Connect or DIE! Freedomain Call In

Stefan Molyneux

Join us in this episode as we delve into heartfelt stories shared by callers about navigating complex family dynamics and relationships. From conflicts with partners rooted in childhood issues to challenges of differing cultural backgrounds in relationships, we explore the importance of communication, understanding, and honesty. We touch on identifying red flags, setting boundaries, and addressing toxic behavior within families, emphasizing the balance between loyalty, autonomy, and emotional well-being. Through these stories, we highlight the significance of open dialogue, moral guidance, and fostering healthy connections within family relationships for a harmonious and supportive environment.  Join the PREMIUM philosophy community on the web for free!  NOW AVAILABLE FOR SUBSCRIBERS: MY NEW BOOK 'PEACEFUL PARENTING' - AND THE INTERACTIVE PEACEFUL PARENTING AI AND AUDIOBOOK!  Also get the Truth About the French Revolution, the interactive multi-lingual philosophy AI trained on thousands of hours of my material, private livestreams, premium call in shows, the 22 Part History of Philosophers series and much more!  See you soon!  https://freedomain.locals.com/support/promo/UPB2022

Transcript

00:00:00I've listened to you for a long time. So it's a little surreal to talk to you.

00:00:05Hopefully, it doesn't stay too surreal. It doesn't get weirder and weirder. Hopefully,

00:00:10I'm sure we'll, we'll avoid that. But yeah, go ahead.

00:00:15I think that the first there's like kind of two things I think I'd like to get out of this call

00:00:22as much as we're able is I want to be like a better wife and a better mother. And I feel like

00:00:32there's conflicts in my husband and my relationship that are often due to outside us factors. But then

00:00:45they're affecting our kids and our family. Because yeah, sometimes we're fighting and

00:00:53that's not helpful for our family. No, I get that. And what are you guys fighting about?

00:01:06There's a lot of it is driven by I think, our extended families.

00:01:10Um, sorry, and I'm sorry, I was completely imprecise in my question. My apologies.

00:01:17What's the surface level stuff that you're fighting about? You know, like people fight

00:01:20about dishes or money or sex or like, what's what's the surface level stuff that you guys

00:01:24are fighting about? How do the topics manifest? I would say it's often like,

00:01:34I got really hungry and wanted to go like, through the Taco Bell drive through to have

00:01:41something to eat like immediately. And then he I like I made I like said it multiple times.

00:01:48And then one of the kids said they wanted to go to a different restaurant for lunch.

00:01:53And then he was like, Oh, great, let's go head up this other restaurant. And then we had to wait

00:01:58too long to get our food. And then I got really upset. And it has a recent example.

00:02:04Okay, no, that's good. No, that's, that's good. And I appreciate it's amazing how small these

00:02:09things are, but then how big, how big they can deep right? How big they can dig. So you are

00:02:16hungry and you wanted Taco Bell, your husband didn't want Taco Bell. And you ended up going

00:02:22to some other restaurant where it took too long to get your food. Is that right?

00:02:25Yeah, hearing the kids. So it's, it's usually something else like someone else,

00:02:29whether it be our kids or extended family.

00:02:37I mean, it's mentioned a different restaurant. Oh, I like that one. And then end up going that

00:02:41direction not realizing, wait, that one takes a little bit longer. And my wife actually needs

00:02:44something now. And then she gets hurt by that she needed something now. And her voice was not

00:02:51heard. I mean, I did not care. I think that's a good way of summarizing.

00:02:55Okay. So I mean, there's the words and then I mean, I'm sure you guys know all this stuff,

00:02:59right? So I'll just touch on it briefly. There's the words and then there's the meaning, right?

00:03:04So if it's like, well, we're not going to Taco Bell is the words and the feeling is

00:03:12you don't care about me. Is that right?

00:03:15Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Because I was like, I just want a quick taco from the drive through and then I

00:03:21want to go home and have an actual meal.

00:03:24So you you just wanted a type me over. They call it or something like that, right?

00:03:28Yeah, that I was just destined for I'm like, you know, nine months pregnant,

00:03:32and I just needed some food. We spent too long at the beach because

00:03:34you're denying food to a woman nine months pregnant, you monster.

00:03:39Yeah, right. Eating for three and a half. It could be twins in their triplets,

00:03:44who knows your whole village. Okay, just kidding. All right. All right. All right.

00:03:49Yeah. Sorry, you did hear your wife say she want to talk about right?

00:03:55Yes.

00:03:56And what was your thought processes to the husband? What is your thought process?

00:04:02About? Yeah, that.

00:04:04Yeah, so my thought process, I don't mind Taco Bell, we could have gone there. But I was

00:04:08immediately thinking, well, for going when to go out to eat, might as well do something better.

00:04:14And then when the kids mentioned a different restaurant, and that sounded better.

00:04:17So then I mentioned that one to her. And I think part of the problem can be sometimes

00:04:24where I mentioned something to her, and then she agrees with it, but doesn't really agree

00:04:30with it, because she feels like she needs to agree with it. And it might stem a little bit

00:04:34from her family. Well, I mean, to be fair, all of the kids then hopped on board and wanted

00:04:40that restaurant instead of just doing Taco drive through. It's probably hard. It's hard for her

00:04:46then to be the only person when everyone else wants the other thing. But then that's where I

00:04:49as the husband should be saying, No, she needs this. Let's do this.

00:04:54Okay, sorry, I'm a little confused, because I thought it was just a snack. So you could

00:04:58eat at home. So what's the other restaurant?

00:05:05It doesn't matter what the restaurant is, I don't understand. So if you know,

00:05:09if the wife is just like, I need something to eat. Because I'm crashing here. And you know,

00:05:14then we'll we'll have a proper meal at home. Where does the other restaurant thing come into it?

00:05:19Because that's not what she wants, right? She wants like a snack at Taco Bell, right?

00:05:23Yep. And so yeah, we're gonna eat at home. So I think then that the idea of a different

00:05:29restaurant all of us eating together sounded better. I think

00:05:34let me just say just make sure I understand. So sounded better to who?

00:05:39To me.

00:05:40Now, was it and then the party that sorry, was it partly that you wanted

00:05:44your wife to have a better experience by having a proper dinner in a restaurant with the family?

00:05:52No, I think it was to have like a meal together as a family in the restaurant versus just my

00:05:59wife picking up something. And that's probably where the problem. She wanted just a quick

00:06:04nap. I was thinking about as more of a family meal. But that directly opposes what then what

00:06:10she wants, essentially. Well,

00:06:14what's wrong with a quick snack, and then you go for a meal, I'm sort of trying to figure out

00:06:18where the disagreements came from here. So your wife wants a quick snack,

00:06:23and you want to eat at a restaurant. So she grabs a quick snack,

00:06:25and then you go to a restaurant. Is it something like that?

00:06:31That could have been a good solution.

00:06:34I mean, that is, you know, because there's this typical thing. And I remember, of course,

00:06:38when my wife was pregnant, you know, like, I want dill picket flavored potato chips and some

00:06:44ice cream. And it's like, okay, I don't know what weird alchemy is going on down

00:06:48to that little furnace of a belly there. Or that not so little furnace of a belly.

00:06:53But you know, you just you run over hell's half-acre to get what your wife wants,

00:06:56right? Particularly when she's pregnant, right?

00:07:00Well, I think I just spent most of the last six years pregnant. So it doesn't really seem like

00:07:05anything special.

00:07:07And we've, I don't know what was mentioned, but we have four kids, six and under,

00:07:13and then the fifth on the way, there'll be under seven. So five under seven.

00:07:18So it's just like a constant baby.

00:07:23She's kind of a baby factory. So you get her a snack.

00:07:26I almost said that. Yes, I almost said that.

00:07:27So you get her a snack. She's a conveyor belt. My gosh, get her a snack.

00:07:34Okay, so I'm trying to figure out. So the communication thing is, I need a snack.

00:07:39And then you transform that into, let's all sit down for a meal at a restaurant.

00:07:44And then she ends up not getting any food because the restaurant is going to take,

00:07:47is it like, is it like one of these places? Like, we might be able to seat you in 45 minutes

00:07:50kind of thing?

00:07:52No, it was like, it was probably took 15 extra minutes to get food than if we had gone to the

00:08:00other place, but it's also like a drive-through versus sitting in a really crowded space.

00:08:07And I, when I like, I'm really, really hungry, I get anxious around a lot of people.

00:08:13And it was, why'd you get anxious around people when you're hungry?

00:08:16Did you come from a predatory family or?

00:08:20Well, I was going to go there a little bit earlier. I think she does have a history of

00:08:27not having her voice heard in her family growing up. Right. You would agree with that?

00:08:33Well, yeah, I was much more introverted and all of them were just

00:08:36super wanted to do things all the time, go places all the time.

00:08:42Okay. So you as the husband know that your wife has an issue with her voice not being heard.

00:08:47Yes. And I need to factor that in.

00:08:50Well, how long have you guys been together?

00:08:52Eight years. Yeah.

00:08:56And over that eight year period, my friend,

00:08:59when did you find out that your wife had a history of not being listened to?

00:09:05When was that? Like year two, three? What would you say?

00:09:11Yeah, maybe you're, I don't know.

00:09:12It was a couple of years in, but not a lot.

00:09:15So you guys were together for a couple of years before you found out about basic childhood stuff?

00:09:22You've been listening to my show for eight years. How could you miss the childhood stuff?

00:09:29We did talk about a lot of childhood stuff, but I don't think I realized the voice not being heard

00:09:35saying as much at that point in time.

00:09:39Sorry, when did you notice conflict over the wife's voice not being heard?

00:09:44Fairly early, I guess. But I don't think we realized that that was why.

00:09:49We've learned a lot about both of our childhoods and how that's been factoring into our marriage

00:09:58over the past two years, maybe.

00:10:00Yeah, because it's a funny thing. And it's complicated. So, I mean, I can understand,

00:10:05I'm sort of joking with this error, right? But I can understand why it's a challenge, right? So

00:10:10we want to be sensitive to our partner's deficiencies, like what happened to them

00:10:15in childhood, the sort of old pain and old wounds. We want to be sensitive to that stuff.

00:10:20But at the same time, we don't want to be dictated to and dominated by it.

00:10:26And that's a tightrope. That is a big challenge. And there's no obvious answer. It's sort of like

00:10:32a gut instinct. Because if it's like, well, you know, my wife was never listened to,

00:10:37so I've always got to listen to her and accommodate her, then that goes from a deficiency of power as

00:10:42a child to an excess of power as a partner. And so it is a challenging thing to navigate

00:10:51or to balance, if that makes sense. Yeah. And I think with the baby factory,

00:10:58as we were discussing, I think I've just felt most of our marriage has just been trying to serve her

00:11:08because she needs it, rightly so, it should be. But then I feel selfish at times, like

00:11:16wanting to get my way, I guess. Serve her because of the pregnancies?

00:11:21Yeah, like help her. I'm sorry, I'm a little confused here. Whose sperm is it?

00:11:30Is it a trip on the water or did she get in a swimming pool?

00:11:34I'm not sure.

00:11:36So what do you mean, help her? You guys have chosen to make these babies together.

00:11:40You're one flesh. You can't help your wife.

00:11:42Yes.

00:11:44Right?

00:11:45Right. It's helping me, yes.

00:11:46Well, you're helping the family. You're helping the plan that you both have signed up for,

00:11:50which is to have a lot of kids, right?

00:11:53Yes, yes. We both want that, yes.

00:11:55Okay, so what do you mean by help her? It seems like there's a distance, like you feel like

00:12:01somehow you're a servant to a decision that you both made.

00:12:06Yeah, I think that's how I spent the first, I don't know how many years of our marriage,

00:12:12I think, and slowly, partially, a little bit getting over that maybe, but yeah.

00:12:22Were you both on board with this many kids?

00:12:26Yes.

00:12:27Not as quickly as they came. Maybe we didn't realize how quickly they would come.

00:12:34Sorry, you didn't realize how quickly women could get pregnant.

00:12:41Did I hear something about an Irish background there?

00:12:45You can't share a cup of coffee with Irish women.

00:12:49Yeah.

00:12:50I didn't know about that, actually.

00:12:53There's a reason why so many people had to flee when the

00:12:56price of potatoes went up five pennies. Anyway.

00:13:04And the other piece of it is I got chronically ill the week before our wedding,

00:13:10and it lasted the first two years of our marriage.

00:13:13Oh gosh, what happened?

00:13:14I, we didn't actually know what it was until a year and a half into it.

00:13:23It turned out to be chronic mono or Epstein-Barr virus.

00:13:31And it was seven doctors before they could figure out what in the world was wrong with me,

00:13:35and they kept just telling me, oh, it's just because you're like newly married,

00:13:38or because you moved, or because you just had a child.

00:13:40Oh yeah, heaven forbid you go to socialist doctors with anything complicated.

00:13:46They don't want to have anything to do with you.

00:13:48Strep throat, easy antibiotics, they're good.

00:13:51But anything like I have an odd pain in my stomach,

00:13:53they're just like, yeah, it's anxiety, here's some pills, go away, right?

00:13:58Okay.

00:13:59So what was the solution to this Epstein-Barr?

00:14:05Well, they told me that there was really nothing they could do about it, because it was viral,

00:14:09and antivirals don't often work on this specific one when it's chronic.

00:14:18So I had a friend who told me all about a specific natural modality to try.

00:14:25So I went like full force into that, and it worked.

00:14:28And what is the natural modality?

00:14:31High dose vitamin C.

00:14:32Wow.

00:14:34I was literally buying it by the pound.

00:14:36It was a lot.

00:14:38Wow.

00:14:39But it works.

00:14:40Yeah, most people can take like 10 to 15 grams before you get a very small movement.

00:14:45I was taking 100 grams at a time.

00:14:48Holy crap.

00:14:50You're like mainlining in Orange Tree Grove.

00:14:53So, and what were the symptoms before?

00:14:56Do you know how you got it?

00:14:57And what were the symptoms before and how quickly did they lift?

00:15:02It like hit me the week before our wedding.

00:15:05It was like that whole week.

00:15:06I was just like, what is wrong with me?

00:15:08I just felt so exhausted and dragging.

00:15:14And then it just, yeah, it kind of hit all at once.

00:15:17Just suddenly, I woke up and I was exhausted all the time and just slept.

00:15:24We got married in like the spring.

00:15:25And then that summer, I actually had to quit my job because I couldn't do it.

00:15:30I was too tired.

00:15:31And my husband would come home from work and he'd be like, so what'd you do today?

00:15:34And I'm like, I was too tired to go on my phone.

00:15:36So, I just laid here and stared at the ceiling.

00:15:39Wow.

00:15:40Now, I'm not an expert on any of this.

00:15:44So, forgive me for my lack of knowledge.

00:15:47Is it something that they described to you as like, this matches this cluster of symptoms?

00:15:55Or is it that they can actually see the viruses squiggling around in a microscope or something?

00:16:01Um, I eventually, the seventh doctor I went to did a titer test for all sorts of

00:16:07viruses and other things.

00:16:10And my Epstein-Barr virus titers were like, through the roots.

00:16:15Okay.

00:16:16It said anything over like 30 was positive for the virus and mine was over 800.

00:16:21Okay.

00:16:22Okay.

00:16:22Which is why you went on the very high dose vitamin C.

00:16:25Okay.

00:16:26Yes.

00:16:26And that was a couple of years?

00:16:28Yeah, that was the first two years of our marriage.

00:16:31I didn't know what was wrong with me until a year and a half into it.

00:16:35And then once I knew what it was, and I could start like, dealing with it,

00:16:39knowing what I was fighting, it was like six more months.

00:16:42Oh, so you get back to normal?

00:16:45Yes.

00:16:46Wow.

00:16:46We have one kid through that and then she was pregnant with a second,

00:16:48then I guess as you were recovering.

00:16:50So, it probably wore her immune system down too, I would imagine.

00:16:55Sorry, she's chronically viral infected and you had two kids?

00:17:02Right, I think?

00:17:03Yes, it was stupid.

