Vivian Tu mixes funny with money. The former J.P. Morgan equity trader brings financial knowledge to social media with her irreverent and straight-talking videos that teach her followers (2.4 million on TikTok, 1.8 million on Instagram) how to build an investment portfolio, manage their careers, and negotiate a raise. Her relatable lessons, think honest big sister giving tough-love money advice, have scored Tu lucrative partnerships with companies like Marshalls and SoFi.
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https://www.forbes.com/sites/stevenbertoni/2024/10/28/top-creators-2024-the-influencers-turning-buzz-into-billions/
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LifestyleTranscript
00:00That was the second video ended up getting, you know, another million views
00:04and I just kept going and
00:06Slowly, I started expanding into topics like what financial books you should read how you can travel smarter with the right credit card
00:14You know where to make sure that you are getting the best discounts
00:18Like it became a full 360 of anything with a dollar sign. I'll talk about it
00:24Hey
00:27Everybody welcome to Forbes top creators
00:29I'm Forbes assistant managing editor Stephen Bertone and today we have Vivian to
00:35Aka your rich BFF now Vivian is the digital
00:41expert the social media expert about finance she has
00:45Millions of followers her own podcast. She's a best-selling author. One of your recent guests called you the Taylor Swift of finance
00:52I'm stealing that Vivian to welcome to the show. Thank you so much for having me excited to chat. This is great
00:57So you're like old-school Forbes now, you were at under 30. Yeah, you were a top creator. Yep. You just came to our party last Monday
01:03Thank you. That's right, and you just got married. I did so congratulations
01:07Yes, all very equal accomplishments for me the marriage top creators Forbes, you know, yes
01:13And you met your partner before you were all this Forbes stuff
01:16So he's not just he's not just chasing the Forbes the Forbes vibe. No, definitely not chasing the clout
01:21He liked me when I had two nickels to rub together. No followers and a cockroach invested apartment in
01:28So that is true love. Yeah, that's right
01:31My wife met me I was employed, but I was homeless. I was living in an aerobed in one of my
01:38Friends apartments because I'd Wow, I'd moved out of another relationship and then a few weeks later
01:42I got laid off and I'm like, I'm gonna be a journalist and she's she's like, okay and stuck with me
01:47Which is you know, I would have bolted but you know, yeah
01:49Turned out okay for her so far so good. It worked. So let's talk about you know, we have very similar backgrounds
01:56Yeah in work wise with very different outcomes. We were both in finance. Yeah in equity. Yeah, I left for media
02:03Yeah, you left for media, but yeah much bigger better paying way. So that's for that. I
02:09Worked in sales. So when I love what did you do in finance because you know, yeah
02:14Yeah, so I started my career on Wall Street
02:16I was an equities trader, which is just a fancy way of saying I traded stocks. Yes. I worked at JP Morgan and
02:22It was great. It was great for the first, you know year and a half
02:25But then ultimately the head of my desk got let go there was a shake-up things happen
02:30But I was taken away from my manager who I really really loved
02:33She's still my mentor to this day and assigned to someone new who didn't really respect me didn't treat me with respect
02:39Didn't you know treat me with dignity frankly, and I knew it was time to go were you in sales?
02:44We were sales trader. I was trading official trading trade a trade like a block trader
02:48Yeah for I'm in the business. I was in the business on the I was in the edge of the business
02:53Tell me syndicate. No, I was on the I was US listed stock exchange, but on the floor like I've got a
03:00You were floor broker floor broker with no I was a floor clerk for Merrill Lynch
03:03Okay, but we should trade it was like we were trading Intel on paper tickets
03:06Like that's how backwards it was. So I was the goal was like you work on the floor and work your way up
03:10Yeah, and then technology came by and just like we don't need any of you anymore
03:13So yeah, I got laid off thankfully, but in terms of what was like your day-to-day as a trader
03:20Kind of in this technology world because like this was these were the these were algorithms back then this is you know
03:25This is in the future. Yeah, definitely. So I would rock up to the office at 545
03:29I had to wake up at like 5 or so to make that happen
03:32It was always 545 because if I got in before 6 I could expense my uber nice
03:37But then breakfast maybe or just the uber no just the uber gotcha
03:40Had to pay for my own breakfast at the company cafeteria. Yes, which was subsidized true, but the food was also very bad
03:47Yes, and I would start my day by just reading all of the research that I'd come out overnight
03:54Especially in particular I was focusing on the industrials materials and energy category
03:58So anything that had come out with that, especially it was earning season
04:01I would honestly might even get in a little earlier just to digest all of that and then we would send out notes to our
04:08Clients so hedge funds asset managers
04:11You know pension funds anything like that and then around 7 7 30 I would go grab breakfast come back
04:18Make sure that the day was kind of set up. So if I had any positions from the previous day
04:23I was ready to buy or sell whatever I wanted to do with them or hold on to them
04:26What have you and then any early tickets that would come in?
04:30I would have on you know, my my computer screen and be ready to trade them and by that I just mean click some buttons
04:38You would do two different types of trading one on behalf of someone else as well as you know in our internal books
04:45One of which oh you can still do that. That's good. You can to an extent
04:49It's not the same you're not prop trading the way that we were back in the 80s or 90s
04:53But it was okay to take a position and have a view
04:56Yeah as a desk, you know have stuff and to be clear if you're everyone watching and listening
05:01This is you know, it's called institutional trading. So you're not trading like my stock
05:05These are like you're dealing with other corporate pension funds mutual funds hedge funds
05:09You're moving family offices for high net worth people everybody, but this is for very much
05:15What you would consider sophisticated clients. Yes, and then I would trade throughout the day
05:21And market would open at 930 to 4. So I'd be kind of tied to the desk for that amount of time
05:27and then at 4 the market would close and
05:31Everybody would deep sigh of relief and I would run the P&L for the desk
05:35I was the youngest person. So that was the grunt work that I had to do doing the clerical stuff. You got it and
05:40Once that was over around six or so if there was a client event that I had to be at we would go to a bar
05:46Or a restaurant. Otherwise, I would go home and try to hopefully get a workout in nice
05:50Did you where did you study? How'd you get weed in one of those one of those like feeder programs from college?
