
07:41little bit weird, but at the same time, is there a certain amount of it, you know, it's quite an
07:46understandable deal for Sunderland to strike. Yeah, I think it's like it was one of those weird
07:52ones by the time and was weird, but I don't think anyone was surprised by the actual news itself,
07:56because obviously Brighton have come in from in the last two transfer windows. It was pretty
08:00obvious in January that although a final agreement was never reached, that Brighton were pretty close
08:05to getting to the point where Sunderland were happy to do the deal. And obviously, I think it's
08:09fairly clear now that if Sunderland had been able to get a replacement, they would have let Watson
08:12go. All the while, Watson just ticks closer and closer at the end of his contract without any
08:20sign of an extension being agreed. So, I don't think the news itself was surprising.
08:23It was interesting in terms of, I think, the press conference before the West Brom game,
08:27which will have been last Thursday. I was a little bit surprised by how kind of blunt
08:31Lebris was with it in terms of he didn't seem particularly impressed with how it all
08:35kind of shaken out and his comments were quite direct, I would suggest. And it felt like,
08:41you know, Meander and then Aleksic coming on on Saturday, you know, felt like a bit of a
08:45continuation of that. But after the game at the Hawthorns and certainly speaking to Lebris
08:51this afternoon, he was absolutely clear that Watson would play between now and the end of
08:56the season. Obviously, the Mundell injury has kind of accelerated that, but I honestly wouldn't be
09:00surprised if he started tomorrow or Saturday. And that was a pretty clear inference from Lebris that
09:04he would use him. He had no concerns about him and he would put him in the team. So,
09:09it's a really strange situation. I think the not ideal side of it is it puts a lot more scrutiny
09:15on Watson's performance. A poor performance won't just be a poor performance anymore. It'll be a
09:19poor performance with question marks on commitment and all that stuff. I think someone's hope is that
09:24by the time we get to the playoffs, announcing it now means that it'll be sort of yesterday's
09:28news and that the dust will have settled on it when it really matters. So, I mean, only time
09:32will tell on that. But having initially thought last week that maybe Watson's game time was going
09:37to be reduced, it seems fairly clear to me that we're going to see him start at some point over
09:41the next week and then listen it up to him. If he plays really well and he's at it, then he'll
09:45answer that question and he'll sort of force his way into the team. So, yeah, it's going to be
09:49really interesting to watch that one develop over the next few weeks because it is an odd situation.
09:53I don't know if there's any two ways about that. I mean, from a certain perspective, James,
09:59Christian Speakman came out and spoke and said that there were no real
10:03reservations from their point of view about Watson's committedness to this promotion push,
10:08that his head is still very much with it despite the fact that he struck this deal with Brighton.
10:12I mean, something that Phil's alluded to, there's the fact there is going to be this heightened
10:16scrutiny on him and a player who is still yet to reach 20 senior appearances for Sunderland as
10:22well. I mean, he's a player who is obviously inexperienced. He's going to fluctuate in
10:27and out of form. Now to have this extra, I mean, I don't know if burden is the right word,
10:31but a certain amount of expectation on his shoulders. I mean, that can't be easy for him.
10:36No, it can't. And it's a very interesting situation. And I think you mentioned there
10:42about Tommy Watson not yet having 20 senior appearances. I think that's probably part of
10:48the reason why he's decided to leave as well. And I'll explain my reasoning behind this,
10:53and this is not a dig at Sunderland because I actually think Sunderland have handled this
10:56pretty well in terms of they tried to convince Tommy Watson to stay. They wanted to open
11:01contract negotiations. They've given him a pathway through to the first team. They've played him.
11:08I think they've handled it pretty well. They've had to take the money now.
