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00:00I'll start this way. How are you feeling? Are you still as bullish? How does how does
00:17Kevin Costner see this through and turn this whole experience into a win?
00:23Well, you know, I, you know, part of it is the win for me is to be able to do my dream.
00:29I let the movie speak for itself. I have to deal with the economics, which are pretty
00:34difficult, you know, in this day and time, what I'm trying to do on an independent level.
00:39The second one is shot and you watched it and you and you see these stories meshing
00:44now and I appreciate that you could feel that. And, you know, it is a forever moment when
00:51I finished three and four. It will. I told you before that two will get harder than one.
00:58I'm not talking about physically making it. They're all hard for the people, for the characters.
01:03It gets harder. It doesn't get easier. And you see they're laden with doubt. They are
01:10abused. They're taken advantage of. Their stories are splitting. Their stories are coming
01:15together. You know, I don't know how Star Wars was framed. I don't know how far along
01:22the writing was on the subsequent movies. But my writing's all done. I look at the story.
01:29I realize it's four movies and I believe in the movies. I believe in the audience. I believe
01:35in my colleagues. I believe in its life. Nothing's a weekend for me. I obviously would want to
01:42see the theatrical grow, but I still have to honor this this this journey. And I find
01:48it really, really compelling. And it's it's thought out.
01:52So in your mind, what is the value of 12 hours of killer content that can be absorbed
02:00a number of ways and not just today?
02:04I think that's what the upside is for people who are only interested in the business side
02:10of things. I happen to believe in the poetry of what we're making, the idea that you can
02:16revisit it. You know, I know when I stop and I don't want to compare this to the Godfather,
02:21but I know that when I when I bump into the Godfather, I can just pick it up right where
02:26I'm watching, because all the scenes, they I don't need to see the first 30. I can just
02:31jump into something and feel like I'm involved. I know each scene is is really in itself a
02:37story. I don't jump around so quickly, but things are coming to a head as as you as you
02:43watch them. So the value of it I've established in my own mind. It's difficult maybe for somebody
02:50who's looking at it in a conventional way of how do I establish the value of this? So
02:56I can't speak to all that. You know, I'm not saying I'm ahead of anybody. I mean, the truth
03:00is, you know, I could be making the biggest mistake of my life, but I'm not when it comes
03:05to storytelling. I really feel that Horizon speaks for the Western genre, speaks to the
03:12American psyche, speaks to the land, speaks to the idea of storytelling that we go down
03:20rabbit holes and we connect things. And that's the joy of connecting these stories and and
03:26guessing at the fate of the characters. And sometimes we're right and sometimes we're
03:31wrong.
03:32Have you taken lessons from this and incorporated them into your plans? Because what I loved
03:40about the second film is it's unhurried. And even your character, I'm watching a character
03:48evolve and build and the narrative arc. We kind of see where this reluctant hero is going
03:57to have to really assert himself. And when it ended, I was like, damn, I got to see where
04:04this ends up, how this pays out. Has anything in your mind changed with this reaction to
04:10the first?
04:12Not really. I think a lot. I've gotten probably more positive response than I've on this movie
04:17than I've ever had on any movie I've had as people see the foundation being built in
04:23the first one. So the thing is, I can't get off my track. I have to stay true to this.
04:29And that doesn't mean I don't look at something. What happens is my character will begin to
04:34dominate three as will Giovanni. And the fact that you can say, man, you're really anxious
04:42to see what happens in three. That's that's a really good sign to me because I come on
04:47very strong in three, as does Giovanni begin to dominate, as will Diamond. Diamond begins
04:55to dominate. And you see these these things and these other characters that come in are
04:59very dynamic. So I'm excited about, you know, making sure that I get that I make the journey
05:07almost like the people who had to migrate west on their own. It's not easy for me. I'm
05:13I'm I'm guessing at things I'm trying. But the one thing I'm not guessing at, Mike, is
05:18my story. The one thing I'm not manipulating, trying to please is my story. I'm on track
05:26with what this journey is. And have I made some adjustments? I have just because I've
05:32seen some things, but not out of fear based moments. You know, Abby didn't really come
05:38back. I thought about her after one and I brought her back into two. And I hope you
05:44enjoy how she came back. I remember you telling me that you didn't intend to direct dances
05:50with wolves. And you had a big director who was like, you know what, let's cut all the
05:56Civil War stuff out. And that is, as I've told you, is are the that's that's the highlight of
06:02the movie for me that, you know, because it just rounds your character in that film. In a
06:09way, you understand why he needed to get out of this. You know, it's a PTSD thing. But that
06:16scene where, you know, all these guys are taking potshots at him when he's on horseback, and
06:22that saves his leg. I don't I don't think it's the same movie without that.
