Armed with nothing more than a tech device, online bullies are wreaking havoc on the digital landscape. Cyberbullying is on the rise, leaving many victims scarred and authorities scrambling for solutions. In this fifth episode of Life & The City, hosts Aida Ahmad and Farid Wahab dive deep into this pressing issue.
Joining the conversation is journalist Wani Muthiah, a seasoned observer of the digital world. Together, they unpack the complex nature of cyberbullying, exploring its impact, the challenges faced by those on the frontline, and potential paths to a safer online environment.
The Life & The City podcast series, which airs fortnightly, addresses current and social issues impacting urbanites. It is available on www.thestar.com.my/metro and on The Star's social media platforms (@thestaronline).
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Joining the conversation is journalist Wani Muthiah, a seasoned observer of the digital world. Together, they unpack the complex nature of cyberbullying, exploring its impact, the challenges faced by those on the frontline, and potential paths to a safer online environment.
The Life & The City podcast series, which airs fortnightly, addresses current and social issues impacting urbanites. It is available on www.thestar.com.my/metro and on The Star's social media platforms (@thestaronline).
WATCH MORE: https://thestartv.com/c/news
SUBSCRIBE: https://cutt.ly/TheStar
LIKE: https://fb.com/TheStarOnline
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NewsTranscript
00:00Welcome everyone to the fifth episode of Life in the City podcast by Star Media Group.
00:10We are back again today. I'm your host Aida Ahmad and with me is my co-host Farid Wahab.
00:17Hi everyone. It's a pleasure to be here again as always and we are here with another pressing topic today Aida.
00:23What are we talking about today?
00:24Yes, today will be interesting and we are discussing the much talked about topic at the moment which is cyberbullying.
00:34And joining us today is our colleague Wani Mutia, one of our senior journalists,
00:40who has written about this topic several times in her citicism column which is a weekly column in Star Metro.
00:49Welcome to our podcast Wani.
00:51Thank you both of you. Thank you for having me.
00:54Yes. Please tell us about this serious issue that's plaguing our society today.
01:00You see, currently the main problem is that people are able to go faceless onto social media and to carry out the dastardly act of bullying, you know.
01:15The problem is nothing can be done because nobody knows who they are.
01:18Right. So, one of the things I think that's part of this problem is there's no clear definition of cyberbullying, right?
01:30And there are no existing legal provisions specifically to tackle cyberbullying cases in Malaysia,
01:37which makes it imperative for a new law to address it. I think this is what's been going on right now, right?
01:43Yes.
01:44Okay.
01:45So, besides having a new law to address cyberbullying, I think it is very important for a clear definition of cyberbullying to be also formulated.
01:55Unless this is done, there will be instances where wrongdoers will be hiding behind this cyberbullying thing, you know.
02:03Correct.
02:04Especially when they are called out for something that they have done and they will cry, oh, I'm being cyberbullied.
02:10Like, let me give you an example. I do animal rescue and there are a lot of perpetrators, you know, who abuse animals.
02:17They are pets and also street animals. So, how do we tackle this?
02:21What we do, if we have videos and photographs and all that, we put it up on social media.
02:26And this is how we gather people to lodge mass reports at the Veterinary Services Department's website.
02:36Because one of the requirements is that we attach a photo or a picture or a video with our complaint.
02:44So, will this also be considered cyberbullying?
02:48Right.
02:49You know, like recently we had this case of this woman who was a hoarder.
02:54And every time poodles are found, she will reach out and say, I can give this poodle a home.
03:03And she lives in a PPR flat and she had dozens of poodles.
03:07Right.
03:08And in the photo, we noticed that two of the poodles had their mouths taped.
03:14Right.
03:15That is an act of cruelty, sheer cruelty.
03:18Yeah.
03:19So, we put up the picture and we told, without exactly saying where she lived.
03:24And we also uploaded her Facebook profile, asking people to lodge complaints as well as urging them to not give her any more poodles in case she offers to adopt.
03:36So, someone came up and said, oh, this is doxing, you know.
03:39Yeah.
03:40So, there has to be clear definition.
03:42This is definitely not cyberbullying.
03:44Right.
03:45Because we are alerting the public to not give this person any more dogs, you know, if she wants to.
03:52Because she's already hoarding dozens in a PPR flat.
03:55Yeah.
03:56So, clearly, there's a gray area here.
03:58And like we said, there's no definition.
04:00Currently, the only laws available are the Communications and Multimedia Act, Penal Code Defamation Act and the Minor Offenses Act.
04:08Now, we are all aware of what happened just this last month.
04:14A recent case where a young social media influencer died by suicide after being bullied on the TikTok platform.
04:22Now, the outcome of these recent cases here was shocking, wasn't it?
04:27The last month we saw two people who were charged in the lower courts for communication offenses against this social media influencer, which led to her taking her own life, unfortunately.
04:39One of them posted lewd comments and was charged under Section 233 of the Communications and Multimedia Act, which carries a fine of RM50,000 or imprisonment.
04:51And the second charged for posting lewd comments with the intention to outrage the modesty of the late influencer's mother under Section 509 of the Penal Code, which provides for imprisonment of up to five years or a fine or both.
