Sunderland's transfer window analysed after memorable Middlesbrough win...
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00:30Hello, welcome to the Raw podcast brought to you by the Sunderland Echo. My name is
00:40Jason Jones, joined by James Copley and Phil Smith, as always, and we have got an unbelievable
00:46amount of football to be getting through this week. Obviously, as we're recording this January
00:51transfer window is just shut. Sunderland doing a couple of pieces of business saying goodbye
00:55to a couple of players as well. And then, of course, Sunderland played Middlesbrough
00:59at the Riverside on Monday night and recorded a rare win at the Riverside as well. 3-2 victory
01:04in dramatic circumstances, I think it's fair to say. Phil, it was a match that sort of
01:09veered back and forth in terms of its momentum, but did you feel Sunderland were ultimately
01:13good value for those three points on Teesside?
01:16Yeah, I think so. I think by the end of the game they were. I think they were clearly
01:21fortunate to only be 1-0 down and then to get a goal by a deflection. I think that anybody
01:27who watched the game, anybody who was there could see that Middlesbrough were much, much
01:31stronger in the first half an hour. I thought their pressing was much more aggressive than
01:36Sunderland's. And to be fair, as we know, we've watched them for a couple of years now
01:40and the vital character against Sunderland as well. They can move the ball really, really
01:44nicely. It's probably a game that summed up both teams a little bit in that they both
01:49can be outstanding at times and they can both frustrate the life out of their fan base,
01:54I think. But clearly, I think this season at least, I think it's obvious that Sunderland
01:59have a little bit more resilience, which is why they have the points gap that they do
02:03over Middlesbrough and we probably saw that last night as well because Middlesbrough feel
02:07they let the game get away from them after that opening half an hour. But I think on
02:11balance of play, if you look at the chances Sunderland had over the course of 90 minutes,
02:15I do think they deserved it. I think Middlesbrough were really struggling with the court with
02:19them after the first half an hour. Yes, there was a deflection for the goal, that was fortunate.
02:25Yes, the winner was an own goal, but that was all about the phase quality, so he kind
02:28of created that chance. And Sunderland had a couple of massive chances after that. If
02:32you think about Mienda going through on goal, Bavada falling over the ball, which wasn't
02:36ideal, but that was a pretty big chance. I think on balance of play, at the end of the
02:42game, Sunderland deserved it, albeit they definitely had a little bit of luck in the
02:46first half an hour for sure.
02:49I mean, we'll come on to Enzo Laffey in a moment because I know how highly you rate
02:54his performance last night, Phil, but James, really vital three points as well when you
02:59think about what it means in terms of Sunderland just being able to keep pace with those teams.
03:05Yes, it was really important. I thought it was a tremendous game. First 30 minutes,
03:09obviously Sunderland were a little bit under the caution. I was genuinely quite worried,
03:12but this team always seemed to sort of bring it back round in terms of their mentality
03:16during games. I just thought it was a tremendous contest. I thought both sets of supporters
03:21were absolutely superb, made for a great atmosphere. Nobody wants to see Burnley leads
03:27nil-nil draw, a ball draw, and we certainly didn't get that here. It was a good contest,
03:33great to watch, really enjoyable fixture. There was no real referee in controversies.
03:39It was just a really good game of football. That win against Middlesbrough means that
03:43Sunderland surpassed last season's points total of 56 in 16 games fewer, which I suppose underlines
03:50how bad last season was and how well they've done this season. Sunderland haven't lost in
03:55the Championship this year, they're still unbeaten at home in the league. I think it's the first
03:59league double home and away over Middlesbrough since 1962, so there's lots to take away from
04:05the fixture. A remarkable performance, a remarkable evening. The scenes at the end,
04:12in front of the away end, were great to watch, great to witness. It's just one of those games
04:17where it just gives you a little bit of a suspicion that something special could be brewing.