11:11I think it gets forgotten as well that Tommy Watson almost didn't sign his first professional
11:15deal at Sunderland. There was a little bit of a question mark about whether he was going to go
11:19then and he didn't. He ended up staying. I do think this comes down to it being the flip side
11:26to promoting a Chris Rigg to the first team at the age of 15, 16, 17. And Sunderland's decision
11:34to do that has been absolutely justified completely because he's a fantastic player.
11:37But it does sort of provide other players with the notion that maybe they should be getting that
11:44push too and quickly. Now it's very hard to have three or four or five 16, 17-year-olds in your
11:52team at once. So Sunderland decided to go with Rigg, probably justified because he's likely the
11:57best player I'm thinking of as well. Mason Koch, Josh Robertson as well went to Brighton.
12:04So when you do push somebody like Chris Rigg, I do think you do get a slight unseen flip side
12:10of it. And that's probably part of the reason why Tommy Watson has decided to leave Sunderland.
12:15I look towards the back end of last season. Should he have played more under Mike Dodds?
12:19Very difficult situation that Sunderland found themselves in. They were in a really, really bad
12:23run of form. Was it the right time to bring Watson in? They had Jack Clark on the left. Mike Dodds
12:27felt the responsibility to win games for Sunderland, fair enough. But could they have done more there?
12:32I don't know. Not my job really to sort of pass judgment on that. But I think it's a very
12:39interesting situation. It's clearly been simmering under the surface for a little while.
12:44In terms of the rest of the season, I have really mixed feelings because part of me wants to
12:50believe that Tommy Watson's a really good professional, and I'm sure he is. But
12:55the other half of me is like, isn't it human nature that you might drop off when you know
12:59your future's sort of secure elsewhere? I don't know. I'm not a professional footballer. I can't
13:05answer that. And I'm not questioning Tommy Watson. I just think there is a human nature
13:09element as well. And the situation as it is, I'm sure he's read some fans' comments because
13:14understandably, some fans aren't going to be happy with his decision. And is that going to affect
13:19him? And he's a young lad just finding his way in life as well as football. So I think it's
13:24complicated. And I think it's a multi-layered. And it's an unfortunate situation. I don't think
13:28it's like terminal or anything like that. I think it can be worked through. But yeah, that's my two
13:33pence on it anyway. I mean, is there almost an element of misfortune here as well, Phil,
13:38when you think about the fact that the reason that Watson wasn't getting minutes earlier in
13:42the season was because, aside from the fact he was emerging himself, was that Romain Mundell was in
13:45such fantastic form. Obviously, Mundell picks up that injury that rules him out for such a long
13:50time. And it looks as if Watson's time has come. He scores that brace and then he goes and gets
13:55injured in the next game. And he is also sidelined. And so suddenly you're in a position where,
14:00you know, you would imagine that if Mundell had been out for that length of time and Watson was
14:03fit and ready to go, he would have had a good two, three months really establishing himself
14:08as that first choice option. That's been taken away from him. I mean,
14:12is some of this just circumstance conspiring against him and Sunday?
14:16Yeah, I don't think there have been too many opportunities really where Watson has been
14:20available and he's sort of been not picked, if you like, in terms of James mentioned that period
14:24towards the end of last season when Watson was doing really well through the 21s, wasn't he?
14:29And that sort of run to the playoff final. Other than that, there haven't been too many times
14:35where Watson's been available and he's not been in around the squad. I think that it's a really
14:40interesting question in terms of would Watson have signed a new deal had it been playing week in,
14:46week out over the last 18 months? I'm not sure that the evidence is there suggesting necessarily
14:51would have. As James mentioned, you know, there was a massive question mark over him staying
14:55when it came to agreeing his first professional contract. And if I remember rightly, he had a
15:00fairly significant back injury, which sort of impacted his preseason. And then he did sign
15:04the deal. And that was kind of a bit of a slow burn in terms of him getting back to full fitness.