00:17:06Well, no, I mean, you're obviously very intelligent people, so I don't,

00:17:10I'm not sure I quite follow the logic here.

00:17:16You know, I'm not criticizing you for having kids, I think that's wonderful.

00:17:19I'm just, you know, if she can't get out of bed

00:17:22and she doesn't know what's wrong, like, you don't know what's wrong with you,

00:17:24and you don't know if there's going to be a cure and all the doctors are saying

00:17:27whatever is in your head or whatever they're saying,

00:17:29how does that work with having a kid before the health issue is resolved?

00:17:33Or two, really.

00:17:34Well, it didn't work very well, but we made it, kind of.

00:17:41Like, I was able to...

00:17:42No, but what if you hadn't found a cure, right?

00:17:48I mean, you're kind of locked out, what's it, doctor number three?

00:17:50Doctor number seven, right?

00:17:54Yeah, yeah.

00:17:55So I'm trying to sort of follow the reasoning here.

00:17:59I know this sounds all kinds of critical, I don't mean it that way, I'm a little surprised.

00:18:03I think it was partly religious.

00:18:06Okay.

00:18:07Where neither of us were entirely comfortable with, like, hormonal birth control.

00:18:11Right.

00:18:12But then, due to, I'm pretty sure that he had, like, a botched circumcision or something

00:18:19when he was a baby.

00:18:21So barrier, the standard condoms, like, don't work.

00:18:29And so we were doing, like, the diaphragm, and that's not 100% effective.

00:18:37So that's how that happened.

00:18:40Okay, so, sorry, go ahead.

00:18:43We would take measures, but they would reduce probabilities, but we found out that...

00:18:48Increasing by 90% is not 100%.

00:18:51And ours always seemed to be, like, the 1% chance.

00:18:54Yeah, the math checks out.

00:18:55Yeah, the math checks out.

00:18:56Yeah.

00:18:57We would also, like, abstain on days close to ovulation, and that didn't seem to matter

00:19:02either.

00:19:02Right, right.

00:19:03Get the perma eggs, right?

00:19:05Okay.

00:19:06It appears so.

00:19:07Right.

00:19:08Well, I mean, obviously, it's thrilling to have that many kids, and I envy that, so good

00:19:12for you.

00:19:14So when you first met, what were the virtues or values that drew you to each other?

00:19:23We both lived in or near D.C.

00:19:30The city that we lived near just didn't have a lot of Christians and conservative Christians.

00:19:38Yeah, you could say that.

00:19:39So we were trying to find like-minded believers and just not able to find that, so

00:19:50actually found each other on a very unique religious dating site.

00:19:57Yeah, and he was from the state next to mine.

00:20:01Okay, and then as we began getting to know each other, we realized we actually share

00:20:06a lot in common, belief-wise.

00:20:08We, of course, enjoyed each other's company, both intellectual conversations, all that stuff.

00:20:16I would joke in the past that he was the only guy in the entire state

00:20:19that fit my religious requirements.

00:20:24Right, okay.

00:20:26Mine, too, for the most part, because I would most have to compromise probably on something.

00:20:31I wasn't able to find someone that actually believed all the things.

00:20:35Okay, got it, got it.

00:20:37And your cultural backgrounds, are they similar?

00:20:41Kind of, but not really.

00:20:44Ambiguous, I like it.

00:20:48We both grew up conservative Christian, but in very different ways.

00:20:55Go on.

00:20:57Well, he comes from Dutch ancestry, and they're very rules-oriented,

00:21:07and you do things because that's how you do them.

00:21:09Or tradition, or yeah.

00:21:11Yeah.

00:21:12Just don't question.

00:21:13And you went to the same church your entire childhood, like super stability kind of thing.

00:21:21And then my family was not that way, but also conservative Christian in a lot of ways.

00:21:31But they hopped from church to church all the time because they were looking for

00:21:37something more pure, I guess.

00:21:40And so, yeah, there wasn't much stability there.

00:21:43And they had really strong beliefs, but they didn't have a lot of faith.

00:21:51And just, I feel like I'm in soup.

00:21:54I don't know.

00:21:55Well, yeah, I think different style.

00:21:59Yeah.

00:22:02My family was a lot more reserved.

00:22:03Hers was a lot more just Irish, Italian, right?

00:22:06Boisterous and speak your mind a little bit as well.

00:22:11Yeah, like my family.

00:22:12You said Irish and Italian?

00:22:14Yes.

00:22:14Two Catholic bastions of fertility?

00:22:17Got it.

00:22:17Okay, just checking.

00:22:19Just checking.

00:22:20All right.

00:22:21That was just dad's side.

00:22:23The other side was Scandinavian.

00:22:26Okay.

00:22:29But they were all...

00:22:29Drunken, hot-blooded, and emotionally distant.

00:22:31Okay, got it.

00:22:33All right.

00:22:34Actually describes it quite well.

00:22:36Yeah, the stereotypes exist for a reason.

00:22:38I'm not saying you judge everyone that way, but it's not an inaccurate often when you zoom out,

00:22:43right?

00:22:44Beliefs, very similar growing up even, but styles, behaviors.

00:22:51And reasoning.

00:22:51Reasoning.

00:22:53Had a lot of reasons for why they would do things.

00:22:56Right.

00:22:58That's the way you did it.

00:22:59That's the way we were taught.

00:23:00It makes sense to me.

00:23:01Don't question it kind of thing.

00:23:03Right.

00:23:03So a conservatism to the point of almost rigidity, right?

00:23:07Yes.

00:23:07Right.

00:23:08Okay.

00:23:09And then mine was, if that rule doesn't make sense, why in the world would we follow it?

00:23:14Right.

00:23:15Okay.

00:23:15Now, of course, all couples have their disagreements, and I'm sure that it started

00:23:19at some point where you had disagreements.

00:23:22So had you discussed much, I guess, before or after marriage, how you were going to resolve

00:23:28disagreements?

00:23:29What was going to be the process or the procedure to resolve disagreements?

00:23:35No.

00:23:36We were committed, like, divorce was not an option, but I don't think we ever discussed,

00:23:40like...

00:23:42Right?

00:23:43I don't think so.

00:23:47I think we talked about, what do we do if we disagree?

00:23:49And then it was like, well, we'll try to come to an agreement together.

00:23:54And then if we can't, then I just go with whatever he decides.

00:23:59Okay.

00:24:00So can you remember an early disagreement where you had to try and bring that rather

00:24:05abstract theory into practical use?

00:24:07Yeah.

00:24:08So the first one had to do with my sister, right?

00:24:10I think that'd be the first.

00:24:11Yeah.

00:24:13So my younger sister and I were very close growing up, and then through college.

00:24:23And then when...

00:24:27And learning since then, I guess, I think I served as kind of like a substitute.

00:24:33We had a father, but he wasn't...

00:24:37He was too wishy-washy to provide the emotional support for her.

00:24:44So I think I served...

00:24:46I realize now that I served as like a substitute father for her, not realizing at the time,

00:24:51and provide a lot of emotional support for her, I think.

00:24:55So then when she met...

00:24:58Sorry.

00:24:59When she met my wife.

00:25:00Wow.

00:25:01Then I think there was some...

00:25:08Jealousy is the right word, but she felt threatened.

00:25:14I'm sorry, what's the age difference between you and your sister?

00:25:19One and a half years, one to nine months.

00:25:22That's a narrow age gap to be a father figure.

00:25:27Yeah.

00:25:30Okay.

00:25:31I just bookmarked that in my brain, but sorry.

00:25:33So you felt that when you met your wife, your sister got jealous?

00:25:38Yeah, and threatened almost that I was taking her...

00:25:48I was then not able to be there for her when she was going through her own

00:25:52hard, very hard times, hard relationships and such.

00:25:55And how old were you when you met your wife?

00:25:5826.

00:26:01Okay, so she was like 24 and change or something like that, right?

00:26:04Yeah.

00:26:05So you had tried to raise her, and because you were also a kid,

00:26:11you hadn't done a super great job, right?

00:26:13Because she wasn't independent in her mid-twenties.

00:26:17Yeah.

00:26:18Now, I mean, obviously you're a kid, right?

00:26:19So kids can't raise kids, right?

00:26:22Otherwise we wouldn't have parents, right?

00:26:23So...

00:26:24Yeah.

00:26:25So...

00:26:27Was she aware that your pretend fatherhood or your pseudo-fatherhood hadn't been what

00:26:33she needed?

00:26:33Did she know that?

00:26:34Did she get any therapy or do self-work and say, okay, well, I need to figure out what

00:26:38I was missing that obviously my brother tried to provide, but couldn't do a great job because

00:26:41he's a kid.

00:26:42So I need to backfill that somehow.

00:26:45No.

00:26:47I don't know if becoming a therapist counts.

00:26:49Yeah, she's a therapist social worker now.

00:26:52Really?

00:26:53Okay.

00:26:55But she wasn't, I guess, back then, right?

00:26:58Um, yeah, she was.

00:27:01And what kind of relationship issues was she dealing with?

00:27:08Um, had a 10-year relationship with a guy, was waiting for her or for him to

00:27:17commit, essentially, and never happened.

00:27:22Oh, okay.

00:27:27Sorry, I thought the story was going to go a little longer than that.

00:27:29All right.

00:27:30Okay.

00:27:31He never committed and she was kind of tortured by that?

00:27:35Yeah.

00:27:35And yet felt the need to continue.

00:27:40Well, that's a fallacy of sunk costs, right?

00:27:42It's tough to walk if you wait for the bus for three days, right?

00:27:46So, okay.

00:27:47Yeah.

00:27:48While we were dating, she decided to move multiple states away to where he was

00:27:58to try to like salvage it.

00:28:01And did she, what advice did she get from family and friends regarding this guy?

00:28:08Yeah, early.

00:28:10So we liked him the first year.

00:28:12But then after, after that, then, um, myself and my entire family did not like him and

00:28:19gave that feedback to her concerns, I guess, uh, with, um, turning over various things, but.

00:28:28So basically you said, he's not the guy.

00:28:30It's not going to work.

00:28:31You're wasting your time.

00:28:32And she didn't listen.

00:28:33Correct.

00:28:34Okay.

00:28:35And this kind of went on.

00:28:36Yeah.

00:28:36And then she didn't want to hear it anymore.

00:28:38So then we kind of just stopped giving that feedback.

00:28:41And what was it that finally blew the scheme apart?

00:28:48Blew the scheme apart?

00:28:49Or what do you mean?

00:28:49Like broke up?

00:28:50Sorry.

00:28:50Being a bit abstract there.

00:28:51Sorry.

00:28:52Go ahead.

00:28:54Like what, what ended there?

00:28:56Oh, oh, um, well, she found out that he got engaged to someone else randomly.

00:29:04What?

00:29:0610 years in.

00:29:07What have I heard?

00:29:09He met some girl and then three months later they were engaged and then they were married.

00:29:15Well.

00:29:15After 10 years with her kind of concurrently.

00:29:18Yeah.

00:29:19I mean, I've been down that road.

00:29:21I was in a relationship for a good chunk of my twenties, but, uh, you know, I broke off

00:29:26and then sometime later I met my wife and we got married within, uh, 11 months.

00:29:31Okay.

00:29:31So I get that.

00:29:32So how did she handle this, uh, breakup?

00:29:40Not well, um, it was just an emotional wreck.

00:29:48And so this was the first, yeah, roughly first year of.

00:29:52Well, the second year, the salvaging attempt was the first date we are dating while we

00:29:57were dating and then our, our first year of marriage.

00:30:00And then it was like the second year, I think is when it had blown up.

00:30:04Yeah.

00:30:04So then there would be frequent calls, semi-frequent calls.

00:30:08I don't know how frequent, um, but where she was distressed, of course, and then I would

00:30:14try to be there for her, but then it began to, that was also the same time that my wife

00:30:18was going through her, uh, mono and having.

00:30:22And pregnancy and you're trying to adjust to marriage and illness and babies.

00:30:26And yeah, yeah.

00:30:27That's a lot.

00:30:28Yeah.

00:30:28All this stuff.

00:30:29So, um, you can see kind of how both sides began to feel.

00:30:34So my sister thought my wife should be more caring and like care about her problem, not

00:30:41realizing and appreciating the fact that we are now husband, wife, and that takes precedent.

00:30:47Um, and then her elements on all that stuff too.

00:30:49But then I think my wife then started to feel like I was, my sister was coming in between

00:30:55us and I felt caught in the middle.

00:30:58Sorry, but she was, wasn't she?

00:31:00I mean, she was taking a lot of time, energy, and resources from you when you're trying

00:31:04to adjust to a new wife, a new kid, new illness that you don't even know when it's going to

00:31:08end or if, right?

00:31:10Yep.

00:31:10So I did not handle that well the first couple of years because yeah, partially due to our,

00:31:16the closeness with my sister, it was hard to see her go through what she was going through.

00:31:20Then I was also hard to see my wife.

00:31:22Sorry, I'm trying, I'm still trying to understand the closeness with your sister.

00:31:25It sounds a little claustrophobic to me.

00:31:27I don't know.

00:31:27That's not close.

00:31:29That's kind of codependent, right?

00:31:30Which is, yeah, because I'm trying, I'm trying to figure out the whole, okay.

00:31:36When did the family first say, this is not the guy for you.

00:31:39Probably not a good idea.

00:31:44I think it was after either six months or a year.

00:31:48Okay.

00:31:48So basically she went on for almost a decade, nine years or nine years plus not listening

00:31:54to her family saying, I got this.

00:31:56You're all wrong.

00:31:57I'm right.

00:31:58He is the guy for me.

00:32:00Yeah.

00:32:01So I'm trying to figure out why you'd have a shred of sympathy for somebody who ignored

00:32:09your advice, did the wrong thing, kind of insulted you by saying you were totally wrong

00:32:13and maybe you just don't want her to be happy or something like that, and then waits a decade

00:32:18of her life.

00:32:21Yeah.

00:32:21I mean, this is literally like saying, you know, you really shouldn't be part of that

00:32:25criminal gang.

00:32:26Oh no, that criminal gang is really, really bad.

00:32:28No, you're wrong, man.

00:32:29That's criminal.

00:32:29It's not a criminal gang.

00:32:30And then they go to jail for five years.

00:32:33They come out and then they're crying about how you got to help them.

00:32:37Yeah.

00:32:39So that's a dynamic that's interesting.

00:32:41And I think I know that this sounds a bit like we're off the beaten track, but I think

00:32:45this fits into Taco Bell.

00:32:48I know this sounds odd, but I think it does.

00:32:51Yeah.

00:32:51So your sister calls up and she's like, oh, he broke up with me.

00:33:00He's getting married to someone else, right?

00:33:03And what was your response or reaction to all of this?

00:33:10I think I'm trying to remember now.

00:33:15It was a huge amount of sympathy, because otherwise you wouldn't have kept calling,

00:33:19right?

00:33:19Yeah, and I wanted to say, you always want to say, I told you so, but I didn't say that.

00:33:27And sorry, why not?

00:33:29Because you did.

00:33:32Did what?

00:33:33Well, you did tell her so for nine plus years.

00:33:36Oh, yes, yes.

00:33:37And so what's wrong with saying, I told you so?

00:33:40I mean, because I know people have this weird reaction of, oh, I don't want to just say,

00:33:43I told you so.

00:33:44And it's like, well, why not?

00:33:45It's important, because you've got to remind the person that you told them so.

00:33:49You had credibility and you were right.

00:33:50Otherwise, they just won't listen next time.

00:33:53I finally, I told her that I think it was, I forget how long after, six months, I don't

00:34:03know, sometime after, within the first year, and I could barely get the words out of my

00:34:09mouth.

00:34:09And she stopped me and said, I know, I know, don't say.

00:34:14And that's just kind of the dynamic, I guess.

00:34:16And from there, our relationship kind of, I don't know, lessened.

00:34:26Deteriorated, right?

00:34:28Yeah.

00:34:29Of course it did.

00:34:32And do you know why?

00:34:35Well, and it should have happened much sooner, to your point.

