MEDI1TV Afrique : Zoom sur la célébration du nouvel an Amazigh - 13/01/2025
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00:00Good evening, ladies and gentlemen, Tuesday, January 14, corresponds to the first day
00:20of the year 1975 of the Amazigh calendar.
00:24On behalf of all of us here at Median TV,
00:28I wish you all a happy new year.
00:31For a year now, this celebration has been official,
00:34and tomorrow, Tuesday, is a holiday paid for in Morocco.
00:38But not only that, the Amazigh language has been elevated to the rank of official language.
00:42All this on the decision of His Majesty the King Mohammed VI,
00:46a consolidation of the unity of all the components of the Moroccan identity,
00:50as defined in the preamble of our constitution.
00:54Beyond the basic celebrations of my ancestors,
00:56such as Tagulah, Orkmen or Kouskous,
01:00which symbolize the abundance and fertility of the earth,
01:03this date represents for the Amazigh communities
01:06an opportunity to celebrate the richness of their multi-millennial culture.
01:11And as it is in use for the very first day of the year,
01:13it is also about making the point,
01:15the point on the advancement of the construction sites,
01:17so that this component finds the place that belongs to it,
01:20and also carries the voice of the Amazigh populations
01:23who live in the mountainous or remote areas,
01:26for more inclusion and socio-economic and cultural justice.
01:30I therefore welcome for the debate tonight
01:32the rector of the Royal Institute of Amazigh Culture,
01:35Mr. Ahmed Boukous, good evening.
01:37Good evening.
01:38And, Asgha Sambar, how are you?
01:40Asgha Sambar.
01:41I congratulate you, by the way, for your perfect pronunciation.
01:46It flows from the source, I want to say.
01:48All right.
01:49Also with us, a former member of the board of directors of IRCAM,
01:55therefore of the Royal Institute of Amazigh Culture,
01:59professor of economics and also a militant and author.
02:03Professor Dressrose, good evening.
02:05Good evening, madam. Thank you for inviting me.
02:07Thank you for sharing with us this set for such a beautiful celebration.
02:13So, before we start,
02:15a question really to set the scene, as they say.
02:19What is Amazigh?
02:21This is Ahmed Boukous.
02:22So, Amazigh in the literal, linguistic sense,
02:27it means free.
02:30Free of all games,
02:34whether political, economic or cultural.
02:40It means that Amazigh society is fundamentally
02:44a democratic society.
02:48Sorry, the term is a bit confusing now.
02:52So, is Berber a banned term today?
02:57Yes, we have banned it for a number of years
03:01when we understood that it derived from an infamous term,
03:07a Latin term, first Greek, then Latin,
03:12which simply means barbarian.
03:14But it is true that the Greeks and the Romans considered barbarians
03:22all peoples that are not of Hellenistic or Latin culture.
03:29So, today we are celebrating the New Year.
03:33It is not the first time we celebrate it.
03:35But, Cédric Dressrose, today it is official,
03:37Morocco institutionalizes, I want to say, this celebration.
03:44A word about Hidiener.
03:47It is a joy that Morocco officially
03:52officially celebrates the Moroccan New Year in Mazir,
03:55for all Moroccans, but not only Moroccans,
03:58because it goes very far in all the countries
04:01that have a past and a present in Mazir.
04:04And it is the second year where, indeed,
04:07this day is a national holiday, etc.
04:11It is a royal decision of May 2003.
04:14And I think that we find, indeed,
04:16I think it is a joy for all Moroccans
04:19that it is, indeed, a day when we think about what is done,
04:26what is not done, what must be done.
04:29And so, the objective is not to celebrate in itself this year,
04:32but it is really to carry the culture in Mazir,
04:35to carry the heritage in Mazir,
04:38all Moroccans, not just Amazigh or Amazigh-speaking people,
04:41as the Constitution reminds us,
04:44but which is a phenomenon that dates back 30 centuries.
04:46– There is still a lot to be done. What is left to be done?
04:48First, what has been done since May 2023,
04:53where His Majesty the King Mohamed VI...
