Frank Islam speaks with South Asia expert, Dr Sreeradha Datta, Professor, Jindal Global University, Sonipat, India on the recent happenings in Bangladesh | Washington Calling
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00:00This is Frank Islam, Chairman and CEO of FY Investment Group and your host of Washington
00:21Calling, where we interview leading voices from business and politics that impact you,
00:29the viewer. Today we are fortunate to have a distinguished guest and her name is Professor
00:35Sreeradha Datta. I may not have pronounced it correctly, but if I do not, I apologize.
00:45She's a professor of Global Jindal University in India, a non-resident fellow at the Institute
00:50of South Asian Studies in Singapore. She's the best person today to tell our audience
00:55about what's happening in Bangladesh. She continues to serve on the academic boards
01:00of several universities. So my question to you is, where do we start from you? Well,
01:12my question, thank you for coming to our show and thank you for joining us.
01:16Thank you. I'm very happy to be here. Yeah, okay.
01:24You are a South Asian academic with a special interest in Bangladesh, a country in that
01:29many say went through a second revolution recently. Do you believe what happened in
01:34August 5 in Bangladesh and do you think the revolution was expected? And what are the
01:40challenges, political challenges that Bangladesh faces today?
01:44Yes, there has been many such interesting phrases being used like a revolution. I would
01:51actually hold back a little bit on those phrases, but it's certainly break from the
01:55past, break from what has been the tendency of the last government who was there for three
02:03consecutive terms.
02:05Yeah, but Sheikh Hasina, the Prime Minister, what is she right now?
02:12She's in India just now. She had to leave her country on 5th of August because I think
02:19what we know from the public domain is that the army chief said that he would not be able
02:25to keep her safe because I think there was a lot of local resentment against her and
02:31it seemed that the youth would overrun Gondar Bhavan, which it happened eventually, of course,
02:37but she had left and she was safely in India at that point of time.
02:43So, subsequently, as you know, I think from 8th August onwards, Nobel laureate Professor
02:49Yunus has taken over as the head of the interim government, which has now got about 21
02:54members, of which, of course, there are two student members too in part for some two
02:59particular portfolios. I think the first and foremost, given the violence we saw in the
03:05aftermath, not only, I mean, there was this whole thing led to the student and the state
03:12security apparatus, the problem that they had, and then, of course, 5th August event.
03:16But subsequent to 5th August, we saw a huge law and order problem in the country, where,
03:23of course, the police forces, as you know, have been extremely unpopular and they went back and
03:27they were not there. And military, of course, wasn't wanting to do anything, given what they
03:32had faced a few days ago. So right now, I think restoring, restoration of peace, stability,
03:38law and order, and as we all know, Bangladesh's economy hasn't been doing well. From the time
03:44that Bangladesh was known as that, you know, the miracle growth and all of those things that we
03:48talked about, but a year and more, in fact, I would say more, we've seen the economy really
03:54go downhill. So right now, I think the government has to address that, has to address the huge
04:00corruption that the banking sector saw. So those kind of, I think, are priority. And of course,
04:06there are many other factors that they would have to examine, but more importantly,
04:11give way to a free and fair election. I think that's what the youth would want to see.
04:17Since we're talking about the free and fair election, do you think the interim government,
04:23led by Nobel laureate Muhammad Yunus, who I know personally, I met him several times in the United
04:28States, capable of holding free and fair election in Bangladesh, can he, can this government help
04:35restore law and order, what the future holds for democracy? Does this development impact the region
04:44and in a sense, the broader global community? Is Bangladesh on the brink of new
04:57democracy, of the extra new life?