00:34:38No.

00:34:39Why did your relationship with your sister deteriorate after the breakup?

00:34:43Because I tried to put, tried to speak truth, like, be honest, and then she didn't want

00:34:52to hear it.

00:34:55That's a nice way of saying you lied.

00:34:59Right?

00:35:00You lied.

00:35:00You had thoughts and feelings about this.

00:35:03I assume some exasperation, some impatience, some, like, and she probably blamed him,

00:35:07didn't she?

00:35:11Yeah.

00:35:11Well, that's retarded.

00:35:13I mean, it's understandable.

00:35:14People do that all the time.

00:35:16But it's wrong.

00:35:17She chose to be in the relationship.

00:35:19She chose to ignore the advice of the people who cared about her the most.

00:35:23I mean, you may have heard this little Bible saying, you reap what you sow, right?

00:35:27Yeah.

00:35:28So, I'm sure you weren't just like, oh, it's just tragic how this complete terrible thing

00:35:36happened out of nowhere.

00:35:37There must have been some impatience.

00:35:44I think I was always known, and I used to have endless patience, too much, maybe.

00:35:52No, you didn't have endless patience.

00:35:54You lied.

00:35:55Come on.

00:35:55Thou shalt not bear false witness.

00:35:57What does that mean?

00:35:58That means in matters that are important, I mean, in general, we should tell the truth,

00:36:01but certainly in matters that are important for people who care about us, we should tell

00:36:06important for a person's moral development, we should tell the truth, right?

00:36:11Yes.

00:36:13So, you had a moral lesson to impart to your sister, right?

00:36:18Yes.

00:36:19And you didn't, because she said, no, no, no, don't tell me.

00:36:23I mean, there's no asterisk on that commandment.

00:36:25Thou shalt not bear false witness, unless it's your sister and she doesn't want you to.

00:36:29What did you want to say to your sister if she had listened and you could speak without

00:36:39blowback or repercussions?

00:36:40What did you want to say to your sister?

00:36:44That I told her so, and I wish she would have listened.

00:36:52Okay, that's like 0.01% of what you want to say to your sister about this 10-year disaster.

00:36:59What else?

00:37:12Maybe we can turn to your wife.

00:37:14She might have a few words about this.

00:37:15Hmm, um, I just.

00:37:28Because it cost you, right?

00:37:29It cost you that she's having these meltdowns while you're pregnant and you guys are trying

00:37:33to navigate.

00:37:34I mean, was this sister, was she aware that she was imposing on a new marriage where there

00:37:40were babies and sickness?

00:37:45Somewhat, but she just didn't care.

00:37:49Right.

00:37:50So she's selfish.

00:37:52Yeah, for sure.

00:37:53Okay, well, that's why he didn't marry her.

00:37:59Probably true.

00:38:00So, so she, she, she caused the not marrying and then she's crying victim.

00:38:09She chose the guy.

00:38:10Okay, has anyone ever talked to her about her selfishness?

00:38:16And I'm, look, I'm not saying all she is is selfish.

00:38:18I'm just saying in this particular area.

00:38:25I mean, did you ever, any point over the year, you got a sick wife, you've got a pregnant

00:38:29wife, you're trying to navigate married life.

00:38:31And it's terrifying to have that kind of undiagnosed medical ailment, right?

00:38:36That's, that's terrifying because you don't know what the heck is going on.

00:38:39You don't know how on earth it might be solved or whether.

00:38:43And at some point, don't you say to your sister, hello, there's somebody else in the

00:38:48world here called me.

00:38:50How about you ask me about how I'm doing?

00:38:52You know, it doesn't have to be all the time, but once in a while might be a good start.

00:38:57And maybe this is why the guy didn't want to marry you because you're kind of a self

00:39:01absorbed and selfish.

00:39:02It's all I mean, I, you don't ask me anything about how my life is going.

00:39:07That was a, yeah, I, I had some calls with her where she was, she just kept going on

00:39:19and on and I stopped her at some point.

00:39:21Just, I can't do this anymore.

00:39:26Okay.

00:39:26But that is saying that it's your issue or problem to some degree, rather than you're

00:39:31kind of a black hole of attention that never gets filled and it's draining me dry, you

00:39:35vampire.

00:39:36Sorry, I'm not saying you'd say it like that, but something like that.

00:39:38Yeah, I get your point.

00:39:41Yeah.

00:39:41So why are you withholding moral correction from your sister?

00:39:44You say you're close.

00:39:45Obviously you care about her.

00:39:46You love her.

00:39:47Why are you withholding honesty and moral correction from her?

00:39:50We got to look out for each other, right?

00:39:51We all have our blind spots.

00:39:54Yeah, because I mean, I've, I mean, it's not my sister, so I'm not in the same situation,

00:39:59but I've certainly had friends who absolutely are dating the wrong girl.

00:40:02They're absolutely dating the wrong girl.

00:40:04I say my case, and if they, and I say, listen, obviously I can't tell you what to do.

00:40:09Here's the red flags I see, and they go on like a Chinese communist parade.

00:40:12So here are all the red flags I see.

00:40:14You are obviously perfectly free to do whatever you want, date whoever you want.

00:40:17I'm just telling you, when it ends, I don't want to hear a thing.

00:40:23It will end, and it'll end badly.

00:40:25I know that.

00:40:26I don't, I'm no, like I, the price of you not listening to my good advice is I don't

00:40:32want to hear about it when it ends.

00:40:33Now, if I'm totally wrong, which I could be, then I'll be the first one to chip in

00:40:37for your wedding, and I'll give you a great speech, and I'll apologize publicly for doubting

00:40:40it.

00:40:41That'll be my punishment, I suppose, being publicly admitting I was wrong.

00:40:45But if it ends, no sympathy.

00:40:51Yeah.

00:40:52I think having tried to do that one time to our six months in or whatever it was in a

00:40:57year, up to a year, and then continuing to not listen, I think I just lost the will to

00:41:10be doing that more.

00:41:12That's not very Christian of you, my friend.

00:41:15Because, you know, I'm not going to lecture you guys on Christianity, the last thing you'd

00:41:20want from me, but I will say that whether it's Christianity or philosophy, withholding

00:41:25moral correction from those we love is an act of sabotage, and it's actually quite selfish

00:41:30on your part.

00:41:32Because y'all should have had a significant intervention, I have no idea how this crap

00:41:37lasted for a decade with a family around her who claims to care about her.

00:41:42Why on earth didn't somebody sit down with the two of them and say, okay, it's been 18

00:41:47months, or 16 months, or 14 months, or wherever, where is this going, what is happening?

00:41:52This woman needs her 20s, if she wants to have kids, she can't just waste all of these

00:41:57years, what is happening, what is going on?

00:42:00I mean, I don't quite understand the family structure here, where this woman, through

00:42:05whatever weird addiction she's got, loses a decade of her most precious fertile years.

00:42:11I'm sorry, just having trouble understanding why the family wouldn't do something about

00:42:15this.

00:42:17Yeah, I think, so my dad was kind of non-existent with the relationship, which feeds a little

00:42:23bit why I think I-

00:42:24But you know that!

00:42:25You told me that at the very beginning, that's why you had to parent your sister, so why

00:42:28didn't you?

00:42:30Well, I don't think I fully realized what I was- I knew I had a close relationship with

00:42:36her, or I thought I did, I should say, but I didn't realize what the relationship was

00:42:42at the time.

00:42:42It was only afterwards, I think, that I realized-

00:42:45Sorry, which relationship?

00:42:46It was because-

00:42:47Your sister?

00:42:48Yeah, it'd be like semi-fathering, if you want to call it that.

00:42:54Okay, that's fine, but in your 20s, you knew that she was wasting year after year with

00:42:59this guy, so why did that go on?

00:43:03There were multiple times where I tried to tell her-

00:43:07No, him, him.

00:43:09There's no point telling her, she's the addict, right?

00:43:12Yeah.

00:43:13So, you sit down with him.

00:43:14Say, listen, man-to-man, come on, like, stop it.

00:43:17Like, marry her or leave.

00:43:21Never saw much of him.

00:43:22That was part of the problem, too.

00:43:25In different states for 9 out of 10 years, but-

00:43:29Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, please, don't do that.

00:43:33Don't embarrass us all by saying there was a distance problem when you and I are talking

00:43:37across a country and talking about some serious and deep things, right?

00:43:44And also, you would fly out if you care about her, right?

00:43:50Yeah, I mean, yeah.

00:43:53Because she was making terrible decisions for 10 years.

00:43:57Now, how many daughters do you have?

00:44:01Two.

00:44:01Okay, so you know why I'm talking to you about this, right?

00:44:03It's not much to do with your sister, because that's all in the past.

00:44:08Yeah.

00:44:08You're a father.

00:44:10Now, and as a father to a daughter myself, you have to watch out for bad guys.

00:44:18And this guy was a bad guy.

00:44:20You don't burn up 10 years of a woman's young life and then go marry someone else right

00:44:24away.

00:44:25Like, that's just being a total asterisk, question mark, hashtag asterisk guy, right?

00:44:32Yeah.

00:44:32So how did he get away with it?

00:44:35He only did it because he knew the family wasn't going to lift a finger.

00:44:38And sort it out.

00:44:40Yeah.

00:44:43And I've learned, um, so my wife's father, my father-in-law took a much more active

00:44:50approach to our dating than my dad did to his daughter.

00:44:56You know, I keep trying to give you some responsibility and who do you turn to?

00:44:59This is the third time now.

00:45:04Who do you turn to?

00:45:05Whenever I say, right?

00:45:07You or the family as a whole, right?

00:45:09There's lots of people in the family, lots of males, aunts, uncles, brothers, whoever,

00:45:12right?

00:45:12Lots of males.

00:45:12Who do you turn to?

00:45:16Who do you hold up as a human shield?

00:45:23I'm sorry?

00:45:25Not sure what you're saying.

00:45:26Well, I keep saying, right?

00:45:28Why didn't you do this?

00:45:29And you say, well, my father was passive.

00:45:30And I say, well, why, why did my family deal with this?

00:45:34And you say, well, my father didn't take, like, I'm not talking about your dad.

00:45:37And you already know this about your dad, that he's passive.

00:45:39So you can't blame passivity on your dad, who you already know is passive, because that's

00:45:43a bad thing and you've already identified it.

00:45:51If you know your dad's passive, then you know you have to be more active, right?

00:45:57Yeah.

00:45:59So you can't blame your passivity on your dad when the first thing you told me about

00:46:03your dad was that he was passive and absent, and you had to raise your sister.

00:46:08So you already know that about your dad.

00:46:13Yeah, I was.

00:46:14I can't say there's no lifeguard, but I expect the lifeguard to save the drowning kid.

00:46:22I can't say, well, there's no lifeguard at the beach, but I didn't go save the kid because,

00:46:26hey, there's no lifeguard at the beach.

00:46:28It's like, well, if you know there's no lifeguard at the beach, then go in and save the kid.

00:46:30So if your dad's passive, that means it's up to you.

00:46:38Yeah.

00:46:40Or the other males, right?

00:46:41I don't know if you're the oldest.

00:46:42I don't know where you are in the birth order, but or the other males.

00:46:45How many brothers does she have?

00:46:47Just me.

00:46:48Well, one other one.

00:46:49He's much younger, and yeah.

00:46:53I've learned.

00:46:55What I was trying to say is I've learned since then, but I should have known then.

00:47:01Um, my eyes have been opened.

00:47:04What I should have done.

00:47:07And so when did you get that revelation?

00:47:13Well, like I was saying, my father-in-law took a much more active approach to our relationship.

00:47:20And that was the first time I've seen that.

00:47:23And I want to model somewhat of that to my daughters.

00:47:31Right.

00:47:32And what's your relationship like with your sister now?

00:47:40Um, mostly surface level.

00:47:45And have you ever apologized to her?

00:47:54I don't think so, no.

00:47:57I mean, do you regret not being more or even remotely firm or

00:48:03decisive with regards to her losing a decade of her life?

00:48:07Yeah.

00:48:08Because you all just let it happen, right?

00:48:09Now, again, she's an adult.

00:48:11I get all of that.

00:48:11But, you know, we all have our weaknesses.

00:48:13And clearly she was addicted to this guy in some manner.

00:48:15And now, do you know why you didn't do it?

00:48:18And saying that your father is passive doesn't answer anything.

00:48:21Because you saw your father's passivity.

00:48:23You already backfilled it by trying to half-raise your sister.

00:48:26So you already know about the passivity.

00:48:27So why didn't the family act to save her from herself?

00:48:44It's probably fear of losing the relationship, maybe, with her.

00:48:50Right.

00:48:50Because she's volatile.

00:48:51And if you try to stand up, like if you went to talk to this guy,

00:48:54and he broke up with her, she'd blow up at you, right?

00:48:57Okay.

00:48:59So?

00:49:02I mean, you know, there's a guy who got literally nailed to a cross to do the right thing.

00:49:06Nobody's asking you to do that.

00:49:07Just, you know, endure your sister's ill temper until her head clears, right?

00:49:14Yeah.

00:49:15Yeah.

00:49:16So in the family, that level of love where you can put up with a negative in order to

00:49:24achieve a positive.

00:49:27Right?

00:49:28Like, you know, this old meme, it's sort of between men and women, right?

00:49:31There's a meme which is like, the woman who's fat says to her friends,

00:49:35am I fat?

00:49:36And they're like, no, you're beautiful, blah, blah, blah, right?

00:49:37And the guy says to his friends, am I fat?

00:49:39And the guys are like, hey, man, I know five fat guys, and you're four of them.

00:49:45Right?

00:49:45Which is, you know, guys could be blunt with each other and say

00:49:50the things that need to be said.

00:49:53And for a lot of women, a lot of sort of female interactions, it tends to be a little bit more

00:49:59claustrophobic.

00:49:59Like, you see this, all this positivity stuff, and it doesn't matter how you look.

00:50:02And it's like, well, no, it does.

00:50:04It's kind of like a, it's like a weird kind of sabotage thing that happens.

00:50:07So, in the family, is there not that dedication to say and do the right thing?

00:50:15And if people are upset, you know, you can sympathize, but that doesn't stop you.

00:50:21No, that was not present, really.

00:50:24Right.

00:50:26So, isn't, doesn't this mean that it's kind of tough for you to be a kind of leader in

00:50:33your current family?

00:50:34Because the leader has to make tough decisions, and a leader has to be blunt and honest.

00:50:41And not only if it upsets people, but especially when it upsets people.

00:50:48I mean, I say this as a guy who has occasionally upset a few people in the world by being blunt

00:50:52and honest.

00:50:52So, maybe you guys do, but that's what it takes to be a leader, doesn't it?

00:50:59Yeah.

00:51:00Yeah.

00:51:00And certainly that's what it takes for your wife to trust you.

00:51:07Yeah.

00:51:11So, what's the barrier to that leadership, or if we don't want to say leadership, to that

00:51:19honesty and directness?

00:51:24And I say this with no criticism.

00:51:25I, you know, we all struggle with it.

00:51:26So, I'm not trying to be any kind of superior here, but I'm just genuinely curious, in your

00:51:31case, because we all have our own different blocks, but in your case, what is the block

00:51:34to that kind of honesty and directness?

00:51:39Probably fear of losing relationships, whatever relationship it might be.

00:51:44And I think, I don't know.

00:51:48And where does that come from?

00:51:50It can't come from your sister, because you're older, right?

00:51:54And it has to come from some other template.

00:51:58Is that why your father's so cucked?

00:51:59Is that why he's so flaccid?

00:52:01Because he's afraid of your mom dumping him, or something like that?

00:52:08He's not been able to, or actually, they have their marriage issues.

00:52:17And she won't listen to that.

00:52:24If you could do me a favor, you have this, they have their, it's like this staccato thing,

00:52:30and it sounds like you're wrestling with some demon in your throat, or something like that.

00:52:34I feel like there's a huge amount of self-censorship going on, which just makes the conversation

00:52:38kind of slow, and a little spacey.