15:08So, listen, we'll never know the answer to it. And I think James does make an interesting point
15:12in terms of that phase towards the end of last season, might things have changed if he'd sort
15:15of played regularly then. But it does feel like this has been inevitable for a while. It does
15:20feel like that the interest from the top tier is something that Watson's been really interested in
15:24for a period of time. And it is a little bit different with Brighton, because like with
15:28Brighton, you do see it and do give young players opportunities. Like sometimes you see a young
15:32player move to a Premier League club and you really just can't get your head around it because
15:36you think, well, where are the minutes going to be, you know? And it's not necessarily the case
15:39of Brighton. So it's going to be, you know, we'll only know in two, three years time, really,
15:43whether he's made the right decision. But I have to say that I'm probably, my personal opinion is
15:48I'm sceptical as to how much someone could have done differently, because I think one of the main
15:53reasons he hasn't featured much is injury. And I think certainly the direction over a long period
15:58of time is that he's been not sort of pushing to leave, but certainly very, very interested in the
16:05offers that are on the table. So I think it's just one of those things. And I think James is absolutely
16:09right to raise that point about his first professional contract, because in the circumstances
16:13where he very, very nearly left for what would have been compensation fee, to be looking at a
16:17potential £11 million deal, however, what is it, 18 months down the line, is pretty good business.
16:22So I think it's disappointing in a lot of ways, but I think financially, I don't think you can
16:26quibble too much with how someone did, you know, where someone ended up with this.
16:30And from Watson's perspective, it's a little bit of a contradiction in terms, isn't it? Because
16:34Brighton, as Phil mentions, is an absolutely fantastic club. They handle young players
16:37really well. But it's perhaps a little bit mifty, he hasn't played more for Sunderland, but he's
16:41going to go to Brighton. And I would imagine it's going to take him a little chunk of time to play
16:46for them in the Premier League. He might even go out on loan again. So I do find that aspect
16:51interesting. But listen, it is a very, very short career. As we know, these players have to make
16:55decisions. I'm sure there's finances involved as well. But it's disappointing, actually, isn't it,
17:00Jase? Because we've both, well, and Phil, we've both really enjoyed Tommy Watson's rise to
17:05prominence and we have covered pretty much the whole thing. I think he's a marvellous player,
17:10fantastic player. And I do wish him well, but I just think, and this is easy for me to say,
17:15sat at home in Grangetown, Sunderland on me, you know, my salary job. But if it was me playing
17:21for Sunderland and I was 18 years old, I'd be sticking around a little longer. But I fully
17:26accept that I'm not a professional footballer with the talent and drive and determination
17:32like Tommy Watson. So, yeah, the fan in me can't help but be disappointed.
17:39I think that's something that I've seen a couple of people sort of mention,
17:43sort of sticking in the crowd a little bit, is the fact that he is obviously, you know,
17:46a product of the club's youth academy. He came through and it was very much his boyhood team.
17:52And then Sunderland are on the brink of a potential, potential return to the Premier
17:56League and a sort of walk away from it now. I think there are a lot of Sunderland fans who
18:00are looking at it and sort of finding that a little bit difficult to digest, if you like,
18:04for the reasons that you just sort of mentioned there. But like you say, it's not always as
18:08simple as that, is it? You know, it's very easy to look at it from a sort of hypothetical
18:13fan perspective. But when it's your actual career and when you're sort of deciding where
18:16your aspirations lie and what you want to achieve, and especially contending with the fact that,
18:20you know, presuming Romain Mundell doesn't go anywhere, there's someone who could be facing
18:24up to another season where he's not necessarily getting the minutes that he wants. You know,
18:27it is a difficult decision and I imagine it's a difficult decision. Sorry, Phil.
18:33No, I was just going to say, I think the other layer of this as well is it's not all about
18:35Watson, it's about Sunderland. So Sunderland could have put their foot down and said,
18:38we're not entertaining any offers until the summer. And that's the other thing.