06:26It's not. And in truth, you know, I also have empathy for the director who said that to me
06:32because he's lived a life where he could see executives just lopping that off. So instead of
06:37having a fight over it, he would have just bypass it. I get it. You know, save himself that
06:43fight and go on to the next fight. Let's just not have that. But I but I couldn't have that.
06:49And just circling back, you saw that the character Marigold came back. And that wasn't
06:56intended. That was something that I decided that I would put forth. And I may see her even again
07:04as I evolve her. But I thought that in two, she came up in a very unusual way. I hope you
07:10enjoyed it.
07:11That's one of the things I want to see. Where does where does she go? So do we know the
07:15release pattern on number two at this point?
07:19Yeah, the plan is to come out this year, but I haven't been able to pick a date. I'm still, you
07:25know, I'm I'm still on my own journey. My God, anybody even watching this should realize that
07:31I'm having to live this thing in real time. And it's I'm out here on an artistic limb.
07:37Let's talk about some of the works that influenced and maybe maybe gave you the stones to
07:43put such an epic vision on the screen. What film lit your fuse and made you have to tell
07:48stories on screen?
07:50I never knew that that when I was impressed with a movie, I never translated that I would
07:55tell stories. I just felt like when I was in careful hands, that made the movie experience so
08:02much more enjoyable. Because a lot of times we go to the movies out of habit. And we see
08:07movies that don't move us at all. But we keep going because it's it's something we have to
08:12feed. That relationship we have was sitting in the dark that we just need to go. You know,
08:18that's I'm pretty much on record of when I was young, seeing how the West was one and the
08:23different storylines that came together. But for me, it was kind of like Liberty Valance and
08:30John Ford and the idea that some of it had very average production value because it was shot on a
08:36stage. Back then, people weren't looking as closely as we look now. But you can see those
08:41sets that that town is built on a soundstage. But the reality is the screenplay is so strong that it
08:49fights through all of that. You suddenly just like being on a Broadway play suddenly when it's
08:55operating the way it should, you're engaged and you're not looking around. Sand Pebbles was a
09:02very strong movie for me. You see the betrayal and the men that kind of abandoned the Steve
09:10McQueen character. They see him as some the Joe, you know, he's almost a Jonah that needs to be
09:17cast away. And the integrity of the Richard Crenna character holding on to him. You realize how these
09:23guys really prop up a movie and that's a movie that's well over three hours. It takes its time.
09:30So I was I fell in love with those and that has maybe had me fall out of step or out of grace or
09:38out of vogue. But I have to be who I am. But those movies inform me. Cool Hand Luke informed me of just
09:47riding the proper edge of things. And I've just I've tried to do that. I've got a list here. And so Giant is
09:56on that list. Rio Grande, Fort Apache. I don't see the searchers in here. Well, searchers should be in
10:04there. So let's let's let's just clear that up. Somebody asked me what were my influences and it should be
10:11there. John Wayne was always better with the better actor that's across from him. He always was better. And he
10:19was especially that when the antagonist was formidable, whether it's Lee Marvin and Liberty Valance or somebody
10:28like Henry Fonda in Fort Apache, who's so rigid and the dynamics of it set up so beautifully. Rio Grande is the
10:38dilemma of your son being put in danger. You need to be proud of him. And you also realize that you've inherently put
10:46him in there. And now you can't you can't step in and remove him from that situation or your son would lose all face
10:55with the rest of his command. There are these kind of nice elements that hint at a woman having a stronger place in
11:02Western with Maureen O'Hara dips in a little bit there. She's she's stronger in those movies than she is in the other
11:10ones. But she could become even more. And that's what I've tried to do with the women of Horizon. The women ultimately
11:18are the strength of Horizon giant. You really see you really see the architecture of a man who starts off as a bigot
11:26and a very big deal in Texas, a big wheel, if you will, a good man. But a good man can also have these flaws of being
11:35absolute racist bigot. And ultimately, that's revealed. It's exposed. But somehow, George Stevens in that story, when
11:46he gives him that fistfight played against the yellow ribbon of Texas and and the child is crying and Elizabeth Taylor is
11:53crying and the hero is being beaten, losing. And it's not what happens in American cinema. Heroes win. He's being beaten.
