Celtics Rivals: Why Cavs Will Be Better in 2025 | Garden Report - video Dailymotion

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Bobby Manning welcomes Justin Rowan to the Garden Report from the Chase Down Podcast to discuss the Cavaliers running it back, their second round series with the Celtics and what Boston-Cleveland will look like in 2025. Can the Cavaliers compete?   CLNS Media is Powered by:   Prize Picks - https://prizepicks.onelink.me/LME0/CLNS Download the app today and use Code CLNS when you sign up & Get $50 instantly when you play $5!   Gametime - https://gametime.co Take the guesswork out of buying MLB tickets with Gametime. Download the Gametime app, create an account, and use code CLNS for $20 off your first purchase. Download Gametime today. Last minute tickets. Lowest Price. Guaranteed. Terms apply.  Elevate your style game on and off the course with the PXG Spring Summer 2024 collection. Head over to https://PXG.com/GARDENREPORT and save 10% on all apparel.  Nutrafol Men! Take the first step to visibly thicker, healthier hair. For a limited time, Nutrafol is offering our listeners ten dollars off your first month’s subscription and free shipping when you go to https://Nutrafol.com/MEN and enter the promo code GARDEN!   #celtics #NBA #BostonCeltics The CLNS Media Network is the leading provider for video/audio content. CLNS is a fully credentialed member of the media with access to all NFL/NBA/NHL/MLB teams & venues. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------  CLNS' rebuilt their YouTube community in less than 12 months, during a pandemic that attacked sports. Wondering how? Find out here (and support our channel) - https://www.tubebuddy.com/clnsmedia  Visit the Official Home of CLNS Sports Coverage -  https://clnsmedia.com  Twitter - https://twitter.com/CLNSMedia Celtics - https://twitter.com/celticsclns Patriots - https://twitter.com/patriotsclns Bruins - https://twitter.com/bruinsclns Red Sox - https://twitter.com/redsoxclns Non-Sports - https://twitter.com/northstation Facebook - http://facebook.com/clnsmedia INSTA - http://Instagram.com/clnsmedia INSTA Celtics - http://Instagram.com/celticsclns INSTA History - http://Instagram.com/nbahistoryclns

Transcript

00:00Hey, Bobby Manning here. Welcome to a Saturday edition of the Garden Report, just 10 days

00:09from Celtics Media Day. We're getting into some training camp questions in the lead up

00:14to that, as well as some previews of the Celtics rivals coming into this year. A lot of East

00:20teams on deck. We're going to start with a team I just can't give up on, the Cleveland

00:25Cavaliers. And of course, when we talk Cavs, we talk to Justin Rowan from the Chase Down

00:30podcast. I hopped on Chase Down a week or two ago, and now here's Justin back on the

00:35Garden Report. Welcome in, Justin.

00:38Thanks for having me back. Yeah, we're doing, you know, the old podcast exchange. It's good

00:42to be back on the Garden Report and good to be talking about these teams, man. I think

00:46there's a lot of interesting stuff here.

00:49So what's your confidence level going into this year in Cleveland? How does that compare

00:55to what your confidence level was going into last year? Running back most of the same team.

01:01First round pick in Jalen Tyson, who I'm very excited about. Tristan Thompson's back, as

01:05well as the core four. Pretty much running it back here in full. Ty Jerome, who didn't

01:10get to play last year after coming in. Hopefully going to be healthy for this year. Dean Wade

01:15back. He wasn't healthy for that Celtics Cavs series for the most part. So that's a

01:20big thing this year. Health, right? You kind of predicted the disaster that last season

01:24was going to be health wise. And now you're hoping that this season won't be that either.

01:30Yeah, I'm pretty confident coming into this year. And I think part of it was it's hard

01:35for a season to go worse than it did last year. And the fact that everything did go

01:40wrong for the Cavs last year and they still managed to kind of achieve their macro goals

01:46encouraging because what they said immediate day was they would like to go into the year

01:50and win a first round series.

01:52They wanted to be competitive against the top teams in the league. They did that. And

01:57I thought, you know, considering who was available in the state they were in, you know, Donovan

02:01Mitchell tried to give it a go against Orlando, was able to play through that series, played

02:07mostly through Boston. But then he just finally kind of gave out on him. And then Jared Allen

02:11with the broken rib, the fact that they were able to push Boston and at least give them

02:17a couple tough games given that state that they were in, I think it's encouraging because,

02:23you know, obviously I think Boston's in a tier of their own when it comes to this year.

02:29You know, as the defending champs, I think they should be the favorites to repeat as

02:32champion. But in terms of, you know, the Cavs ability to play them tough and give them a

02:37competitive series, you have to feel a little bit better than you did going into last year.

02:42Yeah. And I'm glad they're running it back as we talked about on your show. I think you

02:47deserve that as a team when you go through the injuries that they did and just want to

02:51see where it's at. I'll mention the coaching change, too, because I do want to get into

02:54that J.B. Bicker staff out who helped raise them up from the rebuilding stage to a playoff

03:00team back to back years. One of the best defensive coaches in the league gave them an identity

03:06in many ways over his handful of years there and now trying to shift more toward the offensive

03:13route under Kenny Atkinson. And he was so great in Brooklyn, obviously a part of those

03:17Warriors teams, the twenty twenty two championship team out there. I think it's a good choice

03:22as far as replacements go. I don't always love as I didn't love when the Celtics moved

03:26on from Brad. And, you know, there was some difficulty, I'm sure, going from EMA to Joe,

03:32different circumstance. But I don't always love blaming the coach, but sometimes I get it.

