Jason Jones hosts the Sunderland AFC show, with Sunderland Echo writers Phil Smith and James Copley.
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00:00He's a good enough to get in the top six, I think there's still a few big question marks there.
00:04He's been really good for me so far, but the problem he's got is that he's playing behind Jack Clarke in the Pecanod.
00:11He's a nightmare for opposition defenders because of his athleticism.
00:30Hello, welcome to the Raw podcast brought to you by the Sutherland Echo.
00:34My name is Jason Jones, joined by James Copley and Bill Smith.
00:38Lads, as you can see, a pleasure to be on for the first time, to be hosting for the first time.
00:43Very exciting times.
00:44I mean, first and foremost, I've got to ask, how was the trip to Bradford at the weekend?
00:49It looked like a lovely day for a game of football.
00:53It was canny actually.
00:53It was by far the best game of pre-season, which I suppose you would expect,
00:58given the standard of opposition.
01:01And I think we were both quite pleased by what we saw from a Sunderland perspective.
01:05It was really nice to see that, rather than just kind of like sit off and use it almost as a defending exercise,
01:13some of them were actually really aggressive.
01:15I think it was probably the first time over 90 minutes that you've actually seen what Le Brice has kind of talked about in full.
01:23And obviously there's been a lot of noise about, we want to get back to being good to watch and all that.
01:28And it was probably the first time that you've seen that over like 90 minutes.
01:31So obviously there were times when they got picked off and stuff, but it was canny.
01:34I think after a very, very unenjoyable trip to Bradford on Tuesday, it was quite an enjoyable trip the second time around.
01:45Yeah, welcome, Jason.
01:46Good to have you with us. I've thoroughly enjoyed Saturday, actually, as Phil mentioned.
01:51That was the first time, because there's been a lot of talk about an attack-minded style and a high press,
01:55and that was the first time where I was watching and I thought, right, OK, I get it now.
01:59I get what Le Brice is trying to implement.
02:01Obviously, that was more of what we'd expect of the first team in terms of personnel compared to Bradford City the week previous.
02:09So I came away fairly encouraged.
02:12I think the point that me and Phil maybe made afterwards was that, will Marseille play the same way as Cardiff City on Saturday?
02:19Probably not. And there might be a few more long balls in the championship over the course of the season that Sunderland will have to deal with.
02:24But yeah, I was really encouraged with the caveat that we probably need a striker still as well,
02:30which is something we've talked about on this podcast for a rather long time now.
02:36And I'm sure we're going to talk about it a lot today as well.
02:38I mean, it's kind of understandable, isn't it really, Phil? Five or six weeks since Reggie Le Brice came in,
02:44he's obviously got this much heralded tactical approach that he's trying to implement at Sunderland.
02:48It was always going to take a little while for him to get going, perhaps for the players to fully understand what he's asking of them.
02:55And I mean, obviously, he's still got a long way to go with that.
02:57But do you think that the performance on Saturday was the most promising signs we've seen from Sunderland under Le Brice?
03:04Yeah, I think so. They played pretty well against Forest, which is obviously like a similar start in XI as well.
03:12But that was a tougher game to watch because it was knocking on a door of 40 degrees.
03:17And obviously, it was a lot earlier in the preseason program as well.
03:20So I think Saturday, to be fair, was the one that felt most like an actual football match rather than a training exercise, which he used to.
03:29So I think what was nice about the game or what was encouraging about the game for me was that Sunderland created loads of chances.
03:36And some of that was through nicking the ball off Marseille.
03:40Some of it was just through some nice general build-up play of their own.
03:44It wasn't all about Jack Clarke.
03:45Actually, Clarke didn't do a great deal until he hit the post about midway through the second half.
03:49Most of what Sunderland were doing was coming through Patrick Roberts on the right, which I think was really exciting for everyone because everyone loves Patrick Roberts.
03:58He's everyone's favourite player, rightly so.
04:00You know, last season, I mean, a lot was made of last season.
04:03I think, to be fair, he had injury issues and we've seen it happen to so many players where they struggle to find their rhythm coming back.