05:56Yeah, what did you where'd you go? What'd you study and how'd you get into JP Morgan?
05:59Yes, that's a huge brand. That's like a people want to go. Yeah, I
06:04Studied at the University of Chicago. Okay. I was a public policy and environmental studies double major
06:08No math in the University of Chicago
06:10I mean I could have been a math major if I wanted to become a professor or like there you go think about theory
06:15But I wanted to have a little bit more of like a practical life. Okay, and
06:20Ultimately that made a lot of sense because public policy allowed me to focus on finance there. We don't pre professionalized
06:25so there are no finance majors, okay, and then the
06:29environmental studies piece was just because I was interested in energy and how the world worked and how we powered things and
06:36so funny most of my peers ended up going to become the heads of NGOs and I
06:41Came from an immigrant background
06:43I had two parents that basically looked me in the eye and said as soon as you graduate from college
06:47Don't look to us for a single dollar and I was like, I need a job that makes money like when you call it
06:51You're off and my dad was off scholarship. Yeah scholarship. Yeah, and that's it
06:56Exactly and so then I knew I needed a job that was going to pay and
07:01Hopefully a job that I like doing that could pay
07:04And because all of the mentors that we had in college like the older students the girls in my sorority
07:10They ended up going and getting Wall Street jobs. I thought you know good enough for them good enough for me. Perfect
07:14What was give me one really good thing you liked about Wall Street and one really bad thing that you did not like?
07:20Yeah, so really good thing. I think it gave me a work ethic that you can't buy
07:25I cut my teeth in an environment where everyone was used to working a 12 to 14 hour day and
07:31Ultimately when I was starting your rich BFF
07:34There were days that I was like, I don't really feel like making a video today
07:37or I don't really feel like responding to this email, but I would just like grit my teeth and do it and
07:42I think that's in part why I've been able to grow so quickly and for so can like for such a consistent period is
07:50On days when I don't feel like showing up. I still do
07:53Bad thing, I think Wall Street also
07:57Really showed me that
07:59Things weren't as rosy as I thought
08:03There were going to be people who
08:05Judged me based on how I looked my identity. There were gonna be people who underestimated me
08:10My mentor even had to pull me aside like in the first couple months of working together
08:15She said listen, you're gonna start getting invited to client events
08:17I don't care what time you go home, but you tell everyone on the desk the next day
08:21You left a little bit before midnight and I'm like, why do I have to lie about when I got home and she said because
08:27When you are a young woman on this team, you have to be beyond reproach
08:32You're gonna have to work twice as hard to get half as much
08:34And that kind of sucks to hear out loud
08:36But as you said that you like point-blank she says to me point-blank and I'm so grateful that she did
08:42Because a lot of us don't like to hear that but it's true
08:46And so knowing that in my mind I was able to really strategize around what I would and wouldn't share
08:52What I would and wouldn't say and I'm so grateful to have had someone to kind of guide me in the right direction
08:57So you felt like you really had to be on your guard and really kind of almost create like a shield around you
09:02In the same way that you're rich BFF, you know, I credit a lot of the success to personal branding
09:07Yes, I had to have a personal brand at work my work sona and it wasn't who I actually was gotcha
09:14And I would say and your your rich BFF is so
09:18Outspoken in a good way now. Yeah, is that a also work sona or is that more you or is that like an exaggerated you?
09:25I think with your rich BFF, obviously, I can be a lot more myself than I was able to be
09:30You know sitting in a suit on my Wall Street trading desk
09:34I think there are still things that have taken me a little bit of time
09:38My team actually has been integral, you know, to my success
09:41Whether it be my agents my management my publicists like integral and being like hey
09:45You can share things about your own personal life because I was so guarded when I started it was truly just information
09:51And now suddenly i'm talking about medical bills, but also sharing that I went through an egg freezing journey
09:57I'm talking about you know how to budget but also showing people how I worked in my honeymoon to my budget
10:04And I think that's actually just deepened my relationship with my audience. So it's it's worked out really nicely
10:09Yeah, I was gonna ask about that. You actually not just mentioned your egg freezing, but you've documented the whole yeah
10:13Talk to me about that. Like was that something you plan to do?
10:16Is that something you felt like you it's it's people are doing but no one's talking about so you want to kind of
10:21Normalize it like what was the decision and were you like not sure about it at first like whoa?
10:25Is this way too much because I mean anything medical and you know, it's super intimate. Yeah, very personal
10:30I can and usually very private. Yeah
10:33I think it's because when I walked in and did my first consult, I was so excited and then they showed the
10:39Rough outline of what it would cost
10:42And I am so grateful like, you know
10:44It's no surprise like forbes has even reported some of my earnings like people know that I make a great living
10:49I balked at that number. I was like, are you joking? Like who can afford this? Can I afford this?
10:54and
10:55That really
10:57Made me sad because if someone's like, oh, I'm not gonna do this. I'm not gonna do this
11:01Made me sad because if someone who's earning as high a number as I am
11:06Feels this way about you know, how much this process is going to cost. What about everybody else?