04:23As you mentioned, Jason, in terms of the Championship table, it's really important
04:26because it just means that Sunderland are three points off those promotion places now. It widens
04:31the gap again to sixth and seventh place. I think it's all to play for, really, as Sunderland have
04:36some huge games coming up. Leeds away, jumps out. There's so much football to be played,
04:41there'll be twists and turns along the way. It's shaping up for a really, really interesting and
04:47fun end to Sunderland's season, for sure. It's crazy stuff, that, isn't it? It's been,
04:53what, 62, 63 years since they've done the league double over Barrett. It's just absolutely
04:59phenomenal. Obviously, the man who made such a huge difference on the night, Phil, was Enzo Lefebvre.
05:05Obviously, he got the assist for Isidor's goal and then produced a real moment of magic. I think
05:10it's fair to say, in the build-up to the own goal, what did you make of his display? I know you went
05:16above and beyond in terms of your match rating for him. I gave him a 10, which maybe was me
05:22getting a little bit carried away. I think he was the single biggest difference between two
05:28fairly evenly matched teams. I think that's the main thing. Probably, I think we saw Middlesbrough,
05:32as I mentioned earlier, their weakness, defending their own box, I think was a big factor as well.
05:36But I think the thing about Lefebvre was just, I don't remember him really doing anything in the
05:41game that didn't come off. Everything he did was the right decision at the right time.
05:47There were times when it was genuinely a bit breathtaking. He seemed to see things on the pitch
05:51that, sorry, my greyhound's just come in for a cuddle. He's distracting me.
05:56But he seemed to see things on the pitch that nobody else could. I think he created so many
06:03chances. I think that's the thing about Lefebvre. Often, when you have these really creative
06:07players with a lot of tricks in them, they can sometimes feel as if they're not particularly,
06:11I think efficient is the word Lebris would use. It's almost like tricks for the sake of doing it.
06:17But with Lefebvre, it always seems to end up with a chance. I think that's the really exciting thing.
06:21He's so direct. He makes things happen. He's a treat to watch, but he's actually really
06:24productive as well. I've been really lucky not to get an assist before last night's game.
06:30It did feel like a matter of time. I think it's so exciting. It feels like someone might have
06:34one of the absolute best players in the league. Whether that's going into an automatic promotion
06:40race, whether it's going into the playoffs, it just feels absolutely massive. You have to think
06:44he's only going to get better from here as well, which is pretty exciting.
06:48I mean, there's a couple of points to make, James. One being that we still haven't actually
06:52seen him in his preferred position through the middle, which is obviously a hugely exciting
06:56prospect. And then also, it would appear that him and Wilson Isidor are really building a good
07:02understanding. Obviously, we saw it in the build-up to Isidor's goal, but there were a couple
07:05of moments last night where Lefebvre just seemed to almost instinctively play into spaces, knowing
07:10that Isidor would be the man looking to get on the end of it.
07:13Yeah, the pass for Wilson Isidor's goal is absolutely fantastic, just to have that vision.
07:18Dan Dale actually spoke about it after the game against Middlesbrough that he seems to be
07:22developing a nice partnership with Dennis Sergeant and Job as well over on that left-hand side.
07:27That's forming a nice triangle. And yeah, he's clearly got that connection with Wilson,
07:30which is great. I thought Wilson's finish was like ice cold. I thought that was amazing to
07:35sit the goalkeeper down, to go around him and slot at home was absolutely fantastic.
07:41But yeah, there's not much else you can say about Lefebvre, really, as it was a virtuoso display.
07:47One of the best I've seen, really, in a Sunderland shirt away from home in the
07:51Championship. I thought it was absolutely fantastic. As Phil mentioned, everything he did
07:55came off. You know, Lebris is talking about that connection he has with the team now. It's taken a
08:00couple of games for his quality that really showed. And really interesting as well with
08:06Tommy Watson's at the club, which I'm sure will come on to, Romain Mundell coming back in.
08:11Lebris has mentioned that Lefebvre can play as a number 10 or a little bit further back as well.
08:19What happens when Sunderland start getting those options back? It's, again, quite an exciting
08:23prospect, really, with the running, with so many games coming thick and fast that you could
08:28see Enzo Lefebvre more centrally, with Mundell coming off the left and Wilson Isidoro up front.
