As 2024 concludes, Nagen Singh, Editor at Oneindia, engages in a comprehensive interview with veteran journalist Shastri Ramachandaran delving into new geopolitical developments. They discuss China's strategic move to supply Pakistan with 40 advanced J-35 stealth fighter jets, marking Beijing's first export of fifth-generation aircraft to a foreign ally. The acquisition is poised to significantly enhance Pakistan's air defense capabilities, potentially altering the regional power balance. Additionally, the conversation explores the unprecedented agreement for Pakistan Army officers to train Bangladeshi soldiers starting February 2025, a collaboration not seen since 1971.
#India2025 #PutinsNewRole #PakistanArmy #BangladeshCrisis #ChineseJets #Geopolitics2025 #IndiaPolitics #PakistanChinaRelations #BangladeshConflict #IndiaFuture #PutinPower #SouthAsiaTensions #IndianDefense #PakistanMilitary #StrategicShifts
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#India2025 #PutinsNewRole #PakistanArmy #BangladeshCrisis #ChineseJets #Geopolitics2025 #IndiaPolitics #PakistanChinaRelations #BangladeshConflict #IndiaFuture #PutinPower #SouthAsiaTensions #IndianDefense #PakistanMilitary #StrategicShifts
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NewsTranscript
00:00Shastri ji, how do you see this latest development that the Pakistani army will be going to Bangladesh
00:06to train the Bangladeshi army?
00:09India, one can say, aided, assisted, encouraged, supported, and contributed to the liberation
00:17of Bangladesh from the stranglehold of West Pakistan.
00:21So naturally, in recent years, India has managed its relationship with Bangladesh in such a way
00:30that it does not enjoy amicable relationships.
00:34Who is responsible for all the Hindus being targeted in Bangladesh?
00:40Government of India should raise its voice, not only against the persecution of Hindus
00:44in Bangladesh, but it should raise its voice against the trampling of democracy.
00:50What has changed for India in recent years, or in a decade, that India is not in a comfortable
00:57situation around its neighbours?
00:59While India has broadly accepted this, in principle, and you cannot conduct diplomacy
01:05or any negotiations in Russia without that, successive political leaders have somehow
01:11failed to accept this reality.
01:15Do you think that Russia would ever, you know, play any role or will come in such scenario
01:24because obviously China will be with Pakistan?
01:27No.
01:28War is an extension of not only politics, and in the case of developing countries, an
01:32extension of their domestic politics to the neighbourhood and the foreign affairs arena.
01:38Hello and welcome to One India.
01:40Today, we are going to discuss about what is happening in the Indian subcontinent.
01:46You do know that the Pakistani army, they will be going to Bangladesh after 53 years
01:53to train the Bangladeshi army against whom they fought in the past.
01:58And India was the country which helped Bangladesh in the liberation.
02:03But now today, the situation is completely changing.
02:06So we want to understand what's next for India and how the relationship of India has
02:13changed with Nepal, Bhutan, and so many other countries which are India's neighbours.
02:19Thank you so much, Mr. Shastri Ramachandran for joining us.
02:23Shastri ji is a senior journalist, and he will tell us more about the politics of the
02:30Indian subcontinent.
02:32So Shastri ji, how do you see this latest development that the Pakistani army will be
02:37going to Bangladesh to train the Bangladeshi army?
02:41Okay, I will take this one by one.
02:44You have kind of loaded many questions in one on my plate.
02:48So the first thing, your question about Bangladesh was in two parts.
02:53The first part was that is cooperation with Pakistan after 53 years, when India helped
03:00Bangladesh in its liberation.
03:01The first thing I want to say is my view of this is very different.
03:07There seems to be a large section in India which believes, and this is officially conditioned
03:14thinking throughout the several governmental changes of the last several decades, that
03:21but for India, Bangladesh would not have been free or liberated.
03:25But first and foremost, we should get this very clear that the people of Bangladesh had
03:31always been straining at the leash under the dictatorship of West Pakistan.
03:38And they, as East Pakistan, had always been raring to break away.
03:43So it is not just the sentiment or the emotion that was there.
03:47More than the urge, there was a resolve to seize any opportunity to do that.