00:52:40So, if you could just try and push through that, and just communicate directly, that

00:52:43would be excellent.

00:52:45Please.

00:52:48Yeah, I'm just thinking through it more.

00:52:52No, no, don't, don't, because thinking through it is a way of not communicating.

00:52:55You're sort of trying to pick your words, and be diplomatic, and this is a time for

00:52:59directness, right?

00:52:59So, I don't need you to be diplomatic, or hesitant, or what if this is wrong?

00:53:06You just need to speak from the heart, right?

00:53:08Otherwise, it just feels very censorious, and I have to try and puzzle out what's in

00:53:12the spaces between the words.

00:53:14So, why do you fear losing relationships if you tell the truth?

00:53:21Where does that come from?

00:53:25It's not natural, we're not born that way, right?

00:53:28We're only, sorry to interrupt right after you're back, but you understand, we're all

00:53:32born with the absolute need to make other people incredibly uncomfortable in order to

00:53:38survive, right?

00:53:39I don't have to tell you guys this, you have 14,000 babies under the age of two months,

00:53:44if I remember my math correctly.

00:53:46So, babies cry, and they scream, and they, you know, wail, and gnash their teeth, and

00:53:52so on, so that you can help them, right?

00:53:54So, we all, our foundational relationships are based on survival through discomfort,

00:54:00right?

00:54:01So, we start off with this template of, yes, you absolutely have to cause discomfort in

00:54:07order to survive.

00:54:08So, that has to change, if that makes, like, that has to be reversed, and that's not a

00:54:13peaceful reversal, that's usually a threatened reversal, if that makes sense.

00:54:18So, just so you know, we're starting from the template of, you tell the truth, though

00:54:23the skies fall, you tell the truth and shame the devil, you tell the truth and it doesn't

00:54:27matter if it's uncomfortable to other people, but you have to tell the truth, because if

00:54:30you don't tell the truth, there is no relationship.

00:54:33It's a pretend relationship, it's a pseudo relationship, but you can't have a relationship

00:54:40without the truth.

00:54:42So, somewhere, the principle of be direct and honest, which babies and toddlers have,

00:54:48was reversed, and I guess that's my question, is how did that happen?

00:54:53And that, I think it gets back to your question of our family.

00:54:58Our family, well, my family never had that.

00:55:04There wasn't that level of directness.

00:55:11Yeah.

00:55:15Now, again, I hate to be a nag, but I'm going to, because I'm just talking about the virtue

00:55:19of directness.

00:55:20What you said is not true.

00:55:22So, it's not that your family did not have that directness.

00:55:28It's not that your family did not have that directness.

00:55:30It had to be, in order to reverse the directness of infancy and toddlerhood into this mishmash

00:55:38of avoidance and self-erasure, there has to be massive pressure and threats applied.

00:55:47So, it's not that they didn't have it, it's that it was actively attacked and punished

00:55:52and threatened.

00:55:53It had to be that, because how on earth could you reverse it from the directness of infancy

00:55:59and toddlerhood into this spacey avoidance that has to be the result of, well, it didn't

00:56:05just fade away.

00:56:08You know, it's like a hugely broken arm.

00:56:10It didn't just happen, something had to break it.

00:56:13So, what happened to punish honesty and directness?

00:56:17How was it threatened and punished?

00:56:24I don't know, but I guess a couple things that come to mind is my mom would not listen

00:56:31to my dad when he would try to leave.

00:56:40Whenever someone would try to assert themselves, I guess whoever it might be, it would shut

00:56:49down.

00:56:49I don't really know what the cause.

00:56:53There was a weird one time we were on, I think it was the first vacation I ever went on with

00:57:01you guys, right after we got married with your whole family.

00:57:05And they were like, what should we do today?

00:57:07And I said what I wanted to do that day.

00:57:10And they all got upset that I was ruling what we did that day by stating what I wanted and

00:57:18that that wasn't fair and that we were supposed to all kind of skirt around the issues until

00:57:25we could figure out subliminally what people wanted to do.

00:57:30That's a good example, yeah.

00:57:32That's great.

00:57:32That's a great description.

00:57:34It's like these psychic mosquitoes need to pass between everyone and coalesce into some

00:57:38kind of plan.

00:57:39So, that's fascinating.

00:57:40That's how my family works, yeah.

00:57:41Well, it doesn't work, obviously, right?

00:57:44Yeah, I know.

00:57:45So, that's fascinating.

00:57:46So, this is to your wife, right?

00:57:48Yeah.

00:57:50So, his family says to you, what do you want to do?

00:57:56And you, crazy fool that you are, think that they're actually asking you what you want

00:58:01to do, because you come from a more direct family, right?

00:58:06Yes.

00:58:07So, what do you want to do?

00:58:08Oh, okay.

00:58:09So, they must know what I want to do.

00:58:11I want to go to the beach.

00:58:12And then they're like, which is weird, right?

00:58:16Well, they were like, why are you making us go to the beach?

00:58:20No, did they literally say, why are you making us go to the beach?

00:58:24It was basically like that.

00:58:25That was the feeling, yeah.

00:58:26Because it's almost like, by saying something, they feel forced to do it.

00:58:34Yeah.

00:58:35Okay, so where does that come from?

00:58:37Who does that come from?

00:58:38I don't know.

00:58:43Yeah.

00:58:44That was because he was transplanted many states away while we were dating.

00:58:52He saw me with my family all the time.

00:58:55And I didn't really see him with his family much.

00:59:01Wow.

00:59:02Excuse make much?

00:59:04That's a good one.

00:59:05Well, I just couldn't really, because I hadn't seen.

00:59:08You had seen him with his family, because you'd seen him.

00:59:10And he's an effect of his family.

00:59:12So his personality had to have been formed by them.

00:59:14So you met them before you met them by through him and his behavior, right?

00:59:20He must have been over solicitous with you, right?

00:59:25What do you want to do?

00:59:26I don't know.

00:59:26What do you want it?

00:59:27Like, it must have been that sort of stuff.

00:59:28Like, he kind of just, he kind of been super assertive from that kind of family.

00:59:32And then it just vanished and then vanished again.

00:59:36That's true.

00:59:37Okay.

00:59:37So I probably just told him to figure out what he wanted to do that.

00:59:43Sorry, I don't know what you mean.

00:59:50So how did you see your husband when you were dating before you met his family?

00:59:54How did you see the effects of this bizarre, though, not uncommon family structure?

01:00:00I mean,

01:00:12no, I, the camping trip with her while we were dating.

01:00:17With who?

01:00:17We left it.

01:00:18We left while we were dating.

01:00:19We did a camping trip with his sister.

01:00:23And so that was the first family member of his I met.

01:00:26Sorry.

01:00:26I thought she was camping on this guy's lawn.

01:00:28Okay.

01:00:28So she went to a different kind of camping.

01:00:30Sorry.

01:00:30Just kidding.

01:00:30Go on.

01:00:32Yeah.

01:00:33And I, we were driving home after like the weekend camping trip and I was like,

01:00:39oh, I thought that went well.

01:00:43And then apparently he looked at me horrified and said that it went terribly and that she

01:00:50couldn't stand me.

01:00:52What?

01:00:54Interesting.

01:00:55Okay.

01:00:55Go on.

01:00:55Um, and I, it was, it was, it was very bizarre because I thought it was fine.

01:01:07I thought she was like, not particularly friendly and like, I didn't really like her,

01:01:14but I thought that considering the very low opinion I had of her, that it went fine because

01:01:21I thought that the 10 year relationship thing was insane and that.

01:01:25But it wasn't 10 years at that point, was it?

01:01:27Well, that was like eight years or something at that point.

01:01:31Okay.

01:01:31So you turned to your wife.

01:01:34No.

01:01:34Was she a wife yet?

01:01:36No, we were dating.

01:01:37Dating.

01:01:37Okay.

01:01:37And how long into the relationship?

01:01:40Six months.

01:01:43Five months.

01:01:44All right.

01:01:44So, I mean, obviously, how long were you guys dating before you got married?

01:01:49Like 12 months, 13 months.

01:01:51You know, it's so nice to hear a sane answer.

01:01:53I got to tell you, you know, these shows run the gamut and either it's like 72 hours or

01:02:0012 years.

01:02:01Yeah.

01:02:01Nice to hear a sane, a sane answer.

01:02:03Like a year seems about right.

01:02:04Okay.

01:02:05So this is your husband.

01:02:07You go camping with your sister.

01:02:08How did you know your sister hated your, she wasn't your fiance yet, though I assume that

01:02:12was coming pretty quickly.

01:02:13No.

01:02:14Yeah.

01:02:14But you knew, did you have the idea that you wanted to marry her?

01:02:17So at that point we were, at that point, definitely liked her and could see her as

01:02:27the one, but I don't think I decided at that point.

01:02:30But you could see it, right?

01:02:32Yes.

01:02:32Yep.

01:02:32It was, it was on the path towards it.

01:02:34Yes.

01:02:34Okay.

01:02:34So, I mean, had you fallen in love?

01:02:36Had you said the, I love you kind of stuff?

01:02:41No, not at that point.

01:02:43Okay.

01:02:44No, not at that point.

01:02:46Okay.

01:02:47But it's serious enough that you're going camping with a family member, right?

01:02:49And this was the first family member.

01:02:52This is the first family member that she'd met.

01:02:54Is that right?

01:02:56Yes.

01:02:57You've met my parents before, I mean, maybe not.

01:02:59I don't think so.

01:02:59I don't think you've met your parents until like seven or eight months in.

01:03:05Oh, that's wrong.

01:03:07I'm really wrong on that.

01:03:08I forgot about that.

01:03:09We did do a trip.

01:03:10It was like two months into dating up to where he's from.

01:03:14And I did stay with his parents and him that weekend before we flew back.

01:03:22And it was a couple of months later that we went camping with my sister, I think.

01:03:25Okay.

01:03:25Let's just go to the camping thing because I think that's really fascinating.

01:03:29I mean, it's already fascinating.

01:03:31I don't mean to divide it into interesting and not, it's already fascinating.

01:03:34Okay.

01:03:34So, five months in, obviously you care about her because she's met your family

01:03:40and she's now going camping with your sister.

01:03:42So, this is to the husband.

01:03:43Why, I'm just going to call you guys Bob and Alice because the husband all sounds too abstract

01:03:48if that's all right.

01:03:49Okay.

01:03:49So, to Bob, why did you think that your sister hated Alice?

01:03:58I think it was afterwards she had told me, I'm trying to remember now, because I don't-

01:04:04Well, you and her, I think you and her went off on some long walk

01:04:09the last night of the weekend camping trip.

01:04:13Okay.

01:04:14And I think, and I didn't think too much of it, I don't know.

01:04:19Apparently it was her spilling all the reasons that she didn't like me and thought-

01:04:24So, sorry, Bob, why is it hard, you were actually in that conversation,

01:04:27why is it hard to answer this question?

01:04:31What did your sister say, what did she say that she disliked?

01:04:35What did she say that she disliked about my wife?

01:04:38Scalding tactic, we're only talking about one person here, so, go ahead.

01:04:44Now, you don't have to give me all the details if it's really unpleasant or whatever,

01:04:47and obviously not true, because you're married and happy, but-

01:04:50I think she was surprised by, yeah, she didn't like the directness, number one,

01:04:56but interesting given what we talked about earlier, right?

01:05:00What we talked about earlier, right?

01:05:01But she didn't like the directness, she felt that she wasn't being included, even though-

01:05:12She wasn't being what?

01:05:12She didn't feel she was being included because she had to take a work call,

01:05:17so my wife and I, at the time, girlfriend, we walked around the lake, I think it was,

01:05:24and then we came back too late for her, so she got upset.

01:05:29At that point, because we were not including her, something done like that.

01:05:33Oh my god, how old was your sister at this point?

01:05:3724, 25?

01:05:39Well, you're 27, so she would have been 28, 25.

01:05:42Yeah.

01:05:43No, she would have just turned 26.

01:05:45Oh, so she'd been in this relationship with this guy at this point since she was 18?

01:05:50Yeah.

01:05:51Okay, what is, that's so bizarre.

01:05:55She's on a work call, you walk around the lake,

01:05:56and you come back a little too late for her tastes.

01:05:59Yeah.

01:06:01And when your sister said, I don't like your girlfriend because you walked around the lake,

01:06:06I know there was obviously other stuff too, what did you say?

01:06:14I don't remember.

01:06:16Okay, what did you think about that as a criticism of-

01:06:20Yeah, I thought it was unreasonable, and I think I told her something to the effect of,

01:06:28we didn't know when you were going to be done, so we just kept walking around.

01:06:30We were waiting to get a call from you.

01:06:32Oh, so you tried to defend the details.

01:06:39Yeah.

01:06:40As opposed to saying, you know, this is why the guy won't marry you, right?

01:06:45This crazy neediness, or like, this is nuts.

01:06:47Right.

01:06:49When you took a work call, we could say, well, you excluded us.

01:06:51No, you took a work call, we walked around the lake.

01:06:55I don't care when we came back, it's completely irrelevant.

01:06:58Yeah, that's true.

01:07:01So why did you go to your girlfriend and say, my sister hates you?

01:07:08Well, I don't think he said it that way at the time.

01:07:12Okay, we can massage it however we want, but isn't that, that's what I was told was

01:07:18transmitted.

01:07:19Now, again, we can say, oh, my sister has some issues or whatever.

01:07:22So you expressed your sister's dislike of Alice, is that right, Bob?

01:07:28To Alice?

01:07:32I think so.

01:07:32Or I said, like, she didn't have a good time.

01:07:34I don't know.

01:07:35Something like that.

01:07:36Okay, Alice, you remember this because women are sticky vaults with this kind of stuff,

01:07:41right?

01:07:41So what did he say?

01:07:45If I am remembering it rightly, it was something like, that's not how she felt about it.

01:07:52Okay.

01:07:54Now, what was your impression?

01:07:55It went pretty well.

01:07:56I'm sorry, so you said you thought you had a good time, and the reason you said that

01:08:00is your family's direct, right?

01:08:04So if she didn't say she had a problem with you, then you'd assume that there's no problem

01:08:07because your family's more direct.

01:08:09So she complains about Alice to Bob, and then Bob, you go to Alice and say, in response

01:08:17to your sister saying, I had a good time, or think that pretty well, saying, no, she

01:08:21doesn't like you, or something like that, right?

01:08:23I think he said she doesn't feel the same way, I don't think.

01:08:28Yeah, so he wasn't even direct about that.

01:08:29I'm sorry, what did you say?

01:08:35He wasn't even direct about that.

01:08:38That's true, yes.

01:08:40Okay.

01:08:41So why would you, so when you said that, what was your sort of thought or feeling about

01:08:52the conflict between your sister and your girlfriend?

01:09:00Or to put it another way, who was in the wrong?

01:09:09So my sister, or I'm not sure what you're asking, I guess, I'm confused.

01:09:13Okay, so when you're saying, my sister doesn't like you, who was wrong?

01:09:19Was your sister right to not like your girlfriend?

01:09:22Oh, no, yeah, my sister was wrong.

01:09:24Okay, so Alice, did he communicate that my sister doesn't like you for completely insane

01:09:29reasons, I can't believe it, she's totally in the wrong?

01:09:34No.

01:09:35Okay, so why not?

01:09:36Again, this is, I'm telling you, Bob, I'm not trying to pick on you, because don't worry,

01:09:40we'll get to Alice, right?

01:09:41But I'm just trying to point out that this bearing false witness is you're lying.

01:09:46And I'm not saying you're some big liar, and I'm like, I'm just, but in terms of, it's

01:09:49false.

01:09:50If you think your sister's crazy, for the criticism she has of Alice, and then you tell

01:09:56Alice, your sister doesn't like her, and don't take Alice's side and disavow your sister's

01:10:01crazy problems, then you have a loyalty to Alice at the expense of your sister, that

01:10:09you've genuinely believe, but you're not saying to Alice.

01:10:16Yeah.

01:10:19I don't know why.

01:10:21I mean, I'm sorry to just keep harping on the faith.