05:00Let me begin with democracy. You know, one of my first works on Bangladesh, I called it
05:05Bangladesh, a fragile democracy. I still believe that Bangladeshis want to see democracy. But what
05:12we, you know, there has been a history of every particular political leader elected. Once they
05:17elected, they trample with the system. And we've seen how judiciary, legislature, everything kind
05:23of gets, you know, under the cloud. And so that is something which I, again, as I said, this 5th
05:30August was a breakthrough moment. We really hope that they'd be able to kind of get the systemic
05:37problems in place. In fact, they will address the systemic problems, which is what we just
05:42referenced earlier. But I think elections is something that Bangladesh would certainly,
05:46what are the multi-party elections, which we didn't see the last couple of months,
05:50multi-party elections, which we didn't see the last couple of years in Bangladesh. So I do believe
05:55that it has been troubled for the last several decades, just not now. But Bangladeshis, I think,
06:01yearn for a multi-party, free and fair, democratic standards and norms to be established properly.
06:08Do you think they're going to get a democracy and they're going to restore the law and order?
06:14Yes. Yes, certainly. I think, you know, I'm just going by the precedence of the previous
06:20interim government who, it is known as the caretaker government, who overstayed.
06:25But they were able to restore a lot of the problems that the, you know, the polity was
06:30facing at that time. This is a period of between 2006 to 2008. So we actually saw Bangladesh in
06:372008, December elections, for the first time, have an extremely clean voters list, a separation of,
06:45you know, organs of the government, and many other positive elements, which were introduced
06:49by that particular caretaker government, which is certainly backed by the military. But this time,
06:54it's a different nature. We still haven't seen any timeline. We know that interim government
07:00would suddenly want to hold free and fair elections. But I'm not having seen a timeline
07:05from them as yet. And I'm not sure what is it that they want to do. As I said, priority would
07:09be to restore peace and order, get the economy going. But how many things can they tackle? Or
07:15how many things would they just want to address in the immediate context, and then have elected
07:20government, you know, take over and address many of the other systemic problems that Bangladesh has
07:25been faced with in the last couple of decades? There are reports that Bangladesh students who
07:31led the recent uprising to oust Prime Minister Sheikh Hasina's autocracy, she was a pretty much
07:38not a, she was an autocratic ruler, just like Modi is in India. And sometimes some people feel that
07:44way. I shouldn't be saying that, but I did. And if I did, I apologize. Applying to start a political
07:50party to end the country's domination by two political parties led by two women. Do you believe
07:56it's a wise move? Certainly, I would actually think that this is a good time to break this
08:03completely, you know, dynastic politics that Bangladesh has seen ever since. And led by
08:10Sheikh Hasina's father. Yes, but also Khalida Zia, if you recall, was run by Zia-ur-Rehman,
08:18and then it's Khalida Zia. And of course, her son is sitting in London right now facing a lot
08:24of charges, so I don't know. But it's both the political parties, the two main political parties
08:29are very, very steeped into family hierarchy. And that binary, so both dynastic politics and
08:35the binary of only two political parties, I think this is the break. And if the students can,
08:41only they will be able to. So I do certainly hope, you know, what you're suggesting that
08:46they have their hopes and aspirations for new political parties to come up through the movement
08:52that students have led. I would certainly look forward to that, because that would actually,
08:57you know, enable a far more greater level playing field for every political
09:02actor and stakeholders in Bangladesh. How will the Bangladesh changes impact
09:08the political dynamics in South Asia, in particular the ties with India? You know,
09:13that Modi and, as I understand, Prime Minister of Bangladesh were good friends.
09:20Do you think that Bangladesh will remain a democracy?
09:26Yes, I think so. I mean, I don't doubt that, and I think that's what the youth have been
09:31talking about. But I think in terms of relationship with India, it is true that Bangladesh
09:38Awami League has historically been very close with India. Sheikh Hasina has been a, you know,
09:43very old friend of India. She stayed here earlier, if you recall, when assassination of Mujib took
09:48place, when she was not able to enter Bangladesh, she was here for six, seven years. So clearly,
09:53there's a, you know, a long, deep friendship that existed in India and Sheikh Hasina.