04:54Well, of course, the work started long before that,
04:57because by this royal decree,
05:00in view of the creation of the institute
05:03of which you are the rector,
05:04the Royal Institute of Amazigh Culture,
05:05it was in 2001.
05:07So, a lot of things have been done.
05:08If we could make a kind of synthesis of it,
05:12where we are today, since 2001,
05:15and especially since 2023,
05:18where, first of all, this date is officially celebrated,
05:23and also that the Amazigh language is today
05:26at the same level as the Arabic language,
05:29the constitutional language of the Kingdom of Morocco.
05:32– Indeed, first of all, I think it should be underlined,
05:40we can say that the Amazigh language and culture,
05:43or we can speak of the Amazigh identity,
05:47or the Amazigh dimension of the Moroccan identity,
05:52well, this identity, or the recognition of this identity,
05:58comes from the darkness,
06:04the darkness that has made this identity, this culture,
06:09this language,
06:11have been up to the founding discourse,
06:14to underline it, the founding discourse
06:17of His Majesty the King Mohammed VI.
06:20So, this identity has come out of oblivion,
06:26from ignorance,
06:27and sometimes from a certain ideology
06:31that has made culture and the Amazigh language inferior.
06:35And this is very important.
06:37So, this feeling of dignity
06:41that the Amazigh community has regained.
06:45– Is the language united or divided?
06:47Or how to avoid the trap of division through language?
06:52– There has never been a division, I would say.
06:56And to the extent that the Amazigh language
07:00is spoken in certain regions,
07:04the speaking mass, we will discuss this perhaps later,
07:09the speaking mass of the Amazigh has certainly diminished
07:12over time for political reasons,
07:16for cultural reasons,
07:18and for reasons that are also related
07:22to the dependence of the Amazigh-speaking countries
07:25on the citizen economy.
07:30This means that the living masses,
07:33as we say, the living forces of the countries,
07:36are forced to leave their villages,
07:40to leave their regions,
07:44to try to find a place
07:47in the city society, in Casablanca,
07:51in Rabat, in Tangier, in Fez, etc.
07:54And it is with this process of rural exodus
07:59and forced urbanization, in a way,
08:04why do I say forced urbanization?
08:08Because this urbanization does not allow
08:11new immigrants to speak their language correctly,
08:17to live their culture,
08:20because the ambient feeling
08:23means that this language, this culture
08:26is not perceived positively.
08:30We are talking about 25% of Moroccans
08:33who speak Amazigh on a daily basis.
08:36These are the results of the last general census
08:39of the population of the High Commissioner of the Plan.
08:411.25% of Moroccans speak Amazigh today.
08:46I allow myself to dispute this percentage
08:50on the basis of a number of concrete observations
08:53that I was able to make,
08:56having observed during the last census,
08:59but not only the last census, but above all,
09:02that first of all, in several cities,
09:04the question of the language is not asked at all.
09:09We start from the principle,
09:10on the basis of the prerequisites of the census
09:15of the population of the Habitat,
09:17which has Amazigh-speaking regions,
09:18and that when we leave the High Atlas,
09:20the Low Atlas, the valleys of the Anti-Atlas,
09:23there is no more Amazigh.
09:24– That's what you were saying, precisely.
09:25– Absolutely.
09:25– This forced urbanization, or at least this rural exodus.
09:29– Proof of the support,
09:30questions have not been asked
09:31about the language spoken in the family.
09:34I assume what I say, it may be serious,
09:37but I assume it.
09:38– So this figure of 25% may be less than the reality.
09:43You would not represent, in your opinion,
09:45the reality of the number of Moroccans
09:48and Moroccans who speak Amazigh on a daily basis.
09:50– Absolutely, for the simple reason that
09:52in some questions, in some cities,
09:59investigators have claimed
10:03that they have long questionnaires
10:05and short questionnaires.
10:06I assume what I say.
10:08– I do not doubt it.
10:09– It can be serious.
10:11And the question about the language
10:12has not been asked everywhere.
10:14So we cannot consider that this figure is good or not.
10:19I go much further, much further.
10:22What is the point of asking the question to Moroccans
10:25who speak and who do not speak?