11:10And so I ended up documenting it
11:12We actually have a podcast episode where i'm going to be explaining exactly how much every single step spent
11:17Was and what I had to do what the emotional toll what the financial toll was and I think it's because
11:24I have seen other people's egg freezing journeys, but no one's really talked about the money portion of it yet
11:29and
11:30You know, I talked to my husband
11:31I made sure that we were both really comfortable with it and I actually delayed post everything
11:36So, okay, I made sure that I went through the process. I was comfortable
11:40I was happy with how things turned out because I think i'm very grateful
11:45I was able to get a really great retrieval really great number of eggs
11:49if I had gotten
11:51Worse news. I don't know if I would have been as comfortable sharing that like yeah
11:56That vulnerability is still quite scary to I think everybody
11:59um, but i'm happy that I was able to share the journey and I got so many dms that were like
12:04Thank you for doing this like nobody talks about this and like seeing you go through this makes it less scary for me
12:10What was the uh, the total cost i'm curious. Yeah all in roughly twenty five thousand dollars twenty five thousand dollars
12:16so it's
12:17It's typically roughly four to six grand for the medication that you have to inject in yourself
12:23You obviously have a bunch of different blood work and tests that need to be done ahead of all of that
12:27That's you know
12:29low thousands
12:30Uh, the annual freezing cost is a thousand dollars to keep the eggs on ice
12:34And then the overall process of actually having the retrieval done
12:38um is you know
12:4015 to 20 and then ultimately after that, um, if you do end up using those embryos or those eggs, uh,
12:48You it's another ten thousand dollars process. Yeah
12:50Yeah, so it's like the whole the all-in for me thus far has been roughly 20 25 grand
12:55but
12:56In the future it will cost more if I you know choose to utilize them
13:00Well, you're the tax expert by making a content you get to write the whole thing write the whole thing off. Not quite
13:05I wish um, no, obviously, you know, it has to be clear and conspicuous only for business
13:11Um, that was very clearly a personal decision. Yes, obviously
13:14So I want to kind of jump back for a second. So you were you know in this very intense wall street job
13:19Yeah, and then you you're you're your boss left
13:22You said you decided to have a switch it up and then you move to media but on media sales, right?
13:26You're in buzzfeed. Yes, so I worked in digital media strategy sales. So I was working um covering clients
13:32um specifically in the travel entertainment and um political space and
13:38What we would do is do everything as simple as literally selling banner ads on the buzzfeed website
13:43to writing posts to making custom videos all the way to doing
13:47Irl pop-ups in flat iron and doing full joint business ventures to create new products for some of these clients
13:53So everything I did was kind of different every single day, which I loved
13:57Yeah, creative different very very different than I than the than the kind of the grind of the floor
14:02Yeah, I mean the grind of the floor was fun too, right?
14:05Like, uh, I think working and trading like every day is different, right? Some days are amazing. You make a ton of money
14:12Some days are completely unpredictable
14:14Some days you kind of lose money, but that's I think what i've always been chasing with a job is like I get bored
14:19Very easily. Yes
14:20So the first job very exciting very different second job still very exciting covering all these different clients getting to do all these different
14:26Things and then my current job being your rich bff every day is different
14:30How'd you get now take me from buzzfeed where you said it was creative super fun and then
14:36To your first post what led to you and you got lucky to not lucky, but you got viral early as well
14:41Which is very interesting first video. So I did get lucky. Yes, what which is rare?
14:45I talked to like a lot of people in the show and they said like I posted three days three times a day
14:50I posted for a year. Yeah, and then I finally got that moment
14:53You kind of had that first swing grand slam sort of thing. What led you to making making these the videos? Yeah, so I
15:01Wanted friendship at buzzfeed desperately because I there wasn't like a starting analyst class like there typically is on wall street
15:07So I was like, okay, I need to make friends
15:08and so
15:09uh, I mentioned that I had come from a wall street background and all of the new people that I was sitting with at lunch were
15:14like
15:15wall street
15:16You're about to rebalance my 401k you were about to help me with all these things that I don't understand
15:20And I did and ultimately one of my girlfriends at work. She's still one of my best friends to this day
15:26She was like, I really think you need to put this on the internet and I said people will laugh at me. Absolutely not
15:31Yes, she was the largest influencer. I personally knew at the time
15:35She had 10 000 followers on instagram. She was a foodie blogger, but it wasn't her full-time gig
15:40She just kind of did it for fun. Yeah, like doing it. Yeah, um, but one day for lunch
15:44She took me to this restaurant
15:46And we got to walk out without paying the bill
15:48all she had to do was take some photos and post about it and I was like
15:52Like is this legal like how are we doing this?
15:54And she was like it's like dine and dash dining
15:56I was like are we dining and dashing and she was like no
15:59Um, and then ultimately she just said like I really think you should do this and I was like, okay fine
16:03Leave me alone
16:04January 1st of 2021 as a new year's resolution kind of between me and her I told her I was like i'll make one video
16:09Yeah, and by the 20 i'm just trying my my brain gets like all confused with coke
16:13This was like peak covet right or was it?
16:15Yeah, this was like we out then or we still like really in our houses. This was like
16:19Nine months into covid. Yeah, so we're still in our houses vaccines are starting to come out but not really out
16:25Yeah, they're not really out yet. Um, and so I
16:28Post this video and for the first seven hours nothing
16:30It was like got seven and it was on it was on tick tock tick tock. Just tick tock. What was the topic?
16:35um, it was me saying
16:37Hey guys, like i'm seeing some real bad advice going around. Do not put your stimulus check into tesla calls
16:43Do not put it into bitcoin. Do not be an idiot
16:46But like I worked on wall street
16:47It's not that hard to be good with your money and I can teach you there's no such thing as a get rich quick scheme
16:52Anybody promising you there is one is a scammer
16:54Like if you want to learn more follow me and that was the whole video
16:58And that was it no just you talking to the camera me talking to the camera if you actually watch it back
17:03I listened to it the other day. My voice is shaking so bad
17:06I'm, like so scared and so nervous and like this was before I realized there were things like teleprompters or ring lights or like
17:12The gimbal that you can hold so it doesn't look like, you know, you're just like in an earthquake
17:17What's oh, is that like a it's like a gyroscope thing? It's like the thing. It's like the chicken head
17:20okay that prevents your hand from shaking and
17:24It's so funny this video is so poorly made it has no closed captioning
17:28There is one text at the beginning and that's it
17:31Like I would never put out a video that looks like that now. Yeah, but
17:35I put that out for seven hours nothing, but then I was watching a movie that night with my then
17:41boyfriend not even fiance then boyfriend now husband
17:44And suddenly my phone starts buzzing and it starts to get really hot and i'm like why is my phone about to explode?