03:38So where do you fall in terms of what Atkinson is going to bring and moving on from J.B.?

03:44Yeah, I think when you listen to a lot of the reporting kind of after the fact, there

03:49seemed to be a lot of indicators that the locker room was lost. And I think when, you know,

03:54those voices reach an expiry date, you either have to turn over the roster, you have to turn

03:57over the coach. And when, you know, you have a young group that does have room to grow

04:02internally, I don't think you're going to be moving on from them in favor. J.B. Bickerstaff,

04:07I think he was a terrific hire for Detroit and is going to do a lot of good things there.

04:12But, you know, I didn't want to bring in if they were to move on from J.B. I didn't want

04:17to bring in a coach that had no experience when you are trying to manage for all star

04:23level talents and get them all implemented into a system, make sure that, you know,

04:28everyone's happy, everyone's getting enough touches and things like that. That's a tough

04:32situation to walk in on its own, let alone one with expectations. The Cavs want to take another

04:37step forward. They want to make an Eastern Conference Finals. So bringing in a coach that

04:41has no experience, even if they are, you know, a hot name on the coaching market like Adrian

04:47Griffin, you saw how that can go is a new coach goes into that kind of a situation. So I think

04:54from Kenny's standpoint, the fact that he did have that Brooklyn experience as head coach,

04:58he got to learn from that experience, figure out what worked and didn't work. He spoke to that in

05:03his press conference of just kind of having more of an understanding of the collaborative nature

05:08of coaching in the NBA as a result of being in Brooklyn and then, you know, being the associate

05:12head coach under Steve Kerr, being that associate head coach for a team that won a championship and

05:17working with, you know, a locker room with a lot of personalities with Draymond Green, Steph, Clay,

05:23all of that, everything that they had to go through. So I think that kind of perspective

05:28and the experience that he gained from that is going to give him a leg up. We don't know how

05:32it's going to translate. You don't know, like, you don't want to just assume everything that

05:36worked under the old coach is going to work and the new coach is just going to be strictly additive.

05:40But I do think in terms of resume, he was probably the best candidate available.

05:47Yeah. And stylistically, I do think there's some comparisons going in Boston's case from

05:51Yimei to Joe, more of a defensive emphasis to more of an offensive emphasis, as well as going from

05:58JB, who was very heavily defense to Kenny, who I think is probably going to have this team

06:02shooting more threes, probably going to change things up a little bit stylistically in terms

06:06of how they operate there. I'm interested to see how the ball handling allotment goes there.

06:11From what you can gauge right now, how do you think this team will look different stylistically

06:15this year? I think there's just going to be a little bit less burden on Darius Garland and

06:20Donovan Mitchell to initiate offensively. I do think they want to get Evan Mobley involved as

06:25that playmaker, utilize him at the nail and, you know, even have them bring up the ball in

06:30transition. We saw more and more of that towards the end of last year, and I think he's going to

06:34continue to be empowered in that way. And really, like when you talk about building an offense

06:39around a two guard kind of set, that's not going to work. That's never worked historically unless

06:47there is a front court initiator on the offensive end. So often people talk about the defensive end

06:52when the defense hasn't been an issue for Cleveland in the regular season and playoffs.

06:57You know, that defense has held up really well. They perform better defensively, even with just

07:03one big in the two guards than Dallas did, right? They outscored Boston with Garland,

07:09Mitchell and Mobley on the court for that playoff series. But I do think offensively has been the

07:15issue. That's been where they've had the issues, having that translate from the regular season to

07:20the playoffs. And unless you can have that front court initiator that can help beat a defense when

07:25it traps guards and do the kinds of things that you can do to a smaller backcourt, you are not

07:30going to be able to have that consistent offensive threat. So I do think, you know,

07:35using more guys, more off ball sets, getting easier looks and just, you know, less burden

07:42on Mitchell and Garland as a ball handler, maybe a few more spot up opportunities for them.

07:46I think the hope is that that's going to help that offense translate from the regular season

07:50to the playoffs. I want to take a quick break before we get into some of the players over there

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09:07core four are you focused on going into this year, Justin, I did my all time Celtics killers list

09:14this week. With top 100 some other offseason stuff. I was shocked to see Donovan Mitchell,

09:21third all time and points per game against the Celtics with 29 a game. I think he had 31 in that

09:27series last year before he went down. Probably the most dangerous player they saw in their path.

09:31There aren't a lot of questions about him. I would think Garland will have to be desired there. I

09:37know he went through some injuries last year and dropped down. You know, even on my list there,

09:41the top 100 list significantly based on how he played last year. Mobley is a guy I want to see

09:46more from. And Alan obviously had the rib injury and took some steps last year before that. Who do

09:53you think is most important in terms of growth in terms of their trajectory in this team being a

09:57contender next year? Yeah, like you said, I think Donovan Mitchell kind of is who he is. And it's

10:02just going to be a matter of getting him more support, right? Like, I think, you know, he's

10:06had good playoff series, he's had bad playoff series. When you're talking about a star that's

10:11not a kind of like that LeBron's here, that's the way it's going to be. And if you're building

10:15around a player like that, you need to have other guys that are capable of stepping up and being the

10:20best player in a playoff series, right? If if Mitchell is kind of that number two guy in a

10:25series where he just doesn't have the outside shot, you know, Boston showed that even with a

10:30player of Jason Tatum's caliber, right? Like, sometimes he's just not going to have it for a

10:34series. And you need to have guys like Jalen Brown, Derek White step up in the way that they did.