10:26The constitution says that it is the heritage of everyone.
10:30– So there, it unites more than it divides, is that it?
10:31– Of two things.
10:33Either we want to know which language they speak.
10:36In the whole country, it is necessary to do a census.
10:39By definition, it is general, it is exhaustive, it is methodical.
10:43It has not been done.
10:45I have proof.
10:46Either we consider, and this is perhaps,
10:49in my opinion, the work of the future,
10:51that the constitution considers
10:54that the royal discourse of Ajdiel,
10:57but also all the discourses of His Majesty have been clear.
11:01The constitution, article 5, as the preamble,
11:04is the common heritage of all Moroccans.
11:07Why do they need to know if it is 60 or 40 or 30?
11:11And so it is those who do not speak it.
11:14Not only must they be invited to speak it, perhaps,
11:17but at least to make them known.
11:20So this question should be taken much further.
11:25But to assume that this is the case is already a lot.
11:29Because in the questions, many also say that I am of origin,
11:32that I do not speak.
11:33And what Mr. Boukous just said, he is right that the rural exodus,
11:39the erasure of the regions in which the historical influences
11:43have made each one suffer, in the Sousse, in the Rif,
11:47in the Haut-Atlas, in the Mont-Atlas,
11:49has suffered the influences, not only of other languages,
11:52but also of the mobility of the population.
11:55The Azir language has become impoverished.
11:57It is time today to consider that it has suffered
12:00immense erosions through history, through politics.
12:05And that today, all the ingredients and all the tools are there
12:12to consider that we must go beyond the question of dialects.
12:19They exist, they are local, regional cultures, very important,
12:22but there is a language.
12:23Culture is common, there is no need to prove that.
12:28Third, indeed, it is high time not to catch up with the delay.
12:33We can't catch up with the delay.
12:34– We can remedy it.
12:35– We can remedy it by asking the question of the language,
12:40alphabetizing the Berber speakers.
12:42It's not because I speak my mother's language that I can speak the language.
12:46Because, indeed, the work that IRCAM does is a remarkable work.
12:50It is a work of convergence of regional dialects towards a language.
12:55But it is not a language that has come from, that has descended.
12:59It is a language that has ascended and that is part of what is spoken
13:03to bring forth what is common and to work on a modern language.
13:08All the Amazigh are not alphabetized in Amazigh.
13:10There are Amazigh alphabets as in Arabic, as in French, as in English.
13:14– They say that only 1.5% know how to read and write the Tifinar.
13:18This language, precisely, Amazigh.
13:20– This graph.
13:21– Yes.
13:22– That's it.
13:23– 1.5%.
13:24– It's the graph, it's not the language.
13:26– The Tifinar.
13:27– The Tifinar is the writing, it's the graph.
13:28– It's the writing and the speaking of the language.
13:31– It's the graph.
13:31– Yes.
13:32– The Tifinar is another question.
13:34First, because it is recent.
13:37Second, because the Tifinar broadcasting instruments,
13:41in my opinion, are not yet sufficiently developed.
13:45What can develop the Tifinar?
13:47It's the school, it's the media, it's research.
13:50And, another element, it's the socio-economic market of languages.
13:57A language that does not allow the laureates, the graduates of Amazigh,
14:02Arabic or English, to live from this language.
14:06Why are young people going to study, do master's and doctorate degrees?
14:10I say this to simply say…
14:12– It's a bit like the egg and the hen theory, it's the sloths.
14:14So you have to start by creating, first, people who know how to read and write the Tifinar.
14:19Or you have to create openings for them to even…
14:25– It's a question of teaching.
14:27– Yes, but…
14:28– Of the media and institutions.
14:28– What should we start with?
14:29– Sorry?
14:30– We should start by teaching the Tifinar to everyone at school.
14:36By what?
14:36Or, rather, by starting to include it also in economic activity.
14:42– The inclusion, it starts to be included in the linguistic formalism,
14:47in the media, in the indications, in the signals.
14:52– And the signals, if we can't read them…
14:54– It is taught at school.
14:55– Professor Rhoz, we can't read them.