05:05Now, the other person was fined RM100 in default of seven days imprisonment for deliberately uttering vulgarities with the intention to incite anger through her social media account.
05:17Now, she was charged under Section 14 of the Minor Offenses Act, which provides a maximum fine of RM100.
05:23Now, she paid the fine.
05:25However, after that, there was a big backlash by the public who said the punishment was maybe like a slap on the wrist.
05:37Now, obviously, this is based on what one lawyer said as he held a watching brief in court for the late influencer's family.
05:46Because the victim, he said, because the victim had already passed away and cannot testify in court regarding the magnitude of the obscenities hurled at her, the police could not forward more serious charges against the bullies.
06:04I guess we can all agree that these penalties are, and this is what the lawyer said, insufficient to deter the perpetrators.
06:14Now, in a star special report which came out yesterday on cyberbullying titled, They Said They Were Going to Kill Me, the rise of the digital age has introduced a more pervasive and relentless form of such behavior.
06:29And digital spaces enable and encourage people to conceal themselves, like what you said earlier, Wani, behind a mask of anonymity, creating a perfect environment for cyberbullies.
06:41Now, just for context, it was reported that in February, the MCMC recorded about 3,200 complaints related to cyberbullying, but the number of unheard victims could be higher.
06:56A WHO study spanning 44 countries stated that 16% of children aged 11 to 15 reported being cyberbullied in 2022, and this is an increase from 13% in 2018.
07:11Last year, 1,763 items were removed by social media platforms such as TikTok, Facebook, and Instagram, following requests by MCMC, which also identified Facebook as a primary platform for cyberbullying, with 1,400 complaints followed by WhatsApp, Instagram, and TikTok NX.
07:35Now, the largest number of complaints reported last year were from individuals aged between 13 and 40. Notably, 51% were females. Also, a study by the Malaysian Mental Health Association found that at least 20% of youth suicides in recent years were linked to cyberbullying.
07:55This is some shocking statistics, Farid.
07:59Yes, Aida, and thank you for the very comprehensive rundown. I think we can all agree that cyberbullying is an incredibly huge topic, and it is something that we come across every day because we all are on social media platforms.
08:12So, what we will do today to help our listeners better understand or better frame the topic we are talking about, we will be breaking down this discussion into several parts, and hopefully it will help our listeners to better follow the discussion today, Aida.
08:31Maybe let's start with you, Wani. What constitutes cyberbullying?
09:02They do not give you an opportunity to speak for yourself, and you are made to come to that live session by way of phone calls. So, they go beyond the social media platform.
09:16So, as I said, this is all planned, whatever you may call it. And they get people to call you over the telephone many, many times. And most of these who are bullied are mostly young women. So, they live with their families.
09:35So, out of sheer desperation, they come to the live session because they don't want to be, and not only do they call you, they also call up your relatives. So, all this harassment on the telephone.
09:48So, out of desperation, when they come to the live session, they are muted, meaning they are not allowed to speak, and they are made to watch their families, especially female family members, their mothers and sisters and all that, including them, being lambasted, being abused with vulgarities, and their photos are also uploaded.
10:08That's the devastating power of online harassment, right? And not only Malaysians are becoming reliant on social media for everything from personal relationships to doing business and sharing information, right?
10:24So, just to add on to what Wani just said just now, it's not just that they are taking part in an active move to intimidate someone. They're actually mobilising other people to do it. They're using the platforms to get other people to join in, and this is what we're saying.
10:42But anyway, I've also written about this topic before, and while I was writing about this topic, I came across this definition by Oxford. It's rather simplistic. We all know, in the real world, it's not as simple as this, but just for the sake of facilitating our discussion today, I'll read out what the definition says.
10:59It says that cyberbullying is the use of electronic communication to bully a person, typically by sending messages of an intimidating or threatening nature. But if you're going by the example Wani just gave, it's more than that. There are actually so many people involved in it.
11:19And Malaysia also had two suicide cases of cyberbullying victims involving schoolchildren, reported in 2019 and 2020. And the global statistics among 28 countries indicated that Malaysia was ranked sixth in the world and second among the Asian countries in cyberbullying.
11:39This is according to a paper titled Cyberbullying in Malaysia, an analysis of the existing laws that was published in December 2022 under the International Journal of Law, Government and Communication.
11:52Also, the internet penetration in Malaysia is relatively high for a country whose population stands at about 34.7 million people. Now, as of January this year, around 33.59 million internet users have been reported, putting our country's internet penetration rate at 97.4% of the total population. That's quite a high number.
12:22Also, according to an online monitoring company, the number of social media user identities has increased 20% here. And TikTok is the second most favorite social media platform.
12:38I think it's also because now everybody can afford to have a smartphone. That is the biggest problem, you know. And I noticed, you know, I've been following the bullying sessions on TikTok. And I noticed that a lot of these people who conduct these bullying sessions, they come from very simple backgrounds.
13:01And most of them have had little exposure. They don't mix with people of other races and backgrounds. And they are like, as I said, you know, not exposed to many things, you know. And I spoke to a psychologist, you know, in fact, I wrote an article about it, about people, you know, who participate in these bullying sessions.
