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00:00Welcome to Apropos. The 71-year-old French man on trial for sedating his wife over the
00:08course of a decade and recruiting dozens of strangers to rape her will not now appear
00:14in court to give testimony until at least next Monday. Dominique Pellicot was excused
00:19from the proceedings after the presiding judge told the court that the defendant's health
00:23had further deteriorated. 50 other men accused of taking part in the abuse are also on trial.
00:31With the latest on the case that has horrified France, here's Monty Francis.
00:37Looking weak and leaning on a cane, Dominique Pellicot appeared in a courtroom in Avignon
00:43Wednesday. The 71-year-old was due to testify in a case that has shocked France. But the
00:48judge postponed his testimony after the defendant's attorney explained that Pellicot was
00:53unable to endure a full day in court because of his poor health.
00:59Dominique Pellicot is indeed physically present today. Psychologically he is not in good shape.
01:05And physically he's still in a lot of pain and I feel he's very, very weak. And I feel
01:10he's in no way able to handle a full day of court, sitting on a chair, waiting for his
01:16turn to speak and to be really fit to answer all of the questions.
01:23Dominique Pellicot has admitted to charges that he recruited dozens of men to rape his
01:28heavily sedated wife over a decade. Prosecutors say he drugged Giselle Pellicot with sleeping
01:35pills and filmed the acts, involving 72 men, 50 of whom have been identified. The defendants
01:42range in age from 26 to 74.
01:46The presiding judge said the hearings would continue in spite of the defendant's absence.
01:52But Giselle Pellicot's attorney had argued the defendant must be present for the proceedings.
01:58The question that arises is how can this trial continue if Dominique Pellicot is not present?
02:03There can't be a trial if Pellicot's health and his ability to stand trial are not guaranteed.
02:09The judge ordered Dominique Pellicot to undergo a medical examination, saying he could not
02:15appear in court until Monday at the earliest, and would consider temporarily suspending
02:20the trial on Thursday. Pellicot and the other defendants face up to 20 years in prison if
02:26they're convicted.
02:27Well, for more on this story, we're joined now by Anne-Cécile Melfort. She's president
02:35of the Fondation des Femmes here in France. Good to have you with us on the programme
02:40this evening, Anne-Cécile. You have expressed regret at the absence of the main defendant
02:45in this case due to his illness. You say it's important to hear what the accused has to
02:50say in cases like this, not least for their victims, in this case his wife. Why is that
02:54so important?
02:55Well, it is important because, first of all, for the victim, Gisèle Pellicot, she's been
03:04raped. She's been under chemical submission. It's horrible what her husband did to her.
03:12So she needs to have this process. She needs to have this trial and she needs to hear her
03:17husband, first of all. But then she also wanted this trial to be public so that the society
03:24can learn something from it. So we also need Dominique Pellicot to be there and to be
03:31confronted to his actions because France is now watching this trial and we are trying
03:38to understand rape culture. We want to understand more because we need to change as a society.
03:46We need to move forward. We need to change. We need to learn from that terrible, terrible
03:51case.
03:52And that's because, Miss Pellicot, she says she's waived her right to anonymity to highlight
03:55the danger to women, other women who may have been drugged or sexually attacked. So do cases
04:01like this and the publicity that they receive, the fact that survivors choose to speak out,
04:07does that encourage other women to report abuse?
04:11Well, I think it's a very interesting, it's a very, very, it's very interesting for women,
04:19but also for the medical staff, because chemical submission means that it's the administration
04:29of a substance, a drug, without the victim's knowledge in order to proceed with a criminal
04:38act or a delinquent purposes. So as the victim has been drugged, she doesn't always know
04:45what happened because there is no, she doesn't have a memory of what happened in the case
04:50of Giselle Pellicot. So she didn't know that she was raped all these times by her husband
04:55and her husband's friends. So as you know, with this trial, we are opening our eyes and
05:03the medical staff also are opening their eyes to the fact that it does happen probably
05:11more often than we think. And so it helps, it gives a bit of awareness to the population,
05:20but also to the medical staff.
05:23And Cecil, you've praised the investigators in this particular case for taking the complaints
05:28of the victim seriously. And this remains a huge problem for victims of rape, not just
05:34here in France, but elsewhere. They're afraid to come forward for many reasons. Many of
05:38them feel that they just simply won't be believed. So how can they be encouraged to come forward
05:44in cases such as this?