01:10:24See, get it?

01:10:24Faith and harp?

01:10:25Anyway.

01:10:26But, and Ireland, come to think of it.

01:10:28So, but this is honesty, isn't it?

01:10:31This is, I mean, whether you say it's just be honest, or thou shall not bear false witness,

01:10:36isn't this?

01:10:37Yeah, it's being forthright and truthful, yeah.

01:10:40Right.

01:10:41So, if you say, and listen, this, I don't want to speak for Alice here, but for women,

01:10:49it's kind of a big deal if his sister, who he's very close to, doesn't like you, right?

01:10:57Yes, except that I already didn't like her.

01:11:01I get that.

01:11:02It's also a big deal that you didn't like her.

01:11:06Yes, it is.

01:11:07Because you're marrying into this family, and your husband says,

01:11:11I'm super close to my sister, and you don't like each other.

01:11:16This is very obvious when you say it that way.

01:11:20But it wasn't at the time?

01:11:23It was in some ways, but not to the extent once you've lived it.

01:11:29Well, and it certainly did turn out to be a big problem when you had babies and sickness and

01:11:33a pathologically needy codependent sister leading in your ear like Iago every night.

01:11:40Yeah.

01:11:42So, it kind of did.

01:11:43We almost did break up right after getting engaged over his sister.

01:11:49Well, so that's what I'm trying to sort of figure out, because this is a very big deal.

01:11:54This is a very big deal, because when two women, and this can happen with men too,

01:11:59when two women are facing each other as enemies, then you, Bob, as the man, are caught in the

01:12:06middle, right?

01:12:07Yeah.

01:12:08Okay.

01:12:09Now, which side was right?

01:12:21My wife, which is why I married her, because she said we almost broke up.

01:12:28No, it's not enough to marry her.

01:12:31Right.

01:12:32What should you have done?

01:12:36I should have silenced my sister more.

01:12:37And that's where I was getting to, is that before, it was after the engagement, before

01:12:47the wedding, I think, my sister then said additional things that she didn't like about

01:12:54my fiance at the time.

01:12:58And I then stopped talking to my sister.

01:13:00Briefly, like, I don't know if I said it, trying to remember the conversation with her,

01:13:06but like, at that point, I didn't.

01:13:10I said, I disagree.

01:13:12And I went forward with getting engaged and or the way I forget that, I guess, sequence

01:13:19there, but then that made her all the more upset that I chose to ignore her feelings

01:13:27over the matter.

01:13:28But you chose to ignore her feelings, and she's insulting the woman you love and want

01:13:32to marry.

01:13:33But apparently, her feelings are all that matter.

01:13:35Oh, she's toxic.

01:13:36Yeah.

01:13:37Yeah.

01:13:38Okay, so then you stopped talking to her for some period of time?

01:13:44No, then it came.

01:13:45That's the problem.

01:13:45That's when it came.

01:13:46So I stopped talking to her until getting married, then.

01:13:50Because it's like, okay, I've heard your opinion, but I disagree.

01:13:54So I'm just going to get married.

01:13:57But then, okay, so everything, sorry, Bob, everything there is false, except for the

01:14:02getting married part.

01:14:03Everything there is false.

01:14:05Your sister did not put this forward as an opinion, did she?

01:14:13What do you mean?

01:14:14Well, an opinion is something that is subjective, right?

01:14:19As opposed to a fact, right?

01:14:21Okay, yeah, I'm sure she probably presented it as like a fact.

01:14:24Yeah, yeah, she is this way, she's insensitive, she doesn't do this, she didn't, she walked

01:14:29around the lake and she's, so when you say that's your opinion, that's not the case,

01:14:35because it wasn't her opinion.

01:14:36It was a fact for her, right?

01:14:38Or a series of facts.

01:14:39And a series of pretty damning facts, right?

01:14:41She was condemning the personality of the woman you love, right?

01:14:45And the character and the morals of the woman you love, right?

01:14:50Okay, so it was not an opinion, it was an absolute fact and condemnation and judgment,

01:14:55right?

01:14:58Yeah.

01:15:00And it was not the case that you disagree.

01:15:06You know, if somebody says to me, I don't know, Paul McCartney is a better singer than

01:15:10Paul McCartney is a better singer than Freddie Mercury, right?

01:15:12It's like, well, yeah, I disagree.

01:15:13It's just an opinion, right?

01:15:14This is not, but if somebody says, if somebody says two and two make five,

01:15:20I don't just disagree with them, they're wrong.

01:15:23Yep, she's wrong, yes.

01:15:24I should, I did not say that though, but you're right.

01:15:27So, no, no, no, but this is important because this is about loyalty.

01:15:36This is about loyalty.

01:15:37Yeah.

01:15:38And anyone who condemns the woman you love, oof, I mean, I just say this from my own personal

01:15:46experience, I had a very close family member say to me that he wasn't going to bother to

01:15:51get to know my wife because we were just going to get divorced anyway.

01:15:57And I didn't even debate.

01:15:59Oh, I disagree and like, sorry, I don't mean to mock you, but it's like, no, it's just

01:16:03like, you're done.

01:16:04Like, we're done.

01:16:05We're done.

01:16:06Don't, don't you step between my heart and its objects, right?

01:16:11And, and what I love and what I treasure.

01:16:14If you don't see the immense beauty that is my bride to be, we have nothing in common

01:16:21and I want to have nothing to do with it.

01:16:25Yep.

01:16:27So, you are way too diplomatic and not decisive enough, right?

01:16:34And, and there is, I think, a certain amount of honesty, sorry, dishonesty in that, right?

01:16:38It must have been pretty appalling for you, for your sister to condemn the morals and

01:16:42character of the woman you love.

01:16:49So, when your sister says that, how long before the wedding did she say that?

01:16:57I don't remember.

01:16:59Um.

01:17:02It was probably within a few weeks.

01:17:04Yeah.

01:17:05So, a few weeks before, oh my gosh.

01:17:08So, a few weeks before the wedding, she's kind of trashing your bride to be.

01:17:15Yeah.

01:17:17So, why would she be at the wedding, which is a celebration of love, with a woman who

01:17:24hates the bride?

01:17:25And, and not just hates her, but judges her morally as bad in terrible ways, right?

01:17:30Significant ways.

01:17:33I knew at the time I shouldn't have done it, but I changed the wedding date for her too.

01:17:37Oh my gosh.

01:17:40Are you kidding me?

01:17:44I wish I was.

01:17:45I wonder if this is maybe helpful.

01:17:48I don't know how this is helpful, but like.

01:17:49It's going on.

01:17:50It's almost.

01:17:51Family structure.

01:17:53Yeah.

01:17:54Well, maybe just connect this back to the Taco Bell story, right?

01:17:57It's almost a similar thing where.

01:18:01I didn't do what was right and I should have done for my wife for us, but then she ends up like.

01:18:12Giving in, but I don't know.

01:18:14Giving, I guess, for lack of a better term, giving in at least marginally.

01:18:18Well, I said I was going to turn like a rabbit dog on Alice.

01:18:24I had a little bit.

01:18:25Hold up that pet.

01:18:27It's coming.

01:18:30And I'm not ready.

01:18:31There's some connection there.

01:18:33You've had 19 babies in three weeks.

01:18:35You can handle it.

01:18:38All right, Alice, my good friend.

01:18:41Are you ready?

01:18:43Okay.

01:18:45This absolute wretch of a sister.

01:18:48Who won't take even the slightest criticism of her own relationship is perfectly happy to trash.

01:18:54An engagement.

01:18:56I mean, you understand the hypocrisy here is.

01:18:59Demonic almost.

01:19:01Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:19:02She later called our wedding the worst day of her life.

01:19:05So, oh, my gosh, you guys.

01:19:08I'm trying not to have an end.

01:19:09I'm just massaging my temple here to try and clear the aneurysm.

01:19:12Well, we both feel it gathering.

01:19:15Sorry, go ahead.

01:19:16Yeah.

01:19:17No, no, don't tell me anymore.

01:19:19Let me get rid of this bulge first.

01:19:20Okay, go ahead.

01:19:22We we both come from very messed up families just in different ways.

01:19:25No, no, I'm I'm focusing on Alice.

01:19:27Now you've had to stop talking.

01:19:29Maybe I'll stop talking when you said the divided loyalties thing.

01:19:33And then I married somebody who wasn't loyal.

01:19:35I was like, holy crap.

01:19:38My mom did that.

01:19:40Oh, okay.

01:19:41Well, yeah, nice, nice way to distract me with your childhood.

01:19:44And we'll get to that in a sec.

01:19:45Let's focus on the chomp chomp first.

01:19:49Okay.

01:19:50So, Bob is not honest and direct.

01:19:57And Alice, neither are you in some areas.

01:20:02So, when your sister squared off against you, you knew it was a big deal, right?

01:20:11This is the sibling he claimed to be closest to?

01:20:14Yes, I knew I knew it was a big deal.

01:20:16That's a big deal, right?

01:20:18Did you say to him, this is a very big deal.

01:20:21This is going to be a big issue.

01:20:22We're going to have to figure this one out.

01:20:26I think I basically said that.

01:20:28Yeah.

01:20:28Okay.

01:20:29And Bob, what do you remember of that?

01:20:31You said that first, before we got married, that was when we almost broke up.

01:20:38And then I'm sure you said it afterwards, but multiple times.

01:20:43Probably.

01:20:45Okay.

01:20:46Well...

01:20:47Sorry, but so, sorry.

01:20:48So, this is a big deal.

01:20:49You've got this woman who dislikes you for, it sounds like, pretty petty and terrible

01:20:55reasons, and who herself cannot manage any kind of relationship, and God help the planet,

01:21:01is now a therapist.

01:21:02But...

01:21:05Right.

01:21:06You moved to the wedding, and you did not demand that your husband take your side, no

01:21:13matter what.

01:21:14And what does the Bible say?

01:21:16A man and his wife, a husband and a wife become what?

01:21:22Flesh.

01:21:22One flesh.

01:21:26If you have a problem with my wife, you have a problem with me.

01:21:31Not just like, well, I disagree with your opinion.

01:21:34If you hate her, you hate me, because we're one flesh.

01:21:39I mean, my dad did say that stuff to you, about your sister.

01:21:44What did he say?

01:21:47When it got, it kind of was blowing up, I think, I don't know if it was right before

01:21:52we got engaged or after, and I was talking about it with my parents, and some with my

01:22:01husband, Bob, and my dad met with him and told him that he had to do something about

01:22:11the wedding, or he didn't support us getting married.

01:22:15Okay.

01:22:18And?

01:22:21Was that when you stopped talking to her for a time?

01:22:25I don't remember now.

01:22:26What was the kill?

01:22:27I think it was the first year.

01:22:33What happened after?

01:22:34Because that was before engagement.

01:22:38Because then we met together after that, and I was prepared to break it off.

01:22:45Even though, yeah, I think we were like half an hour from engagement almost at that point.

01:22:51But then, we didn't, and I don't remember why.

01:22:59At some point, things not got better, but like, somehow you got more okay with it,

01:23:07but probably just looked past it or something, because at some point, then you communicated

01:23:11to your dad that it was okay or something, because then he then told me, okay, you have

01:23:17my blessing again.

01:23:18But it wasn't resolved.

01:23:22It may be so, sorry, your father-in-law, Bob, your father-in-law gave a big speech

01:23:26about this has to be resolved.

01:23:28It wasn't resolved, and he just went ahead with anything with everything anyway.

01:23:36I'm assuming there must have been some type of uplift in the way.

01:23:42I won't let her come between us and what she said was wrong.

01:23:48Yeah, I think I sided with, I said or did some things to make you feel assured,

01:23:57and then you shared that with your dad.

01:24:00Sorry, say that again.

01:24:01I didn't quite follow that.

01:24:02My apologies.

01:24:07I must have said some things, something to my wife now about, like, she's wrong.

01:24:16I decided, like, I want to marry you.

01:24:20I won't just say I want to marry you, but, like, we weren't engaged then.

01:24:24Somehow, I assured her that it would not happen again.

01:24:30My loyalties were with her, and that got her comfortable enough somehow.

01:24:36Yeah, I think we're both fuzzy on the details there.

01:24:39Yeah, and I, like, truly cannot remember how that, it must not have really gotten

01:24:46resolved because I know it wouldn't have been because then it came up, yeah, after.

01:24:50Okay, so, Bob, what did your family think about your sister and all of this stuff?

01:25:00I'm trying to remember now.

01:25:03Did they know?

01:25:06They were supportive of us.

01:25:10They didn't spend a lot of time with my wife before we got married because,

01:25:15yeah, different states, but they were supportive.

01:25:21I don't know how much they knew, do you remember at all, about you?

01:25:28I don't think they, like, liked me because of my personality.

01:25:35It's just, you were very open about it.

01:25:37But they didn't, like, dislike me at the time.

01:25:40Yeah, so it wasn't, like, an extreme.

01:25:41What time are we talking here?

01:25:42Well, like, in the dating, early marriage phase, that's his parents, like, didn't like.

01:25:48I assume, sorry to interrupt, I assume that the sister would have vented her dislike of

01:25:54you, Alice, to the family, to Bob's family, because they're family, right?

01:25:59Yeah, probably, but my sister was also a little bit, not estranged, that's a little bit too

01:26:04strong, definitely estranged from my mom at the time.

01:26:10And still is.

01:26:11And still is, yeah, somewhat, I don't know if close is the right word with my dad, but,

01:26:16like, so I don't know how much she would have shared, but to your point, she probably did

01:26:22share something, I'm just not sure.

01:26:24I feel like she would have shared a fairly significant amount with your dad.

01:26:28I would imagine, yeah.

01:26:30Because he does, he kind of does the, like, nods along to the feelings until, and then

01:26:38says something else to someone else later.

01:26:41Yeah, but I never heard anything, I don't think, from them about.

01:26:49So they never said, look, you've got a conflict between your fiancé and your sister, so we need

01:26:57to sit down and work this stuff out.

01:27:00Right, and I don't think so.

01:27:02And I think that's part of the problems of the family I grew up with, and now that I

01:27:08carry in now, I guess.

01:27:10Okay, so we don't work through conflicts.

01:27:13Yeah, we didn't really work through conflicts.

01:27:17My dad would try to as a family, but it just never worked.

01:27:21And we weren't able to, there's a lot of interpersonal conflicts between different

01:27:27members of the family.

01:27:28And just, we learned all, not learned, get along with fake relationships, is that a fair

01:27:36way of saying it?

01:27:38Yeah, probably.

01:27:40So you laugh.

01:27:41And my family probably.

01:27:42No, I mean, there's a lot, this is a lot of words, so you laugh.

01:27:44Yeah, that's just, yeah.

01:27:46Yeah, there's a lot of dishonesty, and like, just, yeah.

01:27:48And we both do it with both of our families.

01:27:51Oh, sorry, I thought, Alice, I thought your family was more, oh, just in different ways?

01:27:55Yeah, there is a lot of directness in some ways, but then not in some of the most fundamental

01:28:03ways.

01:28:04Okay, so in what is there directness?

01:28:07And I don't count the sister crabbing about you as directness.

01:28:12I just view that as discontented sabotage.

01:28:16Yeah.

01:28:18So where is the directness showing up?

01:28:22From?

01:28:24You said the family is direct in some ways and indirect in others, and I'm not doubting

01:28:27you, of course, I just want to know where does the directness show up?

01:28:31Well, my family's directness showed up in how my dad, like, actually sat my husband

01:28:37down when we were just before engagement with the sister.

01:28:42Yes, that didn't matter.

01:28:43Yeah.

01:28:44Right.

01:28:44I think that's because my side, which is a lot more direct, is not fundamentally honest.

01:28:51And what are they not honest about?

01:28:55Oh, boy, where do you even start with that?

01:28:58Well, I was going to make a general comment, I guess.

01:29:00I think that does, there's the boldness and directness up front, but then it's not carried

01:29:06through, which is kind of the same way of saying it's not honest.

01:29:10So it's like some sort of honesty, but without any consequences.