13:26She said that if you really dwell upon, if you really get to know them, you will know that they have stories of their own. And this is a platform for them to sort of exert their frustrations, their anger. And also, some of them, it gives them a sense of importance.
13:45Because in reality, they feel very, very small. But here they have the upper hand, you know. And I believe that so too, because there was one incident by the same group, you know, this was the main bullying group. They were actually bullying a lawyer, because they did not like her professional advice that she offered on TikTok.
14:09And when they were doing it, one of the bullies actually said, well, I'm also educated. I worked in a bank. And, you know, and I studied this and that. So, he was like enforcing the fact that he was educated, you know. And I saw a lot of low self-esteem.
14:25A projection of low self-esteem there. So, a lot of them are like that.
14:55Yeah, as an example, you know, I wrote an article in 1995. And there was this person who was displeased with that article. He still sends me emails, you know, lambasting me.
15:19It's been how many years now? My former boss, June Wong, and I still get emails from him. So, initially, it was really intense, you know. So, at that time, of course, we did not have all these social media platforms. So, it was via email. So, you had the choice whether to read his email or not. But he's still sending us emails, you know.
15:39Nowadays, the articles we post, they are available on Facebook, available on social media platforms. So, when people put up a negative comment, it's not only available to us. Other people can also see that comment. So, Wani, maybe you can give us a bit more, offer us a bit more of your insight. In your opinion, how does cyberbullying differ from traditional bullying?
16:02As I said, you know, traditional bullying, when you say traditional bullying, are you talking about two people confronting each other face to face?
16:12It could be in a classroom.
16:15You see, I feel it constitutes bullying when the other person is not able to defend himself. See, in face-to-face bullying and all that, of course, this person can defend himself. If he chooses not to defend himself, there will be others, you know, who can come and confront this person and say, hey, you are bullying, you know, stop it and all that.
16:36And you can also initiate action, you know, those in the position to initiate action can do so. In the old traditional email bullying, it's your choice. You can just delete the email.
16:46Correct. So, the main differences between cyberbullying and traditional bullying is the platform used, right? The scope and reach, as in 24-7, like cyberbullying can happen anytime, anywhere, or a specific time and place, which goes back to probably what we all experienced in the schoolyard, being bullied when we were kids.
17:08I came across this one screen, I think it was a quote, the kind of quotes people share on social media, and I came across this quote and I found it quite interesting. I don't know who said it initially, but it read something like this, people are getting too comfortable saying things without getting punched in the face.
17:26So, I think the point is this, for me cyberbullying is this, if, think about it this way, if what you're saying, if what you plan on saying, would you say that in real life? If you would not, chances are that's probably a form of cyberbullying. So, best to keep that comment to yourself.
17:45Because the screen is the protector, right? We can bark all we want.
18:15And her daughter's pictures, her mother's photos and so on. But this woman is a tough cookie, you know, she fought back. They even deleted her account, you know, she had hundreds of thousands of followers in which she sold her products.
18:28They reported her account?
18:29Yeah, they reported her account, mass report, they do that as well. So, this lady had a chance to meet this person, the person who was fined 100 ringgit, to meet her face to face. And she says, in real life, she's not that aggressive.
18:46Right.
18:48She's very aggressive on social media. So, she said, in real life, she was not aggressive at all. So, this is a double identity that probably lead, you know.
18:59So, on that note, what are the different forms of cyberbullying? There's harassment, there's doxing, what else is there? I found something interesting. Exclusion, the act of leaving someone out of a situation deliberately.
19:15For example, a teenager being left out of message threads or group conversations that involve mutual friends. Now, back then, before social media, we were just ousted, right?
19:27Now, I have friends who are parents to young children and this is happening so often, right?
19:36I think doxing is very common. I recently, I think just as early as last year, decided to get on X, to have an account on X. And every day, I would come across post people, people posting other people's accounts, other people's photos and saying this and that.
19:53And for me, the danger with that is that even though you think you're justified, I mean, it's nice to be on the, when you are on the moral high house, but what happens when you're on the receiving end of that?
20:04Anybody can come up with a post and claim, oh, this person has done this and that. And, you know, and before you could even defend yourself, you could be sleeping at the time when that post was made.
20:14And you could wake up eight hours later to find your name has been smeared online. And so how are you going to clear your name then? So by then, the damage has been done. So I think doxing is a real concern, a real threat.
20:25I think people are turning into online vigilantes, taking matters into their own hands and saying, I don't agree with this person. I'm going to share his profile, their profile, and then I'm going to get my followers to chastise this person.
20:37I think doxing is a real, real problem based on my personal experience. How about you, Oney?
20:42As I said, you know, it also depends. If they are motiveless villains, you know, that means they're doing this without any motive simply because they don't like the way the person looks or they don't like the person for any particular reason or whatever, then I think it's dangerous.
20:57But as I said, you know, in certain circumstances, like in our animal rescue and all that, we are forced to expose that person that way. Otherwise, like, for instance, recently, somebody was trashing his husky in his apartment and somebody living across from him actually videoed it and it was put up on social media.