08:33You've got Maender still hanging around, Pervade is back to fitness now, seemingly.
08:37Hopefully, a transfer soon to be announced for Sunderland as well, which, again, we'll come on to.
08:42So, all of a sudden, it's shaped up quite nicely in terms of squad depth. But, yeah, it was a genuine
08:49joy to watch at times last night. Enzo Lefebvre's performance was brilliant. But also a shout-out
08:55for that midfield as well, because I thought Dan Neal really got a hold of that game eventually.
09:00Job played his part and that Borough midfield is really, really decent. I'm a big Hayden Hackney fan.
09:04I thought he was fantastic. You know, his pass for Middlesbrough's opener was really, really good
09:11and his goal is absolutely phenomenal. So, I think that midfield three of Rigg, Job and Neal have done
09:17well to get the better of that arm wrestle away from home. And obviously, Lefebvre played a part
09:21in that as well, because he was playing centrally at times as well, cutting through the midfield.
09:27He was playing centrally at times as well, cutting and drifting in. So, hugely exciting times.
09:34Yeah, it was a really intriguing watch that, wasn't it? The midfield battle. I think it's
09:37fair to say you're probably looking at two of the, if not the two, best young midfields in
09:41the division between Sunderland and Middlesbrough. And I thought that, you're absolutely right,
09:44I thought Dan Neal, the way that he sort of, after that opening half-hour, which maybe was a little
09:48bit rocky for Sunderland, sort of really took it by the scruff of the neck, starting to dictate
09:52tempo, obviously got the goal through the deflection. But I thought he was hugely pivotal
09:56in Sunderland being able to sort of, like you say, wrestle back control of that match.
10:01Just a word on Wilson Isidore, Phil, as well. Obviously, you know, he's had some difficult
10:05moments in recent weeks, I think it's fair to say. But looks like he's sort of rolled those
10:09out pretty nicely. Obviously, got his goal last night, and then also has put pen to paper on a
10:14permanent deal at the Stadium of Light. I mean, not a bad week for the Frenchman.
10:20I completely forgot that had happened, Jason, until you mentioned it there. Yeah,
10:23there's been such a busy few days, hasn't it? Yeah, I think it's like, it's no surprise that,
10:30you know, other clubs, I think, were starting to look at that situation and wonder if there was
10:33an opportunity because of how well he'd been playing. I think as we've kind of reported all
10:37along, Sunderland's in such a strong position, I think contractually there was never any risk
10:41of them really missing out. But I think it just gives Isidore that clarity. I think it's been
10:48clear since day one that he's desperate to sort of have a home here, I think, and feel like he
10:52can really settle and put some roots down. And so I think it's only a good thing really going
10:57into the rest of the season. Yeah, it's honestly such a good bit of recruitment from Sunderland.
11:02Like, strikers are so hard to find, particularly like athletic strikers. And, you know, I really
11:08thought Sunderland were going to struggle to find another Ross Stewart. And they absolutely have
11:13done. I think there are so many similarities in the way the two play. They're good poachers,
11:18they're good finishers. So they're very, very useful if you're playing against a low block.
11:22But they also just terrify defences. And I think you saw that. I think, to be fair,
11:25both defences struggled last night, Sunderland with Bergzorg early on and Middlesbrough with
11:29Isidore. But I think, I mean, Sunderland can almost play two ways. They can be really dangerous
11:33on the break because they've got Isidore's pace. But at the same time, as we saw with that goal
11:38against Plymouth, he can be really sort of deadly with those first touch finishes as well. So I
11:43think you have to say it's an excellent bit of recruitment. I know they have paid a lot more
11:46than they paid for Ross Stewart, but I think there are some similarities there in that they've picked
11:51a player who wasn't even necessarily seen as a centre-forward out and out for a lot of his career
11:57and they picked him up for an absolute bargain. And I think, as I say, the combination of his
12:01finishing and his pace as well. I think if you were to say the one, you know, obviously there
12:06are millions of factors, but if you had to pick one factor, why Sunderland are where they are now
12:11and why they were where they were this time last year, you know, it's Isidore, isn't it?