17:50I open it up. I'm like that's kind of strange like
17:53I have a couple thousand followers on tiktok like that's more followers than I have on my personal instagram
17:58Where I know every single one of these people like I don't know this many people you probably had that for years
18:02Yeah, you've had this thing for yeah, exactly
18:05Yeah, literally and i'm like that's kind of strange and then I put it over and i'm like, okay
18:09After the movie I open it back up. I'm like wait, why do I have 17 000 followers on tiktok?
18:15That's more people than i've ever met. Yes
18:17and
18:18That video ended up getting three million views and by the end of the week. I had a hundred thousand followers
18:22That's insane. Yeah
18:24What do you think it was about that video or about you?
18:26That really struck a chord or was it just get like to get picked up in the algorithm and just went
18:31Who knows? It's kind of like a pinball machine. Yeah, I mean, I think
18:34It's because I was so honest I cut through the shit
18:38Like you had so many 15 year old boys in their mom's basements who had no credentials. No background
18:44No financial education telling people to do certain things and people for once were like, oh
18:50This girl doesn't sound like she's trying to scam me
18:52She doesn't sound like she's trying to sell anything
18:54like she has the chops to back it up and like
18:58I'm willing to listen and I think finance at that point also
19:02Like I think it was partially good timing because people were very conscious about their money mid
19:08Pandemic when people had lost their jobs people were like worried about being evicted people were having trouble affording groceries
19:14And so money was on everybody's mind and then the other side you had like the wall street bets people
19:19Oh my god diamond hands and say like the yoloing everything
19:22So your people half the world was taking their checks and being like, thank goodness i'm saying and the other half were gambling
19:28Yes, exactly. Yeah, but I think it was a very of the moment topic
19:33and
19:34I got lucky because the timing was good
19:37I didn't plan that but I think it was the fact that I continued to post every single day since then
19:43That's really really paid off. I was gonna ask. Okay, so you you did this fluke thing because your friend
19:47Yeah, you got a free meal. Yeah, and you're like i'm gonna do this i'm gonna do i'm gonna post
19:52You know, you're nervous you're shaking and then it gets three million views. Yeah, what do you do on like that's monday
19:58What do you do on tuesday? I called my friend and I was like
20:02What's what's wrong with you? Like look at what happened now. I have to do this. Like what is this?
20:06Okay, and she was like make another video i'm like about what and she was like, I don't know you tell me and i'm like
20:11Like what would I recommend as someone's like step one?
20:16And so the next video I made ended up being about high-yield savings accounts and how at that point
20:21You were going to be able to earn more from your bank and it was risk-free
20:26As long as you made sure you were banking with someone that was fdic insured like
20:29I felt like that was foolproof advice. Yes, and so
20:33That was the second video ended up getting you know, another million views
20:38um
20:39And I just kept going and slowly I started expanding into topics like what financial books you should read
20:45How you can travel smarter with the right credit card, you know where to make sure that you are getting the best discounts like
20:52It became a full 360 of anything with a dollar sign. I'll talk about it. Gotcha. So you're posting every day every day
20:59I mean the good news with finance is there's so many topics
21:02Yeah
21:02How would you how would you come up with like the topic of the day?
21:05And would you be ever be nervous being like you're laying in bed the night before like oh shit
21:08I need to like find like the topic for for tomorrow
21:12Fortunately for me. I had a lot of friends who would constantly ask me questions
21:16so I would just use their questions as fodder of like what I should talk about because i'm like if my
21:21friends are asking me this question like other people want to know too and also we have to remember I
21:26Had basically cta'd my audience and the very first video being like tell me what questions you want answered
21:30What is cta like call to action call to action? Gotcha. Yeah, so I cta'd my audience
21:35I'm, like hey, tell me what you want to learn
21:36Okay, and so I just went through the first videos thousands of comments and slowly one by one started knocking them off
21:42well, just like total crowdsource crowdsource crowdsource the whole thing and then um
21:47I wasn't ever stressed about do I have a video for tomorrow, but only because I was batch creating my content
21:53So I still worked my full-time job. Gotcha monday through friday
21:57And then on saturdays, I would ideate seven different concepts and then on sunday
22:01I would put on a shirt film a video take off the shirt put on a new shirt film the second video and then I
22:06Would keep switching outfits and everybody thought I was releasing a new video every single day when in reality
22:11I had filmed it over the course of a couple hours on a sunday. Wow. I just took care of the entire week whole week
22:17When did you start making money from this?
22:19Pretty quickly on it certainly wasn't a lot of money. Yeah, but pretty quickly on who's your first deal
22:24You remember that first deal? Yeah, I do
22:25um, the first deal that came to me was wealth front, okay, they
22:31literally
22:32Emailed me like the moment that first video went viral
22:37It was crazy and they were like how much for three videos. I was like what?
22:40And so I asked my girlfriend. I was like, what should I charge and she was like
22:44Ask for this and I was like, okay
22:49I asked for fifteen hundred dollars for three videos
22:52They negotiated me down to 1200 gotcha and I was like
22:56These idiots. I can't believe they would give me so much money for three videos
23:02And it's so funny to say that out loud
23:05because
23:08Now I have a whole team that handles all of my negotiations
23:12but
23:13I'm sure you're getting more than 400
23:15certainly
23:17It was a video just be like hey guys check out wealth front
23:20They're really smart with xyz like was that no it was it was just to like mention like hey
23:24Like if you don't know how to invest they have a robo advisor that can help you do it. Yeah
23:27Um, and I thought that was really great advice. Like that's truly advice that I would have given editorially. Yes
23:33and so
23:34uh, it was a good partnership, um
23:37but
23:38Then I had some conversations with other creators and I was like I must be undercharging gotcha
23:44And that's ultimately where I was able to kind of figure out my my rate and get that up
23:49When did this become a full-time job?
23:50Like when did you leave because you're making?
23:52A very good living at buzzfeed if I yeah a very very good living the last year I was at buzzfeed
23:57I made six hundred twenty five thousand dollars, which is certainly a respectable living. I mean more than
24:03and
24:05I felt so crazy to be leaving that job
24:07Because I didn't have any of the other complaints that like other people had like I loved my boss
24:11I loved what I was doing. I was fairly compensated like everything was going great
24:17but
24:18it was
24:19March of 2022
24:21I had come to the point where I was like, I hate my job
24:24I hate your rich bff
24:26I don't want to do either of these things anymore
24:28You hated them both hated them both and I said that to my now husband and he was like did it ever occur to you?