21:19And I think some people could tell who he was. So that is necessary, you know, that is necessary to push the authorities to act. Because all of us know that when it comes to animal welfare and all that, authorities are very, very slow. So what constitutes doxing?
21:35I think under certain circumstances, there is no choice, you know, it has to be done. But when somebody is called out and their particulars are put out for no apparent reason, just for the purpose of bullying, then it becomes a very serious problem.
21:52Just because you disagree with someone.
21:53Yeah, you disagree with somebody.
21:55Yeah, I think that's a nice way of putting it.
22:00In fact, you know, I, on TikTok, and I've had this account for a very long time, but I've just started using it the last few months. And within weeks, I got tangled up with this crowd. And they did, you know, say things like, what I was, what do you call, suspended by my employer, and all that, which was untrue.
22:27Do you all remember being suspended? No, being suspended and all that, no. So that went around. But so it was up to me whether I wanted to counter it, or I did not want to, but I didn't, you know, because they say I was suspended, but then my bylines are coming out.
22:43Yeah.
22:44Continuously.
22:45Sometimes it can be a bit too much. People say, oh, if it's not true, you should deny it. But if people hurl 10,000 allegations at me a day, I can't be spending my 24 hours just denying things. Sometimes it's just best to tune it out and say, you know what, you're not worth it.
22:59And, you know, we question how widespread exactly is cyberbullying in Malaysia, according to another paper under the Journal of Cybersecurity in 2021.
23:13Now, according to a survey conducted by MCMC, involving 14,000 school students, 70% of the respondents admitted to having been harassed online through improper pictures or messages posted and being called mean names.
23:28Meanwhile, statistics provided by MYSERT, the Malaysia Computer Emergency Response Team of Cybersecurity Malaysia, show that they received 260 reports on cyber harassment cases in 2019. That's a lot.
23:45Yeah. And another case involving someone taking their own life, a 16-year-old teenager who died by suicide after her Instagram followers voted in a poll that she should pass away.
24:01Apparently, on May 13, 2019, this girl jumped to her death from a third-floor apartment in Sarawak. She posted on Instagram an Instagram story earlier, asking her followers to choose whether she should live or die. This is dark, Wani.
24:18And the problem is, what you mentioned earlier, there could be fake accounts, right? And so how do we find these people? That's the question.
24:29The question is whether MCMC can identify them quickly enough. And there must be some kind of a mechanism put in place. In cases of extreme cyber bullying, the victim or those who want to help the victim should be able to reach out to a particular agency or, you know, they should have some online, like how some departments have online complaints mechanism and all that for you to complain with evidence, you know.
24:57Like what happened to Rajeshwari on TikTok. Many of these people were faceless. So you don't even know who they are. And they use multiple accounts.
25:09Right.
25:11So we now need a quick mechanism to trace them, perhaps through their IP addresses. And now even after these people have been arrested and charged and fined, new groups are coming up on TikTok.
25:28It's just spawning, right?
25:30They don't seem to be able to understand that what they are doing is wrong. And currently there is this person who is doing what those arrested people did, you know. It's a continuance. And it makes me think that because they are simple people, they don't understand the gravity of the situation. So that is why they are going on and on and on.
25:56I can't help either. As you were reading out the facts, it sounds to me like a lot of people who became victims were female. At least disproportionate number of victims are female.
26:06Speaking of demographics, which groups tend to become victims the most, in your opinion?
26:13This is what I found, Farid, on Meltwater. The most significant reach is among younger populations, namely between the ages of 25 and 34, with 17.9% male and 15% female in this group of users.
26:33Close behind are the 18 to 24-year-olds, with men making up 11% of the percentage and women 12.9%. I think we can safely say wani. I mean, we see a lot of youths being targeted.
26:53Based on these statistics, the possibility of influencing them is really high. Following that, there is some notable participation among the 35 to 44 age group.
27:13These TikTok sessions are normally adults, in their 20s and beyond. The bullies as well as the victims. I believe due to cultural conditioning, women tend to get frightened when they are bullied this way.
27:34So they adhere to all the conditions that are stipulated by the bullies. You have to come here at this hour, and they are there, you know, on their live sessions. You have to do this to ask, seek forgiveness, and they comply.
27:47Because I suppose due to cultural conditioning, they are afraid that the intimidation will go to their family members, their relatives, you know?
27:57Yeah, that's concerning. Actually, I've never heard of this TikTok live session that people organise, you know? It sounds like not a good experience at all to be in.
28:07It's always in the wee hours of the morning.
28:09That's right, yeah.
28:11Okay. I'm not surprised that, you know, women tend to form a disproportionate number of victims, you know? I think that, I don't want to say patriarchy, but yeah, I definitely think that plays into it.
28:25You know, I think people tend to see women as more submissive and therefore easier targets to become cyberbullies, I mean to be bullied on online platforms.
28:35It is actually what is said during the bullying, you know? So they are, what do you call, verbally molested. So they are verbally molested, you know?
28:46These people who are bullying make comments about their physical attributes, about their privates, you know? So as I said, they are verbally molested.
28:57So they tend to back off. And women become easy targets because women get easily intimidated when such an attack is levelled on them, you know?