12:15It's the fact that they're a good team as a clinical finisher. I think it really isn't
12:19simple as that. So, yeah, I think you're right to bring that up because, like I say, I'd completely
12:24forgotten about it, which means it definitely wasn't under the radar of the business. But
12:29nice to know as well, like whatever happens at season, you start next season with Isidore,
12:33your main striker is in the building, it's done, no uncertainty. I think it's a really good one,
12:39just to have that kind of wrapped up nice and early. First Sunderland striker to reach 10 goals
12:44during the season since Russ Stewart during 22-23 and he bagged 10 in 13 before injury, which
12:52goes to show a little reminder of how good he actually was.
12:56I mean, I think that says it all really, doesn't it? It's been such a struggle to get that focal
13:00point at the centre of attack and Isidore's just been wonderful, hasn't he? I think that the fact
13:06that it's almost laughable, isn't it? I know we spoke about it before, but when he first came in,
13:11we sat here and we ummed and ahhed about whether he was going to be a left winger,
13:14whether they were going to trust him through the middle. And now, I mean, obviously,
13:17maybe he's still doing a job on the left, but it's almost unimaginable for him to be posted
13:22out on that left flank. When you look at his return, you look at the option that he gives
13:26Sunderland, regardless of how a game is going, knowing that you have him at the other end of
13:31the pitch and that burst of pace, the ability to stretch defence and to get him behind,
13:34it's always going to cause a headache for another team, for an opposition. So,
13:38yeah, full credit to Wilson Isidore. And like I say, really nice to see him bounce back from
13:42what was a really difficult moment in that Burnley match. So, yeah, full kudos to him.
13:47And it would appear that he's going to have a little bit of help moving forward over the
13:52remainder of the campaign as well. Phil, Sunderland wrapped up a deal for Jadon Danes
13:57at the time of writing, time of recording, still hasn't been confirmed, but that deal has gone
14:03through. As far as we're aware, yeah, we were obviously checking this out last night and this
14:09morning, and as far as we're aware, it went through and there were no issues. So, we're
14:13just waiting for that to be officially confirmed. So, yeah, as far as I'm aware, that should be
14:18done. And it's going to be a really interesting dynamic going forward, because I felt Mienda had
14:22a real impact again last night. I think he's robbed some obvious similarities in his game
14:28with Isidore's in terms of the pacing behind and, you know, Chris Corrigo there on. So,
14:33it feels like there should be three, you know, really strong options for one place, basically,
14:36which is a decent place for Sunderland to be. It's quite hard to comment on. I don't know a lot
14:41about Jadon Danes, other than obviously what we're seeing from him is exciting. I think that you're
14:46always a little bit wary of getting too carried away when a player sort of has their first loan,
14:51because some players just take to it immediately. A lot of players, you know, need time to adapt to
14:56senior football, and it's not until, you know, their second or third loan that you really see
15:00them sort of make an impact. So, we'll have to wait and see. But clearly, it gives Sunderland
15:05a little bit of cover if there's an injury, which they really needed. And hopefully, you know,
15:10he can sort of then make a real impact as well. So, I think it was a, you know, we all knew at
15:16the time the Le Fay one was like a big deal. That was like a massive moment in Sunderland's season
15:20getting that done. I think initially, it's pretty obvious from the targets Sunderland were pursuing
15:25in terms of like Tom Cannon, Ben Barrett and Diaz. It's fairly obvious they wanted some championship
15:30experience up front. For one reason or another, that didn't quite happen. But I think with Dan,
15:35they've got someone who's athletic, who's pacey, who's shown in youth football he's a good finisher.
15:40So, it feels like a good sort of foil or alternative to Isidore. But I think you have
15:44to say as well, like no matter who signed, pretty much Isidore was going to be the main man for the
15:50time being. He's earned that right, hasn't he? So, I think it's fair to point that out as well.
15:55At one point, we were saying Sunderland desperately needed, you know, a starting striker. I don't think
15:59that's the case at the moment. So, fingers crossed Dan can just sort of shake that up a bit
16:03and offer a bit more, a bit of an alternative as well.