12:04And but he salvages it when when when he finally comes to grips with he's been a racist because he's just seen somebody do
12:14that now to this his daughter in law, which he didn't like his grandchild, what he having difficulty getting his arms around when
12:23he sees them belittled. It lights a fuse in us and it should light a fuse in all of us that that's what we need to stand for. And
12:31when Elizabeth Taylor bends down to him, when he slumped against the wall and says, you never stood taller. That's a heroic line
12:39for me. You never stood taller. So where do we stand taller in our own lives or in our movies is when we can create an
12:47architecture where we're challenged and we have to see what an actor does in those moments.
12:53Also here is Gone with the Wind. You know, I mean, that movie has had some controversy recently about, you know, about its
13:02depiction in its period. It was just it was overwhelming.
13:06Epic quality stood out. But you also saw these people who were living a pretty grand life, Victorian life. And you saw them reduced
13:16down to the very nub. They were just common. And they were at the end of the day having to scrape by, you know, listen, how the
13:24Westwood one has some very corny moments in it, the dancing and the things that, you know, but I was always able to somehow get past
13:33those things and look at the remarkable romance between Gregory Peck and Debbie Reynolds. Forget about some of the hokey things
13:42that Carol Baker and Jimmy Stewart love affair. I it hit on things. And so all that to me was if there's building blocks of
13:51somebody, it's hard to put Gone with the Wind down. It's a building block of colossal proportions for film that other directors can
14:00go and let's say hold their tone longer and not dip into some of the corny things. If you if you will, there's room to observe it and
14:10see where it was and see what someone could build on. You know, movies are best when they hold their tone because they never lose
14:19their grip of the reality of us watching if they do hold their tone. You know, when you pull back in Atlanta and you see all those
14:26wounded soldiers and you understand that there was probably 30 million people that lived in America at that point, 30 million. There's 300
14:35million of us now. And that war, there was no it went on for four years, everyone was touched by it. And the sheer magnitude of those men
14:44that were wounded that would never recover. It's very similar to what Cameron did so beautifully in Titanic, when he pulled back and had
14:53that one shot, where you realize the scope of all these people who were thrown into the water, who would not survive. And it was
15:02monumental. So my so I can't help but not be impressed with Gone with the Wind.
15:10I'm looking at this list of movies. And here we've got Clark Gable, we've got John Wayne, we've got James Dean, Rock Hudson, Paul Newman and
15:19Steve McQueen. There's connective tissue between the last two of those and you. And you grew up in a in a city and during a time when they were
15:29incentivized to build stars, you know, you were at Warner Brothers for a long time, you were one of their signature guys. Why does it seem like
15:37there's such a small handful of stars that we turn out for? Why? Why do you think that has changed? Or maybe am I imagining it? And then we can only
15:48look back and say, wow, that was a great period of stars?
15:51Well, you know, there's people able to build their careers now off a single movie. And you know, the franchising that goes on with movies and how
16:01wonderful to be a part of something like that, you know, but can you break away from that movie and the movies that are individual? Does the audience
16:10accept you? They certainly accept you in those franchises. But will they accept you in a field of dreams or bull Durham, a JFK or something like that,
16:20you know, and what happens is the minute they dip their toe into some kind of movie that may be a little different. And that movie doesn't have a big
16:29box office saying, do they scurry back to the franchise to reestablish himself with an audience? They do mostly and I think it's smart. I think it's
16:39really good business. And I'm not disparaging towards it. It's just if you step into something and it doesn't have wild success, you go flying back to
16:49this thing that you know, is supported. So when you do a movie like what I've done, and sometimes people take some funny shots at it. And I know how
16:58carefully horizon was put together. And I know, more than anything, the letters that I continue to get about my colleagues about my DP, I'm really
17:08gratified, you know, people talking about Jimmy Murrow, and Elisa Lovas, my costumer, and john Baird, who co co wrote with me and taking note of the
17:18writing, taking note of Derek Hill, you know, the production design, what people have done in this movie, and my actors, these women are saying incredible
17:29lines, they're incredible performances, Sienna Miller, Abby Lee, I mean, Ella Hunt are doing incredibly brave things as actors. And it shouldn't be noted
17:42they're just in a Western, they're actually taking command of the screen. Even somebody like Luke Wilson is coming on very strong as that. I heard some people
17:51take some shots at him. But these were just normal men that were voted just trying to get to where they're going. And when you see what Luke Wilson's done in it,
18:01it's really remarkable as a supporting actor. And then of course, Sienna Miller, who continues to will don't really begins to dominate into, as you see her character,
18:13relentless in her pursuit to build a house, she refuses to lose in that negotiation. And these people all did this in 52 days,
18:23I did this piece when Top Gun Maverick came out. And it was about how all the things that Tom Cruise did with the young actors, you know, he basically held tutorials every
18:34morning, and he allowed them to ask questions, you know, because they're all young, they want to be stars, they want to, they want to be the next Tom Cruise. And Glenn Powell, who is
18:44certainly doing very impressive work, and he fits that star mold. And Tom asked him, Well, you know, what do you think? And he basically said, I think it's about getting the
18:56best role getting the best scripts. And Tom said, No, that's not I don't agree with you. He said, What it is, is, is taking the role you do get, and just doing it so well,
19:09that the next role comes. And so the better roles will come from there. And so I guess what I'm what I'm wondering, if you were sitting there on that deck, what would you tell those those young
19:20fellas?
