Phil Smith discusses Sunderland's 0-0 draw with Burnley and takes questions from readers about all the big talking points
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00:00Good morning everyone and welcome to the latest edition of On The Whistle, where we are going
00:18to chat through Burnley Nail, Sunland Nail, one of the most remarkable nail nail draws
00:24I've ever covered. I've been doing this job for eight years now, I've been watching Sunland
00:30for nearly 30 years and you think you've seen it all really and then something else comes
00:35along to surprise you. An absolutely remarkable game. Wilson Isidor of course missing two
00:40penalties at the end of the game to secure the point for Burnley. I had a little giggle
00:46this morning when I looked up the questions you sent in and Mark Evans simply messaged
00:50me saying can I have a hug, which I think probably speaks to quite a lot of Sunland
00:55fans this morning trying to get their head around why Sunland didn't win that game. Of
00:58course you can have a big hug Mark, I'm sending one out to you. But we're all going to have
01:01a big collective hug this morning, we're going to chat through the game and we're all going
01:05to feel much better about it by the end because yes for sure, massive missed opportunity in
01:10Sunland's season and it is one of those moments because it would have been such a big three
01:13points where you do kind of feel you're going to look back at the end of the season and
01:17say that was a really pivotal moment. However, I think we're also going to have loads of
01:20positivity today about this team because you know I was chatting to somebody at half-time
01:25actually it had been a really good first half I just thought in terms of the quality of
01:28the game. Yeah there wasn't loads and loads of like gold mouth chances or like real excitement
01:34but the sort of technical quality of the game and the sort of tactical battle I just thought
01:38was at such a high level and I was chatting to one of my friends at half-time saying that
01:44it was amazing to me how much the standard of the Championship has gone up since I first
01:49started watching it. So I'd have been first watching the Championship regularly sort of
01:522003, 2004, the Mick McCarthy era. Some great teams in those days, some fantastic players
01:59who I still get very nostalgic about but I do think the standard has gone up so much
02:04in the last few years because of the quality of the coaching and the training and I think
02:08the technical and tactical ability of the players at this level, at the top of this
02:12level is really just going through the roof and spreading that out more widely. Mark,
02:16how lucky are we really from where we've come from? Yes, Sunderland should have a sort of
02:20top team at this level and we should expect them to be battling for promotion but it's
02:24not so long ago we were talking about a team sort of in the middle of League One and I
02:29do think that it's a pretty cool time to be supporting Sunderland because we'll go into
02:32the game a little bit but how cool to see a young, vibrant Sunderland team going tour
02:37to tour with a team packed with parachute pavement players. I think there's loads to
02:43be positive about even though inevitably when we do this video we're going to be talking
02:46about a fair amount of frustration and disappointment. Before I get to your questions I'll just chat
02:51through my thoughts on the game a little bit. I thought that, to be fair, I thought Burnley
02:55started much better than two teams. I thought in the opening, probably 15-20 minutes, thought
03:02Sunderland really struggled to get their press going and I think that allowed Burnley to play
03:06their game they wanted to play. Really unusual formation that Scott Parker has at the moment
03:11where he has Lyle Foster off the left who's very much a centre forward, Jadon Anthony
03:15off the right who's traditionally always been a left winger in his career. It's a little
03:19bit unusual but what it gives them is it gives them a real opportunity up against the two
03:22full backs. Foster's obviously excellent in the air as a sort of traditional target man
03:26and Anthony's so dangerous when you can attack as a space in behind. So I thought that Burnley's
03:31sort of control of possession quite high up the pitch meant that they were able to play
03:34these diagonal balls that I thought Sunderland really struggled to deal with and, to be honest,
03:38it looked like it was going to be a really long night. I thought Burnley started quite brightly.
03:42Sunderland were obviously in debt to Anthony Patterson for some really good goalkeeping early
03:46on to keep the scores level. But from about 20 minutes onwards I thought it was a really,
03:49really even game for probably 45-50 minutes either side of half-time. I thought both sides
03:56had big chances right after half-time. Zianne Flamming should have scored from that little
03:59knockdown that he put wide. Wilson Isidor almost scored after a brilliant bit of play from Enzo
04:05Lefebvre. When I watched the replay back I actually thought it was a little bit of a tougher chance
04:08for Isidor than I thought when I first saw it live and the ball was moving so quickly. I thought
04:13James Trafford, who was exceptional last night, actually did really well to close the angle down
04:17his position and was very, very good and Isidor still nearly scored. But I thought for 45-50
04:22minutes I just thought it was two really close, a really tense game that could have gone either way.