10:40So I think the obvious answer is Evan Mobley. Like I said, I think his growth as a playmaker

10:45and as an offensive hub is going to be incredibly important for them, whether it's at the power

10:50forward position or whether it's at the center position. I think that kind of growth as a

10:56playmaker using him as like a much taller BAM at a bio is probably the hope where this goes

11:02offensively. But that's going to take some time, right? Like he has played about half of his minutes

11:07over the last two years at center. He's played half of his minutes at power forward. I don't

11:11think it's as simple as, oh, yeah, you know, just kind of put them at the five and everything

11:15clicks. The line of data has, you know, that hasn't been the case. But I do think, you know,

11:22Evan Mobley is the most important. Then there is getting back to where he was last year.

11:26I know, you know, as you said, with your own personal rankings and whatnot and standing

11:31around a league that's dropped down, I think that was strictly to do with health, whether it was,

11:35you know, the injury to a shooting hand to start last year in the hamstring. He finally kind of

11:41got right for about a month and was looking like, you know, the normal twenty two and eight

11:46efficient version of Darius Garland that we saw. And then he broke his jaw and just wasn't the same.

11:51In Boston.

11:52Yes. Yes. It was Christopher's hip. And then, you know, coming back from that, you know,

12:00I've seen, you know, medical reports and stuff like that that said, you know, after you fracture

12:04your jaw, it's going to take, you know, like six months before you start to get that strength back,

12:08even your ability to grip at the same level. You know, the 15 pounds of muscle that he lost during

12:15that time, not being able to eat with the mouth wired shut. Like, I think all of that had a big

12:19impact. And then you put on top of that a pretty significant and meaningful death in his family

12:24as well. It was just a year from hell from him. But I do think it's important to remember

12:30that twenty two, twenty three, that first year with Donovan was his best year individually.

12:34That was Donovan's best year individually. When you look at the lineup data with the two guards,

12:40they are significantly better on both ends of the floor, offensively and defensively,

12:45when both guards are out there. As I said before, the defense has held up very well. It's still

12:52been at an elite level with both guards on the court. It's just about getting it to work

12:56offensively. And to me, that should not be the question. Like, I don't think that,

13:01you know, Garland and Mitchell getting it to work offensively in the playoffs,

13:05that shouldn't be where the concern is. And because of that, I just feel like there's meat

13:09left on the bone. And having someone like Kenny Atkinson has experience dealing with multiple ball

13:14handlers and building a structured offense around that is going to put them in a situation to

13:18succeed. Yeah, and I don't I agree with that. And the difficulty there is that it does work

13:25defensively, as we've seen. But I think a big reason for that, obviously, is that they have

13:29the two bigs out there, the two dynamic guys, defensively in the frontcourt. Do those guys

13:36work together offensively, though? Is that going to be something that, you know, as time goes on

13:41here, sustainable for both of those guys? Because obviously, some recording, maybe move on from

13:45Allen this offseason, they don't do that. Get an extension done, get an extension done with Mobley.

13:51So they're tied together for now, and certainly are two guys who are both two of the better bigs

13:56defensively in the league. And I like Allen's offensive game. It's gotten a pretty good place.

14:01I like some of the creation ability you talked about there. He had a great game in Boston

14:05in that miniseries, that pass in the ball that really surprised me. So I love where he's at,

14:09and he would have been a difference maker in that series. But him being out as the series progressed,

14:15allowed Mobley to get going against, you know, some of the more perimeter based defense at the

14:20Celtics were thrown out there to try to limit the Cavs threes. And I loved at the five what he was

14:24able to show in terms of being aggressive out there. Shot hasn't reached where it needs to be.

14:29And I've said this to you over and over again, just I just I he's still so young. There's still

14:35so much room for growth here. And now he has a new coach, which I think could be helpful.

14:39But in that combination, are you ever going to see the best version of Mobley offensively?

14:44Because I think he just has to get so much better on that end of the floor for him to become the

14:47player you want to build around and pay the kind of money that they've committed to.

14:51Yeah, I think, you know, that's one of the biggest questions. And I like I said before,

14:55I don't think it's as easy as just moving Mowgli to the five. And that solves everything

14:59offensively. Like it is important to remember, like he did have those strong games offensively,

15:05the last two games of that series. But Jared Allen was out the whole thing. He was also out,

15:10you know, games five through seven against Orlando. And Mobley failed to score in double

15:14digits in all of those games, right? Like, I don't think it's that simple. Honestly, I

15:19Mobley took off in that Boston series with Donovan Mitchell out, you know, Garland in

15:23a limited state, he was basically kind of relegated to a shooting guard throughout the

15:28playoffs where he just wasn't getting as many touches as he's typically accustomed to. And

15:32the thing we've seen, when we talk about, you know, the fit of the big man Perry, those Mitchell

15:38and Mobley minutes for the last two years, they have a negative two net rating in those minutes,

15:43and only a one 15 offensive rating. Whereas Garland and Mobley, when it's just the two of

15:47them have a plus 12 net rating, like those pairings work so much better. Mitchell and Allen work

15:54really well, because Alan's a better screen setter. And, you know, kind of more in the mold

15:58of like a Rudy Gobert that can catch and actually do things with the ball. So that's a good fit with

16:02Mitchell. We got to find a way to get, you know, Mitchell and Mobley those times when they are out

16:06there together, find ways to build that chemistry is similar to what he has with he and Garland.

16:12I'm not blaming it on, you know, Donovan Mitchell,

16:14Mobley is just a different archetype of big man. So I do think, you know, how Mobley grows

16:19offensively is important, but it's not, it's not strictly tied to what position he's playing.