16:08I mean, he is obviously a little bit of an unknown entity to James. I think he's got something like
16:12eight or nine senior appearances for Liverpool. But he has scored in those, you know. He's got
16:17three goals to his name so far. He became the club's youngest ever Champions League starter
16:22last week when they played PSV, you know. So, there's clearly a lot of belief in him around
16:27Anfield. I've seen quite a lot of Liverpool fans online suggesting that he does have a big future
16:31at the club. And while he is, like I say, something of an unknown entity, if it comes off, it has the
16:36potential to be an exciting loan addition for Sunderland. I think so. What I've seen him,
16:42which has only been very sort of limited appearances, obviously, as he's appeared for
16:47Liverpool so infrequently. But there's definitely a player there, you can see that. You don't get
16:52to Liverpool's first team or on the brink of Liverpool's first team starting in Champions
16:55League games unless you've got something about you. You don't come through that academy unless
17:00you're talented. So, I think from that point of view, it really makes sense. He can obviously
17:04play a couple of positions as well, can't he? He can play off the left, he can play up front. I do
17:08think he faces a huge challenge though, just simply because of the time he's got to make an impact.
17:13I think it's really difficult. If we signed him six months ago in the summer and he's got the
17:17whole season, maybe he can sort of ease his way into a season. I think it's going to be
17:22tough for him. I'm not saying that he won't do anything or that he's a bad signer because he's
17:27absolutely got something in his locker. But I think, yeah, in terms of the time he's actually got,
17:33you just wonder how quickly he can sort of adapt and get up to speed at the Championship,
17:39which is a league he's never played in. But I think just on the transfer window generally,
17:43had you said to some fans, look, you're going to sign Enzo Lefebvre, who's a £20 million midfielder
17:49from Roma. You're going to get Jadon Danes and you're going to sign Wilson Isidor on a permanent
17:54contract. And then you're going to keep the likes of Watson-Rigg, Job, Dan Neal, Anthony Patterson,
18:02whoever else. I think personally that's a pretty good window. You could maybe look at full-back
18:08and say, is there enough succession planning there? But I suspect that'll get addressed in the
18:12summer. There is cover there in terms of Lugo 9 could go out to either full-back position, Jenson
18:16Seal on the way back. So there are things that can be done there. And then up front, Phil mentioned
18:22that experienced Championship striker that Sunderland were looking to get, but probably just
18:27missed out on. But there's Abdullahi to come back, obviously with the caveat that we don't know how
18:30well he's going to adapt to Championship football in the next six months. Trey Ogunsui as well is
18:37sort of pushing around Sunderland's squad. Remains to be seen how much of an impact he can make or
18:43whether he'll play much at all. But with the likes of Mundell and Watson coming back,
18:48I think suddenly that squad looks fairly well fleshed out. Obviously, you always want a little
18:52bit more, especially in the full-back areas, as I've just mentioned. But I think it's looking
18:57good. Yes, a little bit disappointing. Maybe he's not to get like a Tom Cannon or a Ben Berrett and
19:02Diaz, but generally with the form of Isidor, with what Mayendin can do as well, Roberts and Mundell
19:08and Watson, I think it looks fairly healthy at the moment. Should we talk about Tommy Watson,
19:15Phil? Because it was obviously one of the sagas of deadline day. At one point it looked like he
19:19might be away. Then it looked as if Sunderland had sort of dug the heels in. There was talk of
19:23Simon Odinga coming in from Brighton in a sort of part exchange loan option. There were all sorts of
19:30variables going on. I mean, ultimately he stayed at the club. But what was the state of play with
19:35Watson yesterday? Well, I mean, yesterday it was that, I mean, Brighton have been, I think from
19:43fairly, you know, sort of late last week, coming at a level that suggested they were pretty serious
19:49about getting the deal done. You always get a pretty strong indication from a first bid. So I'm
19:55thinking back to like when Ross Stewart went to Southampton, which again was late in the transfer
19:59window. Sunderland didn't accept the first bid, but everyone kind of knew that the first bid was
20:04at a level where it was like, okay, they want to get this done, if that makes sense. I think that
20:08was pretty much the case here with Watson. Although it fell short of someone's valuation, it was like
20:12significant enough to be like, hang on, this isn't, you know, they aren't just tempted and having a
20:17bit of a go here. They're pretty serious about this. It never reached the point where someone
20:22accepted a fee. I know there was some suggestions about Watson travelling South. That wasn't because
20:28the deal was agreed and whether that happened just in case, you know, we potentially, but the
20:34deal wasn't agreed. I think the main thing from Sunderland's perspective was the briefs has been
20:38really, really clear that they wanted two wingers on each flank for the rest of the season,
20:42so that Watson wasn't going to go unless Sunderland could get a replacement.