05:49You know, there is many things that we have to change in France when it comes to sexual
05:54violences. Unfortunately, it is underreported by victims, but it's also under, it's not
06:03taken seriously by the police or by the justice. This trial right now is a bit of a counterexample
06:12of that because it was taken seriously. All this trial, it all comes from Dominique Pellicot
06:21doing upskirting. You know, it's when you take a picture under the skirt of a woman
06:26and you're, of course it's illegal. And there was like, somebody saw him doing that in a
06:32supermarket and the police came and took it very seriously. They took his telephone and
06:38then they also took his laptop. And when they opened the laptop and the telephone, they
06:44saw all these videos. And this is, it's all started like that. And Giselle Pellicot was
06:49saved because a police officer took seriously upskirting, one picture of an upskirting. So
07:00this is very, it was well, it was well done, but it's so rare because in France,
07:09there is more than 94% of the rape complaint that leads to no trial. There is no trial,
07:17there is no investigation. It's not even investigated. So with that, with this trial
07:26right now, what we're trying to do also with the other feminist organizations is that we are
07:31demanding for a comprehensive legislative reform that could close the legal loopholes that are
07:39still so, so numerous in the judicial process, you know, from complaint to trial, there is so
07:48many dysfunction in France. And thanks to this trial, we are trying to also to raise awareness
07:57among the population and to demand politically a comprehensive legislative reform.
08:04Yeah, because you say that the culture of rape is very present in France. Why is that the case?
08:08And how does France compare to other European countries?
08:12I don't know, comparing, you know, when it comes to rape culture, I don't really know if there is a
08:18magical country where there is no rape culture. And if you know one, tell me, because I think
08:23we're all going to ask for, you know, for refugee there. But it is, in France, we have a lot of
08:32different factors that explains why there is still such a huge rape culture. There is cultural
08:41factors, historical and cultural factors. It has always been very difficult for victims to come
08:48forward and to report sexual violence. Also, the institutions, it's really resistant to changes and
08:59to understand women and to take them seriously. So there is a lack of accountability. You know,
09:06there is impunity in France. There is a huge impunity. There is less than one percent of
09:12rapists that are condemned. Also, you know, our media, our cinema, it was there is so many also
09:21perpetrators that used to have a lot of power in the media and the culture and the cinema that,
09:30of course, you can see that it can be an explanation of why the media or the movies or the
09:40books often portrays sexual violence in a way that normalizes it or romanticizes it.
09:49You know, we have the French gallantry, for instance, that sometimes is not just
09:54gallantry, but more like the French romance and the French kiss and the French men. Well,
10:01actually, it's not that nice because it's, you know, sometimes like this is not seduction,
10:07you know, this is aggression. So we have that in France, for sure. So I don't know how are
10:14the other countries, but I know that we do have our issues in France. And we we hope that with
10:21this trial, among others, but with this trial, we hope that we will something will start to change
10:29in our country because Me Too wasn't enough. It was not enough. We didn't have any political
10:35response to Me Too. So maybe with that one, with that trial that is so huge and so monstrous,
10:45maybe we can have something that changes in France. The case itself, it does appear to have,
10:49though, divided opinion in the town where these crimes are alleged to have taken place,
10:53including the town's mayor. He seems to be almost downplaying the severity of what happened,
10:58suggesting that things could have been worse, you know, if the victim was killed and things are
11:03worse for other women who can clearly remember what happened. So what kind of message does that
11:09send to victims of rape and abuse? Oh, the defence, the lawyers of the defence are really,
11:20how can I say that? It's terrible what they're doing. I think they can defend the clients
11:25without using a rape culture. I mean, they could do it, but they're not. They're not doing it.
11:31They're going the easy way and it's a very humiliating way for the victims. It's terrible
11:39for Giselle Pellicot, the mum, but also Caroline Darion that you can see in the image right now.
11:47They are both so strong and they are so courageous and they're trying to, you know,
11:54they're trying to help other women too with that public trial. And the way that the
12:01defence are defending the clients, saying also that they are rapes and they are
12:07rapes that are not really rapes. And then they're like mixing everything. They're victim blaming.
12:14They are trivialising rapes and the consequences. They're really like, their defence is really
12:22disgusting actually. But, you know, what could you expect from men who do that?
12:29Anne-Cecile, we'll have to leave it there for now, but thank you so much for your time
12:33on the programme this evening. That is Anne-Cecile Mouffet, President of the Fondation Defam.
12:38Well, that is it from us for now. Do stay with us though. We'll be back shortly.