19:21Well, I think the play is the thing. I think whatever role you take, I don't think Tom's wrong, that whatever role you take, you should take it because you know, you can breathe some air into it, you know, that it can stand for
19:34something small. But but it's in the writing, you can tell if you can make an impression there. And yes, sometimes you stand out in a movie that doesn't. But that will be because of the writing, and also the
19:47ability to be inventive. I see Abby Lee did that with with her character, the prostitute that plays I mean, she's it's just a tremendous impact. And, and I watched Andrew Howard become that killer that I have to
20:02confront and to that's as good as you get. With that's anything Lee Marvin anything anybody else has ever ever done. But I think there is something to being able to talk to these actors. I'm glad Tom, you know, you did that. I think we're all kind of saying the same thing. But we are propped up make no mistake by language. It's language that informs us. It's what moves us forward.
20:28If you believe in something, don't be talked out of it, which I suppose, especially when you're a young actor, trying to please, that's a natural instinct. But the way you've made these two movies, and the fact that you didn't become a star until you were almost 30. Right? You took your time and there doesn't seem to be any hurry up instinct in you at all. How valuable is that?
20:51Well, first thing I would have loved to burst on the scene like Tom did coming across the floor in a risky business. I would have loved that. I had my own moment in Silverado that were was an opportunity for me. Let's just think of it athletically. Sometimes your time is your time. And most most athletes the best at their position all the way to the point through Little League, through high school, through college. And there's a moment in time where you fall off.
21:20You're you, you don't make it. And if you can go all the way to the pros, you're going to realize that will be the first time a pro has ever sat on the bench. The first time he's never been the star and he's been a star his whole life. And so what happens is you can either pout, or you can look, you watch what's trying to happen in the game.
21:43You watch the player that you're trying to replace. What's he doing? Is he moving to his left? Is he moving to his right? So you can pout when you're not a star, think that you should be a lot of things. Or you can watch what's trying to happen out there. I thought I was ready much earlier than I was. I'm a better actor now than I was four years ago. I know more and I'm trying to still build on my acting.
22:11I was just thinking back in your mythology where you were going to play the guy that they all gather around to mourn in the Big Chill. And then suddenly you're not in there. What would you say was the biggest obstacle that you've had to overcome to allow you to turn these massive influential movies into your own language as an actor and a filmmaker?
22:35Well, that was such a great opportunity for me. The Big Chill. Those were all people that were established. Glenn Close, Jeff Goldblum, Kevin Kline, you know, all the other actors that were there, you know, they were established. William Hurt. I was lucky enough to be picked. I didn't end up in the final movie. But I sat on the bench. And even when it was released, and I watched what was what was trying to happen.
23:03I was watching the rehearsal process that Lawrence Kasdan allowed and how he treated people. There was a lot to be learned there that I carried forward. You know, you know, it can exist on the resume can be an inside joke. You're the dead guy. But I, I built so much off of that moment. I gained so much just sitting on the bench on the outside watching, thinking, well, I'll have my moment.
23:29And when my moment comes, I'll be more ready today than I was yesterday.
23:35What was the first time maybe it was a success? Maybe it was approval from someone whose opinion mattered to you? What first gave you the confidence that you know what, I got I should be here. I can belong here.
23:49Well, Wally Nesita was a casting director who really had a force of will for me. So she's very important in my thing. But I will tell you when I knew what happened for me, which is when I actually got that role in the big chill. And I knew it driving on the 134 freeway going back to Pasadena. I was on the yellow brick road.
24:08Now, other people have a tendency to look at what movie you popped, what movie you did this, where did you emerge? Oh, you did this or you did that. But I knew at that moment, I had been working so hard for this, that when I got the part, I knew it was going to change my life.
24:26Now, you know, I'm going to go back to the first and second installments of Horizon. It never occurred to me until I watched it. Well, how did these people come together? How did they get there? You know, and of course, there's a flyer about Horizon. And how do these towns that we just see the towns, but we never really see how does this happen?