20:46Now, I think there was a level that Brighton could have got to where Sunderland would have
20:51just had to say, this is too good to turn down and we have to accept it. And that never quite
20:55happened. From what I understand, Dhingra had been one of Sunderland's main targets going into
20:59the window, but they were quite realistic that Brighton weren't particularly keen to let him go
21:03and the player wasn't sure about dropping down for championships. I'm not sure that was ever too much
21:07of a goer, although Sunderland were definitely very interested in him. Casey McAteer was obviously
21:12one of the other names that was on Sunderland's radar. Again, Leicester were very, very clear that
21:17they weren't prepared to let him go unless they could get a winger, which always seemed unlikely.
21:21So, to be honest, I think by mid-afternoon, it was a deal that looked quite unlikely in terms of
21:28Sunderland struggling to get a replacement and Brighton hadn't quite reached the level where
21:32Sunderland were happy to let him go regardless. So, I know that Brighton pushed again later on
21:39and it's definitely something that could have happened, but it didn't.
21:42And I think that Sunderland's kind of view all the way along was, we need Watson,
21:46like we need two left-wingers. Obviously, Mundell will be back soon, but he's had a hamstring injury
21:50for a long period. So, you don't know how long it's going to take him. Sunderland need two
21:54orthodox wingers out on that left flank. And so, they were really looking to do it. And I think
21:58their view ultimately is that, look, at the moment, I think there's an acceptance that Watson seems
22:03unlikely to sign a new contract, which means he will probably go in the summer. But I think
22:08Sunderland's view is that they will still be able to get a decent fee at that stage because of the
22:12level of interest in him. So, I think it was a bit of a pragmatic decision in the end to say,
22:16look, let's not do this now. Let's reassess him in the summer because he's still got an
22:21important part to play. I know there's been some chat about him chomping at writing and stuff. I
22:27don't get the sense that there's a huge amount of acrimony behind the scenes about that. It's
22:32football. Let's be real. It's clear that there was a chance that the deal could go through.
22:37He's injured. He was never going to take part in the Borough game. So, I don't have too many
22:42concerns in terms of him coming back into the group now and playing when he's fit. I don't
22:46think there's anything particularly to be concerned about there. I think, obviously,
22:50there's a realism that if he doesn't sign the new contract, he will probably leave in the summer.
22:55Sunderland's gamble, if you want to call it that, is that they're hoping that these
22:59significant bids, that kind of money, will still be on the table in the summer.
23:04Their view also is, look, there's promotion to play for here. Which is that worth? In excess
23:10of £100 million. So, if Watson has an impact when he's back fit, then it'll be worth it. So,
23:15I think it's been a tricky one for everyone. I think it would be fair to say
23:21it is what it is. Hopefully, he can get his head down now and have a strong end to the season when
23:25he's fit. It speaks volumes, doesn't it, James, as to not only the impact that he's made at a
23:32first-team level, but also the performances that he's produced with the under-21s that,
23:35at this fledgling stage of his career, we're already seeing such fervent interest in him
23:40from a club who recruit famously, as well as Brighton do.
23:45He's a really good player. We've known this for about two years, haven't we, Jason,
23:49and we've discussed him at length. When watching the under-21s, he always seems to
23:54deliver for the under-21s, always seems to stand out. Doesn't matter who Sunderland are playing.