16:26I do think that, you know, the development is needed, regardless of where he plays,

16:31how they fit between he and Jared Allen. I think that's a bigger question. I'm less

16:37certain of it in comparison to Garland and Mitchell. They have worked well in the past.

16:42Like when you look at kind of the big man lineup data, they have a plus six net rating over the

16:49last two years when both big men are on the court, when it's just Mobley, it's plus three,

16:53when it's just Alan, it's plus four. So, you know, they are better together. But how that

16:58translates to the playoffs is obviously the biggest question. And I think that pairing

17:03isn't going to work offensively unless Mobley improves as a playmaker and obviously improves

17:08as a shooter. But I do think the playmaking is more important because we have seen,

17:12you know, power forwards that can't really shoot play next to non-traditional big men,

17:17or I should say traditional big men and have it work offensively. If that four can play me,

17:23Mobley made more threes and shot more threes than Zion has in his career last year.

17:28But Zion gets to play, you know, in the past, like Jonas Valentinus, who takes one three,

17:32every three games or whatever, right? Like it, that's still worked offensively because

17:36Zion was a play-making threat and he's able to get to the rim. I think the same thing can happen

17:41for Mobley, but obviously like if that growth doesn't occur, then you have to look at other

17:46options. You have to probably look at a power for that can stretch the floor and provide some

17:50rim protection to pair next to Mobley. If that Jared Allen pairing doesn't work. But I do think,

17:56you know, as he said, the playmaking has been there from Alan. He took a step forward there

18:00last year. They do have strong play-making throughout the entire lineup. So I think

18:04there's a hope that Kenny Atkinson can make it work with limited spacing. You got to remember

18:09you used a lot of those kinds of lineups in golden state as well, whether it's, you know,

18:13non-shooters and Andre Aguedala, Draymond Green, Kavon Looney, like all these guys,

18:17like they were able to still make it work offensively because of that structure.

18:22Yeah. And they might be able to go to some non-traditional creation methods. Like you've

18:26talked to free up Mitchell mothball a little bit more Garland, those guys. And these are some

18:31bigs who can create a little bit, especially Alan. So it'd be interesting to see at those

18:35positions, but the real question is the wing, which we've talked about for years now, put a

18:41lot of money into addressing it last year to mix results. Jerome went down, obviously Struess was

18:47fine. I feel like he was good in that. He just gave steady production at that spot, which is

18:52more than what they had previously. Uh, there didn't go great for him in that Celtic series.

18:57Uh, then you go down the line, Jalen Tyson, love that draft pick. As we talked about a lot on your

19:02show, carousel vert. So a guy who can play a little bit there. So they have a number of options,

19:06even the Yang who obviously the defense didn't work out as you wanted it to Wade gives you a

19:11good defensive option out there. So there's, there's a ton of options, even Amani Bates

19:15down the line. Can he get into that mix? Um, so there's a million different options here. Isaac

19:20Okoro is still in free agency. I'm interested to see how that's going to go. A lot of the reporting

19:25weeks ago was that maybe he's out the door in a trade, but there still hasn't been anything new

19:28there. Uh, so I don't know what's going to happen here for them at this wing spot. Cause they have

19:32so many different options. You could even bring back Okoro is still pretty far South of that

19:36second apron. Uh, if you wanted to, but then, you know, after four years, did you see what you

19:41needed to there in terms of the shot? And that's not going to work. It's tough when you have this

19:46many options and none of them are ideal and it's such an important position. This might be their

19:51biggest question going forward. So what do you see happening with Okoro? What do you see happening

19:55with that wing spot this year? Yeah. At this point, I'd be very surprised if there was a trade,

20:00uh, involving Okoro, I think that would have happened earlier in the off season. Could be

20:04wrong. You know, you never know what opportunities are going to open up. If, you know, Brooklyn

20:09becomes more amenable to like a cam Johnson trade, that might be something that they go with.

20:13But I definitely expect Max Drews to again, start at the three. Um, you know, he was that guy last

20:19year, uh, from an impact standpoint, they were so much better with him on the court. And you know,

20:23it was funny. We joked with stirs at media day where we were talking about, you know,

20:27that your last year in Miami, you had so many games because of injuries without playing with

20:31a point guard. Uh, and that shouldn't be the case in Cleveland because you know,

20:35the guy there is Garland and we got Ty Jerome, we have Ricky Rubio and by game two, all three,

20:40all three strings of point guards were out. Uh, and, and I do think, you know,

20:46um, he showed a lot from a playmaking standpoint last year, uh, he had to kind of sub in and play

20:51some point guard. He was playing some power forward as he did with Miami. Uh, but like the

20:55numbers were staggering. When you look at how much better he was with DG versus one Garland was out,

21:01like he shot 45% from the field and 39% from three in the games that Garland played,

21:07he shot 37% from the field and 29% from three in the games that Garland didn't play like that.

21:12It just goes to show you like kind of the level of playmaking that was absent and how much more

21:17work he had to do in those games. Um, but again, it would be great to add a big wing. I would love

21:25to add a, you know, a four, three to this lineup, or even a four or five would be really nice to

21:29have, you know, someone in the mold of like a Larry Nance jr. Uh, I would love to bring him back.

21:34Um, you know, having someone that can kind of cycle those two positions other

21:38than Dean Wade would be great. So I was going to throw a name at you.