04:28Both sides felt as if they could nick something on the break when they eventually played through
04:33the press but ultimately I thought the organisation and the structure of the two teams was really good
04:37and so it was a little bit of a stalemate, albeit a bit more exciting than a traditional
04:41championship stalemate I think. So I was really impressed with someone's performance and then
04:46albeit, while acknowledging that Burnley, you could see why they conceded so few goals and
04:50have such a good home record because for all that I thought it was a very close game that
04:54they were right in. I didn't think there was much between the two teams.
04:58And then Regis Lebris did something which I thought was really, really interesting.
05:01He completely broke the game open, he gambled, he made a really aggressive attack and substitution.
05:07Chris Rigg had definitely tied in the second half, excellent through the opening stages of the game
05:10as per, but instead of bringing down another midfielder or coming up with a different way to
05:15stick with a 4-3-3, he showed his faith in Eliza Meander again, he went back to the 4-4-2 and I
05:21thought from that point on, I thought that extra injection of energy and that extra bit of pace in
05:25the forward line, I thought suddenly dominated the closing stages of the game. And I thought
05:31that ultimately they were by far the better side for the last 15-20 minutes. We talk a lot about
05:36Isidore's two penalties being saved, CJ and Rielly also made one of the best blocks I've ever seen
05:41in the flesh to deny Eliza Meander. That Meander, when the ball dropped from him in the box in
05:45between the two penalties, did everything right. When you watch that replay from behind the shot,
05:50he put it exactly where he needed to put it and Egan Rielly just comes from nowhere to turn it wide.
05:55I loved the message that Labrie sent with that substitution to the players, to the fans, to Burnley,
05:59being that we're not happy with 0-0, we think we can win this game and we're going to go and
06:03try and do it. I thought that was really, really encouraging to see. Ultimately, you'd say it's a
06:09missed opportunity for something, there's no two ways getting about it. They should have won that
06:13game and if they had not won that game, we'd be sitting here talking about them ahead of the lunchtime
06:17or three o'clock kick-offs in an unbelievable position in the table. I do think it's important
06:22when we settle a little bit that we give the players and the staff some credit as well for
06:27the quality of the performance they produced because I thought it was really excellent for
06:32large parts. So Graham over at the brilliant founded 1879 website, and if any of you haven't
06:37checked out that fan website, I encourage you to do so because the quality of the long-form writing
06:41on there is excellent. He says, why have I aged 10 years in just several minutes of football?
06:46Graham, it was incredible. It's a reporter's absolute nightmare trying to get your copy
06:53ready for the final whistle when things are changing so quickly all of the time. I've actually
06:57been struggling a little bit with the flu this week and Burnley is the only press box that's as
07:01high as the stadium light in the country. So by the time I clambered my way up to the press box
07:06for the start of the game, I was already pretty tired and by the end of it, I was about ready to
07:10be carried off because I was absolutely exhausted. But yeah, it was one of the most dramatic finishes
07:17I've ever covered. But I think Graham, maybe we're just getting old, but at least we're all getting
07:21old together. So there's something in that. So Chris says, despite ultimate disappointment last
07:27night, we showed we were right in the mix for automatic promotion. The table doesn't lie.
07:31Le Fay has strengthened a high-quality midfield. We have Pacey, Striders and players coming back.
07:35The rest of the season looks bright, but we do have to stop frittering points away.
07:39I completely agree with that assessment, Chris. Absolutely bang on. I think something should come
07:44away from last night, feeling that they have every chance of going on to make the top two this season.