03:54So India, one can say, aided, assisted, encouraged, supported, and contributed to the liberation
04:03of Bangladesh from the stranglehold of West Pakistan.
04:08Now, however, to expect that Bangladesh should be graceful to India, which has been said
04:13in many narratives, you did not say that.
04:15Now, I think this is expecting a little too much, because after all, India did not do
04:21this for altruistic reasons or charitable reasons, or out of some sentimental generosity.
04:28India did this for its own security objectives and strategic reasons by a very shrewd political
04:34leadership, which was supported by all parties across the political spectrum.
04:40It would be as absurd for India to claim the, what shall I say, the credit for Bangladesh
04:49liberation as it would be for the Soviet Union to claim the liberation of Bangladesh,
04:55because then Russia would say, oh, we supported India.
04:57And because we supported India, India could liberate Bangladesh.
05:01So this is a narrative I don't share, which I think is doing a lot of harm to perceptions
05:06of Bangladesh and also damaging India-Bangladesh relationship because of this imperial,
05:13imperial, within quotation, perceptions.
05:16Second thing, so naturally, in recent years, India has managed its relationship with
05:23Bangladesh in such a way that it does not enjoy amicable relationships with all political
05:30sections in Bangladesh.
05:32And it should have reviewed the situation first, long before it came to the trance,
05:38where Sheikh Hasina had to flee and take refuge in India.
05:42We should have been alert to the situation first and counseled her if she was open to
05:48heeding our counsel.
05:50And thirdly, establish relations with all parties across the spectrum in Bangladesh,
05:56because it's always there is government-to-government relationship, country-to-country relationship
06:01and people-to-people relationship.
06:03So at all levels, we should have kept our channels open.
06:07The third point is where you have said they cooperate.
06:10So with whom would Bangladesh cooperate in the region?
06:12After all, it is India, New Delhi, the present government that took its domestic policy of
06:20communalization of politics to foreign affairs.
06:23And it categorized Bangladesh, Pakistan and Afghanistan in a single category from where
06:31it said Hindus would be welcome to India, implying that they are all subject to persecution
06:37then.
06:38Now, if the policy was to help Hindus in South Asia, as I raised the question then, and I
06:44repeatedly raised in several forums, why were the Tamil of Sri Lanka left out?
06:49After all, they are the largest Hindu population outside India and South Asia.
06:54But the fact that the government of India chose Pakistan, Bangladesh and Afghanistan,
06:59willy-nilly we had cast them into a category where we assumed that they would act as one
07:05against India.
07:06And we also acted in the same way.
07:08So in a sense, the logic of perceptions perhaps had a basis, but it is that basis which has
07:15now driven Bangladesh to have cooperation with Pakistan, including military cooperation.
07:20It's certainly not heartening for India to see this, but I don't think there is any reason
07:27for India to fear either Pakistan or Bangladesh.
07:31After all, Pakistan is a challenge only because it's a nuclear power.
07:35Otherwise, both our military and political leadership have never expressed the least
07:40kind of, what shall I say, the least expectation that Pakistan would pose a challenge at any
07:47time.
07:47They have said they are prepared for more than a two-front war.
07:50And Bangladesh is too weak.
07:52Both countries have both economic and political wars at home to be cohesive and united to
07:59pose a challenge to any other country.
08:01But there are two more important questions.
08:03One is of Muhammad Yunus' stand.
08:06He is going to China.
08:08He's also saying that India is not helping in the extradition of the previous Prime Minister
08:14Sheikh Haseena.
08:16And she's still in India since she fled Bangladesh.
08:21So what India should be doing in this scenario?
08:24And the second question is about who is responsible for all the Hindus being targeted in Bangladesh?
08:33Okay.
08:33To take the first question as far as Muhammad Yunus is concerned, regardless of his actions,
08:40whether it is pro-India, pro-China or whatever, he is clearly perceived to be in all sections
08:47and let us say an instrument of Western interests in the region, not primarily Chinese interests
08:53in the region.
08:54So we have to assume that even his engagement with China is guided by Western interests
09:01that are supporting him, including international capital and major global powers.
09:07Without that, he would not be engaging with China or other countries to whom he has reached
09:12out, especially with an eye on building flanks against India.