29:07I don't think women are the only one, but I think as a man, if someone said those things about me, I'll probably, you know, crumble too.
29:14Yeah, so I mean, clearly cyberbullying affects people's self-esteem and mental health. I mean, the thing is what we mentioned earlier, without knowing who the perpetrator is, and the absence of direct contact, there will be a greater effect on the victim's emotional stress and their thoughts.
29:36What do you guys think?
30:07They have no specific motive other than intimidating you. But what I was told that this particular group are also, they can be paid to intimidate somebody.
30:21Paid?
30:22Yeah, they can be paid, you know? So they are like, what you call, cyberbully assassins. They assassinate your character, they can be paid to do so. So that is also one of the suspicions and the allegations that's going on now.
30:38Right. I think we can get to our second part of this topic regarding the approach to content moderation, right? What do you guys think? What responsibilities do social media and tech companies have in preventing cyberbullying?
30:53I think they have a huge responsibility because I think it's their platform and they are the ones maintaining it. So the kinds of activities that happen on them happen under their watch. So I think they do have a huge responsibility.
31:08They can't just say, you know, I think it's common to hear that, like, look, we can't control what people do here. We can't control what people say. But the fact of the matter is, this is happening on your platform. So something needs to be done on your end to make sure that people don't abuse each other and you don't facilitate that abuse.
31:25Right. What do you think, Wani?
31:27I think they should do something, perhaps, you know, to bar all live sessions past midnight.
31:34Oh, okay.
31:35You know, because all this bullying takes place during the wee hours of the morning. So they should, you know, like maybe perhaps from midnight to 6am, no live sessions, you know. So that I think would considerably help as well.
31:49Okay.
31:50So that was the thought that was playing in my mind every time that I witnessed this. Because I stayed up many nights, you know, and many mornings watching what was going on. So that was a thought that played in my mind. I thought that, you know, these platform operators and owners should actually bar live sessions from midnight to at least 6 or 7am.
32:13That's an interesting idea. What do you think?
32:17I'm not entirely sure what to think about that. Because I think what they would probably say is that what if it involves people from multiple countries, then there was a different time zone, then that would be, you know, that would create practical difficulties on their part.
32:33Correct. I think that brings us to your question on how effective are the current measures, right?
32:39Yeah. So I, last year, I wrote about this topic and I had the pleasure of sitting down with this official from PDRN. She handles complaints related to TR issues. I also had the pleasure to sit down with one top official from MCMC.
32:54So the thing they told me is that when you become victims, the first thing you have to do is that you have to, number one, you have to take the screenshot, the links, and then PDRN will forward that report to the MCMC.
33:12They'll produce the timestamp and then they'll see what they can do from there. But I think there's another sinister aspect here that I think a lot of content moderation approach by social media platforms are failing to grasp.
33:27One thing that was raised to me by MCMC was that during the general election, 15th general election campaign, there were a lot of posts, there were a lot of content circulating showing images of curries.
33:41Some people, of course, reported this content, but they did not get taken down. Because in the eyes of these platforms, these are just images of an object. But to the Malaysian public, they carried a certain insinuation, they carried a certain connotation, which I think these media platforms, these social media platforms failed to grasp, failed to understand.
33:59So they did not remove this content. So I think cultural sensitivity, being able to understand the society in which you operate in, is something that these media platforms still have a long way to go, in my opinion.
34:13True, because sometimes they remove innocent content, but the ones that must be removed is left there, you know. So this happens all the time. Like once I just commented on TikTok, someone, there's this guy, he was saying this and that, it was a Malay exchange, you know.
34:32Young boy, you know, he was saying, and he made an error, I said, taklah boboi, bukan macam itu. That was removed. And I didn't say, I don't see what's wrong, you know, this was a boy, you know. So I told him, taklah boboi, bukan macam itu. That was the only comment and it was removed.
34:47I myself have reported a number of posts and comments that were made in kolokil Malay, you know, like social media people don't spell out the full words. And eventually I got a feedback saying, wait, this did not violate any of our community guidelines. And I suspect the reason why they did not find it a violation was because they didn't understand what was written there.
35:05It's just context, cultural context. This brings us to the next part of our conversation, which are the existing limitations to enforcing penalties on cyberbullying. We talk about legal repercussions for cyberbullying in Malaysia.
35:30Now, going back to that case of that teenager who took her own life in Sarawak. Now, those who incited that teenager to commit suicide, based on a poll on her social media, they can be liable under Section 305 of the Penal Code, which states that it is wrong to incite individuals aged below 18 to commit suicide.
35:58So we have certain legal repercussions. What do you think, Wani?
36:05Yeah, I think they should be held responsible, you know, because goading somebody to carry out such a terrible act, you know, they should be dealt with. But was there any action taken against them?
36:19I'm not sure about that. I don't think so. I don't think so.
36:24This is where the authorities must step in and do the necessary to prevent what you call a reoccurrence.
36:30But also think that the volume of, you know, the volume of bullies going online.
36:38Yeah, hundreds and thousands, yeah.
36:40I think our authorities quite possibly are overwhelmed themselves, you know.
36:44That is why we must define what is bullying.
36:46Correct.