07:49They shouldn't fear any team because they've shown now that they can compete with anybody
07:52on the day, home or away. I really like the blend of the squad at the moment, by and large,
07:57once you have another couple of players back, especially on that left wing. A lot to be
08:01positive about, but you're right. If there's one thing, and Labrie said this afterwards,
08:04Labrie was really positive in terms of the penalties. He says we'll review it,
08:08but it's football. It's something that happens. We have to take the positives from the quality
08:11of our performance. He did say the one thing that's really clear at the moment is that we
08:15are not a clinical team. I think he's alluding to the same thing you have there, Chris, where
08:22there are still too many points passing someone by in games where they actually probably deserve
08:26to get a little bit more. I think last night was a classic example of them just not quite
08:31being clinical enough, albeit Bernie will say they missed two huge chances that passing save
08:35I mentioned earlier on when Anthony went through on goal and that Fleming volley as well. I guess
08:39we have to keep that in perspective as well, but completely agree with your assessment
08:43in the main, Chris. Andy says just why on earth did we not give the ball to someone else for the
08:48second penalty? It was obvious that Trafford was in Wilson's head. He said also shouldn't
08:53first penner of being a free kick in a red? Yeah, the first penalty was definitely outside the box,
08:58which raises a really interesting question because if it was outside the box, and as you've alluded
09:03to there, Andy, if the referee decides that the defender hasn't made a genuine attempt to play the
09:08ball, and I think it's highly debatable whether he did, then I think it should have been a free
09:13kick in a red card. Maybe in the circumstances that would have been better for Sunderland.
09:18So yeah, I think that's an interesting one. Bernie did also say they thought what he's from
09:21the analysis that he's always offside. So I suppose that's an interesting kind of one.
09:25But I thought the second penalty, I don't think there was any doubts about it. A really poor
09:28decision to go to the ground challenge circuit. So I don't think there's any doubt about that.
09:32In terms of penalty, Andy, yeah, I think like, it's a really tricky one, because obviously,
09:37in hindsight, somebody else should have taken the penalty. I think the one thing I would say
09:41is you put yourself in the Sun players pick on the pitch in that moment. And, you know,
09:47Wilson, he still has been brilliant this season. He's a very confident striker, his finishing has
09:50been excellent. I think it's really difficult to take the ball off him at that moment if he
09:54wants to step up and take another one. And the other thing I would say is it's something I
09:59researched after Patrick Roberts missed his penalty earlier in the season, about who I thought
10:03might take the next one. Wilson Eastwood's penalty record in his career is excellent.
10:09Right through youth football, up to the early years of senior football. He has a really,
10:13really good penalty record. And probably the mistake was going for the same place.
10:18Because obviously, you know, James Trafford explained after the game that he'd researched
10:21Eastwood's penalties and he generally goes for that side. So he's kind of taking that gamble.
10:25And that was probably the mistake that was made. I think ultimately, again, though,
10:30you put yourself on Eastwood's mind. You know, he's kind of almost trusted his process, hasn't
10:34he? And stuck to what he's known and tried to double down on his conviction. And I can understand
10:38that. So I think it's a tricky one. I think it's easy in hindsight to say someone else should have
10:42taken the second penalty. And of course, that's true because someone missed it. But I think to
10:46be fair to the players, I think it's difficult to take the ball off Eastwood once he said that
10:49he wants to step up again. The other thing I would say as well is that speaking to both the head
10:53coaches after the game, they both said that they thought the penalties were good. And I don't know
10:59how you all felt watching it live. My feeling was that we were a little bit close to the goalkeeper.
11:05But Scott Parker, especially the Burnley boss, said that he felt the penalties were good. You
11:09know, Eastwood generated a lot of power. They were good penalties, confident penalties.
11:13But the Trafford's reflexes were just excellent. So I think we maybe have to give a bit of credit
11:17to James Trafford as well for some really impressive reflexes and power. But the one
11:23thing I would say is Lebris did say that there'd be sort of a team review after that. So they'll
11:27chat through whether they think it was the right thing, what they can do differently in future. And
11:31obviously, having missed two penalties now, someone will have a bit of a decision to make as
11:35as to who takes the next one. Jamie Goff says thoughts on Trafford's antics. Can't tell if
11:41I'm disappointed, but just felt it wasn't acceptable. Yeah, I have a thought on this,
11:45Jamie. I'll just have a sip of my coffee if that's OK. So obviously, as everyone watching the game
11:51will know, across the two penalties, there was about five minutes of delays. James Trafford
11:56changed his glove for the first penalty. He then got some treatment on cramp for the head of the
12:01second penalty. You know, let's be honest, it was gamesmanship. In my opinion, I think that it's up
12:08to the referee, Jamie. That's my opinion. So by not booking him for the time wasted for the first
12:13penalty, he allowed him to do it again for the second. So we booked him before the second penalty
12:18was taken. But of course, at that point, there's absolutely no jeopardy there for Trafford. So it's
12:21basically a waste of time. I think, you know, if the Sunderland goalkeeper had done what Trafford
12:27had done and saved two penalties, I think we'd be praising how clever they were, how smart they were.