21:41Okay. They have a couple of roster spots open a lot of wings here. So I don't know if he fits

21:47in or gets minutes, but he may even be a training camp deal guy at this point, given what we've seen

21:51with line Walker and some others, there's O'Shea Brissett makes sense here. I, I, you know,

21:57I'd be into it. I don't think that they're going to do another minimum assigning. Like,

22:00I think if there is a roster shakeup at this point, it would be a trade. Um, you know,

22:06I think the most likely guy would be Karis Levert. If you kind of read the tea leaves,

22:09uh, Jalen Tyson was kind of brought in to be that Karis Levert, uh, successor. So,

22:14um, if they're able to move Levert and address, you know, the four or five or the four, three,

22:19I think they would go ahead and do so, uh, that isn't reporting. That's just kind of

22:24guesses based on, on the reporting that's out there. Um,

22:27and he was on the Celtics killers list as well, by the way. Yeah. Yeah. He's been good for you

22:32against you guys for sure. Um, but you know, I do think, you know, the, they'll look at

22:38opportunities throughout the season, but the big wing thing for me is so much more tied to play

22:45making. Like, I think they need front court playing. That's why I'm excited about Tyson.

22:49I think you can bring a little bit of that. Right. Right. And he's someone that played a

22:53lot of points in college, or at least that last year he certainly did. Um, that's what they need,

22:58man. Like too often, when you look at the calves of the last couple of years, it's been so rigid

23:03of, in terms of these guys are playing initiators. These guys are play finishers. That's not how you

23:09win. I think teams around the league should look at Boston and how they had guys that could create

23:14an initiate offense at every single position that makes it so much harder for defenses.

23:19When you've got to bring two to the ball, that ball can rotate. And then someone else is able

23:23to initiate from the weak side or whatever the case may be. Calves need guys that, that do more.

23:28And I think when you look at the starting lineup, they obviously had that with Garland and Mitchell.

23:32I think Mobley and Allen have shown enough as a playmaker Struce at his best playmaking season.

23:36I think that works, but having those guys that can step in, uh, off the bench and keep that going,

23:42that's going to be so crucial. So I do think that's, you know, one of those spots where Jalen

23:46Tyson is intriguing, obviously cares can do that at times, but, uh, whether or not they have enough

23:52playmaking to, to kind of combat the type of defenses they're going to see in the playoffs

23:57that remains to be seen. Well, again, what your prediction is for them this season,

24:02we'll get on some Celtics talk. Want to give a shout out to prize picks. It's the perfect time

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25:20prize picks, run your game. And it's still summer in my heart, Justin, there's still a lot going on

25:26in terms of concerts, events, uh, baseball games. I want to get to one more baseball game before the

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26:04off your first purchase at game time. Terms apply again, create an account and redeem code CLNS for

26:10$20 off your first ticket purchase over there. What time is it? Game time. Uh, let's move on

26:17to the Celtics. But first in your mind, Justin, where is this Cavs team going to finish this year?

26:22If all goes right. I think from a standing standpoint, I kind of expect them to be in the

26:27two, three mix. Um, the other team I have very is kind of the Knicks. And you know, if the Knicks

26:32stay healthy, I'd probably give them a nod to, to be the two seeded in the Eastern conference.

26:38Um, but obviously, you know, that's a big question. Um, Mitchell Robinson typically does

26:42miss a lot of time and they don't really have a backup five. I don't think precious that you

26:46would necessarily works as the full-time five and Julius Randall, um, tips has been very hesitant

26:52to play them at the five. And I think a lot of that is tied to, you know, his lack of ability

26:56to defend the rim and do those responsibilities defensively. Uh, OG typically misses, you know,

27:0240 games a year. And I just think that the Cavs have a little more depth than them.

27:06Uh, at least when it comes to, you know, being able to insulate themselves defensively,

27:11um, you know, even with mobiley missing as much time as he did last year,

27:14they were able to still have a very good defense. So, um, you know, I, I think that they're going

27:20to be in that two, three mix and it's likely going to come down to health, uh, which one of

27:24those seats that they get and, you know, that gives them a good chance. Um, I, I think to

27:30compete, uh, to, to get to an Eastern conference finals, I don't think anybody's beating Boston.

27:34I think if someone were to upset Boston in the playoffs, it would be because they kind of goaded

27:39Boston into beating themselves. I think even when you look at the last couple of years, the times

27:43that Boston has lost, they lost to themselves. I think, you know, when they lost to the warriors,

27:48they lost to themselves when they lost to Miami, they lost to themselves. That's, that would

27:53probably be the recipe, you know, a cold shooting series and Boston just kind of killing themselves

27:58with their own mistakes. I think the calves could probably like extend the series against Boston.

28:03You know, they came very close to, to forcing a game six, um, with that game four that came down

28:08to the wire, even without Mitchell and Allen. Uh, but I still think Boston is, as I said,

28:13in a tier of their own and the favor to, to repeat this season. Yeah. What are you interested

28:18in seeing with them? Obviously Porzingis is going to miss significant time to start the year. So

28:23you're going to see some interesting center play, uh, from some depth guys there, which is

28:28top on my mind that it is that hangover thing. Is it going to be a burst after a championship

28:34into next year? Like it was an Oh nine for this team, or is it going to be,

28:38Oh, we're stepping back in a lot of guys playing the Olympics retire, blah, blah, blah.

28:42That's I think the two biggest things to watch with them along with maybe some of the depth guys,

28:48can they repeat what they did last year? Uh, some guys who are entering their thirties or

28:53going deep into their thirties, uh, in a couple of players cases. So there's not a lot of questions

28:57here because if they do what they did last year, like you said, they're in a league of their own.

