France has marked 10 years since an Islamist attack on the satirical newspaper Charlie Hebdo that shocked the country and led to fierce debate about freedom of expression and religion. FRANCE 24's Sharon Gaffney speaks to Jacob Mchangama, founder of “The Future of Free Speech” think tank and research professor at Vanderbilt University. He says that terrorism has curtailed freedom of expression, adding that France's "schizophrenic" approach helps erode the culture of free speech.
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00:00This is apropos. Well as France commemorates the victims of the deadly
00:06assault on Charlie Hebdo ten years ago, the satirical magazine has published a
00:11special so-called God-mocking edition to mark the anniversary of the jihadist
00:16attack. It centers on the paper's trademark theme freedom of expression as
00:21Yinka Oyatali explains. Exactly ten years on from the deadly terror attack on its
00:28officers, Charlie Hebdo wants to show it's uncowed and still provoking. To
00:34commemorate the anniversary, the French satirical newspaper publishing this
00:37special edition, the word indestructible splashed across the front page. Its dark
00:43humor still very much alive and so is the pain of that fateful day.
00:48It's a shame. It's a shame what happened. It shouldn't happen. Freedom of press,
00:53freedom of expression. We're in France. We have the right to say everything. That's
00:58the message the satirical weekly wants to pass on in its latest edition. Inside
01:03it's published 40 winning entries from a cartoons competition it organized
01:07calling for artists to mock God and religious leaders. The paper also
01:11reprinted its controversial depiction of Prophet Muhammad, a cartoon that triggered
01:16the attack by jihadist government in 2015 which left eight staff members dead.
01:21Charlie Hebdo is undeterred but this cartoonist says the industry did not
01:25survive the massacre unscathed. It's quite strange because after 2015
01:31cartoonists were regarded as heroes of democracy but it all died down very
01:35quickly and if you look at the sales of Charlie Hebdo and newspapers in general
01:40you can see that the dust settled very quickly. Now it's coming back with the
01:4510th anniversary. It's a bit of a shame that we have to take an interest in
01:49cartoons only when we remember the attacks. This week's edition will also
01:54feature a survey carried out by EFAP on attitudes in France towards press
01:59freedom. It found that 76% of respondents believe freedom of expression and the
02:04freedom to caricature were fundamental rights while 62% think people have the
02:09right to mock religious beliefs. For more we're joined now by lawyer, human rights
02:15advocate and expert on free speech Jacob Machangama who's founder of the
02:20think-tank the future of free speech as well as being a research professor at
02:24Vanderbilt University. Thank you so much for being with us on the program this
02:28evening. As we heard there in that report cartoonists say their job has changed
02:33significantly particularly here in France since the Charlie Hebdo attack. So
02:38when it comes to freedom of speech has terrorism won as some suggest? I hope it
02:45hasn't won but it has certainly pushed the limits of free speech and curtailed
02:52our freedom to express views that we took for granted before this this threat.
02:58And of course it's not only cartoonists you know it's teachers in
03:03France. It's five years ago since he was was killed. So this is a real
03:08threat against freedom of expression in in Europe. And what are your particular
03:14concerns when it comes to the situation here in Europe and particularly here in
03:18France about the rise of restrictive legislation and the approach to freedom
03:23of expression? So I think one of the great ironies is that France has been
03:31French governments both Hollande and Macron have been very strong in
03:35condemning attacks on cartoonists defending the right to blaspheme but at
03:42the same time France has adopted pretty strict laws against glorification of
03:49terrorism for instance that have been used even against political expression.
03:54And so I find it I understand the urge because France has been subject to a
04:01wave of deadly terrorism that has targeted people for speaking out. But
04:06it's difficult to defend freedom of expression by restricting it. So I think
04:11that is something that is concerning because that too will undermine free
04:16speech in the long run. And Jacob does all of this leave any space for satire
04:21if the fear of causing offense to certain groups is that actually killing
04:26the medium itself do you believe? I hope it's not killing it and of course it's
04:32fine to be offended. I'm sure many people from the left or from the right have
04:39been offended by Charlie Hebdo. But the problem is when you react with violence
04:44or when you demand that the law should should limit the right to to offend.
04:49That is the big problem. And you can understand why a lot of cartoonists
04:53don't are fearful of of drawing cartoons because who wants to to to be killed.
05:01We should also remember that it's it's 2025 also marks the 20th anniversary of
05:06the Danish Mohammed cartoons and that they are part of the reasons why Charlie
05:11Hebdo was attacked because Charlie Hebdo was one of very few magazines in
05:15democracies that had the courage to reprint these cartoons in solidarity with
05:20the Danish newspaper Jyllandsposten that was subjected to terrorist attacks and
05:24that ultimately resulted in this attack. So this is an ongoing threat that has
05:29been going on for a long time with huge repercussions for free speech in Europe.