01:29:15Yeah.

01:29:15Yes, that's a good way.

01:29:16No follow through, it doesn't really mean anything.

01:29:19Right.

01:29:20Yeah.

01:29:20There were issues, significant issues in my family, my parents' marriage when I was a

01:29:25child, and it came to a head when I was, like, 13.

01:29:29And at that point, my dad decided to go no contact with his family.

01:29:35Sorry, which family?

01:29:37His parents and siblings.

01:29:40Ah, and do you know why he did that?

01:29:43Because his whole family, like, his immediate family was, like, splitting apart at the time.

01:29:50That doesn't really answer anything, because I don't really know what any of that means.

01:29:53So many rabbit trails, important stuff.

01:30:01Let me see if I can just sort of make it a bit clearer.

01:30:05So from what you know of your dad's conflict with his family, did you agree with his decision

01:30:09to go no contact?

01:30:10I did agree with it, but I was extremely upset in how it happened, and, like, I felt like

01:30:25it should have been done far, far sooner.

01:30:29And what were the major issues?

01:30:30Was it about dishonesty?

01:30:33Was it about abuse?

01:30:34Was it about neglect?

01:30:35Was it about lack of loyalty?

01:30:40What was the major issue or issues that your father had with his parents?

01:30:46They didn't like my mom.

01:30:48Ah, I'm sorry, I don't mean to laugh, but you see the pattern.

01:30:52Yeah, I saw that, like, half an hour ago.

01:30:54Oh, I know, you mentioned it.

01:30:55I'm not trying to claim any prize here for restating what you said about half an hour

01:31:00ago.

01:31:00So, yeah, okay, so the pattern is clear.

01:31:04And it says, like, but your father did cut off his parents because they disapproved of

01:31:09your mother, right?

01:31:12Only once it went past him and her, because I had gone on a sleepover with my grandparents,

01:31:23which we used to do occasionally.

01:31:24They'd, like, you know, take us out to dinner, or, like, they'd pick a grandkid, take you

01:31:27out to dinner, and then you could go shopping and buy some clothes and then spend the night

01:31:32and have a leisurely breakfast and go home.

01:31:34It was usually kind of like a nice time.

01:31:38But my grandmother, my dad's mother, used that time to explain to me all of the ways

01:31:45in which my mother was a terrible mother and did not love me or my father.

01:31:50Oh, my gosh.

01:31:52That's absolutely appalling.

01:31:58That's absolutely appalling.

01:32:01Okay, so loyalty is—

01:32:02And my mother—

01:32:02Sorry, go ahead.

01:32:03And my mother was the more emotionally distant of my parents, and she and I are the opposite.

01:32:14I'm much more like my dad and not like her.

01:32:18Like, we don't really get each other on a wavelength like she does with my sister.

01:32:23So we always had more conflict between us.

01:32:28Right.

01:32:28And this was the grandmother that I felt an identity with.

01:32:35So I believed her on a lot of things, and then my parents never really addressed it with me.

01:32:42So you believed her about how bad your mother was.

01:32:46Because in some ways, she was right.

01:32:48Right.

01:32:49My mother isn't perfect.

01:32:51Not even close.

01:32:54It's kind of come up since then at different times where I can see it.

01:32:57She maybe tries to care about my wife, but there's a lot of selfishness there, I think.

01:33:06So there's some elements of truth, but it's not something you tell your granddaughter, of course.

01:33:13Yes, of course.

01:33:14But it's believable, if that makes sense.

01:33:18Right.

01:33:18It's easy for my wife to believe.

01:33:20Well, and it is absolutely—

01:33:22How old were you when your grandmother was telling you all this terrible stuff?

01:33:25Thirteen.

01:33:26Oh, my gosh.

01:33:27I mean, that's just poison, right?

01:33:29That's just pure poison.

01:33:30And it wrecked her next three years, like massive depression.

01:33:37Yeah.

01:33:37And my parents were like, well, since our daughter is a disaster now, we think you did it.

01:33:45And we think you did it.

01:33:47So my mom was like, if you don't do something about them, then I'm, you know, I don't know.

01:33:57I don't think she ever threatened to leave, but—

01:34:01Your mother to your dad?

01:34:03Yeah.

01:34:03Gosh, oh gosh.

01:34:05I'm so sorry.

01:34:06That's just wretched.

01:34:07Well, and this is the lack of decisiveness, right?

01:34:10How did your parents know, or when did your parents find out that their parents were poisoning you?

01:34:18Well, it was because I treated my mom differently after that.

01:34:25And so mom, like, wanted to pry into it because it hurt her feelings that I wasn't being nice

01:34:34to her, like I was short with her.

01:34:37I was short with her.

01:34:39I was being disrespectful to her.

01:34:44So you were acting out your grandmother's dislike of your mother against your mother,

01:34:48and your parents sort of figured this out, like sort of reverse engineered it?

01:34:54Yes.

01:34:55Okay.

01:34:56And you were 13, so I assume that this had been going on for years, or did it only start at 13?

01:35:07She always—my grandmother always favored me over my siblings.

01:35:11I was the oldest grandchild, and I was the most—

01:35:18Personality-wise, I mean, it's kind of horrifying to think about that I was the most like her.

01:35:24But—

01:35:26Well, very—

01:35:29But, and there was a lot of favoritism.

01:35:33So like, my two younger siblings would often—

01:35:37Like, she would bring me a present and not them.

01:35:40Well, and of course, that is also sabotage, right?

01:35:44Yeah.

01:35:47And there would be a reason, because like, well, she's had an illness and you guys don't.

01:35:52Right, but still, I mean, it's just, it's pointless, right?

01:35:55I mean, it just doesn't work.

01:35:56It's just terrible.

01:35:58And it causes a lot of conflict within the family, and then they get to leave with a

01:36:01bunch of discontented, upset kids and sort of roll back to their lair.

01:36:07Okay.

01:36:10And my dad's sibling lived down the street with their several kids about our ages,

01:36:15and they would be at their house, and we'd see their car there all the time.

01:36:21And they would visit us like two or three times a year.

01:36:24Oh, God.

01:36:25And they'd be at my cousin's like three times a week.

01:36:29Sorry, who would be?

01:36:31My grandparents.

01:36:33They would visit you?

01:36:35You mean when you were a kid?

01:36:38No, they would visit my cousin's, my dad's sister's kids three times a week or so,

01:36:46and they would stop at our house down the street, you know, like twice a year.

01:36:51Right.

01:36:53Okay.

01:36:54My dad was always the least favorite kid for sure.

01:36:58Well, I mean, he obviously had the most capacity to tell the truth,

01:37:01because he didn't end up calling them out and then split, right?

01:37:04And so how old were you when he split with his parents?

01:37:10I would have been 13.

01:37:12Okay.

01:37:12And your grandmother over the years had said all these terrible things about your mother, right?

01:37:18Yes.

01:37:19Right.

01:37:19Not to me as much over the years.

01:37:22It was mostly at that one sleepover.

01:37:25Okay.

01:37:26But she definitely did all that poison, right?

01:37:28So then when you have-

01:37:29But she was complaining in my dad's ear about my mother since the beginning.

01:37:36Right. So in the same way that Bob's sister is complaining about you,

01:37:39and you all have trouble with the toxic femininity, right?

01:37:43Yeah.

01:37:44Yeah.

01:37:45Okay. Yeah, that makes sense.

01:37:48So why did you move the wedding date?

01:37:52Why?

01:37:53And I know this sounds like I'm yelling at you, like, why?

01:37:56I mean, but why?

01:37:57I mean, she's a horrible person.

01:37:59She's making everybody's- well, she's making your life difficult.

01:38:02She doesn't like it.

01:38:03And she can't honestly say, right, you know, this is the big question.

01:38:06And this is where, you know, you all are Christians, which is lovely in many ways.

01:38:10But I don't think you got the, if anybody knows any reason why this marriage should

01:38:15not continue, speak now or what?

01:38:18Forever hold your peace.

01:38:19Shut up.

01:38:21Forever hold your peace.

01:38:22There's a reason for that.

01:38:23It doesn't come out of nowhere.

01:38:25It's so people don't poison a marriage with children in it.

01:38:30Yeah.

01:38:31My parents' marriage was a nightmare for my entire childhood.

01:38:34And a lot of it was due to poisoning.

01:38:37Well, no.

01:38:39Sorry to be annoying and correct you about your own family.

01:38:42But it's not.

01:38:44It's not.

01:38:45Because your dad chose to have that in his life.

01:38:49No, it's not.

01:38:50No, it's not.

01:38:51Not the parents.

01:38:53Yeah.

01:38:54Right.

01:38:54I mean, I don't mean to quote our good buddy, Jay, but he says, I have come to set mother

01:38:59against father, brother against sister, which means that when you do the right thing, a

01:39:03lot of times your family will hit the roof.

01:39:06It's right there.

01:39:07Jesus says it.

01:39:08That says if you do the right thing, your family's going to have meltdowns on a regular

01:39:11basis.

01:39:13I don't I don't want to jump us too far, but that's kind of what we're dealing with now

01:39:18with various members of both families.

01:39:23Yeah, no, but let's get back there.

01:39:25We'll get there.

01:39:26So back to the sister in the wedding.

01:39:27Right.

01:39:28All right.

01:39:30Yeah, I moved it.

01:39:32Sorry.

01:39:32No, but did you want her at your wedding?

01:39:35This is to I didn't want her at my wedding.

01:39:37I didn't want her at my wedding.

01:39:38I didn't want her at my wedding.

01:39:39I didn't want her at my wedding.

01:39:40I didn't want her at my wedding.

01:39:41I didn't want her there.

01:39:42Okay.

01:39:43So why wasn't that just a condition of getting married?

01:39:45This woman doesn't like me.

01:39:47She trash talks me.

01:39:48She says I shouldn't get married.

01:39:49I don't want her at my wedding.

01:39:50That's a reasonable thing to say, isn't it?

01:39:53Yes, I don't think I would have.

01:39:56Yeah, I don't think my husband would have married me if I had made that condition.

01:40:00Really?

01:40:01And I and I wanted to get married.

01:40:06So this is to Bob.

01:40:07Is that true?

01:40:11You would have chosen a toxic, dysfunctional sister over the woman you love.

01:40:29I don't mean to sound appalled.

01:40:31I'm a little surprised.

01:40:33So I'm certainly happy to hear the case.

01:40:36But this is a woman who can't couldn't run a popsicle stand and can't run her marriage and

01:40:41is negative and gets mad at you guys for taking a walk around the lake and trashes

01:40:45the woman you love.

01:40:46And my God, like, help me understand.

01:40:48You wouldn't have married her if your sister couldn't come to the wedding.

01:40:54I'm trying to put myself.

01:40:57I was able to tell my sister, no, like, I'm going forward with this, no matter what you say.

01:41:04But then if if the condition or the boundary would have been put in place by my wife, then.

01:41:11I'm sorry.

01:41:13Sorry.

01:41:14Again, I don't know where your Christianity is, but the boundary is not put in place by your wife.

01:41:20Right now.

01:41:21Yeah.

01:41:21Who puts the boundary?

01:41:24It should have been me.

01:41:25No, who puts the boundary in?

01:41:27Where does don't have people who oppose the marriage at the marriage?

01:41:32Who puts that in?

01:41:33Who puts that in as a requirement for marriage for getting married?

01:41:38God.

01:41:38Exactly.

01:41:39God says this is a celebration of love.

01:41:43Thou shall not bear false witness means that your sister would have to say, I know of a

01:41:47reason why this marriage shouldn't continue.

01:41:49The wife is horrible.

01:41:51And here's why.

01:41:52And like, it would have been a complete disaster, right?

01:41:55Yeah.

01:41:55So there's a reason why.

01:41:59And it's not coming from you, it should come from your faith.

01:42:03Yeah, and I think.

01:42:04It's the.

01:42:08It's the hypocrisy, maybe of the hypocrisy, I was believing that it won't be loving to do that,

01:42:19but that's obviously wrong.

01:42:21It wouldn't be loving to do that.

01:42:24I don't know where it's there.

01:42:26Thou shall not bear false witness and don't have people at your wedding who hate your

01:42:31people at your wedding who hate your wife and think she's immoral and selfish and mean or

01:42:36whatever other things she said.

01:42:40Loving is telling the truth.

01:42:42Loving is serving God.

01:42:43Loving is serving virtue.

01:42:44Loving is keeping the Ten Commandments.

01:42:46You must love God and virtue.

01:42:49Not crazy, dysfunctional sisters who are trying to sabotage your life.

01:42:53And that's why I'm ashamed to think about that now, back then, because it's essentially

01:42:59what I grew up with and what I believed at the time.

01:43:03And it was messed up and what contributed to some problems.

01:43:06What came between you and God?

01:43:08Because you have to know what the shadow is, right?

01:43:12She said that your marriage was the worst day of her life.

01:43:18Now, I've heard some ugly stuff over like doing these calls for like, I don't know,

01:43:22coming on for 20 years now, right?

01:43:24So I've heard some ugly stuff.

01:43:26I got to tell you, that's probably in the top five.

01:43:30Of ugly, ugly, ugly things that I've heard.

01:43:35And I've gone to some pretty seriously deep caves, and this is like 14 layers below that.

01:43:41Yeah.

01:43:42So the level of vitriol and hatred and contempt and ugliness there, it's off the charts, right?

01:43:52Yeah.

01:43:53Totally agree.

01:43:54So what came between you and your faith?

01:43:58What is eclipsing you and your faith?

01:44:01There's something, and this is virtue, right?

01:44:05At the time, I think it was family.

01:44:07Yeah.

01:44:07Okay, so how is your family coming between you and God?

01:44:10They raised you a Christian, right?

01:44:13Yeah, I don't, that's the piece I don't know what the answer is.

01:44:16I just think it was, clearly, it's family that's coming between me and God.

01:44:20But why?

01:44:23Okay, so you know that the biggest devil is the desire for appearance, right?

01:44:28Yeah.

01:44:29To have the appearance of virtue, rather than actually being virtuous, is the biggest temptation,

01:44:35right?

01:44:37I mean, the devil literally offers you the appearance of success when he takes your soul,

01:44:41right?

01:44:42I'll make you famous, beautiful, rich, popular, successful, talented, and everybody envies you,

01:44:48and they think you've got it made, and then you lose your soul, right?

01:44:53And of course, I'm not saying this is a direct reference.

01:44:57I'm just talking about a general principle, right?

01:44:59So, the appearance, right?

01:45:01The appearance, right?

01:45:03Jesus obviously looked like he was losing everything, but he gained most of the world,

01:45:07right?

01:45:08So, the appearance, is it the focus that, well, we don't want to have the appearance

01:45:15of conflict or problems?

01:45:20Yeah, that's how I was, getting back to your question, the culture of families,

01:45:25that's how I was raised, and that's the mindset I had, I think, was

01:45:29appearance, and like, family must stick together, it's a phrase my mom always says,

01:45:35like, why can't we just fix our problems in our family?

01:45:37Well, there's lots of big issues.

01:45:41Family must stick together?

01:45:42Okay, so let's say that that's a principle that you and your father agree on,

01:45:45that family must stick together, right?

01:45:48Okay, so what do you do with people who are attacking the family?

01:45:52Because, I mean, the grandmother, right?

01:45:56I'm sorry, that was on the other side.

01:45:57But no, so with the sister, right?

01:45:59So, what do you do with the sister?

01:46:01She's attacking, family must stick together, okay, well, she's attacking you,

01:46:05so, what, you then just suppress and say that, because this is just, it's just fueling the

01:46:09bullying, it's like, why is your sister the way she is?

01:46:12Well, in part, because your family supports it, because she holds your reputation hostage,

01:46:18it could be an ugly scene at the wedding, it could be a bad scene at the wedding,

01:46:22she could be difficult, she might make things unpleasant, she might spill the beans,

01:46:26she might say things that are, right?

01:46:27So, she holds the entire reputation of the family hostage, and I'm telling you, brother

01:46:31and sister, you cannot be good if you're over-concerned with your reputation,

01:46:37because otherwise, it's used to control you.