09:16The second, as far as the Hindus as a minority are concerned, I think there are clashes.
09:22Some of them have been targeted.
09:24There are Hindus also in the ruling dispensation, just as there are a large number of influential
09:29Muslims in the Bharatiya Janata Party in India.
09:33And I suppose the persecution of Hindus and the attacks on them have been exaggerated
09:40in India for obvious reasons.
09:42You know, we don't need to go into the reasons for that.
09:45This is a legacy of our politics from 1947.
09:49No government has been able to break away from this legacy.
09:52And this legacy has been responsible for riot after riot right from the 1960s and 70s onwards.
09:59So that is a legacy that is best left apart, I feel.
10:05Except to say that, yes, government of India should raise its voice not only against the
10:11persecution of Hindus in Bangladesh, but it should raise its voice against the trampling
10:17of democracy, you know, and multi-party politics in Bangladesh.
10:21And India's credentials would be better to do the job if it created a better record at
10:29home.
10:30That's all I would like to say.
10:31And wherever people, Indians are in another country, whether they are Hindus or otherwise,
10:38they have to accept the conditions of that country and the government of that country.
10:45In this, I agree with the view of Jawaharlal Nehru long back that it is not the concern
10:51of the government of India what is happening to Indians in all other countries in the world.
10:55When they have gone there, they have taken citizenship, cast their lot and made their
11:00fortune there.
11:01They should be able to negotiate their ways without turning to the government of India,
11:05which may choose to intervene for its own political, diplomatic, strategic and security
11:11reasons and not always necessarily in the interest of those who are victimized.
11:16But then it also becomes the similar situation should be applied for all those who are in
11:22India and the government change and the government supporting Hindus.
11:27So similar sort of, you know, situation can arise in India.
11:32I think there are many who would draw such a parallel.
11:36I would not fault them.
11:37But at the same time, I would hesitate to agree with you or people who make that point
11:43because then both of us would be in the wrong if I agreed with that.
11:46So because I think there is a vast difference.
11:49India's diversity is too enormous to be uniformized, you know, to be destroyed by a single stroke.
11:57Because if you look at India's diversity, the depth of its cultural, ethnic, religious
12:03and, you know, many multifarious identities, tribal and caste and things like that.
12:08It is not conceivable for any single political entity to suppress and crush and melt all
12:16these things in a crucible into a single identity.
12:18Nobody has succeeded in this.
12:20If this was possible, then on the positive side, we would have been able to eliminate
12:25caste many years ago.
12:27But for thousands of years, we have not been able to eliminate caste.
12:31And caste is a very important identity in India.
12:34So I don't think that on the negative side also, anybody would be able to do this.
12:41Because, for instance, now I'm speaking to you.
12:45If you go to the south, Bangalore, Tamil Nadu, Kerala, Karnataka, Terengana, Andhra Pradesh,
12:51there is no Hindu-Muslim issue at all.
12:54This is not there in Bengal.
12:57It is not there so much except in some parts of Maharashtra.
13:01It is not there in the northeast.
13:03This is something that has been engineered and manufactured for narrow political gains.
13:09So I don't think this is in any way on a scale comparable to the persecution of minorities
13:17in Bangladesh.
13:17No, it is not there on that scale in India.
13:20But the Indian government's stand for Hindus has that impacted over a relation of India
13:26with multiple countries.
13:28Even with Nepal, we have seen that India does not have as relationship as we used to have.
13:37Same is the case with Maldives.
13:39Then it is same with Bhutan.
13:41We have our differences on certain areas and certain border issues that we have with Bhutan
13:48as well.
13:49So what has changed for India in recent years or in a decade that India is not in a comfortable
13:56situation around its neighbors?
13:58Well, this is a question, again, that has not happened just with this government.
14:04For long years, if you go back, even during Indira Gandhi's time or Ajay Gandhi's time,
14:11India has had this problem of being unable to come to terms with its size.
14:17You know, I wear shoes which are very large size.
14:20You know, it is 13 plus extra wide.
14:24So when I walk, I have to be very careful.
14:25I don't tread on lesser toes.
14:29So I would apply the same thing to India.
14:32Nepal cannot increase its size any more than India can reduce its size.