36:47You know, an argument between a group of people or an argument between two people turning ugly with one meaning and one not. All this, I mean, is this cyberbullying? You've got to define, you know.
36:59And we must, it's important to define so that people will not hide behind this mask called cyberbullying.
37:06Yeah. Farid, you want to, I think you want to touch on the existing procedures for dealing with cyberbullies.
37:17Yes, yes. So one of the things, I mean, I touched about this before just now.
37:21So one of the things that the police told me was that when you are a victim, the first thing you have to do is screenshot the content.
37:29But that alone is not sufficient because it could be, they need the link, they need the URLs.
37:35And then with the URL, they will forward that to the MCMC, who will then produce a timestamp of the offence.
37:44And then they will send it back to the PDRM for further action.
37:47But you can see how that would take time.
37:50The police told me it could take up to five working days, by which time the victim might have been so greatly depressed by what was happening.
38:00So I think the existing procedure, I mean, I can understand the procedure, but I can see how it might not be adequate to deal with the issue at hand.
38:10Yeah, yeah, that's right. And on July 24th, our Digital Minister, Govind Singh, set a special committee, including the Communications Ministry, Home Ministry, the Digital Ministry and the Legal Affairs Division of the Prime Minister's Department, Law and Institutional Reform, has been formed to thoroughly review the Penal Code to combat cyberbullying with amendments expected to be tabled in Parliament in October.
38:40What limitations do the authorities face in dealing with this issue, you think, Wani?
38:45I wouldn't really be able to tell you because I do not know what they are capable of and what they are not capable of.
38:53So I suppose they will have to come up with a new formulation or whatever that is required.
39:00That's right. And I think you want to, I think you touched on how MCMC is a national body which probably has limited control on international platforms.
39:11Yes, I think that this is a point that a lot of Malaysians miss. I think people are under the impression that MCMC can take down content.
39:19Actually, well, to my understanding, unless I'm wrong, they can't. They can request for certain content to be removed, but again, that will have to go through this platform's own filtration system and that can take time.
39:33So MCMC doesn't actually have any control over these platforms. They can request, but it doesn't mean that they can take them down.
39:39They don't have that authority. They are not the ones who maintain the platforms. I think this is a point that people in Malaysia need to understand.
39:46And not only that, I think the new proposal to license them is very good because in that event, in the event that something happens, I think the Malaysian government will have the authority to maybe impose some kind of a sanction or a fine or some kind of a penalty.
40:09So I think that is a very, very good move. I don't see anything else that can be used to actually counter this phenomenon of cyberbullying on social media.
40:22So it's a very, very new thing. Social media thing is also interaction and all that is also very new. So I think even the authorities are not really ready at this point of time.
40:35We'll circle back to that because we definitely want to talk about that a bit more. But for now, I think we want to shift our attention a little bit to the kind of support and help that victims can get if they find themselves in this situation.
40:48Maybe Wynnie and Aida can chime in. Aida, I understand you know someone or a friend of a friend who has been a victim of cyberbullying before. How can families and friends identify the signs and help them?
41:00Well, I have come across friends who are parents to teenagers who have been victims of cyberbullying. I think that the signs that they can see are emotional distress, sudden mood swings, increased anxiety.
41:22They can see with their children. Low self-esteem is one of them. And then withdrawal. They have this decrease in social interactions. They become isolated and they avoid activities that they used to enjoy.
41:39Another thing would be changes in sleep patterns or eating patterns. They have lack of appetite. They can't sleep. And another one is decline in academic performance. They have lost interest in school. Their grades are falling.
41:57And another one is a secretive online behavior. They are on their device 24-7. They avoid conversations of what they're doing online. And the other one is excessive device use from what I've been told.
42:14So these are some of the signs. And I think the steps that they can protect their loved ones from cyberbullying is a rather difficult challenge.
42:33When it comes to younger people, it would be very difficult because the youngsters are normally very secretive. They are very quiet. They don't want to share info with their parents. So it would be very difficult to detect cyberbullying if it happens among very young people, especially teenagers.
42:51They're also very impressionable. I think it's very important. I'm not just talking about young people in general. But I think building on what Wani said about these bullies being insecure themselves, I think it's very important to understand that what people say about you, especially strangers, are not a reflection of who you are. It's a reflection and projection of who they are.
43:16Correct.
43:17So you need to be strong within. I know it sounds very cliche, but it cannot be stated enough.
43:23Yeah, it is true. It is true. It's a reflection of who they are. The insecurities that they feel, the low self-esteem, and simply what they would have, their life experiences, which has prompted them to become such.
43:39And it's very tempting to retaliate when someone is saying nasty things about you. They're challenging you and you want to retaliate, but this is where we need to think 10 times, 20 times before we say anything incriminating.
43:55There was this one quote I came across. Again, I did not know who said it, but I found it very interesting. It said, you should not take advice or criticisms from people that you would not take advice from.
44:07Correct.
44:08So they can say whatever they want. If you don't take advice from these people, then why would you take their criticisms?
44:13But I suppose in some cases, the criticisms are a bit too much.
44:17Yes, yes.