24:33Like you don't hate either of these things because you certainly liked your job before all this
24:37And you certainly didn't hate your rich bff at the beginning when there wasn't so much pressure to like get stuff out and like
24:42You know respond to emails and do all this work. Like you just hate doing them at the same time
24:47and I was like
24:48Oh
24:50Perhaps that is correct
24:53so
24:54That's good partner advice. Yes. It was excellent advice
24:56but also it gave me an opportunity to think about like what are my options and
25:01I felt like I didn't want to be
25:0450 60 years old and look back on this moment and be like what if
25:09I had done a really good job at buzzfeed my manager and I had an incredible relationship. I had networked
25:14I treated everyone really well
25:16So like people liked me and I was like if this doesn't play out
25:19I bet I can make a call and get this job back or if my boss leaves or something
25:25He would come and take me gotcha. So I was like, let me just try this for a year if it doesn't work
25:30I'll go back into this business that I know I can make a great living at
25:34I never went back. That's amazing
25:35That's a great luxury too to have like follow a dream
25:37But like your backup plan is also like really good really lucrative, but also not only just the backup plan
25:43I had a golden parachute. My husband still works in finance. I looked at him and I was like
25:47What if I don't make any money?
25:49What if I can't afford my half of the rent and he was like well, we've been together like, you know
25:53Five years like i'm not gonna let you go homeless or starve like my income can cover the two people for the two of us
25:58Like i'll take care of it and to have
26:02That golden parachute on my back
26:04I was able to jump so much harder and just pour myself into everything versus being like
26:09How am I going to afford my rent and that's a luxury that a lot of people don't have
26:13Yeah, you're not you're not playing scared. You're not like saying like I didn't have to you can use I can take a chance
26:17You're not just trying to like pay the bills. Yeah, you're not trying to create content that is just for the money
26:22You're and I didn't have to take every deal. Yeah, that was so important to me because there were certainly lots of
26:29Crypto companies and like sketchy like, you know stuff that I didn't feel morally good about that came in the door
26:35Gotcha, and I would turn them away
26:37even if the money was incredible, but it was because I could afford to I was operating out of a place of abundance and
26:45Opportunity versus you know scarcity
26:47how did you kind of approach how did your attitude and approach change to your rich bff when you
26:53Focused on that solely and you weren't kind of you know
26:55Kind of pulled between buzzfeed and and your social media world
26:59Did that that how did that change your mindset and how that changed operationally? I mean it was incredible like
27:06I mentioned this earlier
27:07But like I took that wall street ethic and suddenly I didn't have to juggle between two things that were competing for my attention
27:13I could put 12 14 hours a day towards one thing
27:17and I was like i'm gonna make this thing the best thing that it can possibly be and
27:21It was like
27:23Just like my eyes were wide open suddenly and like I had every opportunity at my fingertips
27:27Um, I made some really strategic hiring decisions got an attorney management and say who's you what's your team?
27:32What was your team like and what's your team like now?
27:33Yeah, so I didn't have anybody except for my attorney when I quit
27:38She was the first person I hired because I was like, I can't read through these contracts
27:41Like I need someone to help me. Yeah
27:43Then I told her I was like, hey i'm getting like
27:4650 emails a day. I don't even have enough time to read them all if I want to make content
27:50Yeah, and she was like I think you need a manager and these are emails coming in for opportunities for brands
27:55Everything. Yes everything and she was like, I think you need a manager
27:58So she sets up a couple like meetings for me with some managers. I end up choosing one
28:02She's still my manager today. Very cool. Um, and then a couple months down the line
28:07I want to say three or four months
28:08We started getting so many inbounds for opportunities that even she wasn't capable of vetting
28:13so like at the beginning it was just brands wanting to like work with me or
28:17Opportunities for interviews, but suddenly it's like we want you to write a book. We want you to have a podcast
28:23Would you like to come on this tv show?
28:24And she was like, I think you need an agent
28:26Okay, an agent that can be really niched down into specific things and i'm like, okay
28:30So she sets up speed dates with a bunch of agents and I end up picking an agency wme. Okay, and i'm still there today
28:36um
28:37and I think for me a big like a big thing is like
28:41Hiring slow and firing fast. Okay, so I took my time to find these people
28:46But I am very loyal and I want them to be loyal to me
28:49So i've kind of kept them as my business has really really transformed
28:53um, and
28:54Now I have those three parties and I say those three parties like wme is comprised of like 13 different agents that rep my business
29:02But they do your book as well because I did it. Okay, they do my book my podcast tv stuff speaking they do everything
29:08Um, but I also have a publicist
29:11Um, I have a business manager
29:13I have a full-time assistant who works with me as well as an editor and a junior producer who helps with my podcast
29:19Like it's a huge team now. It's 20 people or so
29:23um, and I never would have guessed that quitting my job would lead to this I know you're like everyone just thinks like
29:29The more and more we we're watching the creator world
29:31Just it's growing and growing up like people still think like you see your video. It's just just like I mean
29:36It's good production, but like oh vivian's doing like probably set up her ring light, but yeah, you've 20 people
29:41There's a whole operation. You're like a you're like a band. You got roadies. You got managers
29:45It's fascinating. It used to be
29:47I would ideate the concept I would film the concept I would edit the concept I would then post the thing
29:54now
29:55Fortunately, I only have to do those first two steps because no one can ideate a finance concept like me
30:01Yeah, that's not going to be something that I can certainly outsource
30:04Until we have much better ai. Yes, I cannot get rid of filming
30:08But I have an editor who helps me with the editing I have someone who's posting for me
30:12so I don't actually have to click the buttons because
30:15They can do it just as well as I can and I can free up those hours to go do other things that only I
30:19Can do like record my podcast or write my book
30:22So I think it's really about delegating tasks that other people can do just as well as you can
30:26And then focusing on what really requires your touch
30:29How do you get your ideas these days same ways before same ways before but also i'm just a really voracious reader
30:34Okay
30:34So like I read news headlines every single morning when I wake up
30:37I go through all of my push notifications of all the news like all of the main headlines
30:41Like i'm constantly consuming news so that I can then digest it and share it with my audience
30:47What is the life cycle of uh, what's like the start and finish of of one of your posts?