24:00Graeme Murthy's side, Watson, if he's playing, will always stand out. Doesn't matter if it's
24:04in these European games, whether it's an FA Youth Cup game for the under-18s,
24:09you know, a Premier League Two game against Manchester City, or in the Premier League Cup
24:12against, you know, highly rated opposition towards the back end of last season in that
24:17play-off campaign, he always looks really good. So, it's no surprise to me that Brighton are after
24:22him. He's not Premier League ready. I think you have to say that, but obviously, if you go to a
24:26club where they do have clear plans and pathways and development plans, I feel like there's a lot
24:33being said about him, which is, it's probably a little bit unfair, to be honest. We don't know
24:39what goes on behind the scenes, as Phil says. We know he travelled to Brighton. You know,
24:43he's probably been advised to do that because there's a deal there to be done and he would
24:47have needed to be close by for a medical, as Phil said. It's not like he's deserted Sunderland's
24:52squad. He is injured. He wasn't going to play a part in that Middlesbrough game. So, I think it's
24:57just a case of maybe welcoming him back into the fold. He can clearly contribute to Sunderland. I
25:04do wonder, though, actually, and maybe it's a wider talking point for another day, but
25:11with Chris Rigg having enjoyed the success he's enjoyed in Sunderland's first team and having been
25:16given the opportunities he's been given, whether that does not annoy but make other under-21s
25:26sort of want that push as well because they believe the talent. Obviously, we saw Josh
25:29Robertson go to Brighton, didn't he, without a first-team game for Sunderland. Obviously,
25:35Tommy Watson maybe perhaps would have liked to have been pushed a little bit earlier. You know,
25:40I think anybody who watches Chris Rigg would probably agree that he's the best one out of
25:46the lot. So, that's why he's been given those opportunities. But there is maybe a little bit
25:49of a flip side to Chris Rigg's push from the under-21s into the first team very early,
25:54is that perhaps it creates a little bit of an expectation that that can happen so fast every
25:59time. And obviously, these players as well, they back themselves and they are extremely talented.
26:03I mean, I would be a hypocrite really in a sense to not understand what Watson meant because I was
26:09calling for his inclusion towards the back end of last season when Sunderland didn't have too much
26:13to play for. So, I think it's very interesting and, you know, who knows what goes on behind
26:18closed doors. But I think he's a really good option to have coming back in for the rest of
26:23the season. And as well, a lot gets said about this ownership and has been said about this
26:28ownership group and this model and this way of doing things. Sunderland are quite often
26:32accused of being a selling club and they're just in it to make the money. And I think this really
26:37proves that they're not, doesn't it? Sunderland will sell when it suits them and when they need
26:41to. But there's been big money on the table for Tommy Watson and they haven't sold because of the
26:47needs of the squad, because of Sunderland's aims and aspirations this season. I imagine it would
26:52have been the same for Job and Chris Rigg if Sunderland had wanted to sell those two players
26:56to cash in to make money alongside Watson. Then they could have, but they haven't. You know,
27:03there's a little bit to criticise Sunderland over the years from this ownership group, of course,
27:07but I think that sort of ends the just in it to make a quick book argument for me anyway.
27:13And should we quickly rattle through a few of the other departures, Phil, or a few of the players
27:18who actually did depart, I should say. Obviously, there were some names going into the window that
27:22we were discussing quite a lot. Nazrussin, he's obviously gone to Hatshepsut now over in Croatia.
27:28Adil Al-Shish, we weren't sure what was going to happen with him, but he's gone out on loan
27:31to Portsmouth. And then Abdullah Barr as well left last night and he's gone to Dunkirk over in France.
27:37I mean, three exits that you feel are probably right for the players at this present moment in
27:41time. Yeah, I think they had to be out playing. I think the Barr one, it's not ideal the way it's
27:49developed this season. Obviously, Sunderland invested in Barr, not just in terms of the
27:53initial transfer fee, but basically across like two seasons, didn't they? Giving them a huge
27:57amount of game time in the hope that you'd become this championship player. Although there were
28:02some, I thought there were some clashes at times that hasn't really happened. I think from going
28:07to be going out on a straight loan to the French second tier, it's not ideal to be honest, but
28:12hopefully you can just play regularly. And that means that there'll be some, you know,
28:16some decent permanent offers in the table. I think that's very much the idea there.