29:02They've mastered both ends of the floor in terms of the way they want to play. Everybody's back

29:07effectively here other than preset. Uh, so there aren't a lot of questions that makes it tough to

29:13nitpick this team and try to find some things to talk about, but there's a few things. What are

29:17you most interested in with them? Yeah. I mean, when you look at last year, they largely won

29:21without Porzingis, at least when it came to the playoffs and they were great in the regular season.

29:26Yeah. So like, you know, I think that's obviously a big question, but I think that they've shown

29:31enough resiliency to show that they can navigate it. Uh, we'll need to see, you know, how much

29:36older does Al Horford look? I think that's going to be a big factor, but you know, they've got some

29:41nice depth there. I think that they're going to be able to navigate that well. To me, Boston is like

29:47dueling cliches, right? Is it going to be, you know, championship hangover and, you know,

29:52the disease of more, uh, with, uh, you know, a bunch of guys that sacrifice to

29:57largely when their first championship or second in the case of drew holiday,

30:01uh, are they still going to make the same sacrifices for one another and play as a team

30:05or is, you know, competing interests and, you know, the, the whole individuality,

30:10is that going to be an issue or are they going to take an off season where, you know,

30:16probably the first champion that I can remember basically in my entire time watching the NBA,

30:21where they won a championship and its best player didn't improve kind of his standing in the league.

30:26Like the fact that Jason Tam, like normally when someone wins a championship, everyone is like,

30:31okay, you know, the best player on the team is now either the best player in the league,

30:34or he's top three or like walk for a top five. That's not the case for Jason Tatum.

30:40Did he prove himself to you?

30:43Ah, you know, I don't think he improved his standing for me. And maybe that's because I

30:47was already pretty high on Jason Tatum. Like I knew he could be the best player on a championship

30:51team already. Um, you know, I, I think this was the right environment for him, but you know,

30:56that when you look at kind of the, you know, how the Olympics went for him and the off season,

31:01a slander, I think there's a lot of fuel there for, for Boston to feel like, you know,

31:05uh, we still have something to prove. We can still go out and let's punch the league in the

31:09mouth and win another championship. Like, I think that there's a lot of that there,

31:13but you know, there is the, as I said before, the other side of that coin, which is all right.

31:17Well, like, is everyone going to sacrifice at the same level? You know, Jalen Brown didn't

31:22like congratulate his teammates on winning an Olympic medal. Is there going to be bad blood

31:27there? I don't think that's going to be the case. I would expect them to, you know, still kind of

31:31have a chip on their shoulder and use this all this fuel. Um, but that's going to be interesting

31:37to me. And, you know, I think the part that doesn't get talked about enough is, you know,

31:41championship hangovers one thing, but when you stack an Olympics on top of that,

31:46it might just be that physically taxing where they run out of gas. Like, I think that that

31:50happened to the Denver nuggets last year, uh, with, you know, no kitchen, those guys playing

31:55in the world cup and, and then the impact that that had, like, I think that team kind of was

32:00just low on fuel and I'll see if that's the case for Boston, but the convenient thing for them is

32:06they have so much depth that I don't think that they have to be overly taxed in the regular season.

32:10And I guess I'm interested in seeing how Joe Missoula approaches the regular season.

32:15Yeah. And we talked about it the other day, Jalen, Jason, their approach is going to set the

32:18tone here because the role guys mostly do what they need to. You pretty confident in those guys

32:23being able to do their jobs at the very least. These guys set the tone with their defensive

32:27intensity, their passing reached another level. They cut all those turnovers out from the run

32:32two years ago, uh, which was so important for both of them. That's a focus thing. That's a

32:36consistency thing for both of those guys, shot selection. You always talk about that with them

32:41and those all reach heights. So these guys improve. They obviously have the best cast you

32:45could imagine around them, but especially it's this year, right? But it's also the year after

32:50this where maybe you start moving some pieces, things get expensive. What I keep saying over

32:55and over again is right. You put them in the perfect environment to succeed last year. That

33:01environment's pretty much carrying over here. Now, what steps are those guys going to show to prove

33:07that they can carry this into the future? Cause they're, you know, not many teams can have two

33:11super max guys. Now you have two super max guys and they need to be able to perform on that level.

33:16Tatum's case, you know, what's, what's the focus on winning an MVP, becoming an MVP level kind of

33:21guy. I think the biggest bridge he has to get there is showing that he can be a guy who raises

33:27up his teammates, level LL LeBron, and some of these great playmaking wings who we've seen at

33:31that position for Jalen to be in that efficient pastor and that dominant defender that we saw

33:36during the run there. And if those guys can continue to do that in the future, that's what

33:40it's going to take to be able to sustain this. Cause in two years, Porzingis is probably going

33:43to be gone. I mean, he might just be gone with injuries at this point anyway, given how his

33:47career has gone. Drew's 35 this year, Al's 38 this year. These have been critical guys for them

33:53on this run, even White's 30. So this is going to become less and less each year about that

33:58supporting cast and more about, you know, Brown and Tatum as a duo, as playmakers, all this stuff

34:04able to carry this team into the future. Cause they're going to have to, as they go into a little

34:08bit of a transition, not this year, but probably more next year. Yeah. And you know, this ties

34:13into the calves approach, you know, as much as people talk about, you know, moving on from Jared

34:18Allen or whatever the case may be, you got to make sure that you're maintaining that all-star

34:23level talent. And you know, if a move comes available where you're able to make a lateral

34:27move that, but helps from a fit standpoint, you do it, but currently you maintain that talent.