30:51Do you still are you you're obviously big on instagram and tiktok?
30:54Yeah, do you like what how long does it take for like the idea of like oh i'm going to cover
30:59high yield
31:00savings
31:01Into like scripting filming editing and hitting the button
31:05um
31:06It depends the issue is there are certain concepts that i'm so excited to put out
31:13and
31:14Those happen so fast. I can ideate in 15 minutes film it in 15 minutes
31:18Okay can get it edited in 20 minutes and it can be posted right then and there like a full like one hour from
31:26origination to post
31:28Then there's concepts that i'm like
31:29I've put it off for weeks and weeks and weeks ideation takes me like an hour plus
31:34Filming it i'm just like and I keep putting it off. I get distracted and that can take hours. I can take days weeks
31:41the craziest thing though is
31:44The stuff that i'm really excited about
31:46Isn't always the stuff that does the best there have been videos that i've put out that i'm like
31:51Not my best work and i'm like wait, wait, wait
31:53Why does this have 7 million views and i'm like
31:56Why is everyone looking at this video where I have no makeup on my hair is not done
32:01I literally didn't even have a script. I just directed to camera and posted like sometimes it's crazy. I'm like
32:07I put 10 seconds into this and it got viral and then there are things that i'm like really excited about
32:12I've done the research on and then i'm like
32:15No one cared see
32:17Creators talk about it all the time
32:19Like they spent a week on this this this piece of content
32:22It's gonna break the internet and it gets does nothing and then something they
32:25Slap up and do and you know what? It's the same way for journalists
32:28So when I first started I was a magazine I worked on the forbes magazine like 16 years ago
32:33Printed on dead trees 20 times a year, which was you know, it was great and also bad in some ways
32:39But when you print out a magazine the magazine story didn't we got no feedback
32:43Yeah, like maybe you get letters in the mail, but like it was in the magazine
32:46It's out to the public then we moved to digital and magazine and suddenly everyone has like in the newsroom
32:51They have like a leaderboard, right?
32:53Yeah, like who got most click gamify it and sometimes you'll spend, you know
32:57Two weeks on this crazy story and you think it's gonna do great and it gets like 10 000 views
33:02And then you do a quick, you know
33:03We used to call them blog posts like based on I forget like I was
33:07Drunk in my apartment and watching saturday night live. Yeah, and jesse eisenberg was on it was right at the social network
33:14And mark zuckerberg did like a walk-on so like they're both together
33:17Yeah
33:18and I remember it's like sit in my laptop because I was covering tech at the time and i'm like
33:21Oh like mark zuckerberg, you know, and it got like a hundred thousand views and i'm like I just did this
33:25In like on my couch on my couch with a buzz on
33:28Yeah, it got more views than like when I was spent a week with a ceo of a billion dollar company
33:32And you did hardcore, you know breaking news and actually reporting opposed to like almost just like a cultural thing
33:38But you have to you have to take as many swings as possible and sometimes you strike out
33:42Yeah, and by the way
33:43Just because you it's not all about views either like maybe like the right people read that but i'll never forget like on my couch
33:49in like in the dark writing about saturday night live versus like
33:52in yeah, it's like in a in west in west texas with an oil pipeline billionaire like
33:58Sort of stuff. So it is very funny how that all works. How do you make money now?
34:02Yeah, i've got a couple different sources. Okay, so the lion's share of my income still comes from brand partnerships
34:07I get paid by the platforms to create great content that people want to watch
34:11So wait, what do you mean by the platforms pay you like the tiktok beta the tiktok creator fund?
34:16Okay
34:17Instagram has bonuses for like threads and things like that
34:20um
34:21And then is that based on volume or based on days like what your content is and they think it's important to the community based on
34:26volume, okay in
34:28There are certain parameters. It has to reach a certain number of views
34:32It has to have a certain level of engagement, but they'll pay you for engagement above a certain amount essentially
34:38um
34:38And again, it also differs by platform. Yeah
34:41uh
34:42So brand partnerships by platforms. I have I got in advance on my books. Yes
34:47Um, I get paid for speaking gigs when I go and speak to corporates
34:52um, I get
34:54Ad revenue against my podcast
34:56um
34:57as well as you know affiliate revenue through like things like an ltk or shop my or an amazon, um, and then
35:05Uh, I also have a
35:07Subscription service that people can sign on to read my newsletter. Okay on sub stack
35:12You got it all going on. Yeah, it's like a whole empire. Um, let's what who are your biggest brands right now partnerships?
35:19Yeah, biggest partnerships are certainly
35:21Um people like sofi and marshals. They are consistent. They come back every single year
35:27We're signing partnerships for you know year long if not longer
35:32Um, and it really allows us the time to create content that isn't just so transactional and one-off
35:38Yes, um, it allows us to really dive deeper into like what is the message we're trying to send and to your point
35:43It gives us more swings at bat and maybe one swing doesn't work out
35:47But another one is an absolute walk off grand slam
35:51And that's okay because those two can even out and show still really really great continued performance and there's a reason
35:57You know, we keep working together
35:58I love working with them and i've continued to give them strong roi on their advertising dollars
36:04I love it. And let's talk about the book. I got i'm og. This is the yeah, that's not even the corrected version uncorrected proof
36:11Vivian signed it
36:13Nice so this is like
36:15The is the same cover as the new one or is it it's the same cover as the official book
36:19But it doesn't have the little white look at this. This is like an era in baseball cards. You got it
36:24This is like uncorrected proof
36:26It's tell me about this book because it's the process of like the idea of batch shooting 60 second clips
36:32That's like a whole tongue twister. Um, and then sitting down and writing like a you know, 300 page book
36:38Very different part of the brain. Yeah
36:39What made you want to do the book and kind of how did you get your ideas?