18:42They've decided that they are happy to do business now, primarily, I think, because
18:46they're looking at it from a business perspective and saying, well, if Watson gets a bad injury
18:49between now and the end of the season, we're potentially missing out on a £10, £11 deal.
18:53So yes, Sunderland's first choice was to give Watson a new contract. But you know,
18:58let's keep in mind as well, they did not, they weren't forced into doing this deal now. They
19:01felt it was the right time because of his contract situation. But, you know, they also
19:06ultimately made the decision to do this now. They could have said, look, we're not discussing this
19:10till the end of the season. So we also have to have that balance as well when we have this
19:14discussion. This is not purely driven by Watson. Ultimately, Sunderland have made a decision to do
19:18the deal now, you know, and they'll be held to account, you know, based on what happens between
19:22now and the end of the season, just as much as whatever we think of Watson's decision as well.
19:27I think a lot of people haven't asked the question, like, why now? Why sell them now?
19:32Correct me if I'm wrong, Phil, but I get the impression that Sunderland have probably managed
19:36to squeeze a little bit more money out of Brighton now because Brighton want to get the deal done.
19:40They want to secure the player. They've had designs on him for a long time, haven't they?
19:44Whereas if they would have waited, Brighton might not have necessarily had the opportunity
19:49to sign him straight away. There might have been other offers. Sunderland probably wouldn't have
19:53got as much money. So I think that answers that question, doesn't it, really? A lot of people
19:58have said, you know, why now? And I really think now is the best time to do it financially for
20:02Sunderland if they're going to sell him. Yeah, I think that it's probably a very
20:06similar deal to the one that was on the table on deadline day. Maybe it isn't quite as big as the
20:11eventual offer that was on the table on deadline day. But I think you're right in that Sunderland
20:16ultimately have to make a pragmatic business decision in terms of will this deal be on the
20:19table in the summer? Maybe. It won't be if Watson gets an injury. It won't be if, you know, Brighton
20:26look down another road and go for another option. So, yeah, I think ultimately it's that decision
20:33is based on the fact that, you know, they can't guarantee this offer will be there in the summer
20:37for form, for injury, for the fact that it'll be even close at the end of his contract.
20:42So I think that's why they've made the decision now. And isn't it like, you know, there are pros
20:46and cons to it, aren't there? And I think Sunderland's view is that rather than letting the speculation
20:51sort of gather pace over the next few weeks, they'd much rather get it done now so that it
20:56kind of becomes yesterday's news, if you like, by the time we really hit the point where they
20:59might need Watson in a playoff campaign. I mean, we've obviously mentioned the transfer fee
21:05a few times as well. I'll come to you on this, James. I mean, it's £10 million for a player
21:12who's played 17 times for Sunderland in the first team. Obviously, injuries, circumstances sort of
21:17limited that number. You presume you would have played a lot more this season, but you still only
21:21made those 17 appearances. Is there an element of this almost being Sunderland laying down a
21:26marker and saying, we are going to demand top money for these players, because there is going to be
21:31interest in Chris Wright. There is going to be interest in Joe Bellingham. You know, you've seen
21:35the reports. You can only assume they're going to gather pace, regardless of what division
21:39Sunderland are in next season. Does this suggest that Sunderland are going, actually, you know what,
21:43if you want these players, you are going to have to pay for them? Yeah, I think Sunderland do drive
21:48a hard bargain. I think the days of Sunderland sort of being rolled over in the transfer market
21:53have gone. I'm thinking back to the Premier League area, where they would pay over the odds and
21:57wouldn't recoup any fees, would they? Hardly ever did Sunderland sell a player for money in the
22:01Premier League. Certainly didn't make a profit on them. You know, they did it with Stewart. They did
22:05it with Jack Clarke. They're very much deals that have worked for the club. I feel quite confident
22:11in that aspect of the management. I do think throwing the tape forward, and a lot of this
22:14depends on, obviously, which division Sunderland's in, but we've sort of been led to believe and or
22:23have assumed, perhaps, that Sunderland will maybe sell one player a summer or one player a season
22:30to fund the club and to reinvest in the transfer market. But we've already had a big sale in Tommy
22:35Watson. Will there be another one in the summer? I would imagine so, because Joe Bellingham's
22:41that good that I think he could potentially go, regardless of whether Sunderland get promoted to
22:45the Premier League. Chris Rigg, I feel, might stick around a little bit longer, but if massive money
22:49comes in, you know, should Sunderland not get promoted to the Premier League, there would be
22:53clubs sniffing around, Trey Hulme and other players. So then it becomes a really, really
22:58interesting question of the ownership model, in a sense of how many players would the club sell or
23:04consider selling? Because before long, you might have a big chunk of change in your back pocket,
23:09but you've also got half a squad to rebuild, as Phil's dog barks, or Jason's dog barks in the
23:15background, complete throw me off. But yeah, I think this summer's going to be very interesting.