01:46:40We, I grew up by...

01:46:42Sorry, go ahead.

01:46:44I grew up with people within my family attacking each other, but the mindset was,

01:46:51family sticks together.

01:46:53So, how did the two coexist?

01:46:55What does that mean?

01:46:56Where's that in the Bible?

01:46:58No, I agree with you, it's just, that's what I was, the mindset, I think, of my family.

01:47:03But what does it mean?

01:47:07We, it's the appearance, family appears, probably, it appears to look

01:47:13like we're fine.

01:47:14Okay, so it's more important to look good than to be good.

01:47:19I think that is a good summary of my

01:47:25upbringing, would you agree with that?

01:47:30Yeah, I think that's probably a good way of summarizing the culture of my

01:47:36immediate family growing up.

01:47:38Right, so that means that you embolden and enable and empower

01:47:43bullies, and good people have to shrink into nothingness and ghostliness.

01:47:54It's the, you know, if you're afraid of people causing a scene, then those people will just

01:47:58threaten to cause a scene to get their way.

01:48:00If you're afraid of emotional discomfort or the family looking dysfunctional,

01:48:04then the people just threaten to make a scene or cause a problem or

01:48:08embarrass you, and you're, okay, okay, right?

01:48:09It's literally like parents with toddlers having tantrums, oh, here's the candy, okay, shush,

01:48:13no, it's okay, have the candy.

01:48:16Yeah.

01:48:17It's a culture of fear, it's like living under this

01:48:20shadow of emotional terrorism and having to obey the craziest people in the environment.

01:48:27My family, yeah.

01:48:28And we keep doing it every holiday.

01:48:30Yeah, so, and after all of this, okay, when did your sister say, sorry, Bob, when did

01:48:40your sister say your wedding was the worst day of her life?

01:48:48A couple years, a year, a couple years after?

01:48:51I don't remember.

01:48:52Yeah, my instinct would say about a year after.

01:48:54Okay.

01:48:55It's probably been, yeah, somewhere there.

01:48:57So this is, that's just venomous, right?

01:48:59It's absolutely horrible and venomous.

01:49:01And to me, that would just be a total relationship ender.

01:49:04Like, I'm just like, good luck, kid, you know, that's just like, that's just so horrible,

01:49:08I couldn't, and it's not loving to continue a relationship when people do that, right?

01:49:16Loving is holding people accountable to virtue and holding them responsible for their lives.

01:49:21So what you're saying is that years after she said that your wedding was the worst day

01:49:26of her life, she's calling you up in tears because you didn't listen to her advice and

01:49:30you're pouring time, effort and energy into this little witch because she had a breakup,

01:49:37which was entirely predictable.

01:49:39And you know why she broke up because she's pretty, she's pretty nasty, right?

01:49:43She's verbally abusive.

01:49:47So even after she insulted the very foundation of your marriage and the love of your life

01:49:51and the happiest day of your life, you're still like, oh yeah, no, hey, whatever you

01:49:55need.

01:49:56I'm here for you, sis.

01:50:00Bro, where are you?

01:50:02Yeah, that was the first couple years.

01:50:04Yeah, I agree.

01:50:05And yeah, that's, yeah.

01:50:14Well, you, uh, you took a big giant dump on my wedding cake, but let me see what I can

01:50:19do to help you out.

01:50:20And you've never apologized or taken any responsibility for the hurt you caused me

01:50:24over the course of my dating and engagement and marriage, but I'm just here for you,

01:50:30sis.

01:50:31Let me help you.

01:50:36That was childhood.

01:50:38I was, I was, yeah, I guess my, my dad would come to me when, with his problems with my

01:50:45mom and then my mom would do the same.

01:50:48I'm sorry, at what age were you being dumped marital problems on?

01:50:51Um, probably starting for sure.

01:50:58College.

01:51:00I don't know how much in high school.

01:51:02We have definitely in college a lot.

01:51:04Um, but I know still living at home in early college.

01:51:08Okay, but not as like a kid kid.

01:51:12Right?

01:51:13No, I'm, I'm, I'm not.

01:51:14I'm just checking.

01:51:16Yeah, I'm trying to, I'm trying to remember myself for like when I started, um, because

01:51:19they had issues for a while, but when did the actual, maybe late high school, but yeah,

01:51:29definitely late high school or early college.

01:51:31And then it just kind of continued from there for a while.

01:51:33It's, it's reduced some.

01:51:37Oh, it's going on.

01:51:37It's largely because I have stopped.

01:51:48I I've, I've started telling them like, that's not my place.

01:51:54And my wife has helped me with that.

01:51:57Do you know that your sister referred to your wedding day as the worst day of her life?

01:52:05I don't know.

01:52:08So she just said it to you and you don't think she said it to them?

01:52:13She probably did say it to them.

01:52:14I would imagine.

01:52:15So yeah, I did not hear her tell them, but I did not tell them.

01:52:18Why wouldn't you tell your parents?

01:52:20I mean, they're coming to you with all their problems.

01:52:21Why wouldn't you come to them with this saying, this is a big problem.

01:52:26And this is a problem by the way, mom and dad that come out of the woman you raised.

01:52:31So you fix it.

01:52:32Yeah.

01:52:32I don't, I don't really take problem.

01:52:35And my wife just said this to me.

01:52:36I don't really take problems to them.

01:52:38No, no.

01:52:39You're not taking your problem.

01:52:40You're identifying their problem.

01:52:42You raise a really nasty daughter.

01:52:44You need to fix this.

01:52:47Yeah.

01:52:48Right.

01:52:48You need to get her to apologize and you need to get her to shape up.

01:52:52And I don't know where she gets off thinking she can say this absolutely appalling stuff

01:52:55to people, but you got to fix this.

01:52:58You're the parents.

01:52:59It's your job.

01:53:00You raised her.

01:53:02So go to it.

01:53:03What would happen if you said that my dad he would see the problem, but probably not

01:53:22not do anything about it.

01:53:23As in he would know he it's his life where he hasn't been able to do anything about it

01:53:31or hasn't done anything about things.

01:53:35Okay.

01:53:35But you enable that.

01:53:38Yeah.

01:53:39By withholding problems from him.

01:53:40So you're saying to him, dad, I don't have any faith that you can be a halfway decent

01:53:45parent because a halfway decent parent, a would not raise a daughter like that.

01:53:49And B, the moment he caught whiff of something like that, he would absolutely sit down and

01:53:53have it all worked out one way or another.

01:53:57Yeah.

01:54:05Yeah, I fully agree.

01:54:15So.

01:54:20Do you recognize how different a parent you need to be than your father?

01:54:25Yeah, for sure.

01:54:27And have you sat down ever with him and talked to him about the absence of

01:54:31parenting that you experienced the absence of fatherhood?

01:54:38I don't think so.

01:54:39I think you'd remember.

01:54:40Don't don't don't hedge me now, bro.

01:54:43I think you'd remember that conversation, wouldn't you?

01:54:47I've talked to him about how my sister felt she did not have a father.

01:54:53I did not talk about myself.

01:54:56Well, we've had it.

01:54:56Why not?

01:54:57Just not directly.

01:54:58Why me?

01:54:59Why not?

01:55:01Yes, I should.

01:55:02It's the same thing where I don't.

01:55:03I don't.

01:55:04No, I'm not criticizing you.

01:55:06I'm genuinely curious.

01:55:07What?

01:55:07Why not?

01:55:10I mean, it's honest.

01:55:11I've never felt like I.

01:55:12Yeah, yeah.

01:55:13I never felt like.

01:55:18People can would care about my problems, maybe.

01:55:22And maybe maybe it's just like you're guessing, but it's your motivation.

01:55:26So only you can tell the truth about it.

01:55:28Yeah, I don't.

01:55:29I don't really know.

01:55:30I'm trying to.

01:55:31No, you do know.

01:55:32It may not be obvious to you, but you certainly know.

01:55:42So why don't you talk to your mother or your father?

01:55:44I assume that your sister's probably kind of beyond hope at this point, but

01:55:48why wouldn't you talk to your mother and your father and say.

01:55:51I don't feel like I got much parenting if that's it sounds like that's what it was.

01:55:57Yeah.

01:56:05I don't know.

01:56:07All right, let's turn to Alice.

01:56:09Alice, why does Bob not talk to his parents about deficiencies in their parenting?

01:56:15I mean, listen, you guys have kids.

01:56:17I assume that like me, if you if there's some issue with your parenting, you want

01:56:21your kids to say so, right?

01:56:23Yes.

01:56:25Okay.

01:56:26So why would you withhold that information from your parents when it's what you would

01:56:30most need to hear as a parent?

01:56:37I mean, it's uncomfortable.

01:56:39Yeah, so?

01:56:44His mom would always tell me like what a great baby and child my husband was.

01:56:51He never cried.

01:56:53He didn't eat anything.

01:56:55That's kind of depressing.

01:57:00Yeah.

01:57:03Oh, he was just so easy.

01:57:06Yeah, he gave up getting what he wants.

01:57:09And what about you, Alice?

01:57:10Have you had any conversations with your parents about issues or deficiencies?

01:57:17I have.

01:57:18And how did that go?

01:57:21Poorly.

01:57:22In what way?

01:57:24And then like, it'll go like, really horribly.

01:57:29And then there will be some type of.

01:57:33I'm sorry, commitment to do better to try harder.

01:57:43And then it just is the way it was before.

01:57:46That's mostly your mom, not your dad, right?

01:57:52It's both.

01:57:53I don't really have it with my dad so much, partly because he's an intimidating guy.

01:58:00Sorry, what do you mean?

01:58:02My dad.

01:58:06No, I know what you're talking about, but what do you mean by intimidating?

01:58:09Nobody really wants to go up to my dad and tell him what they don't like about him.

01:58:15Sorry, but what do you mean?

01:58:18He'll yell at you?

01:58:19He'll like, is he a bully?

01:58:20What do you mean?

01:58:21He can definitely be aggressive.

01:58:26So he bullies his children?

01:58:29Yeah, he definitely did.

01:58:31Well, no, still does if you're still afraid to talk to him.

01:58:39Yes, then I guess I guess I didn't.

01:58:43Because it's different because it's because I'm an adult.

01:58:47Yes, and it's physical.

01:58:49I didn't say physical.

01:58:50I said, yeah.

01:58:52He's still bullying if you can't talk to him.

01:58:57Yeah, that's.

01:58:59And what do you think would happen if you went up and say, you know, I've got a couple of issues

01:59:02with the parenting, you know, I didn't really think about them as much until I became a parent,

01:59:07but now I'm obviously parenting kind of differently.

01:59:09And, you know, there's some things that I'd like to talk about and, you know, whatever.

01:59:14He shuts it down.

01:59:15Because you did, you tried.

01:59:16I know, but then you just open it up again and you say, Dad, I really,

01:59:20I don't want you to shut this down.

01:59:21I really do want to talk about this.

01:59:23Well, then it's.

01:59:28What was it?

01:59:35Then he gets like really depressed and like, wow.

01:59:38Yeah.

01:59:39And then you say, Dad, Dad, hang on, snap out of it.

01:59:41I'm right here.

01:59:42Like, don't fall into yourself.

01:59:43Right.

01:59:43This is about me.

01:59:44Don't make it about you.

01:59:46Right.

01:59:46I already had enough of that.

01:59:47Right.

01:59:47You make it about you.

01:59:48So focus on me.

01:59:49Come on.

01:59:49Look at look at me in the eye.

01:59:50Take a deep breath.

01:59:51You'll be fine.

01:59:52It's not the end of the world.

01:59:53We just got a couple of criticisms here.

01:59:55So focus on me.

01:59:58I think it's stuff he can't come back from.

02:00:03There isn't any, there isn't any making it better.

02:00:06I think both of us think you can apologize.

02:00:11You can make restitution.

02:00:13You can get some therapy.

02:00:14You can like this tons of things you can do.

02:00:17That's true.

02:00:20Okay.

02:00:22I'm not saying I'm not saying whether you should or shouldn't have these conversations.

02:00:27I'm just saying that you need to know why you haven't.

02:00:32Yeah.

02:00:33Like I've started down them and then it's obviously a no-go zone with him completely

02:00:39unless it's about my mom and then and then you'll entertain it to an extent.

02:00:43Oh, so he's fine if you complain about your mom, just not if you have any criticisms of him.

02:00:49Yes.

02:00:49And your mom, I assume, is the same way.

02:00:53Oh, yeah.

02:00:53Okay.

02:00:54So that's that's pretty childish, right?

02:00:57Yes.

02:00:57Okay.

02:00:59So.

02:01:02You have people in your life who oppose deeply and strongly and aggressively oppose honesty.

02:01:15Yes.

02:01:17And they strongly, deeply and vehemently oppose listening to you.

02:01:24Yes.

02:01:25Both of us, yeah.

02:01:26Yeah, no, you're absolutely right.

02:01:28Both of you, right?

02:01:29So what was the big complaint?

02:01:32Look at that full circle we've come.

02:01:34What was the big complaint at Taco Bell?

02:01:38You didn't listen.

02:01:40Yeah.

02:01:42Yeah.

02:01:43Are you aware that that's where it's coming from?

02:01:47Yeah.

02:01:49Yes.

02:01:50Well, partially not.

02:01:52I mean, this is all fleshed out.

02:01:53I did say recently, I think my wife gets scared by that because she wasn't

02:01:59listened to or cared about, but I then should know that.

02:02:02No, but it's still now.

02:02:05Yeah, it is still now.

02:02:06You have opposite principles in your life, which is going to tear us all apart.

02:02:10I'm not kidding about that.

02:02:11That's serious stuff.

02:02:12This will tear us all apart.

02:02:14A man can literally save a few monsters, right?

02:02:19So what are the opposing principles?

02:02:23It's loving family if they really oppose you talking and telling the truth.

02:02:28It's loving family if they don't listen and if you tell the truth, they get upset.

02:02:33And it's loving family if you listen to people and take their concerns seriously.

02:02:39You can't have both.

02:02:42Yeah.

02:02:43You cannot have both.

02:02:45If the principle of the family of origin lasts, then you can't listen to each other.

02:02:53Because the family of origin is defined as a loving, happy family, and honesty is attacked.

02:03:01Honesty is attacked, scorned, rejected, and to some degree terrorized,

02:03:05in that you would be terrified to bring this up, right?

02:03:09Yes.

02:03:11You have to have a principle.

02:03:12I've recently been bringing some things up.

02:03:15I've recently been bringing some things up.

02:03:17More with my mom because I see her more.

02:03:20My dad's still working and not retired.

02:03:23No, come on, come on.

02:03:24Let's not.

02:03:25I'm not going with you at that level.

02:03:27You already told me you're frightened to tell your dad.

02:03:29So let's not talk about him still working.

02:03:33Listen, you guys are working.

02:03:35I have a job.

02:03:35We're still having honest conversations, right?

02:03:39It's not about working.

02:03:40Yes.

02:03:41No.

02:03:42It's about fear.

02:03:43And listen, I'm not saying you're wrong to be.

02:03:44I mean, I understand that.

02:03:46I sympathize.

02:03:46I really do.

02:03:48Yeah.

02:03:49But this is why.

02:03:50This is why.

02:03:51Sorry, go ahead.

02:03:53It's so painful when they don't care because it hurts them.

02:04:00I don't care that it hurts them.

02:04:01They're the parents.

02:04:02It hurts you, though.

02:04:03I care that it hurts you.

02:04:05And I care that I care that your children grow up with some kind of consistency.

02:04:13Yes.

02:04:13Because they're going to see these empty, avoidant, non-existent, pretend relationships

02:04:20in your families of origin.

02:04:21They're going to be surrounded by it.

02:04:22They're going to be in there, even if the people aren't over that much.

02:04:27Yeah.

02:04:27It's in your head.

02:04:28It's in your mind.

02:04:29It's in your heart.

02:04:30It's in your soul.

02:04:35What do you do?