04:09But that was something that gave me a lot of encouragement going away from it.
04:13Because whether Clarke's here or not, Sunderland need other players and other parts of the pitch to be damaging the opposition.
04:19So, yeah, I think there's a lot of positives.
04:22I feel quite reassured that Sunderland are going into the season with a fairly settled team, which has got a lot of quality in it.
04:30Where does it sit in terms of what's going to happen over the season?
04:32There's obviously still some big question marks and, you know, the Clarke thing and the strike thing sort of looms large, doesn't it?
04:38And it will do until the window shuts.
04:40But, yeah, I'm a bit reassured.
04:42I feel like things are heading in the right direction.
04:44But you never quite know.
04:45In Cardiff, I'm going to play like Marseille.
04:47So that's going to be a very different challenge and a very different style of game.
04:54So I guess we can't read too much into that one off the back of Saturday.
05:00I mean, you mentioned Paddy Roberts there.
05:02Obviously, a lot of people's man of the match on Saturday.
05:05James, any other real sort of standout performance for you at the weekend?
05:08Anybody really making the case that they have to be in that starting XI come Saturday lunchtime against Cardiff?
05:13I think he would have been anyway, but I thought Luke09 was outstanding, actually.
05:16I know Sunderland shipped two goals, but I thought he made a couple of crucial blocks, a couple of crucial clearances.
05:22Read the game really well.
05:23I've been impressed over a large amount of time about how well Luke09 has actually adapted to that centre-back role.
05:29And his reading of the game, I think, has improved tenfold as well.
05:33That's not to say that sometimes he isn't liable to be a little bit rash or get caught out at times,
05:38because I think he definitely still has that in his locker.
05:41But generally, I think he's improved.
05:43I think him and Alissi going into the Championship season is a good, solid partnership,
05:48although a little bit of a concern that they haven't played together as much as 09 and Ballard.
05:52And I think any team in the Championship would miss Dan Ballard.
05:56But in terms of the other players,
05:59Romain Mundel obviously didn't have enough time to really impress as he did away at Bradford City.
06:04But he's been really good for me so far.
06:07But the problem he's got is that he's playing behind Jack Clarke in the pecking order.
06:12So I think it's exciting that he's now an option for 20 minutes off the bench.
06:17But yeah, I think generally, I think that start at 11 for Cardiff is more or less locked in.
06:23I think the question would be whether Sunderland would sign a striker before that.
06:28But even if they did, I don't think he would be ready.
06:31So barring any touchwood last-minute injuries in training,
06:35I think the team that started against Marseille will likely be the team that starts against Cardiff.
06:40Let's properly look ahead to Saturday, then, that Cardiff game.
06:43I know you're saying there, James, that you think Sunderland's line-up is pretty settled,
06:47that Reg Labrie sort of knows what he's wanting to do and the personnel who will fulfil that.
06:52But are there perhaps a couple of positions where he still has slight decisions to make?
06:56If you look at the centre of midfield, perhaps,
06:58when you look at the likes of Chris Rigg knocking on the door.
07:01Obviously, Alan Brown's been playing in pre-season.
07:03Adil Ashish has had a pretty decent pre-season as well.
07:06And you look at George Bellingham.
07:08I mean, do you think that those are decisions that Labrie will be considering?
07:12Or do you think that he is pretty much there when it comes to that midfield area?
07:17I think he is pretty much there now.
07:20I do agree with what you're saying, though.
07:21I think Chris Rigg made a really, really strong case earlier in pre-season to be starting.
07:26The Cardiff City game, and we said on the Whistle video, which we record afterwards,
07:30that I think Alan Brown's slightly moved ahead of him now.
07:33Not necessarily because Chris Rigg's done anything wrong at all.
07:35I think he's actually been really good.
07:37But it's just Alan Brown's got that experience.
07:40He's got that know-how.
07:41We mentioned before, when Hume goes forward, he'll drop in to right back.
07:45He's just so experienced.
07:47He's so good on the ball.
07:48He's very athletic, very box-to-box, brings a lot of energy,
07:51complements Dan Neil really well.