23:21We're both on mute, so I think... Well, I haven't got a dog here, so...
23:24Or a dog near you. I've just muted in response to the dog barking.
23:32But yeah, somebody please take the microphone off me, because I'm lost now.
23:37I'm going to start woofing.
23:40I mean, obviously, the whole Watson debate has been shifted into a much sharper focus,
23:49in some sense, because Romain Mundell did pick up that injury against West Brom at the weekend.
23:55I mean, obviously, you spoke to Regis earlier today. I mean, what was the sort of messaging
24:00there, and is there any expectation as to how long he could be out of action for?
24:04No, I mean, it doesn't sound great. It looks like he's going to see a specialist,
24:08so there's obviously a fairly significant issue. So I'm loathe to speculate too much,
24:12but you know, the briefs was asked directly if Mundell's season might be over, and he did say
24:18there was a possibility. So I think it's obvious that we're not looking at a week or two issue.
24:23So especially then, you're already getting to the point where if he misses the Easter fixtures,
24:28which seems very likely, then it's going to be really hard, isn't it, for him to get any match
24:31time before the play-off. So it's definitely not good news, and I think it just underlines the
24:37fact that someone would have to make the best of the situation with Watson. I don't think they can
24:40really afford to sort of, you know, be too sort of... they need to show a bit of pragmatism,
24:48I think, because ultimately, as I said, they've made the decision to sell Watson.
24:51They've sanctioned this now. They need to get him involved because, you know, even if we decide
24:57that because of the situation with Brighton, you know, Watson maybe shouldn't be first choice,
24:59and we should look to play Mienda more than Watson. It's not feasible, really, to imagine
25:04going through these six games with the Saison 1 squad without using Watson. So that's certainly
25:08seen to be the briefs' view as well. So, yeah, it's something that I think they're going to have
25:12to prepare to be without Mundell for a while, and as such, I think they're going to have to use Watson.
25:19I mean, you've really got a feel for him, James. He's been so unfortunate with injuries this season,
25:24but also, you know, from the team's perspective, I think it's fair to say that Sunderland have
25:28consistently looked like a brighter attacking force when they do have the option of Romain
25:31Mundell being able to cut in from that left-hand side under his right foot, and really sort of
25:36opening teams up in that way. Well, we ruined it, didn't we, on the last podcast by telling
25:41everybody that it's going to be fantastic and Sunderland are going to have Lefebvre playing
25:45in behind Isidore and Mundell on the left and Roberts on the right. But, yeah,
25:50commentators curse, I guess, but, yeah, he's a very talented player. Disappointing to see him
25:55go out again with an injury, I suspect. He could be a massive, massive player for us next season,
26:00and that's the sort of... The question is, depending on how serious the injury is, is that do you...
26:06If there's a chance, do you try and get him back for a play-off campaign or even a play-off final,
26:11or do you just let him recuperate until the summer, get a full pre-season?