14:57– I agree with you.
14:58– When I talk about the common of Moroccans.
14:59– It is taught at school, okay?
15:02It's already a start.
15:03It is taught in the master's.
15:05It allows research in Amazigh on Amazigh.
15:08The question that is asked today, today,
15:11you say, you quote a figure, it is worth what it is worth.
15:14I want to believe that the Tifinar could not develop
15:19if only because the plan for the development of Amazigh
15:22according to the National Education Programme,
15:25the generalization in the primary is 2030.
15:29And in 2026, 50%.
15:31I don't think we can reach 50%.
15:33I will give two examples to show that what is done is important
15:37and far from being enough.
15:39First, when we teach Amazigh in primary schools,
15:43we teach for a year, there is a break.
15:47The students who studied Amazigh in Tifinar
15:52lose it for two or three years,
15:54they recover it, they start again.
15:56A teacher is recruited, he is mutated.
15:59There is no continuity until today.
16:01Second thing, I say that we can also transcribe in French, in Latin.
16:06We can transcribe in Arabic.
16:07Obviously, the graphics are official.
16:09It's important.
16:11It's important.
16:12But I am one of those who refuse to let myself be locked in
16:17by saying that it is a difficult graphic, it is a graphic.
16:21We can very well consider that the graphic is the official graphic,
16:25but Amazigh as a culture, as a civilization,
16:31as a novel, as a song, as a dance,
16:35can be carried and Tifinar will make its way.
16:38First by the school, the media, the research
16:41and by the training of the staff.
16:42Indeed, if the market did not develop,
16:47there would be a problem.
16:48We can discuss it.
16:49– Exactly, but above all, there are these creative industries
16:52that can generate income.
16:55I would like to have your opinion on the question,
16:58if Ahmed Bokous, because we are faced with a reality
17:04that there are things that have been done,
17:06we have listed them, we cannot quote them all,
17:09but there are still things to do.
17:11Moreover, the government has said it is ready to accelerate the pace.
17:15What are the priority projects, according to you,
17:18to give value to this component of the Moroccan identity,
17:23so that it can also, not go out of the shadows,
17:27but in any case, be up to the ambitions
17:32and also the demands today of the Amazigh community?
17:37– To come back, if you allow me, to the question of censorship,
17:42indeed, as Cidris pointed out,
17:48there are a number of strictly technical aspects
17:53that have been biased and that have produced a result,
17:59results that cannot be accepted by everyone.
18:06For example, the fact of working on the basis of an extremely small sample
18:19in terms of population and also on the basis of a questionnaire,
18:25also very small, on the basis of the number of questions
18:30that are asked to the population.
18:34So, we have a questionnaire that determines the questions to be asked
18:42and implicitly those that will not be asked,
18:44and it turns out that, by chance,
18:50the question of languages is not asked in the context of the first questionnaire.
18:58The second questionnaire, which is much wider,
19:03well, you have to look at it closely.
19:05Most of the questions were about housing issues,
19:11about infrastructure issues,
19:17about the number of children in the home, the number of women, etc.
19:24But no questions about the language.
19:29– Did you contest this with the HCP?
19:31– Listen, yes, we contested afterwards,
19:36but a priori, we did our job,
19:41which consists of giving our opinion to the HCP.
19:48Mr. L'Helimi, in a very courteous way,
19:52consulted IRCAM on this issue.
19:58And IRCAM produced an extensive note on,
20:04first of all, the place that must return to the language,
20:07on how to understand this question,
20:12and finally on the formulation of the questions.
20:19It is hard to believe that this opinion of IRCAM was passed in silence, unfortunately.
20:26So the question is, if we want to consider that the results are credible,
20:33are acceptable from the point of view of international standards in terms of census,
20:41we have to look at what is happening in other countries.
20:45We have to do a benchmark to see if our approach in 2014 was good or not.
20:53At IRCAM, we had already said at the time that it was not the best approach.
21:00– Is this going to distort public policy?
21:04– Absolutely. – How?
21:05– Because you just said the magic word,
21:09which is really essential in this whole story.