09:58And Prime Minister Modi, as you say, has also carried on with that. So while that aspect is
10:03also true, but I do believe right now we are sitting in that kind of a crux, where in South
10:09Asia or elsewhere, there's an interdependence which has grown. And while India is certainly,
10:14and I think Prime Minister Modi has said this many times, that many of India's
10:18international ambitions into, you know, what it wants to do, its goals, all of that is also
10:24taking Bangladesh along with it. And much of that in terms of regionalism,
10:29cross-border facility, transport, infrastructure that we are building needs Bangladesh's support,
10:34which Bangladesh is very ably given under Sheikh Hasina. But also Bangladesh, as you know,
10:40India, you know, issues the highest number of visas in the world for Bangladeshis,
10:46which is essentially on medical tourism, but even otherwise. And also in terms of the economy,
10:52as you know, Bangladesh's main, one of the major contributors of its growth story is the
10:57Reddmitt government, which is all... And they come to United States also.
11:01Yes, exactly. United States, EU and other countries where they earn a lot from that.
11:06But a large portion of that industry is also supported by the raw materials they buy from
11:11India. So I'm just saying on various levels, Bangladesh and India are interdependent.
11:18And I think the youth would want to see, you know, lies, which is something that they want
11:25to see a better future, a more positive future. And that only lies in working together. I'm always
11:30convinced about the fact, and I'm going to say it again, while at this point of time, while I'm
11:34speaking to you, if you just open Facebook or any of the other social media, you'll see there's a lot
11:39of anti-India, you know, rhetoric going on in Bangladesh, which is natural because it's a
11:44reflection of, they're very angry with what Shekhar Sinha, you use the word autocrat,
11:48she certainly was. And, you know, she suppressed many voices. So clearly, there has been anger and
11:54resentment. And since we are so closely aligned to what the anger also has been on India, I mean,
11:59it's a natural fallout. But I think once sense prevails, once tempers cool down, they will see
12:06the dividends in working with India. That I think, it should not be lost on the youth. And I have,
12:12and I'm sure you've seen a lot of these interviews, the student leaders have done,
12:16they're so impressive. I mean, every time I hear somebody, it's, you know, they actually have a
12:22vision for Bangladesh. And I'm sure they understand that, you know, a healthy, robust Bangladesh
12:29is possible when it, you know, works with its neighbors closely. Also, India is a very important
12:34neighbor for them. Tell me a little bit about the population of Bangladesh and what are the
12:40main industries they focus on and why the relationship between United States and India,
12:47as well as other countries, should be a cornerstone of their democracy.
12:54Well, Redmond garment industry, of course, is the main, you know, focus. And they're now trying to,
13:00we've often talked about this, how they need to, you know, get that basket into a different other.
13:05And they're looking at artificial intelligence. They're looking at the other, you know,
13:10other aspects. Yeah. But at the same time, I think US has, as I said, not only because of the Redmond
13:17garment industry, but US and Bangladesh have had a close relationship for a variety of reasons.
13:23If you recall, this was a couple of years ago in Bangladesh launched its Indo-Pacific outlook,
13:29which was certainly I'm sure something that the US would have encouraged it to do. So clearly,
13:33Bangladesh has a vision where it also, you know, is working in what the US sees in terms of what
13:40the region offers. So Bangladesh clearly positions itself on, you know, at that space. But in the
13:46recent, especially in the last election early this year, in January, when we saw that Bangladesh was
13:51heading towards a kind of, again, a one sided election, and I remember USA making some very
13:58strong voices against that. You remember, there's a sanction that was brought in against Rab.
14:03There were threatens of other sanctions if the election was going to be one sided. So there has
14:07been that little complication about that. But I think US's interest in South Asia is something
14:14which is going to be enduring and sustainable. And Bangladesh is also part of the Indo-Pacific,
14:19beyond Bengal, you know, the growth story that they're looking at in terms of
14:24developing more partnership in the region.