24:50What burns in you that you would put yourself at risk and devote so many years to seeing this through?
25:00Yeah, I don't really know how important it is. It's just something that was a vision for me to tell I and I felt that it stood as entertainment and would stand a long time as entertainment.
25:12But, you know, these people, I they they they emanated from certain points where once you left that last city, once you left St. Louis, once you left Council Bluffs, you were on your own and you were going and people masked in these different places and they were going to they heard rumors about different places in the country.
25:36And then what happens is salesman sales mentality understood that, too.
25:42And some people saw a way to get rich by understanding where towns could maybe be.
25:48And we didn't have to look very far to figure out where the best places would be to inhabit because the Native Americans had already done that.
25:57They were very smart people.
25:59They were all the great places where these cities were.
26:02They were because the confluence of water can flow of the animals.
26:07So we went and we basically mimicked where they were and we co-opted these best places.
26:13But what we really didn't deal with was the that they were contested.
26:18And sometimes these towns, it took them years to emerge.
26:22But there was this idea of people back east, you know, fueling this with flyers, go to my town, go to this town, go to this town.
26:30There was a competition for something that didn't even belong to them.
26:35And it resulted in the displacement of people who had flourished, were flourishing, the Native Americans.
26:44The great moment in the first film when Sam Worthington says to these people who have just been routed, you know, you see those headstones across the river.
26:54Wasn't that a hint for you?
26:56And one guy says, yeah, that's why we're on this side of the river.
27:00It's that's that spirit of, well, I realize that it's that it's risky and I'm risking my family and this and I'm risking the elements and I'm risking the dangers.
27:11It's a theme and it's also based on reality.
27:14They can't go back.
27:16You know, what happens is when people said goodbye in the 1800s, it was goodbye.
27:20There's a little scene in Dance of the Wolves where we find a body, just a skeleton.
27:25And and a teamster makes Robert Pastorelli makes fun.
27:29He says, you know, somebody back east is wondering now, why don't he write?
27:33And there was real drama in however that that body ended up.
27:37Yeah, we built on the other side.
27:39What choice do we have?
27:41That was the only thing that we could do.
27:43OK, that looks like a little bad luck.
27:45Let's stay on this side.
27:46They're not going back east because it's just as dangerous.
27:50They know how hard it was to get to where they are.
27:53Some people just stop where they were because they were worn out and weren't going to go any farther.
27:58So when you get into two, you realize there's a decision to be made because of people that arrive at what this flyer is supposed to look like.
28:07It doesn't look like that at all.
28:09Luke Wilson, Van Weeden, the character aptly says, I wasn't hoping for a lot.
28:14But this is even half of what I thought this could be.
28:18So they've run into a lie, into into a myth of what this town was.
28:23And if they're going to stay, they're going to have to fight for every inch of it.
28:28So you premiered the first one at Cannes and you premiere the second one at Venice.
28:34And these are these are well-run festivals run by cinephiles in the extreme.
28:42What what made it so important for you to take this second installment and premiere it there?
28:47That was a plan.
28:49I had to have a plan.
28:50I don't just make something and figure out it was a plan that that I would I would go this route.
28:55I think this, you know, appeals to people.
28:57It's an original movie.
28:59But what was most pleasing about what Cannes did was was amazing for me.
29:04And what and what Venice has done is equally amazing in the sense that they've said on
29:08the closing day they're going to show the first one in the morning and have a brunch
29:13and then have people reassemble three hours later and watch the second one.
29:17So they're really in love with watching the journey.
29:21That's really pleasing to me.
29:23And it's emblematic of how this can be viewed and how it will be someday.
29:29And you're you're but you're hell bent on continuing.
29:33Do we know when you'll shoot three?
29:35I've shot about 10 days of it.
29:37I won't bore you with why I had to do that.
29:40But I did.
29:41And so it's been a struggle.
29:43But my my my hopes are that the documentation of the struggle isn't bigger than the recognition
29:51of the work that people have done in this movie.
29:54And I and and for now, I've had colleagues really recognizing the work that that these
30:01actors and these people that come together to make films have done.
30:05You're going to see this through.
30:06You're you're hell bent.
30:07You're going to end up with that 12 hours.
30:10Well, I'm not.
30:11Listen, I'm not Ahab.
30:12I'm not looking to take anybody down at the expense.
30:16I'm putting my own money into these things.
30:20I'm sticking with it.
30:21I'm not running away from it.
30:23If it's something I have to pull, then I just keep pulling it.
30:27I don't think it will be complete until I get to the fourth one.
30:30And people that have faith in what they've seen and two, I owe them my effort to make
30:36three and four.