26:16I suspect they'll probably do the last of those two options, just thinking of, like, when they
26:21rushed our GLEC back in the play-off semis against Luton. I know he wanted to play, but that didn't
26:27end too well, really, and his injury issues have persisted. So, I think just let him recover for me.
26:33But it is a massive blow to the team, I think, because he was starting to really find his feet
26:38again. Obviously, that goal against Preston was a massive blow to the team, and I think
26:42because he was starting to really find his feet again. Obviously, that goal against Preston,
26:46probably the goal of a season, actually, from just a general technical standpoint,
26:50it was absolutely marvellous. So, yes, gutted, really, for him.
26:56But, I mean, as we've sort of mentioned, Phil, Sunderland do have options beyond Watson as well.
27:00Eliza Maendo was the man who came on at the weekend. He obviously won the free-kick that
27:04Trey Hulme scored the winning goal from and generally looked really bright. I mean,
27:08I know it's perhaps not his favourite position and arguably not even the position that the
27:14Brits would ideally like to be playing him in. But given the way that he's come on this season,
27:18I mean, he is a real option for Sunderland, isn't he?
27:21Well, he looked an awful lot better there on Saturday than he did when he played in that
27:25position earlier in the season. And, you know, because we talked about the situation in the
27:29game and the fact that Sunderland probably were quite a way short of their best in the ball,
27:32you didn't see a lot of it. But I'm struggling to remember a time, really,
27:36where he didn't make something happen or make a positive contribution on the ball,
27:39you know, in terms of getting past his marker, creating some space, whether it was winning the
27:43free-kick. It was obviously his, sort of, he was fouled for Hulme's free-kick. Really, really good,
27:48sort of, mature, impactful performance. I can't really praise Maendo enough, to be honest. Pretty
27:53much every time he's been on the pitch, the last sort of four or five months, he's made something
27:57happen. I have no issues with him being. So, I think he will, all things being equal, I think
28:03he deserves to get a chance to play in that position, if it means getting him in the team.
28:08I just think the flip side of it is, obviously, there's six games, isn't there, until the playoffs.
28:13And at some point, you're going to need Maendo to play up front to ease the load on Isidore,
28:17because, obviously, you don't want Isidore to burn out for the playoffs. So, I think Maendo,
28:21sort of, should have the opportunity to make that position his own. But you definitely need
28:25to have a bit of pragmatism as well and make sure you don't overplay him or Isidore. So,
28:30I think that while Maendo proved that he's very, very capable of being successful in that position,
28:34I think there is going to have to be plenty of rotation as well in the next few games,
28:38whether that's Watson or Aleksic or even Lefebvre, potentially, off the bench.
28:43It's so interesting, isn't it? Because when Wilson Isidore came to the club, there was this
28:47whole, is he a left winger or is he a striker? What have we really got here now? Common consensus
28:52is that he's a striker now and he's not really discussed as somebody that can play off the left
28:57anymore. And I sort of agree, to be honest, because I think he definitely is best going
29:01through the middle. But I agree with Phil. I thought Maendo was really, really promising on
29:05the left. I was surprised to see him come on ahead of Watson and a little bit worried, actually,
29:10because I know it's not his best position. And he has looked, to be brutally honest, fairly poor
29:14when he's played off the left before. But I thought he showed some really good touches,
29:18obviously won the free kick for the goal. He's got such good skill and he loves G in the crowd
29:24at the end, which I'd never get bored of watching. I think it's fantastic. It's one of my favourite
29:28things about following Sunderland away at the moment is Eliza Maendo going nuts with the crowd
29:33after. It's absolutely fantastic. And actually, it was nice to hear Tony Mowbray talk about him,
29:37Phil, after the game. I thought what Mowbray said about Maendo was really, really nice.