28:21Obviously with Roosten, there's, you know, there's the option to buy there in the summer,
28:26isn't there? So there's potentially a bit of more of a financial return for Sunderland on that one.
28:30So I think with Barr and Roosten, I think it was clearly needed to play. They weren't getting many
28:34minutes. It was really hard to see them forced into the team. Auchiesh is the only one where
28:40you undenied a little bit because we'd seen in the weeks previous that he could have an impact.
28:45And I think there was always that thing of, oh, look, do we just sort of almost play it safe,
28:48if you like, and just keep Auchiesh around because, you know, you're making an impact
28:52and you know that Le Bris sort of really rates his actions around the place. So that's the only
28:56one where you could, I think you could make an argument that Sunderland didn't make the right
29:00decision. But I think, as I explained, as soon as Le Fay came in, it was clear that Auchiesh
29:05wasn't going to play much. And when you sort of have Watson and Mundell in the picture as well,
29:10I think it would have been unfair, really, given the way he's conducted himself,
29:14to ask him to come in, to stick around for the second half of the season. So I think the right
29:20decision has been made. So, yeah, I think ultimately I disagree with any of the decisions.
29:27And finally, James, two players who ultimately didn't leave the club, Joe Anderson was heavily
29:32linked with an exit, and then Jefferson Bennett as well, who at one point Sky Sports had announced
29:36that he'd actually gone to Charlotte Athletic. That's how close that deal seemed to be, rather.
29:40I mean, interesting to see what happens with those two over the remainder of the campaign.
29:46Yeah, I'm really quite sad for Dewey, actually. I think he really needs to play football. Just
29:52looking at his Sunderland sort of career arc, he comes over really highly rated. He gets that goal
29:57against Watford, everyone was quite excited about him. He has that moment at the Stadium of Light
30:02where he puts the cross in for Riggs' ball under Tony Mowbray against Southampton. But he was just
30:09never going to get in ahead of Jack Clarke, wasn't he, when Jack Clarke was at the club? And then
30:13there was the emergence of Romain Mundell. So I do feel for him, because it's not happened for
30:21him. He's come over to a new country, new language, and it's just not working out. When you speak to
30:28everybody, Graeme Murthy and the likes, they've got nothing but good things to say about them.
30:32Clearly, Rajeece Labriece doesn't fancy him at the moment, though. I thought he needed to go out
30:36and play football. A London League one would have been absolutely ideal for him, in my opinion. He
30:41had that London Greece last season, didn't he? And that didn't work out for him. I think he picked
30:46up an injury. I know he's had a little bit of a fitness issue this season as well. So, yeah,
30:52I'm disappointed. I enjoy watching him for the under-21s. I've enjoyed watching him for Sunderland.
30:57Not all transfers worked out, but from an observational point of view as well, whenever
31:03we're up at Hetton watching the under-21s, Dewey's always one of the players that stays back and
31:08signs autographs and poses for pictures. He genuinely comes across as a nice lad, so I'm
31:14disappointed for him. Joe Anderson, another one that just doesn't seem to have worked out, does it?
31:19I'm sure Murthy will be happy to have him available for the under-21s because he
31:23seemingly does well there. But for the good of his career, I think he's like 23, 24 now,
31:29you'd be hoping that he gets a move at some point and goes and plays regular first team. And it's
31:33certainly not going to happen at Sunderland, so I would expect him to leave him somewhere.
31:37In fact, his contract might even be up, Jase, correct me if I'm wrong.
31:42I think it is. Yeah, so I mean, you'd expect him to go now, wouldn't you?
31:48Yeah, I think so. I think so. Well, that's all we've got time for on this week's show. Join us
31:53again next week when we'll be discussing all of the latest Sunderland news and developments. In the
31:57meantime, follow all the latest Black Cats news on the Sunderland Echo, give us a follow on social
32:01media as well. Thanks to James, thanks to Phil, who has disappeared, and thanks to you for listening.
32:07We will catch you next week.