07:53So, although I don't think Chris Rigg's done a lot wrong,
07:55and he can really count himself a bit unlucky,
07:57and I wouldn't be surprised if he feels a bit hard done to,
08:01but he's got the sort of mentality where he'll be absolutely chomping at the bit
08:05to bounce back and to get any opportunity he can.
08:07If nothing else, Phil, it's nice to be talking about a Sunderland team that appear,
08:11on paper at least, to have some decent options,
08:14and the ability to rotate players in and out,
08:17and maybe create different sorts of headaches for opposition teams.
08:21Yeah, definitely.
08:22I think one of the interesting things about this pre-season,
08:24just in the season more generally,
08:26is obviously there's not actually been a huge amount of turnover in the team,
08:31certainly not in terms of the start of XI.
08:33It's an interesting sort of question,
08:35is that when the team finished 16th last season,
08:38is that a good thing or is that a bad thing?
08:40And I think you can see it both ways.
08:41Personally, I do kind of see it as a good thing.
08:45This is a team that halfway through last season was pushing for the playoffs.
08:48It was well-positioned.
08:50It had some issues, as we know, about safety up front,
08:52which haven't gone away, and that's concerning.
08:54But it's a team that we know is capable of competing with any team at this level.
09:00And I think that ultimately one of the big things at this window,
09:02when we get to the end of it,
09:03is I think we'll be pleased that Sunderland managed to hold on to a lot of these players.
09:06I know there's still a few weeks to go,
09:07but I don't envisage there being a fire sale.
09:10And I think that the team's in a decent place.
09:12For me, I think that you know that there's going to be three or four teams
09:15competing for the top two,
09:17probably three of them who've come down from the Premier League.
09:19I don't see Sunderland being in that category.
09:21And then you know that there's going to be 10 teams
09:23scrapping for two playoff places, basically.
09:26And I think Sunderland are going to be in that category.
09:28I think they're good enough to be in that category.
09:29I think the team is settled enough to be in that category.
09:31I think they've got enough quality.
09:33The question of whether they can be at the top of that pile,
09:36I think depends on that extra little bit of firepower.
09:38And I think if you look back to when they snuck in a six last time around,
09:41that was Ahmad, wasn't it?
09:43You know, and it was to an extent when he was fit, Stewart.
09:45I know everyone says he was injured for so much of that season,
09:47but the point being, the games he played, he scored in every one of them.
09:50So I think that, you know, that for me is the question.
09:53I'm fairly comfortable about this team.
09:55I think it'll be better than what finished last year.
09:57I don't have any huge fears about being stuck at the bottom end of the table.
10:00Is it good enough to get in the top six?
10:02I think there's still a few big question marks there,
10:04and probably the depth is one of those.
10:09I mean, we've already alluded to it a few times,
10:11so we might as well move on and talk about the Stryker situation,
10:15because it does feel as if it's all anybody is talking about
10:18at the moment around the club.
10:20Obviously, Elisa Maenda has seemingly got the nod from Reg Labriez.
10:25Started a couple of games in pre-season, looked fairly bright
10:27without necessarily scoring.
10:29But I mean, what have you seen from him in pre-season, James,
10:32to suggest that he might be the one who Labriez
10:36put in the most faith in at this moment in time?
10:39I really like him.
10:40I think he's improved a great deal from the early showings we saw of him at Sunderland.
10:44Obviously, he didn't play too much.
10:46I think he only started one game away at Plymouth, perhaps.
10:49And then he went on that surprising loan to Hibbs,
10:51which was a little bit of a surprise,
10:52because he was just starting to get sort of settled in the North East,
10:55and then he went up to Scotland.
10:57Didn't really happen for him up there.
10:58I think he only played twice, and then he was playing with their under-21s.
11:01So whilst I'm sure he benefited from it in terms of a little bit of experience,
11:06he probably would have been just better served maybe staying at Sunderland,
11:09getting the odd game off the bench and playing for our under-21s.
11:12So I think the way he's bounced back from that is good.