12:33You know, we'd be saying that's an absolutely brilliant example of mind games and sort of
12:37seizing the moment. I think that it's really, really difficult, I think, to be critical of
12:43someone who is, you know, in the heat of a huge promotion game, just doing pretty much everything
12:47they can to get their team over the line. Two brilliant penalty saves. So I can understand your
12:52frustration. I think it was frustration for everyone from Sunderland watching on. But ultimately,
12:57that's up to the referees, the police, in my opinion, Jamie. And I think if Trafford had been
13:00booked for time wasting after the first penalty, then maybe the second one, it wouldn't have happened
13:04quite the way it did. So as far as I'm concerned, I don't have any problems with James Trafford.
13:11I think he's won a valuable point for his team. He's made two excellent saves. I kind of think
13:16fair play to him, to be honest. That's what the referee is there for. If the referee lets him get
13:19away with it, then, you know, I think it's really difficult to judge the player. So a couple of you
13:25have asked, Clayton says, any update on Mepham after he came off tonight? And then Davey said,
13:30if Mephi is out long term, Mephi? Davey says, is Mepham out long term? Will we bring another
13:35centre back? Hope he's okay. Yeah, I don't have a prognosis on Mepham's injury yet. I wouldn't say
13:41it wasn't cramp, it was a pain in the hamstring. That's obviously really concerning when you ever
13:45hear that. All we have to do now is wait and see for the severity of the injury. I think given that
13:50it's a hamstring issue, I think it's fair to say that you would be in major doubt for Tuesday's
13:54game and probably Saturday when Plymouth is at the stadium night as well. Whether there is an absence
13:59beyond that, we'll have to wait and see. But it's definitely a big injury concern. So that's one to
14:04watch. I'll get an update. I speak to Lebris ahead of the derby game on Monday afternoon,
14:07so keep your eye on all my channels for that because I'll have an update for you. But definitely
14:11a big concern coming away from the game. In terms of the transfer thing, yeah, we asked Lebris off
14:17the back of the Alessi injury on Wednesday whether he felt Sunderland had enough defenders or whether
14:21they'd go back into the transfer market. And he said that at the moment he had six defenders,
14:26that's obviously including Leo Yelder, that he really trusted and liked. And that he was happy
14:31with that number, but that would be the limit. And that if something else happened, then it was
14:35something they would have to consider. So I think in answer to your question, Davey, if Mepham does
14:38have a serious injury, yeah, I think Sunderland will have to go back into the market because one
14:42of the reasons why they haven't gone back in so far is because Luke 09 obviously offers covering
14:48the full-back positions and they really trust him in those roles. But obviously if 09 needs to play
14:52centre-half consistently because there isn't that centre-half depth, then it's something they'll
14:56need to reassess. So yes, I think they will if it's a long-term injury, but it's too soon at the
15:00moment to say whether that's the case or not. We just don't have that information yet, but obviously
15:05one to watch. Off the back of that, Chris says, is our injury level average for modern football
15:10or should we be trying to address it? This is obviously off the back of another injury this
15:13time, Chris Mepham. So I'm a little bit reluctant, as you can imagine, Chris, to get into sport
15:20science. It's not an area of expertise and it's not something I'd be particularly comfortable
15:23offering too many opinions on because I don't have that depth of knowledge. The one thing I
15:27would say is that some of you might have seen me do my stuff over on the Sunderland Echo before
15:32every Championship Cup game. I do a list of all the players who were injured for the game across
15:36both teams. I would say that I don't think Sunderland's injury list is, generally speaking,
15:43that much longer than the other teams. Every team I come across when I research their injuries and
15:48which players are absent, the vast majority have at least five or six players out with muscle
15:52injuries, impact injuries, quite often with ACL injuries. My feeling is that it's a lot about the
15:58schedule and just how much football these footballers are playing. I do think it's a
16:03pretty common theme across Championship clubs, albeit the number that Sunderland have,
16:09it's absolutely something that I'm sure that they'll be looking at and reviewing to see if
16:13there's anything they could be doing differently. I think possibly, Chris, my one theory, again
16:17without sport science knowledge, is that Sunderland is probably exacerbated this year because through
16:22the first 26, 27 games, we've obviously asked a small pool of players to play a huge amount of
16:27minutes. There hasn't been much rotation, there hasn't even been that much rotation within games,
16:32so I wonder if that's probably a factor why it's been slightly worse for Sunderland this season
16:37than it has for other clubs. But having said that, it is definitely something that all the
16:40Championship clubs are facing, Chris, so I don't think it's just a Sunderland problem specifically.