14:28So you described the fact that the US was not happy with the Prime Minister Sheikh Hasina,
14:34but Professor, you know, seems to have many friends in the United States,
14:38who have protested his prosecution at the hands of Hasina. How do you see the US role play out
14:46in Bangladesh, where we understand that China has substantial stake, not that we compete against
14:52China. But I want to get your reaction. What do you think about it?
15:00US and Bangladesh will continue to work together. And the very fact that you mentioned,
15:04Professor Yunus has friends who support him from US. So I think US would like to see
15:09Bangladesh go back to a multi-party democratic nation.
15:14Not a two party system.
15:16Yes.
15:17Right.
15:18Yeah, I mean, I mean, you know, that, that I think break, everybody wants to see that.
15:24But, and it's without, I mean, of course, that we know at this point of time, we've seen
15:29former Prime Minister Sheikh Hasina has been, has issued a couple of statements, which is,
15:35you know, she's alleging that it was thanks to the US who's been behind this particular
15:40movement and all of that. But without going into...
15:44I hope that's not the case.
15:46I wouldn't think so. But, I mean...
15:48But you never know.
15:50Whatever, I leave it there. But I'm saying that there is a long term interest that both
15:56will work together. But at the same time, I would like to mention that China is actually
16:02the one who has far greater stakes in South Asia, as well as Bangladesh. And over the years,
16:07not only has ever since 75, when post Mujib that China recognised Bangladesh, from that time to
16:15now, China has been not only the greatest, the strongest defence partner, but in terms of the
16:23growth story, the infrastructure development, much of what has, you know, positive infrastructure
16:29development and other things that has happened in Bangladesh has been very heavily supported
16:33by China. While of course, there are many questions about the kind of, you know, the
16:38funds which has been used, the kind of loans credited, Bangladesh is facing challenges in
16:43terms of a debt servicing now, but it's not necessarily because of the problem with China.
16:48But because of endemic corruption, many of the infrastructure projects, if you look at
16:53the budget, it's double usually about, you know, the similar, you know, infrastructure
16:58development that's taking place in other countries in South Asia, India inclusive.
17:02So those are the things which are now coming out in the open, there has been some talk about it on
17:07and off. So those issues will be addressed. But China is one particular country who's been able
17:13to very effectively work with across the leaders, it doesn't matter who's in Dhaka, whether it's a
17:18BNP led government, it's a, you know, Awami led government, they have always been able to work
17:23effectively. And in the last few years, we've seen China being an extremely close partner,
17:28I don't expect anything to change, irrespective of who comes in now. As we know, across South
17:35Asia, they have worked very effectively with whoever is in the seat of power. And with the
17:42interim government or with the next elected government, China is going to be, you know,
17:48engaged just as much strongly as they were in the past.
17:51So they will be a major player, China?
17:54Of course, there's no doubt on that front.
17:56Well, China, India don't get along, right?
17:58Yes. Yeah, they don't. Yeah. And I, in fact, think that it's probably works in favor of many
18:05of the South Asian neighbors. Because also having India as a strong, you know, partner,
18:11also is a messaging to China, right? That and I think that's exactly what India,
18:16Bangladesh should be working on that while they build, and they continue to build on the
18:20robust partnership that India and Bangladesh has had over the several decades. Similarly,
18:26they would also and I think, while many are questioning whether Bangladesh is going down
18:31the way that Sri Lanka has in terms of debt servicing problems. I think Bangladesh has
18:37been a little more cautious, there has been issues, but that's more of a corruption led
18:40issue. But Bangladesh will continue to work closely. And I think having the two partners
18:45is a good balance for both of them. And there's no doubt about the fact that India and China,
18:53and both of them in their own different ways have contributed to Bangladesh's growth story.
18:59So why would they lose out on both these very, I think, you know, friendly partnership that
19:06they've enjoyed on both sides. Do you have a confidence in Muhammad Yunus,
19:11political party that he will be able to sustain the law and order and retain what I consider the
19:18fair and free election? Do you have confidence? I have a lot of hope,
19:22yes, on Professor Yunus, because, you know, I know him personally, I met him.