34:33You have hang around. Like, I think that that is going to be the approach when you have this league

34:38with more parody. Yeah. It just comes to, you know, are you in position to capitalize if things

34:44break your way, right? Like the 2019 Raptors should have never won a championship, but with

34:50the breaks that they caught along the way, like that's, they, they put themselves in position to

34:54capitalize on that. And we have seen that in the past. So from most champions catch breaks and the

34:59Celtics caught a lot, but that's why I didn't get the all easiest run, everything with them.

35:04Yeah. I would still say the 2015 warriors got that easiest run. I think that, you know,

35:12starting point guard for every single team along the way goes down. And then obviously,

35:16you know, Kevin Love in the finals, I'm going to go with that as the easiest run.

35:20Yeah. Pretty healthy. Yeah. You know, you got to, but you know, the Mavs caught breaks in my

35:25opinion to get there. Like, I don't think that that team should have made the finals in a normal

35:30scenario, but from Cleveland standpoint, I think that's the key. Just be patient, find your

35:37opportunities to make moves, to make yourselves better. I just never believe in losing talent and

35:43like getting worse as a team to fit an archetype. And I think that that is kind of the biggest thing.

35:49Like when people talk about like moving Garland for like a Devon Vassell, like that's still,

35:54you know, a six, five guard that, that doesn't provide playmaking. I do like his game.

36:01I, I like Devon Vassell too, but you're still going to be an undersized team at that point,

36:05because what do the calves have? Like an unlimited supply of six, five players. And that's what

36:10Devon Vassell is with zero playmaking juice. And he's an average three point shooter and,

36:15you know, an okay defender, like that's not going to move the needle. And that would put

36:20too much of a burden on Donovan Mitchell to be a playmaker who, you know, we we've never seen

36:26a heliocentric offense, you know, really win a championship. Like even with LeBron, there's at

36:31least Kyrie or Wade, or someone said to kind of take that burden off. Like there's another

36:35playmaker in the mix. Luca, they added a playmaker to him and Kyrie, right? Like

36:41Donovan is not Lucas caliber. He's not a, you know, on Russell Westbrook's caliber as a playmaker.

36:47When you look back to that MVP season and OKC. So I think it is very important to keep playmaking

36:53all around him and make his life easier. Because, you know, that 11 and three stretch that they had

36:58with just Mitchell and Allen, they didn't play a ton of games on that stretch. They played almost

37:03no teams with the winning record, but that took such a physical toll on Mitchell and all of those

37:08guys like Mitchell's obviously had the knee injury that didn't go away for the rest of the season.

37:13Struess had a knee issue. Levert had a knee issue. Wade got worn down to the point that his

37:18season was effectively over like that, but killed the team. You need to maintain that depth and you

37:23need to maintain that playmaking. Yeah, Celtics pretty healthy on their run other than the

37:27poisonous injury there. And of course he wasn't available for that Cavs Celtics series either

37:32there. So that bodes well to what they're able to do without him this year. I want to get into

37:36one more topic with you. A pretty timely news story that came out yesterday, but first want to

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39:34out yesterday, Justin. Want to get your thoughts on it? New York Post reporting. Obviously the Celtics

39:39went up for sale pretty quickly after the finals win there. Weird story, shocking story. Probably

39:44thought that they were going to have to sell this team eventually, but not this soon.

39:48And obviously there was some reporting earlier this summer that WIC, you know, the front-facing

39:53owner of the group here, only owned about 2-3% of the Celtics. It was his father who, you know,

39:59was the big money behind the team here. And Irv Grosbeck effectively said that's it in terms of

40:04the spending here, in terms of all these extensions and luxury tax hits that they're about to take on.

40:09And right from the start, I was like, this is a big deal. Like this ownership group spent a lot

40:15of money to get this championship here, spent a lot of money to keep all these players on board

40:20as they're going to have this season and beyond. So now you don't know who's going to own this team

40:25into the future. There's been a lot of wacky rumors. None of them seem to be, you know,

40:28substantiated here. And in this reporting here, Celtics barely broke even last year and,

40:36you know, on the verge of losing $80 million in terms of the money they have on the books here,

40:41don't own their arena. So they're losing some money there. So they're in a weird money spot.

40:46And we always were like, all right, are they going to be able to spend to keep this team

40:49together here? And they did. But now you're asking, all right, can they actually pay the money it's

40:54going to take to keep this team together? And who's going to pick up this bill here? Because it's

40:58clearly not going to be the Grosbecks. Could this be an issue for them as they try to sustain this

41:05run here? Because we don't know who the owner is going to be. I think it's an issue for every team.

41:11Like, I think this is the new reality we're in. Like Steve Ballmer just let Paul George walk for

41:16nothing. Like, I think that that should be, you know, the five alarm fire to fans that lets you

41:22know that, you know, we're in a different era. You know, Bobby Marks has talked about how teams are

41:27going to have to take a two and five approach where if you're in the second apron, you're in

41:32for two years, you're out for the other three years of a five-year span. Otherwise you start

41:37getting into those, you know, ridiculous penalties that you're going to hit. And the Celtics are there

41:43next year after this. It's going to be like 500 million combined between tax and salaries.

41:49Right. And I think that's part of why the Cavs have been strategic. And that's probably been

41:52the biggest holdup when it comes to, you know, like an Isaac Okoro extension. If he does take

41:57the qualifying offer, I think they would be in the luxury tax, but not the first apron.

