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00:00Meanwhile, Mike Waltz, the US National Security Advisor, at the same event spoke to criticise
00:05Keefe and speaking very much in line with his boss, Trump.
00:10His frustration with President Zelensky that you've heard is multifold.
00:15One, there needs to be a deep appreciation for what the American people, what the American
00:21taxpayer, what President Trump did in his first term and what we've done since.
00:28So some of the rhetoric coming out of Keefe, frankly, and insults to President Trump were
00:33unacceptable.
00:34Excuse me.
00:35Mike Waltz there speaking from the White House, as the scene there clearly showed.
00:41Let's get some analysis and bring in Antonio Miseroli, former NATO Assistant Secretary
00:46General.
00:47Antonio, thank you much for being with us here in France 24.
00:48We appreciate your time.
00:50Give us your sense of where we are right now.
00:53The impression, of course, is that relations between Keefe and Washington are very bad
00:59right now.
01:00They are very bad, both personally and politically.
01:04The language that has been used over the past few days has made things worse.
01:08It is very difficult when and how the two main players in this dispute will be able
01:15to get out of the hole if they want to at this stage.
01:19And at the same time, of course, things are not going to stop now and there will be further
01:24steps next week with meetings.
01:26I understand President Macron and Keir Starmer will go to the White House to talk to Trump
01:32and maybe some reason will prevail at this stage in order at least to lower the tone
01:37of this debate.
01:40It's a question I'm going to put to you now that I'd like to put to President Trump, but
01:44it's not that easy to get right to him.
01:46What do you think has made him take the stance that he's decided to take right now?
01:51Well, I think Europeans are confronted with a difficult situation in particular because
01:57they are increasingly realising that probably the burden of the possible ceasefire deal
02:04will be most on them and not only the financial or the political burden, but in particular
02:11the military burden.
02:13And that is a difficult situation right now.
02:14It was in part unexpected and in part could be expected.
02:19Little preparedness has been made to this effect.
02:22There have been these meetings in Paris this week.
02:25They are still at a very informal level, but it will certainly will be challenging for
02:29Europeans to take over a difficult mission of trying to contribute more to a deal that
02:36they want to co-shape, to contribute to shaping, but at the same time being also prepared to
02:42implement the deal on the ground where the availability for spending more and supporting
02:50Ukraine is there already.
02:52It's quite clear where the political support is still there inside the European Union and
02:57in Europe at large.
02:58Of course, the risks implied by a possible presence on the ground after the ceasefire
03:06are very, very high.
03:07Of course, it's worth pointing out that Europe actually has given more towards Ukraine's
03:12fight against Russia than the United States.
03:14And Donald Trump has exaggerated the amount, of course, almost doubling it.
03:17And fact check that and you see that Trump is actually not telling the truth.
03:21And Tony, can I ask you about the future of NATO?
03:23Because with Trump's rhetoric, with Trump's position that he's taking, I think it's pretty
03:27clear that slipping out of NATO is something that he wouldn't dismiss as a possibility.
03:32And I'm sure Vladimir Putin would be on the side applauding that.
03:37Can NATO survive if Trump decides to take such a route?
03:43Well, I would say two things have been worrying over the past few days.
03:46It's not only the declaration whereby Ukraine will not be part of NATO, and that is not
03:52under discussion coming from Washington and not just from the White House.
03:56And the second one, of course, is the willingness to transfer to Europeans the main burden
04:03of securing Europe at large.
04:06And I think Europeans are unprepared for this.
04:08And NATO may be a very different thing if the Americans start to disengage.
04:14Such disengagement in material military terms may not happen right away, may not happen
04:21overnight. It may take time.
04:23But clearly, there has already been a degree of weakening of the American security
04:28guarantee, to some extent, even the credibility of Article 5.
04:32This is worrying. And I think Europeans have to think seriously about what they want to
04:36do to that effect.
04:37NATO, in my personal view, remains a deterrent of last resort and a toolbox that
04:43Europeans cannot do without.
04:46And I think they should probably start conceiving of a different transatlantic bargain
04:51about the alliance, whereby it would become more European.
04:54Europeans would have to put more, both financially and militarily, into the security and
04:59defense of Europe. But they have to make an effort to preserve a degree of American
05:04engagement and presence on the continent, because that, at least in the short and
05:08medium term, remains essential.
05:11So this, if I'm understanding what you're talking about here, Antonio, this would
05:15involve major European investment in the defense sector.
05:19It would involve major investment in producing military hardware.
05:24No reliance, less reliance on the United States.
05:26But of course, at the present moment in time, the production capacity is all on the other
05:31side of the Atlantic, isn't it?
05:32That's where most of the arms are coming from.
05:35I think there are two aspects, also in terms of timing.
05:38In the short term, it is very difficult for European defense industry to increase
05:43spectacularly output production, be it about ammunition or more complex weapon
05:49systems. And therefore, they may still have to rely, at least for certain capabilities,
05:53on what they buy from the Americans.
05:56This could be something that could even help assuage Donald Trump in the short term.
06:01In the medium term, however, Europeans need to do more and can do more if they make
06:06full use of the tools they have, including the single market.
06:10There are ideas already on the table put forward by Mario Draghi and other reports
06:14that have been produced recently to achieve that.
06:17The European Commission is thinking seriously about putting more money where their
06:21mouth is. And I think that is going to materialize, but not necessarily in the short
06:26term. So I think we have this decalage, this gap between what is needed now and what
06:31can be done in a few years' time that has to be breached and has to be addressed
06:36properly by Europeans.
06:38Antonio Miseroli, thank you very much for your time and your analysis you shared with
06:41us here on France 24. We really appreciate it.
06:43Antonio Miseroli is the former NATO Assistant Secretary General.
06:47Thank you, sir, for being with us here on France 24.