19:26Yeah, I don't, but I mean, I don't know about, I mean, he, of course, doesn't have a political
19:31experience in that sense. I mean, everybody in interim government, you know, is inexperienced
19:38in terms of political experiences. But so there's an issue of, you know, the aspiration and the
19:43ambitions of the youth. And how are they? How will the interim government be able to do they have
19:49the capacity? You know, you need capacity, you need wherewithal, you need systemic changes,
19:54you need a proper structure to be brought in again. And, you know, so it's going to be a
19:59challenge. It's not going to be an easy task for anybody at that point. And Professor Yunus,
20:05of course, is a person that I think in Bangladesh, everybody looks up to. He's aspirational.
20:10He is the fellow who established the micromanagement.
20:14Yes. So, I mean, I think there's lots of hopes pinged on him. And I'm quite confident that he's
20:21not going to disappoint his own countrymen and all of us who are watching him closely. I really
20:27hope on that. But it's a huge challenge. And, you know, this interim government looks really large.
20:33So I'm not sure. But I just hope that they don't play on the rhetorics, which they seem to be in
20:38the last couple of days, if I've noticed. And it seems that some elements who are playing a far
20:43stronger role than we expected to. And I'm referring here to BNP and some of the Islamists,
20:48some of the things that's come brought to our notice, what is happening is something I think
20:53this government has to rein down, you know, kind of control that. Because you can't let Bangladesh
20:58go exactly what you had wanted to change. If you're, you know, the same political retribution,
21:04the same rhetoric, the same, you know, that is not what we expect from this. And again,
21:10I'm very confident that the youth will ensure that one sheds those kind of unnecessary
21:18loud noises, which I not recall, but, you know, moves Bangladesh on a journey, which is
21:24about stability and growth and peace.
21:27I was told Muhammad Yunus was the fellow that went to the Hindu and saying that you live,
21:36we have to live in peace and harmony together, rather than fighting against each other. And I
21:42thought that was a good move on his part. Absolutely. I mean, especially in the aftermath
21:47of the violence that took place against many of these, you know, Hindu structures and Hindu
21:51families. I think he visited... Which is wrong, which is totally unacceptable to anyone,
21:57including United States. Yes. So, which is, which is, I think, his move to go visit temple,
22:04talk to the many families was certainly in the right, I think, a very good positive step forward.
22:10And I think it conveyed a very strong message that and that I think Bangladesh should be a land
22:16of amity. It should be where everybody coexists. And I don't see why it can't, because everybody
22:23would contribute in their own particular way to the development of the nation.
22:29Tell me a little bit about the Bangladesh in terms of geography. It's right next to the West
22:33Bengal, correct? Yes. And it's a population. How much is the population of the Bangladesh?
22:40About 140 million. 140. And how much, how many people are minorities there in Bangladesh?
22:49The Hindu minorities are about 8 percent. So, that's fairly high. 13 million. Yeah. Yeah. That's
22:56fairly high. And they have to coexist, as you suggested. And also, I wanted you to tell me a
23:06little bit more about Bangladesh before we depart. Do you have anything to say?
23:11No, I'm saying that Bangladesh right now is going through a crisis.
23:15Political challenges. The crisis is not over. And I think, as I said, you know, some of the
23:21unsavory incidents which has been brought to our notice, I think the whole world is watching,
23:25is something that we hope that, you know, the interim government will be able to clamp down on
23:31and ensure that what they want to do, they actually want to ensure that what the problems
23:37the Bangladesh faced in the last 10 or 15 years, it's something that they can move away from and,
23:43you know, introduce a far more different Bangladesh again, bring back the Bangladesh
23:49that they dreamed of, the Sonar Bangla that we often talk about.
23:53Well, Bangladesh used to be part of Pakistan, as you all know.