29:43Yeah, it was. I don't think there's any sort of surprise in that. I think it was something that
29:50we've talked about on this podcast from day one when Maendo rolled up. He needed some time to
29:54adjust and he didn't quite click from on the pitch last season. Obviously, he had some injury issues
29:58as well, which is a big part of that. The vibe behind the scenes was always that he was someone
30:04who'd made a really positive impression in terms of his attitude, the way he trained, the work he
30:08put in, improving his language skills and picked up the language pretty quickly. He made a big
30:13impression on people behind the scenes just in terms of his application. And I think that was
30:18very much what Mowbray said to us, wasn't it? That although maybe he didn't have the best of
30:21seasons last year, he was someone who he had a lot of time for and really felt he had a big future
30:26because of how attentive he was and how willing he was to learn. He's getting the rewards from
30:31that now. Obviously, a huge amount of credit has to go to Lebris because Lebris has backed him,
30:36even at times when it seems obvious now because he's quick and he gets past players,
30:41he's got an eye for goal and why wouldn't you pick him? But it's not always been that way this
30:44season, has it? There have been plenty of times, especially at the start of the year,
30:47when Lebris went with him and there were eyebrows raised. So, yeah, I think he's a real credit to
30:53himself and it's incredibly exciting when you think how young he is, how fast he's developed
30:56this year, to think about where he could get to in the next year. It looks like an unbelievable
31:01bit of business, really, doesn't it, at the moment? When we talk about how hard it is to
31:05sign strikers and some of their over-inflated fees, when you look at Miander's progress,
31:09it's really exciting.
31:11Yeah, it really is, isn't it? It really is. Just one last quick one, Phil, before we wrap it up.
31:16Obviously, Joe Bellingham playing a slightly different role at the weekend. I know there's
31:20been a few people asking. I mean, what was the thinking behind that from Lebris?
31:26He just fancied a change by the sounds of it, to be honest. He didn't offer a particularly
31:30deep tactical insight. No, listen, I think Lebris has now… now that the playoffs are pretty much
31:37secured, I think while he wants to keep the momentum going, I think we're starting to see
31:41him shift and approach a little bit. I think he wants to try some new things. I think he
31:44wants to look at some different combinations, put plays in different situations. I think
31:48if you remember Dan Neal, I think it was Portsmouth away, Dan Neal was suspended and Joe played
31:54in that deeper role and he played really, really well. Lebris said afterwards, after
31:58this game, that A, he just thought it would be good to freshen things up a little bit
32:01for both of them because they've had such a big workload this season and B, it's just
32:05a good time to look at a few different bits and bobs and, you know, what happens if Job
32:09got suspended and he needs to push Dan Neal forward? What happens if Dan Neal gets suspended
32:13for a playoff game? You know, there's all these different things that could happen
32:17and I think he just wanted to try something new. And actually, I think Job, I don't think it's
32:21his best position because I think it takes away from his ability to get into the box
32:24and potentially score a goal. But I think we've seen from the couple of times he's played there
32:29now that he's absolutely no issues in playing that role and I think it's just a bit of reassurance
32:33for Lebris, really, that if for whatever reason he needs to do it in the playoffs,
32:38there's nothing to fear doing that. Can I just add to that by saying I absolutely
32:43love Dan Neal. I think his performance is really, really good at the moment. He's just a solid
32:48seven out of ten every week, approaching an eight and a nine in some games and I just think
32:53what he does for the team and the way he's grown into his role this season has been really,
32:58really impressive and I really, really hope that Sullen can get his contract situation sorted in
33:03the summer because I think he's fantastic. I really, really, really do. Yeah, he's another
33:09one, isn't he? He's come on leaps and bounds in recent seasons. It's so good to see. That's all
33:14we've got time for in this week's show. Join us again next week when we'll be discussing all the
33:18latest Sunderland news and developments. In the meantime, follow all the latest Blackcats news
33:21on the Sunderland Echo and give us a follow on social media as well. Thanks to James,
33:26thanks to Phil, thanks to you for listening. We'll see you next week.