14:37So all countries have to come to terms with what is called the Westphalian principle of
14:43a state, its sovereignty.
14:45You know, the sovereignty is that all are equal.
14:49You are not equal, more or less, according to your size.
14:52You're equal as a nation state.
14:55So I think India has, while India has broadly accepted this in principle, and you cannot
15:01conduct diplomacy or any negotiations in Russia without that.
15:05In successive political leaders have somehow failed to accept this reality and confine
15:14themselves to whatever limitations it has.
15:18For instance, one might say, OK, Prime Minister Modi is doing this.
15:23But Rajiv Gandhi, during a short time, he shut all the trade and transit points between
15:29India and Nepal, you know, and even essential commodities were not moving about.
15:34So over time, this has had its ups and downs.
15:38And during the time of Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, it was more a situation of benign neglect.
15:46You know, there was not much attention paid to the neighborhood.
15:50Whereas now when attention is paid, one finds the attention is rather something not entirely
15:57in a desirable way.
15:58So there is definitely scope for India to improve its relationship with Nepal.
16:03In fact, it would be easiest because first and foremost, it has to be recognized that
16:08Nepal is not a Hindu state or a Hindu country.
16:12There are these Zandati, there are these Muslims, there are people who have come from Burma
16:16who migrated there from Kashmir 300 years ago.
16:19So we cannot see them as a mirror image of a Hindu majority nation, which we are in fact.
16:26But this has created at one level, a conflict of perceptions, which in turn has come into
16:35the political class.
16:36Then India also feeds its size, its largeness makes it, you know, perhaps it tends to dominate
16:45without being aware of where it is dominating and which areas it should leave to the neighbors
16:50to do it.
16:51The third thing is, so the smaller neighbor at some point or the other begins retaliating
16:59in terms of rhetoric because they cannot retaliate in real terms.
17:04They cannot in any way twist India's arm.
17:06So what will Nepal do?
17:08They will draw a different border on their currency note.
17:10They will raise a border issue which causes discomfiture to India.
17:14You know, same thing Bhutan will do.
17:17It will kind of needle India at China.
17:20But both Nepal and Bhutan know very well.
17:24And everybody in India also knows that well.
17:26And the rest of the world knows that China can never do for Nepal or Bhutan what India
17:33has done and what it is doing.
17:35There are so many Nepalis in India, you know, that itself testifies to the long civilizational
17:41bond.
17:42And there are people to people relationship with something very deep rooted.
17:46There are, of course, people who foolishly think both countries are one and the same.
17:50That is not the case.
17:51Now, in the same way, when a new government came in Maldives, it was needless to provoke
17:59the president.
18:00You know, earlier India was identified with the previous government.
18:04So when there is a change of government, instead of adapting to the new realities, I mean,
18:11foreign policy was reduced to trolling the president of the country.
18:14What is Lakshadweep?
18:16I don't think many Indians, let's say 70 lakh Indians were against Maldives.
18:22Do 70 lakh Indians know where is Maldives?
18:24How many islands it has?
18:25How many rooms each of those islands have?
18:28Lakshadweep doesn't have the rooms to accommodate tourists at even one island in the archipelago
18:34of Maldives.
18:34So without being aware of any of these realities, people just feel, oh, they should not stand
18:41up to us.
18:41How dare they behave as equals.
18:43Thankfully, very quickly, I think better sense prevailed and this was kind of checked
18:50and we restored relationship with Maldives.
18:53But again, it will take time now.
18:55It is on demand, but it is going to take time.
18:58With Bangladesh, we are yet to reach the point where we accept that things have to be on
19:02demand.
19:03We have not yet reached there.
19:04And the situation of Bangladesh and Pakistan also makes it sure that the progress that
19:10we had achieved with external affairs minister visiting Pakistan, that any gains made by
19:18that are being eroded by the kind of rhetoric we hear now from members of the ruling party,
19:24but not necessarily from the political leadership in government.
19:28Now, here again, you mentioned China, which is relevant for Nepal, India-Nepal relationship
19:34for India-Bhutan, as well as for Pakistan and Bangladesh.
19:38And not only because Muhammad Yunus from Bangladesh has gone there or because Pakistan is
19:43now said to be buying 40 J-35 stealth fighter jets from China.