36:43And another interesting thing is that obviously you're you're you're you're you're on wall street institutional training
36:50Which a lot of times has nothing to do with personal finance
36:52Yes
36:53So, how did you kind of sit down do this and get ideas for it?
36:56Yeah, well one the reason I wrote the book was because the bffs demanded it not requested demanded demanded
37:03I was getting so many comments and dms being like where's the book like you need to write a book like we want a book
37:09We want something that can be read from page one to the very last page and help me with my entire financial journey
37:14These 60 second clips are great, but it doesn't give me the holistic view and I was like, okay, that's a fair complaint
37:20So ultimately when I decided to write the book
37:23If you read the beginning of it, I mentioned my mentor
37:26Yes
37:26She is the reason why I am strong in my personal finances as well as my ability to have been a good employee on wall
37:33street
37:34She taught me so many things that was an education. I had never gotten anywhere else. My immigrant parents were very frugal
37:41I was always good at budgeting and saving but she was the first person to talk to me about investing what a 401k was
37:46Like why I needed to have a roth ira why I should be saving money here and there and like things that I couldn't skimp
37:52on and so
37:54This was kind of in part a love letter to her to say
37:57Thank you
37:57but also a love letter to all of the bffs of being like
38:00This was the book that I wish I had had when I had moved to new york and I didn't have two nickels to rub together
38:05And it is a 101 if you want a place to springboard you on your financial journey. This is the book
38:12This is why you should read it. Um, and now we've sold over 150 000 copies. I know it's funny
38:17You're very like you're you're like you you make not you're you're very self-effacing in the beginning
38:21You're like, yeah, oh like hopefully this will sell and but it became a bestseller. It's a new york times
38:26New york times bestseller you mentioned forbes in the first sentence. So we appreciate the first page appreciate that
38:32Um, how did you kind of like there's so many finance books out there? Yeah
38:36Um, and it's not like you're inventing new things. How did you?
38:40You know put your spin on finance and how did you?
38:44Decide what goes into this? Yeah
38:47Um, I think there are so many personal finance books out there
38:51But there aren't that many personal finance books for the new generation. Okay
38:55um back in our parents generation
38:57It was kind of easy
38:58You could follow a blueprint if you worked hard if you got the right job
39:01You could end up with the white picket fence house go on two vacations a year
39:05Have your happy little family of kids end up golden retriever and retire at 60. Great
39:10That doesn't really work for my generation anymore. Um,
39:15Certainly not the wages have stagnated not gonna work for me. Not gonna work. Not gonna work
39:19um, and so
39:21Wages are stagnated home prices have skyrocketed educational costs are exponentially higher than they were when my parents went to college
39:29um
39:30You know, there is a student debt crisis people
39:33There are more and more people getting into credit card debt like it feels very doom and gloom. Yeah
39:38But i'm here to sit here and say, you know
39:41You are allowed to have an internal locus of control and recognize that all of these factors certainly make it harder. I'm not
39:48Disregarding that but you can still do certain things to put yourself in the best financial position possible
39:55and that's what makes this book different is that it really
39:58Addresses all of these realities and doesn't pretend like we live in a little vacuum
40:02Where if you do the right thing you can be rich
40:04It's like no like there are going to be things stacked up against you. You can still win
40:09Did you read you said you're a big reader?
40:11Did you read like every personal finance book out there read every you know?
40:15Personal a lot of them a lot of them and then kind of just
40:17Take those lessons and distill it in or did you talk to experts in terms of distilled it in but also, you know
40:23We talk about like writing the book how challenging that was. Um, it wasn't that challenging because
40:30When I signed my book deal for this book, I had already created content for over two years
40:36And I wrote down every single script into one word document
40:41Wow, so I already I started writing this book with a 200 page single space word document
40:47Versus a blank page. Yes, I don't start I didn't start with a blank page like most authors
40:51I had stuff that I already wanted to talk about did it reverse instead of turning like a book into a movie
40:56You turned tick tock tick tocks into a book. Yeah
40:59200 tiny movies into a book exactly exactly and so it made it a little bit easier for me
41:06To write this because I had already had a framework and also a feedback loop
41:10Yes of what people actually cared about and it's like, okay. These are the topics that hit
41:14These are the topics that people struggle with so I knew which chapters to make shorter and which ones to make longer. Yep
41:19That's you already basically have like full internet test. I beta tested the book. Yeah
41:25Although the one thing I don't agree on the first sentence is that the american dream is a lie and dead
41:31I think you're like the american dream
41:33I think the american dream has changed
41:35um, I think
41:37Back in the day. It looked a very specific way
41:40And that included a pinstripe suit and a briefcase pinstripes were out, right? Okay, please don't hurt me unless you're a yankee
41:48Okay, first off pinstripes are never out. I guess like for guys. It's kind of very like 2000s. Okay
41:53Um, you know, this is all to say like I think the american dream has changed. Yeah, it included
41:58having this very like
42:00Homogeneous looking life of like you live on wisteria lane
42:04You know, you have one breadwinner one person stays home. You have two and a half kids tire swing out front. Yeah
42:09That is not the american dream anymore. The american dream looks really different for all of us
42:12I mean look at me
42:13I make money on the internet doing what like making little videos like not to boil down like you're the taylor swift of personal finance
42:20according to your guests but like
42:23To to boil down what I do like I make money through my phone. Yes that has
42:28Like that is a dream
42:29My ancestors have only could have ever thought of in their wildest imaginations
42:34like
42:35The american dream looks really different. It doesn't necessarily include
42:39The single family home that it used to some people want to retire at 30 and live in an airstream and never buy shoes again
42:44Yes, but I think not my idea of retirement. No, not even a little bit. Um, I love shoes
42:49I love not living in an airstream, but for some people that's what it looks like
42:54And so I think the american dream as we knew it is dead
42:58I think we can still find
43:00Each of our happily ever afters and that's still very well on the life. That's very cool
43:04What you said you have a deadline for a second book. Yes, and which I feel like this is hot off the press already
43:09Yes, what is the second book and how to come about? So, uh, there's it's still in the works. Um, my manuscript is due in february
43:17Um, but i'm working on kind of like a 201. So this was a 101 book you get your money, right?