21:13It is the term public policy.
21:15What would the results of a given census be used for
21:21if these results could not or should not be taken into account
21:28in the elaboration of public policies?
21:31If I ask the question, how many Moroccans speak Amazigh,
21:35it means that if there is a strong proportion,
21:40it means that we have to increase the loans,
21:42the Ministry of Finance has to give more money.
21:47– To whom?
21:49– To the government, to train more teachers,
21:52– To whom?
21:54– First of all, if we are saying that by 2024,
22:00normally 31% of primary education institutions teach Amazigh,
22:04that 50% of the recruitment of specialized teachers this year has been increased.
22:09Complete generalization is planned for, as you said, CIRROS 2029-2030.
22:14So that's it, that's the budget that Amazigh language needs today
22:19to be taught, to be democratized, in the end.
22:24– So, you know that there is a completely illegitimate answer, I would say,
22:30since it is the Organic Law 26-16 that gives us the answer.
22:37What is this answer?
22:38We are told, listen, we cannot achieve, for example,
22:44total, ascending and descending generalization of Amazigh education.
22:50It will take time, and that is why we have defined short-term objectives,
22:57medium-term objectives, and long-term objectives.
23:03Now the question is whether, since the promulgation of this law,
23:09we have achieved short-term objectives.
23:12I am forced to say no, no, because these figures that are advanced,
23:19they should also be questioned.
23:22For example, the issue of teachers.
23:26The issue of teachers is a crucial issue.
23:30However, the policy of the Ministry of National Education
23:33has always diverged, if you allow me,
23:37between a solution that would consist of training versatile teachers
23:45capable of teaching science, math, French, Arabic, and Amazigh.
23:52So, you can imagine that this is Hercule's third job.
23:59It is impossible to achieve that.
24:02And we have realized this thing,
24:04that is, the inadequacy of the approach of the versatile teacher,
24:11and we said to ourselves, we have to train specialized teachers.
24:15For a few years, we have indeed trained teachers,
24:20trained specifically in the field of Amazigh didactics,
24:25not didactics of other languages, didactics of Amazigh,
24:29so that the teacher knows exactly how to teach Amazigh.
24:34For medium-term goals, quickly to finish on that.
24:36So, for medium-term goals, we are told,
24:42in my opinion, in a slightly light way,
24:45that we will move on to teaching Amazigh
24:48at the college level and soon at the high school level.
24:51But this is an irrational approach.
24:56Irrational.
24:58The word is said.
25:00Well, we will finish on a rather personal note.
25:03I would like each of you to share with us your word,
25:07a word in Amazigh, its meaning and its symbolism.
25:09Cidris Rose.
25:11A word?
25:12In Amazigh.
25:15Tatfi.
25:16Meaning?
25:17Tatfi, imim, tatfi, it's the sweetness, it's everything that comes from honey.
25:24And so the symbolism is that...
25:25Asgwas, asgwas yatfot, nasgwas samzag, asgwas yorodan, asgwas yifulkin.
25:33Sehmet Bokus, a word?
25:35A word, I would say,
25:38tawizi or tawiza, which means solidarity.
25:41Because the whole traditional Amazigh society
25:45was founded on this,
25:47on the solidarity of the members of the community.
25:50But because of the domination of a mode of production,
25:54Cidris knows this better than I do,
25:57a capitalist mode of production,
25:59which means that we force the living forces of the countryside
26:06to sell or rent their labor force in the cities.
26:10This is a loss to be made compared to traditional communities.
26:15So what should we do?
26:17We should help the emergence of an endogenous development model.
26:23Rural.
26:23Rural and based above all on the intelligences
26:30that our own community develops.
26:33And solidarity, you said, it's...
26:35Tawizi or tawiza.
26:37Tawiza, ratinaf.
26:38Exactly.
26:40Thank you very much.
26:41Thank you very much Sehmet Bokus.
26:43Thank you very much Cidris for this great pleasure.
26:45This is the end of this special episode,
26:48New Year in Amazigh, once again,
26:50Gassan Bar, Kifloun.
26:52Excellent evening to all of you too.