19:51So, before going into this issue of do China and Pakistan pose a threat to India, which
19:57would be obviously a question you would have on follow up, why don't we recognize the wisdom
20:04and pragmatism of both Prime Minister Narendra Modi and Chinese President Xi Jinping in having
20:10met each other, you know, after four years after the Galwan violence, accepting the reality
20:16that these two most populous countries in the world have no choice but to live together
20:23and work together, come to terms with each other and move ahead together, not only in
20:29their economic development, but also to find their rightful place in the world.
20:35And also in terms of the world power structure, the architecture of international financial
20:40institutions, and international institutions like the United Nations, unless these two
20:45countries are together, neither of them will be able to make any advances in that direction.
20:51But when it comes to, you know, war, we are already seeing so many wars going on.
20:57And it doesn't seem like any of these is going to stop.
21:02Now, Israel is into Syria and Syria is in war now.
21:07Same is happening in Russia, Ukraine, that it won't stop soon with the way Russia is
21:12attacking Ukraine and Ukraine attacking back.
21:15So when it comes to all these wars, and if there is such a situation where India is at
21:21clash with Pakistan, of course, China will be with India.
21:25Do you think that Russia would ever, you know, play any role or will come in such scenario,
21:33because obviously, China will be with Pakistan?
21:36No, war is an extension of not only politics, and in the case of developing countries and
21:42extension of their domestic politics to the neighborhood and the foreign affairs arena.
21:48But it's also an extension of diplomacy or lack of diplomacy, whatever it is a form
21:52of diplomacy war also is.
21:54Now, first and foremost, I do not see any possibility of a war between India and Pakistan.
22:02Both are nuclear power nations and neither country with a nuclear weapon would seek to
22:09confront another because both will perish.
22:12And neither India nor Pakistan.
22:16And let us say the bigger powers with which they are engaged in a friendly, positive and
22:23developmental way, such as China and Russia, are not interested in seeing any conflict
22:29in this region.
22:30Because China knows that if there is an India-Pakistan conflict of any sort, it is bound to be drawn
22:36into it.
22:37And China would not like to be drawn into a conflict to take sides.
22:41Because China, like India, wants to rise on the world stage.
22:47And they fear that India, in alliance with the West, including the United States, and
22:55the mechanisms it has created, like with Japan and Australia and the US and India, that these
23:02mechanisms are intended to contain China.
23:05So this is China's perception.
23:07India's perception or the feeling in India, China is trying to keep us down, not only
23:12in Asia, but on the world stage.
23:15I think both these countries have to address each other to disabuse the political leadership
23:23of the other country that this is not the intention, because it does not serve their
23:28purpose.
23:29Second thing, it only provides an opening for the arms merchants of the world to keep
23:34selling weapons.
23:36So it is only a technicality for them, for the US, for instance, or for any weapons manufacturer,
23:43whether they're selling to India or to Pakistan, they'd obviously sell to countries in conflict.
23:48And at some point, it becomes difficult to say whether the arms sales are happening because
23:53of the conflict or the conflict, although a low intensity conflict is driving the arms
23:59sales.
24:00It's like a chicken and egg situation.
24:02So there are powerful interests, which want the conflict between India and Pakistan and
24:07China to be kept at a level that it will not affect the sales figures of weapons.
24:14And for the arms manufacturer, it doesn't make any difference.
24:17They've got rid of all the old stocks they had in Ukraine, in Israel and all to, you
24:24know, crush the Palestinians and all that.
24:26So they need to find new markets.
24:28So I think this is something that could be an initiative.
24:32Disarmament was again something the West manufactured, US and USSR, and it collapsed
24:38with them.
24:39Why not the G20 take a disarmament initiative that neither India or Pakistan, if you say
24:45we will buy arms from the US, then I'm sure they will find other markets for it.
24:50But we will keep this part of the world freer of increasing tension, although the tensions
24:56will not altogether disappear.
24:59Right, right.
25:00Thank you so much, Shastriji, for all your insights on the latest, what is happening
25:05in the Indian subcontinent.
25:07And we'll connect with you again on a different issue, of course.
25:12Thank you so much for your time.
25:14Thank you, Nagin.
25:15Been good talking to Dehri Hand.
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