05:35Annie, you've said in the past that the culture of free speech that can
05:38essentially be more important than the laws that are in place to protect free
05:43speech or when it comes to censorship. Traditional media outlets currently they
05:49express a lot of you know wariness about approaching certain subjects because of
05:53the backlash that they're afraid that they might receive online. So how is the
05:58whole internet forum, social media forums, websites, how are they affecting
06:04censorship and the right to the freedom of expression?
06:09Well I think when it comes to the culture of free speech the internet has
06:13both great potential but also some drawbacks. It has great potential in the
06:21sense that it has given a voice to a lot of people who previously did not have a
06:25voice but it's also true that when you encounter the voices of everyone then
06:30you also hear extremism, you hear things that you don't want to like, that you
06:36don't like. And I think we have to develop a culture where we're more
06:41robust, where our response to being confronted with things that we find
06:45offensive should not be to try and get it get it shut down. And I think it's
06:52extremely unhelpful if traditional media for instance self-censor out of fear for
06:57attacks by terrorists for instance. That helps the case of violent terrorists. And
07:05of course it's easy for me to say that that journalists and editors should be
07:08brave when they ultimately risk their lives but we have to remember and France
07:12knows this very well at the country that the freedom of expression was a right
07:16that was won through bloody revolutions and a lot of people paid a very high
07:22price for it so it's not a right that we should give up easily.
07:25And the approach can also seem slightly contradictory. You've also pointed out
07:29that the French president while he defends on one hand the right to
07:33blasphemy while also rejecting for example kind of a jihadist veto following
07:39the attacks on Charlie Hebdo following the murder of Samuel Paty also he's
07:44banned more civil society organizations than any other modern French president.
07:50Yeah. Yes. I think this is back to the schizophrenia of the French approach to
07:56to to freedom of expression. And I think ultimately this helps erode the culture
08:03of free speech because when you want on the one hand have a government that
08:07says everyone has the right to offend. We have to stand firm on free expression
08:10but then at the same time bans organizations because they say things
08:16that are offensive or deemed extremist by the government. Then that is not a
08:22consistent or principled approach to free speech. And without a higher degree
08:26of consistency and principle I don't think you you really have an effective
08:31guarantee for free speech. So I worry that free speech in France and Europe
08:35more generally is under pressure from from various sides. I mean I'm a Danish
08:40citizen even though I live in in the U.S. but Denmark last year introduced a
08:44law that would prohibit the the burning of holy books for instance out of fear
08:53of of terrorism. And I think most people would agree that burning a Koran or a
08:59Bible is not a nice and a polite thing to do. But when when governments
09:04criminalize that say we're going to put you in prison if you if you mark holy
09:09books then they're also saying that religious feelings religious doctrines
09:14and the most extreme voices get to have a veto. And so these kinds of
09:19developments put free expression under pressure from from from various sides in
09:25Europe unfortunately. But Jacob do certain norms not need to be imposed in
09:29the name of tolerance? Some argue that self-censorship censorship actually
09:34becomes necessary if we don't want to offend or hurt members of certain
09:39religious or ethnic groups. Well I mean everyone self-censors every day just
09:48that's necessary to to live in a in a society. But if you self-censor out of
09:53fear of being of being killed then that I think is extremely problematic. And
09:59and when it is specific specifically when it comes to religion I think it's
10:03extremely important that we're allowed to criticize religion and even mock
10:09religion. That has been an extremely important part of getting to free and
10:14open democracies. It's not that long ago in European history that that when you
10:22did that that could have very serious consequences for you. I mean it's one of
10:28the reasons why the French Enlightenment was such a monumental event because in
10:33Enlightenment philosophy challenged the authority of the of the church,
10:37challenged the authority of religion and that should not be rolled back. And Jacob
10:42historically speaking the left we might say was opposed to censorship. Many on
10:46the left though they now support restrictions. We see that in ongoing
10:50debates about cancel culture and also limits that are being imposed on
10:54academic freedom. Why is that? I think there is a tendency among some on the
11:02left to say that free expression and equality are clashing. I think that's a
11:08misguided understanding. I think free speech and equality are mutually
11:15reinforcing rather than mutually exclusive. I think every oppressed
11:18marginalized group has relied on speech to make their case to argue for
11:24acceptance equality. So it may be out of good intentions not wanting to
11:31offend or marginalize minorities but what often happens is that you know
11:37these limits will be defined and enforced by the majority. So if you are a
11:41minority you're only ever a political majority away from being the target
11:45rather than the beneficiary of such laws. So I think those on the left who think
11:49that limiting free speech benefits minorities are seriously misguided.
11:55It's a fascinating topic. Jacob thank you so much for your time with us on the program.
11:58That is Jacob Machangama founder of the think tank the future of free speech.
12:03Well that is it from us.