42:02I think they want to avoid starting that repeater clock until they have to. I think after this

42:07coming season, that's when the Cavs are going to, you know, jump up whether that's, you know,

42:11first or second apron. That's when, you know, the Mobley extension is going to kick in. That's when,

42:16you know, they're going to be a more expensive team. And I think they understand that,

42:20but they want to avoid starting that repeater clock as quick, you know, for as long as possible

42:26and then kind of sprint over. And whether that's, you know, at that point, you after this coming

42:31season, you're going to have two more years of Donna Mitchell's, you know, current extension.

42:36I think those are going to be the two years where they try to be in that second apron, right?

42:40Delay a little bit, make Boston, you know, be more expensive. You know, other teams are going

42:45to be in a similar kind of spot. And then you hope that those two years are your window. And then,

42:50you know, honestly, they're going to have a decision to make regardless at that point,

42:55because it's going to come down to, you know, do we want to extend Donna Mitchell for ages like

43:0031 through 35 as someone that has had, you know, his body break down a fair bit the last few years

43:06and he's a little undersized at the shooting guard position. So, you know, I think this is

43:10reality for all teams. They're going to have to figure out, all right, who are essential guys?

43:14And can we find value in the margins? And I think whether you're the Celtics, whether you're the

43:18Warriors, whether you're the Clippers, whether you're the calves, that's going to be forcing

43:24teams to make some really tough decisions, no matter who your ownership is or what position

43:28you're in. So I think your assessment earlier about, you know, for Zingas or some of these

43:32other guys not being on the Celtics in a year or two is probably accurate because teams are going

43:38to have to make those tough decisions. And it's going to come down to whether or not they find

43:42the value in the margins, whether they hit on their draft picks or find some undrafted guys or,

43:46you know, second draft opportunities, stealing guys from other organizations. That's going to

43:52be really, really important. But, you know, if you're Boston, you have to feel really good about

43:56winning back to back championships here and being contenders. So I think, you know, from a financial

44:02standpoint, it's certainly worth it. Yeah, they might have had the last super team effectively

44:07here, if that's what you want to call it, because they got in before these penalties went into

44:10effect. And now you have to figure out how to manage these guys. You mentioned George leaving.

44:14That's probably what it's going to be for them, in my mind, as I start to think about how this

44:17is going to come apart here. But there'll still be that $500 million bill with Porzingis last

44:22year on his deal there that they have to contend with their extended holiday. Is he still a guy

44:27who has value at that point that you can move off of and actually get some value back for?

44:32Or are you going to be forced to, here we are again, split up the J's to make the money work

44:38here? Those are going to be questions that they have to face in just a year from now,

44:43I think. So it's tough. And the Cavs did the same thing, right? They extended everybody,

44:47kept everybody. And now you have to figure out how to make that work once the penalties come.

44:52Yeah. I mean, the one benefit for them is, you know, when they extended these guys is incredibly

44:58important. Because, you know, Darius Garland, when you look, you know, I think if you look at

45:03the reported contract, it's like $36 million or something like that. People refer to that as a

45:07max, but that's nothing, right? That's almost like Drew Holiday money. That's OGN and OB money.

45:14Porzingis is $30 million, yeah. Even Holiday, I think his money, if he stays who he is,

45:19is going to age pretty well. Yeah. And Mobley signed his kind of fun max. So I think unless

45:25he wins defensive player of the year this year, it's not going to kick into that kind of

45:30excessive category. And then Jared Allen is on one of the best contracts in the NBA. And

45:34this extension, I think if he would have waited to hit free agency, I think he would have got a

45:39lot more because in two years when it jumps up to, you know, that 30 range or whatever,

45:46like that's what Hardenstein is currently getting. And the Cap's going to be higher at that time,

45:51right? So that's going to be, I think I saw reports of it being like 15, 16, 17% of the Cap.

45:57That's nothing, man. If you're getting borderline all-star production at a guy for 15 to 18% of the

46:05Cap, that's such a benefit. And if a trade opportunity doesn't come along to resolve

46:14fit issues or whatever, that's a guy you can still play 28 minutes at that salary and still feel

46:20pretty good about it. Like if you're closing games with Moby at the five, you can do that.

46:24But I think in the meantime, thoroughly exploring whether or not this current iteration of the

46:29Cavs can work better with a better scheme and with internal growth and development,

46:34they brought in a ton of player development coaches and guys that are very, very, you know,

46:39have strong reputations, whether it's Johnny Bryant, Jordan Ott, et cetera. Like I think

46:46thoroughly exploring that as an option was the correct way to go.

46:49We'll keep tabs on this story. Obviously it's going to be interesting to see who emerges

46:53as owners here, potential owners, Steve Pegg, Luke in the mix, but no one beyond that for now.

46:57The Globe saying that they're still trying to assess what the value of the team is going to

47:01be here at this point, but definitely go check out that New York Post report. Some interesting

47:04information out there on where the Celtics sale stands. As for the Celtics and Cavs,

47:09they're going to face off November 19th in an NBA cup game in Boston. And then quickly in

47:15Cleveland on December 1st, before two games later in the year, looking forward to it,

47:20looking forward to see what the Cavs do. I can't give up on this team. I'm a strong believer in

47:25them. And I do think they gave the Celtics a little bit of a run in that series while they

47:28were healthy. So we'll see what they're capable of this year. I always love talking about these

47:31two teams with Justin Rowan, check out the chase down podcast and check him out on Twitter at

47:36Cavs on it. Uh, thanks Justin. Thank you so much for having me.

Celtics Rivals: Why Cavs Will Be Better in 2025 | Garden Report

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