43:24But
43:25What's the follow-up?
43:26how do we
43:27Make sure that we are able to prioritize finances in all aspects of our life when it comes to our families and when it comes
43:32To building generational wealth nice. So book two is kind of the next level up
43:37I have to ask you a question because like in some ways at forbes like i'm not jealous
43:40but I think forbes is kind of like jealous of what you're doing in a way in a good way because
43:46you know
43:47I remember we tried to create like a millennial money series which you do what you do
43:52So forbes has a giant platform and we wrote stories
43:55Yeah, you know in the with the forbes knowledge and advice on like millennials on how to build and it was you know
44:01It was very static and but you took probably the same kind of information
44:05Yeah, but you really through your persona through your community really connect and i'm you've touched many more people
44:12And probably have made a lot more money than what our goal is in terms of like reaching or what mainstream media
44:18Is you're doing more than all mainstream media when they try to connect with the the younger generation you have that
44:24yeah, what do you think what advice do you have for forbes or for mainstream media to like use your
44:30You know the power of personality the power of connection the power of community to reach the audiences
44:35People don't like brands people like people. Um, so I think but they but brands are also important brands are also important
44:41But hear me out. Yes
44:42If you want to connect with an audience and have a series like this, I think what you're currently doing is very smart
44:48You are becoming
44:50The person that people can like i'm trying everyone keep on tuning in. Let's go
44:55but like people don't necessarily have to be like, oh this is by forbes to be like, oh like I love
45:00Watching steve steve is the best and that actually compels people to come back week after week
45:06As opposed to a relatively commodified service of news. Yes, right like i'm not any
45:12Different or smarter or cooler than any of these news services like they probably are getting the information way before I do and frankly
45:18I'm the one just reading it and digesting it but
45:21People are willing to watch me over them because they know I went through an egg freezing journey journey
45:26They know that we both love certain foods and hate others
45:29They have a connection to me. They have a reason to tune in and so I think to your you know
45:34What i've certainly seen on social media thus far is you building out your personal brand in alignment to forbes
45:40Is going to actually make the company more powerful and be able to connect with an audience better. All right, so if you were the
45:47The well, maybe i'll offer you maybe we'll offer you a job
45:50You were the head social media content person at forbes
45:54Yeah, or at you know any you know, like again brands offer a lot of credibility credibility. Yeah, but they don't offer the connection
46:01Yeah, so if you were in charge of like social media for a mainstream
46:06Um, you know business finance or even just news, you know
46:10Organization, what would be the first thing you do?
46:13I would create a series highlighting key players in certain products. So if I were to go to a
46:21Large i'm trying to think a large beauty brand. Okay, right?
46:24I would then go in and be like, okay who is the head of the lipsticks or this specific lipstick and
46:31You are going to share with me all of the pain points. You are going to share with me on camera
46:35You're going to share with me the process of how
46:38You know the wax goes in the tube and then is smushed into this shape and then has this logo stamped on it
46:44And then you can twist it up like you're going to show me exactly how that's made
46:47Yeah, you're going to tell me about every pain point
46:50you're going to share with me like the people in the warehouse packaging it you're going to show me every step of the process because
46:57You don't want just the final destination anymore. People want the journey
47:00They want to feel like they built it with you the story behind it all. Yeah, and I think
47:04You know i've caught like i've been really cognizant of that like when I talk about our community I say we
47:09I don't say I I don't say my yeah, I say our
47:13we because
47:15I didn't build this alone. I have
47:17Over 8 million people who have supported me and without their support. I wouldn't this wouldn't exist
47:22it's amazing and what about media because I think this like
47:25Everyone saw this coming, but I think i'm not going political here
47:27But this election I think really shook up people not that you have a podcast not that podcast decided this election
47:34but they you know, they suddenly saw like, you know, trump going on joe rogan or kamala going on alex
47:42and you know getting more reaction and more connection than if they went on like
47:46Whatever the old gatekeepers were like the 60 minutes the you know
47:49Then the meet the press like what can media do to kind of like we like all these companies have this great credibility
47:56But they don't have that that connection is it like what would you do if we're a newsroom?
48:01I mean, I would meet people where they're at. I i've seen some news organizations doing this already, but like
48:09At the moment that you are also releasing like the breaking news on paper in text
48:15You have to have a video component. You have to have a visual component
48:19because
48:20That's not how people are consuming anymore
48:22Right, like back in the heydays of like tumblr
48:26um people I remember I remember that you yeah
48:29Like people were scrolling and like sort of reading these long text-based platforms people were reading their emails
48:35But now everybody has such a short attention span you have to meet them where they're at
48:39You have to hook them you have to get them interested and you have to essentially be
48:43Where they are consuming most of their time and each of these media platforms has their own app
48:49maybe has their own site, but
48:52You do have to play with a lot of those big
48:55Like platforms like an instagram or a facebook or a tiktok because that is where the watch time is fascinating
49:01You've been you know, you have so many things going on books podcasts. You're posting all the time
49:06Where do you kind of want this all to go?
49:08Or you're very happy doesn't have to go anywhere. Are you very happy where where it's going?
49:11Like what do you see this, you know your your reputation and your brand ultimately, you know becoming
49:17Yeah, I think ultimately I want your rich bff to be something that can help
49:22Individuals like in there every single day with finances
49:25Um, I think all of this is incredible. Like i've loved getting into the entertainment business, but all of that is to power
49:33Something that ultimately would be between me and a consumer
49:36so that we can build something that is a standalone and can reach them directly versus
49:42Only promoting other brands like your rich bff ultimately
49:45I want that to be a brand that people can work with and you know utilize in their everyday lives
49:52You know, that's a perfect spot to end. I think I want to thank vivian to your rich bff
49:56Check out her podcast net worth and chill
50:00And obviously on social media everywhere. You look your rich bff. Bye guys
50:11You