44:18Like after this incident happened and after the articles and all that came out, some people have been messaging me seeking help because they were bullied by the same group of people.
44:30I see.
44:32She has made 13 police reports.
44:35Wow.
44:3613 police reports because they were trashing her reputation terribly. And one of the aggressors is a woman.
44:46And another lady contacted me also from Taiping and she had made several police reports as well over the same thing. So these are the same group of people and they have been making police reports and nothing has happened so far according to them.
45:01So I think the authorities also must act fast.
45:05Yeah. And this falls under digital safety. Some of the tips in the STAR report yesterday are do not respond to nasty messages. And again, sometimes it's easier said than done.
45:19Yeah, of course.
45:20Instead, we need to block and report the offending user or users. File a police report if necessary and do not hesitate to seek mental health support within family or friends.
45:32I think that is very, very important. Not only the victims need mental health support, the aggressors as well.
45:37Yeah, that's true.
45:38100% they do.
45:39Yeah, 100%.
45:40They are definitely not right in the head, you know, to be doing, you know.
45:43To inflict that much pain on someone else.
45:45And in the wee hours of the morning, you know. So they need help.
45:49They have too much time on their hands.
45:51Yeah, yeah, exactly. But okay, when it comes to the impressionable, vulnerable children, right, they need to seek an adult's help. Their parents, guardians, siblings or teachers.
46:06One step that they can, you know, take is gather evidence of the bullying, such as the online messages or posts sent by the cyber bully.
46:16Now, there are several NGOs willing to help children affected by cyber bullying, like Befrienders Malaysia.
46:23And there is the Women's Centre for Change that offers helpline services.
46:31Also, cyber bullying can be reported online by emailing CybersecurityMalaysia's Cyber999.
46:40I'm not sure a lot of people know this. Using the mobile app available on the Google Play or the App Store.
46:48Okay, since you have mentioned children, it brings to mind of an incident.
46:52The same group, you know, the man who was, who has been arrested and charged and all that.
46:56There was one day where they caught two young boys, 16-year-olds on TikTok.
47:03So they were like going from group. They were just being naughty, you know, they were just being naughty children.
47:08So these boys were hauled up and these boys were literally begging, you know, please, you know, don't tell our parents and all that.
47:16And this guy actually made some lewd remarks against these children.
47:22And he also, as punishment, he wanted them to do something nasty.
47:27But another guy who was also sitting on the, you know, who was also participating in the cyber bullying, said no, no, you don't do that.
47:34You just slap each other.
47:35Oh dear.
47:36And they did, and the boys did that, you know.
47:38So I hope, you know, I've, this has been, there are screen recordings of this incident.
47:44And I think this screen recording has been sent to the relevant people.
47:48So I think they should take the necessary action because, you know, bullying children, you know, leveling lewd, abusive language against them.
47:59And also proposing that they do something nasty.
48:01And then at the end, you know, telling them to smack each other and all that.
48:05I think that is inexcusable.
48:08Yeah, of course.
48:09You see, this is why I always maintain, I know it's unpopular, I always maintain that parents should not, number one, allow their children access to the internet.
48:19At least until they reach a certain age, maybe 17, 18.
48:22And then children should not be on social media.
48:25Because, you know, I recently installed an app.
48:28It's an app where you get to chat with random people.
48:32They will partner you with random strangers.
48:34And you can just video chat with that person.
48:37Normally I come across groups of university students and we'll have nice pointless discussion just about anything.
48:43But I've also seen children on there.
48:45And I was thinking, what if I was a bad person?
48:47What if I was, you know, someone with a bad intention?
48:50What could I do to those children?
48:51So I wonder, where are their parents?
48:53Where did they get this device from, the internet access?
48:57Children should not be on social media.
48:59I do not think that's a good thing, you know.
49:01But I feel even if the parents don't allow their kids to log on to social media at a certain age, the kids will find a way to do it elsewhere.
49:14Yeah.
49:15Yeah, they will find a way.
49:16They'll find a way.
49:17But do put some levels of control in it.
49:20At least that can provide some limitations, you know.
49:23Don't just give your children smartphones and say, yeah, go ahead and use it.
49:27That's my opinion at least.
49:29I know I don't have children, but one day when I do, I will probably have these limitations in my house.
49:36I'm sure that that will happen.
49:39But anyway, say you, I mean, as an individual, what can you do to protect yourself from becoming victims, in your opinion?
49:49I think we can chime in on the fact that all three of us are journalists, and we are bound to receive these sorts of comments on social media as well.
50:01And we have a certain code of conduct, right, as journalists to not retaliate.
50:11Because there are a lot of comments on our stories, on our social media posts.
50:15And we have to be strong and not retaliate.
50:19Because we represent our employer.
50:22True. I never retaliate on negative comments pertaining to my work.
50:27When stories are put up and all that, and when there are negative comments, I don't retaliate.
50:33Because as what you said, it's part of work and all that.
50:38But on a personal level, I do retaliate, but I make sure that I retaliate accordingly.
50:51Right.
50:52When you say accordingly, what does that mean?
50:55It depends on how I'm bullied, you know.
50:59Right.
51:00So you have to retaliate accordingly.
51:02Right.