02:04:35And they're going to see mom and dad have the expectation that we listen in this family,

02:04:42but they're embedded in extended families which do the exact opposite of listen,

02:04:47which is punish honesty.

02:04:50Yeah.

02:04:51Yeah.

02:04:51A man cannot serve and a woman cannot serve two masters.

02:04:56You have to make a choice.

02:04:58If it's totally fine for your parents to not listen to you and your sisters and siblings

02:05:03and all, then you can't blame each other for not listening.

02:05:07Because it's confusing as heck, right?

02:05:11But if listening is a value and you've got to listen,

02:05:14you have to be aware of the people who attack you for telling the truth.

02:05:17If you want to be honest with each other, you have to recognize the damage done

02:05:21by the people who attack you for telling the truth.

02:05:23I think we're surrounded by choice.

02:05:25Trying to serve two masters and it's going to be a volatile, bumpy, difficult, unpleasant ride.

02:05:34Yeah.

02:05:35And it has been.

02:05:36Right.

02:05:37And there's a war.

02:05:39There's a war between the liars and the truth tellers.

02:05:44Between those who are direct and those who punish directness.

02:05:47Between those who listen and those who attack listening and are hostile to the very active

02:05:52connection.

02:05:53It's a war.

02:05:54You got an angel on one side saying, tell the truth, be honest, be direct and listen.

02:05:58And you got a devil on the other side saying, to heck with all of that.

02:06:01Avoidance and appearance is all that matters.

02:06:06I've literally been telling, I've told one of my complaints has been to my husband that I

02:06:11struggle to connect with our kids emotionally.

02:06:15Sure.

02:06:15And it's like painful to be connected to them.

02:06:19Because you have to reach through the icy ghosts of your parents indifference.

02:06:23And your kids are on the other side of that.

02:06:26And it burns your arms.

02:06:27It scalds your arms with ice.

02:06:31I don't mean to get overly poetic, but.

02:06:34If you haven't confronted.

02:06:35I try really hard to do it anyway, but it's like, it's hard.

02:06:39It is.

02:06:40It doesn't feel like it should be this hard to connect with them when they want it and

02:06:45they need it.

02:06:47Right.

02:06:47But here's the thing.

02:06:49Do you know why you can't connect with them?

02:06:51Other than my silly poetry, right?

02:06:53Do you know why you can't connect with them?

02:06:57No, not fundamentally.

02:06:59Okay.

02:06:59I'll tell you why.

02:07:00And I'm absolutely certain of this, right?

02:07:03Doesn't mean I'm right.

02:07:04I'm just telling you.

02:07:04I'm certain.

02:07:05The reason you can't connect with them is okay.

02:07:08Would it benefit your children for you to connect with them better?

02:07:13Absolutely.

02:07:13Okay.

02:07:14Would it benefit you to connect with your children better?

02:07:18Absolutely.

02:07:19Would it benefit you as a married couple to connect with each other better?

02:07:24A hundred percent.

02:07:25Okay.

02:07:25So much.

02:07:25So if you're not doing something that benefits everyone in the immediate environment,

02:07:30it must be to the negative of someone else.

02:07:35So who suffers if you genuinely connect with your children and each other?

02:07:41Our extended families.

02:07:42Yeah.

02:07:43And why?

02:07:44Started with my sister before we got married.

02:07:48Right.

02:07:49And then just continue on.

02:07:50All my family members, the rest of yours.

02:07:53Yeah.

02:07:54So what happens if you genuinely connect with each other and you get through that ice wall?

02:08:00What happens if you genuinely connect with your children?

02:08:02What happens to your relationship with your parents?

02:08:07Well, it's just hollow and awful.

02:08:12Well, you will finally realize everything they withheld from you.

02:08:18Once you give it to your children, this is why it's so hard to improve.

02:08:21Once you give everything in your heart to your children,

02:08:25you realize everything in your parents' heart that was withheld from you, and it hurts.

02:08:30And it makes you angry because it's actually fun and great and easy.

02:08:34I get mad at my parents because, I mean, I, you guys have heard, I'm sure shows with my

02:08:39daughter, like she's, she's so much fun.

02:08:40We get along so well.

02:08:41We enjoy each other's company so much and it's so easy and so enjoyable.

02:08:46And it's just like, why, why, why overcomplicate things with all this distance and mess and

02:08:51deception and appearance and like, just enjoy each other's company and do good.

02:08:57So once you realize how pleasant and easy and positive it is to genuinely connect with

02:09:02your children, there will be both anger and sorrow.

02:09:05Sorrow at everything that was missing from you.

02:09:07And it's avoiding that sorrow that has you avoid your children.

02:09:11But, but you don't have the, you don't have the right to avoid that sorrow.

02:09:15Like you have to just embrace it.

02:09:17You connect with your children.

02:09:18It will, it will, it will cost the illusion of connection with your parents.

02:09:24Because once you genuinely connect, once you genuinely connect with your children, you

02:09:29realize how little you're connected to others and how ridiculous and shallow and nonsense

02:09:36and who cares.

02:09:37That stuff is, I mean, I hate to say it, but it is, uh, it is a fact, right?

02:09:41I'd have to let, I'd have to let the illusion of what I wish we had.

02:09:46Mm-hmm.

02:09:48Right.

02:09:49And because you've chosen to have children, you owe them your whole hearts.

02:09:54Yes.

02:09:55No reservation.

02:09:55And if, if it makes you burst into tears, you know, mom's just got a bit of an old ache

02:10:01in her heart.

02:10:02Nothing to do with you.

02:10:03Mom's just got a bit of an old ache in her heart.

02:10:05Nothing to do with you.

02:10:07Right.

02:10:07It's fine.

02:10:08It's fine.

02:10:09Yes.

02:10:10It's fine.

02:10:10Yes.

02:10:12You owe them your whole hearts and whatever has to be sacrificed in order to connect with

02:10:17each other and your children and God, by the way, whatever has to be sacrificed to connect

02:10:26with love, connection and virtue must be sacrificed.

02:10:31Because the alternative is just a massive net loss to humanity as a whole, to your marriage

02:10:36and to your innocent children who did not choose any of this and are relying upon you

02:10:42to break through that wall.

02:10:45You would have the same problems as we do if we don't.

02:10:48Well, yeah, I mean, there'll be better.

02:10:50Obviously you're having these conversations and this is to your immense and enormous.

02:10:55I mean, I can't tell you guys how much I admire you for what it's worth.

02:10:59I mean, the honor and the nobility of having this kind of conversation is a treasure of

02:11:07the ages.

02:11:08Honestly, it's a treasure of the universe to have this kind of conversation.

02:11:12So your kids will be far better off than you were, but why not make them perfect?

02:11:18Why not leap?

02:11:20Why should it take five generations when it only has to take one?

02:11:24So we press on and we connect and that means also connecting with the anger.

02:11:33Your sister has treated you abominably and you have every right to be angry at that and

02:11:39the anger is what will keep you safe.

02:11:43Not from her, but just from people like that.

02:11:46And also, your just anger at those who do deep wrongs to you, your children need to

02:11:54see it.

02:11:57Because that's what will protect them from predators in the future.

02:12:03You know, the ball rocks need to see that none shall pass bridge thing, right?

02:12:08And your kids need to see that you don't sacrifice your integrity for the sake of

02:12:15the approval of people who are kind of bullies.

02:12:18You don't flinch before corruption.

02:12:21You don't appease.

02:12:22You don't, like, I mean, you make irrational compromises with the world because we all

02:12:25have to live in a place that does seem a little bit like hell from time to time.

02:12:30But you don't voluntarily sacrifice your integrity, your virtue, your connection,

02:12:34and your love.

02:12:36And when you are connected with each other, everything is so easy in the family.

02:12:43Stuff like the Taco Bell thing doesn't come up because you're connected and you trust

02:12:50and you are not isolated, right?

02:12:52This kind of upset and resentment comes from a feeling of deep isolation and a feeling

02:12:58of not being protected and a feeling of not being considered and a feeling of not being

02:13:02defended and that loyalty is missing.

02:13:04It's a kind of isolation that arises from neglect.

02:13:08And it seems to me that that was one of the main things that you both experienced as children.

02:13:11It was a kind of emotional neglect, a lack of connection.

02:13:15And so these things swell and grow because they hit these very deep wounds and cords

02:13:21of, oh, people don't care about me.

02:13:23Oh, my feelings never get taken into consideration.

02:13:26Oh, you know, and that's just a huge lack of trust.

02:13:29Sorry, go ahead.

02:13:31Yeah, yeah, we both had very emotionally disconnected mothers, for sure.

02:13:36Right, right, right, right.

02:13:39And so it's easy to feel that nobody's taking care of you emotionally because nobody took

02:13:46care of you emotionally.

02:13:48Yeah.

02:13:48I mean, that's not a fantasy, but it's not differentiated between past and present.

02:13:54And the only thing that differentiates the past and the present is virtue, is that commitment

02:13:59to virtue, connect with each other, right?

02:14:02So, and the real-time relationship stuff, right?

02:14:04That's why it's so powerful.

02:14:06If you're upset because you don't go to Taco Bell, you say, I feel upset that we didn't

02:14:11go to Taco Bell, as opposed to, well, you never listened to me.

02:14:13I'm not saying that's what you said, but some escalating language or whatever, just

02:14:17to kind of cover up the hurt.

02:14:18Yes.

02:14:18And I say, I feel hurt that we didn't go to Taco Bell, which doesn't make sense.

02:14:24My level of hurt doesn't match.

02:14:26I didn't get food.

02:14:27I only got food 15 minutes later, right?

02:14:29But I am really upset about it.

02:14:30I'm not saying it's your fault.

02:14:31I'm just saying that I am upset, and I don't know why, and I'm curious.

02:14:34What do you think, right?

02:14:35That's a connecting conversation, right?

02:14:37How could you not take me?

02:14:38I'm hungry, and you knew I was hungry.

02:14:40That's all an avoidant conversation.

02:14:43Wow.

02:14:45Yeah.

02:14:47You're just covering up the wound and lurching along, like you're not bleeding out.

02:14:52Yeah.

02:14:53Yeah.

02:14:55That's very helpful.

02:14:56All right.

02:14:57How are we doing?

02:14:58Are we someplace useful?

02:15:01I think so.

02:15:05Do you think we should start with connecting with our children, no matter how much it hurts?

02:15:13So, you know, I don't tell people what to do, right?

02:15:15That's true.

02:15:16Everyone tries.

02:15:17I do feel like we're kind of, like, drowning.

02:15:22Well, I mean, certainly your children are owed your whole heart.

02:15:27I mean, you owe that to your children by having them, right?

02:15:30Absolutely.

02:15:31I would certainly, you know, if your children are upsetting you, you say,

02:15:35I'm upset.

02:15:36It's not your fault, right?

02:15:37This is bothering me, but it's nothing to do with you, probably, or whatever it is, right?

02:15:40So just focus on that relentless honesty with people, because you guys, like, and I understand

02:15:47this, I'm the same way, right?

02:15:48Like, we were so punished for honesty.

02:15:50It's like, hey, why don't you just stick your hand in that giant furnace, right?

02:15:54It feels like crazy.

02:15:56It feels almost suicidal to be honest and direct.

02:16:00But if you just work on the honesty and directness, that's the best way to banish these ghosts,

02:16:05I think.

02:16:05Yes.

02:16:07Yes.

02:16:08Well, I've been really trying to be more honest and direct, and I feel like life's gotten

02:16:14harder with my family in some ways, which has then been impacting our family.

02:16:19You're the more honest.

02:16:20Yeah.

02:16:23Well, you can't be honest and direct with your family, because they'll attack and punish

02:16:27and ostracize you for it, won't they?

02:16:31How do we do?

02:16:32Kind of.

02:16:35Right now, my mom's at the point where she's like, I'm so sorry that you feel like I don't

02:16:40listen to you.

02:16:42And then she'll be like, oh, that's not an apology.

02:16:43No, no, that's not an apology.

02:16:45But yeah, then she'll self-correct it, and she'll be like, oh, I'm sorry that I don't

02:16:49listen to you.

02:16:51Okay, so then she needs to tell you why she doesn't listen to you, right?

02:16:54So, you know, mom, your homework assignment is go figure out why, figure out what happened

02:16:59in your childhood, come back and talk to me.

02:17:00You could talk to this guy in Canada.

02:17:02He's not too bad at this kind of stuff, right?

02:17:03So, right, but she's got to then...

02:17:06If you thought our conversation had some terrifying things in it, you did not even

02:17:10want to go there.

02:17:11I never flinch from going there.

02:17:14It's a blessing and a curse.

02:17:16So, no, but she then owes you some understanding.

02:17:21As to why?

02:17:22Because if she doesn't understand why she doesn't listen to you, how can she possibly

02:17:25commit to listening to you?

02:17:28Yeah.

02:17:29I mean, we just did two hours on Taco Bell.

02:17:34Right?

02:17:34No, because why is this coming up?

02:17:37Because we need to go deep into the roots, and your mom says, well, I don't know how

02:17:41to do it.

02:17:41Well, then therapy is, you know, she's not even working.

02:17:44She's got time for therapy.

02:17:45She can work on that kind of stuff.

02:17:46She can do, you know, workbooks.

02:17:48There's tons of stuff she can do to try and dig into the roots of what the issues are.

02:17:52And, you know, your dad can do the same thing.

02:17:55And, you know, like your parents on Bob's side, your parents need to deal with the sister

02:17:59stuff.

02:18:00And, you know, you'd say you don't have much of a relationship with your sister.

02:18:07I'm just telling you for myself, and maybe this is just because I'm a couple decades

02:18:11older, I don't do pretend relationships.

02:18:15I don't.

02:18:17I don't do it.

02:18:17Like, you get me, or go somewhere else.

02:18:21Like, I'm direct and honest, or I just don't do pretend relationships.

02:18:26Because to me, that's like stealing from the great gift of life, to pantomime, to mime,

02:18:31to pretend, to lie, to self-erase.

02:18:33You know, God has given us this great gift of existence.

02:18:36And to me, like, you know how suicide is such a sin because it's rejecting God's gift of

02:18:41existence.

02:18:42Well, so is lying.

02:18:43So is dishonesty.

02:18:44So is pretend relationships.

02:18:46You are denying God's great gift, or the universe's great gift of existence, to self-erase

02:18:51in order to conform with what?

02:18:52With nothing.

02:18:53With bullying.

02:18:53With emptiness.

02:18:55With avoidance.

02:18:56With rejection.

02:18:57With a lack of love.

02:18:59That's a sin, in my view.

02:19:02We've got this great gift of existence.

02:19:03We must use it to connect, and be honest, and fulfill the commandments.

02:19:10Thou shalt not bear false witness.

02:19:12Well, you were witnesses to your childhood, and you were witnesses to your parents' deficiencies,

02:19:16and you are withholding correction from them.

02:19:20It is a sin to withhold correction from people who've done wrong.

02:19:27Yeah, they fight it.

02:19:28Yeah, so what?

02:19:28We all know that.

02:19:29Everybody fights correction from sin.

02:19:31That's human nature.

02:19:35But you're not doing anything loving by withholding the truth from those around you.

02:19:39Now, maybe they will get mad.

02:19:40Maybe they'll storm off.

02:19:41Maybe they'll storm off for a year, or 10 years, or forever.

02:19:45But joining them in their sin by falsifying your entire history does not make the world

02:19:55a better place.

02:19:56Not for your children.

02:19:57Not for your marriage.

02:19:57Not for the future.

02:20:03Yeah.

02:20:03Yep.

02:20:05All right.

02:20:05Will you keep me posted about how it's going?

02:20:08Yeah.

02:20:08Yeah, thank you very much.

02:20:09Will you take a big hug and a bow for the majesty of this conversation?

02:20:13I really do appreciate it.

02:20:14You guys did fantastically.

02:20:16Thank you.

02:20:17Thank you.

02:20:18You're very welcome.

02:20:19And keep me posted, all right?

02:20:21Definitely.

02:20:22Thank you for your time.

02:20:23Good night.

02:20:24Yep.

02:20:24Good night.

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