16:48Next question is from Peter who says, more of your thoughts on Lefevre's debut. Surprised you
16:51gave him a six in your player ratings. If nothing else, Sunderland's a really top player in the
16:55second half. Yeah, I mean the six was just a reflection of the fact that I think he found it
17:00hard in the main to really get on the ball and show his quality. His almost assist for Isidore
17:06was genuinely breathtaking. I think all of us in the press box, I'm sure all of you at home watching,
17:11our jaws dropped really when he spun away from Roberts. He had absolutely no right to get away
17:15from him in that tight space and the pass for Isidore was absolutely exceptional, the vision
17:19and the execution. So I'm really excited about what Lefevre can bring. The six was just a
17:24reflection of the fact that I don't think he hugely was able to get on the ball and really
17:28influence it in a way you would like to, but I'm sure that'll come in time and I'm sure that when
17:33Sunderland have their wide players back, he'll move back in field and that's where I think we'll
17:37probably see the best from. But I enjoyed his performance. I think if he does play off the left,
17:41I think he's going to be more effective in a game where Sunderland have more of the ball.
17:44I think he'll offer them something really different when they're kind of dominating
17:48possession in terms of unpicking low blocks. So I'm definitely not against him playing out wide.
17:52I'm definitely excited to see more of him. But I just think last night it was a tricky game for
17:56him to show exactly what he's all about, but we did see that quality. Interestingly, I actually
18:01spoke to Daniel after the game and one of the things he said was that obviously you can see
18:06the quality Lefevre's got. We see it in training, you've seen it in the game there. But what Daniel
18:11really liked was that he did all of the defensive work that he needed to do. There was absolutely
18:14no questions asked. He got on with it, tracked back, got stuck in and Daniel was saying that's
18:19really important for a dresser and to see that from a new player coming in. So really positive
18:23signs there. And that's about it for all your questions. Yeah, as I say, really frustrating
18:29night, but I think hopefully it's been a bit of balance in the video from all the positives that
18:34I think we can take away. I have to say as well, one of the things that really stuck with me,
18:37to be honest, was it was really nice. I mentioned this on my review and immediate instant reaction
18:42video, which is also on YouTube. If you want to go and watch that back in the press box.
18:46It's really pleased that when Isidore went over to the away end to apologise tonight,
18:49he got a big reception. Someone would not be a top two contender without Wilson Isidore. We spoke
18:55so much over the last cut two seasons about someone potentially being a contender, but just
18:59having this constant issue in the final third, which means they can't turn what is a good team
19:05into a team that can really push at the top. Isidore has been an absolutely central part of
19:08that. I thought for the main, he was excellent again last night. I thought Maxime Esteve,
19:15the Burnley centre-half, was the best player I've seen in the Championship this season. I thought
19:18he was outstanding. Real quality, but also real strength as well. It's not a combination you often
19:23see at this level. Isidore gave him what I'm sure will be one of the toughest nights of the season.
19:29He embodied what he's done for Sunderland this season. He never stopped running. He showed some
19:32good hold-up play. He got stuck in. I think he's been a brilliant player for Sunderland this season.
19:37Daniel said to me after that everyone needs to get behind him now because he's going to be a
19:40massive player in the run-in. He's been a massive player in getting Sunderland to where they are
19:44now. Yes, the penalty thing was frustrating and it's something that everyone at Sunderland will
19:48look back and review and work out what they do next time and what they can do better.
19:52We shouldn't lose sight of how far this team's come and that is in no small part
19:56that of Wilson Isidore as well. So hopefully on Tuesday night, I'm sure he will, he gets a big
20:00reception again. Really good that there's another game coming around quickly. He can get straight
20:04back to it and fingers crossed he can get back on the gold trail. So thanks for watching. Thanks
20:09for sending your questions in and I'll be back on after the Derby game. We'll have an instant
20:14reaction video from the press box at Derby on Tuesday night and I'll be back with another
20:18edition of On The Whistle on Wednesday and as I said be speaking to the Brice on Monday ahead of
20:23the Derby game so you can keep an eye on that for all of our, on the Echo website, all of our
20:27channels as well. Thanks for watching.