51:03Well, we've come to the final part of our conversation today regarding the upcoming legislation on the government's plans to require social media platforms to obtain a license.
51:18I have a few questions about this, especially on the implementation challenges, right?
51:25I think there needs to be a thorough examination on the practical challenges of implementing the licensing framework.
51:34How will the government ensure compliance for one, and what resources are needed for effective oversight?
51:42That's a very good question.
51:44So I'm also wondering whether in order for compliance as well as to have control, for certain aspects of the social media platforms be curtailed.
51:54Yeah.
51:55You know, like, can they have it as what it is now?
51:58Or will they have to remodel it in order to fit into this new scheme of things?
52:06Yeah.
52:08Personally, I think, like, of course, the details will need to be ironed out.
52:12But on a principal level, this is something I think should have been done a long time ago.
52:15It's long overdue.
52:16Because I feel like, you know, these social media platforms, they operate globally.
52:24So they extend beyond our borders.
52:26But we can't deny the fact that they do have overwhelming impact on domestic politics, on domestic stability.
52:33So we need some kind of oversight, you know.
52:36They can't just say, you know, this is, you know, people can...
52:39Because what happens on there have an impact on us in the real world, in the country.
52:44So it's only right that the government maintains some levels of control over them.
52:49Yeah.
52:50And there's also enforcement mechanisms, right?
52:53How will the government enforce the licensing regulations?
52:57And what penalties will be imposed for non-compliance?
53:01I've spoken to a few people and, you know, the government's asserting greater control over its digital landscape is...
53:11that's also come into question.
53:13And we need to explore the motivations and potential implications for digital rights and freedoms.
53:22Do you think so?
53:23Yes, I do think so.
53:25But what comes to mind, you know, like the simplest form of control...
53:29Yeah.
53:30...could be that every person who wants to have a social media platform should register using their MyCard.
53:36Do you think that would be a step to find people might disagree with that?
53:40Definitely, there would be a lot of people disagreeing.
53:42Surveillance?
53:43Yeah, yeah.
53:44Yeah, yeah.
53:45Definitely, but that is one step that can be taken in order to easily detect what you call perpetrators in the event there are cases of cyberbullying.
53:54Because someone taking their life, it's something very, very serious, you know.
53:58Correct, yeah.
54:00I think this happened back when the government started requiring people to register their SIM card.
54:05Remember those days where they can just buy a SIM card?
54:07Yeah, yeah.
54:08There was protest, but now it's okay, you know.
54:11Yeah, now, I mean, we still have to register.
54:13Yeah, so, I mean, people have accepted it, you know.
54:15Yes, yes.
54:16So, initially, of course, there were a lot of protests and all that, but people have...
54:19Adjusted.
54:20Adjusted. I think it would be the same.
54:21I think it's the same principle that we use in media reporting.
54:25If you are brave enough to say this, then you should be brave enough to be quoted and have your mugshot attached to the story.
54:31So, if you're brave enough to say all these things on social media platforms, you should be brave enough to have your name attached to it, right?
54:37Yeah, yeah.
54:38At least that's my take, lah.
54:39Yeah, and another thing is the impact on user privacy.
54:43How will the licensing framework protect user privacy and data?
54:50Because that's already in our midst.
54:53Yeah, that's also an important aspect that has to be looked into.
54:57Yeah.
54:59I mean, to wrap up, Wani, what are some other considerations you think that the government should take into account when it comes to this licensing?
55:11Okay, when they are going to impose this licensing, they must take into consideration the many people who are making a living through all these social media platforms.
55:20Yeah.
55:21Because since these social media platforms came up, and I've been observing on TikTok, a lot of entrepreneurs, especially women, have been able to eke out a reasonable living, you know?
55:34So, they must take this into consideration that whatever implementation, whatever regulations, will not in any way curb these hardworking women from continuing with what they are doing.
55:46Yeah.
55:47So, that is the foremost that must be taken into consideration.
55:51Yeah. What about you, Farid? Parting words on this interesting topic.
55:57I mean, I agree with what Wani just said, but I will say this, just an advice to would-be bullies out there, you know?
56:08Sometimes we may not realise that we are engaging in a bullying act.
56:11Yeah.
56:12We may think that we are putting out an innocent comment.
56:14Yeah.
56:15But that negative comment might be the final push that gets someone off the ledge.
56:20Yeah, we might inadvertently hurt someone.
56:22Yeah.
56:23So, be very careful about what you say.
56:25Before you say something, before you want to be outraged at something, you know, take a step back and probably, you know, go for some coffee, go for some walk, pet some cat, touch the grass, you know, and then come back and say, do I really have to make this comment?
56:40Yeah.
56:41In 30 minutes from now, will I really care about this? If the answer is no, chances are you don't have to put out that comment.
56:45Probably not, yeah.
56:46Yeah.
56:47Well, this has been an engaging session. Thank you, Wani, for your insights.
56:52Thank you for having me.
56:53Yes.
56:54Thank you, everyone, for watching. We will be back in our Fortnightly episode, and you can catch the LiveNCT podcast on www.star.com.my.
57:05And leave a comment, and please do not bully us.
57:08Thank you, Wani.