11:14He possesses some really good attributes.
11:17He's quite fast.
11:18He runs the channels.
11:20He's got a good shot on him.
11:21He did miss a good chance against Blackpool, which was saved.
11:26But Reg Labrie touched on this, Phil, after Marseille, didn't he?
11:31Is that he likes Miander.
11:32He's clearly a good player.
11:33He's clearly got something, but he's still young.
11:35He's 19.
11:36He's very raw.
11:37He's inexperienced in life and championship football.
11:42So Labrie basically said, we can't hang our hat on him for 46 games.
11:47And I think Phil would absolutely agree that whatever Sunderland do
11:52this summer will largely depend on whether they can get a couple of good strikers in.
12:04We've already alluded to it a few times, so we might as well move on
12:07and talk about the striker situation, because it does feel as if it's all
12:10anybody is talking about at the moment around the club.
12:14Obviously, Elisa Miander has seemingly got the nod from Reg Labrie.
12:19He's started a couple of games in pre-season, looked fairly bright without
12:22necessarily scoring.
12:23But I mean, what have you seen from him in pre-season, James,
12:26to suggest that he might be the one who Labrie is putting the most faith in
12:31at this moment in time?
12:33I really like him.
12:34I think he's improved a great deal from the early showings we saw of him at Sunderland.
12:38Obviously, he didn't play too much.
12:40I think he only started one game away at Plymouth, perhaps.
12:43And then he went on that surprising loan to Hibs, which was a little bit of a surprise
12:47because he was just starting to get sort of settled in the northeast.
12:50And then he went up to Scotland.
12:51Didn't really happen for him up there.
12:52I think he only played twice and then he was playing with their under-21s.
12:55So whilst I'm sure he benefited from it in terms of a little bit of experience,
13:00he probably would have been just better served maybe staying at Sunderland,
13:03getting the odd game off the bench and playing for our under-21s.
13:06So I think the way he's bounced back from that is good.
13:09He possesses some really good attributes.
13:11He's quite fast.
13:13He runs the channels.
13:14He's got a good shot on him.
13:16He did miss a good chance against Blackpool, which was saved.
13:22But Reg Labrie touched on this Phil after Marseille, didn't he?
13:25Is that he likes Miander.
13:27He's clearly a good player.
13:28He's clearly got something.
13:29But he's still young.
13:30He's 19.
13:30He's very raw.
13:31He's inexperienced in life and championship football.
13:36So Labrie basically said we can't hang our hat on him for 46 games.
13:41And I think Phil would absolutely agree that whatever Sunderland do this summer
13:47will largely depend on whether they can get a couple of good strikers in
13:50and whether those strikers can hit the ground running and score some goals.
13:53Because whilst we have some really exciting attacking players,
13:56if Jack Clarke can reproduce similar numbers, that's a huge plus.
14:00If he does stay, Patrick Roberts obviously had a little bit of a disappointing season
14:04last campaign in terms of his numbers.
14:06If he can get somewhere back to his best, that's fantastic.
14:08Then there's a little bit of depth on either wing with Mundelein-Barr,
14:11but so much will depend on whether we can add 10, 15 goals
14:15from that central striker position.
14:17Will Miander be the player to get 15 goals in the championship at 19 turning 20?
14:22I don't think so, despite being quite impressed with him during pre-season.
14:27I just don't think he's that player.
14:29I think it's like it's not like about a 30 goal striker either.
14:34Do you know what I mean?
14:35We are actually talking about getting 15 to 20 from, you know,
14:38not just one striker either, like Miander, Roosen and whoever comes in.
14:42I mean, Clarke is a massive one, because I think if Clarke stays,
14:45you look across that sort of pitch, you can see Clarke finding 15 goals again.
14:50Absolutely no problem the form that he's in.
14:53I personally, I think Joe will hit, if he plays regularly,
14:55I think Joe will hit double figures this season, I genuinely do.
14:58I think Saturday was the first time where you can really understand
15:02why Lebris has put him in that position, because when someone do press
15:05as high as they did at the weekend, then he's a nightmare for opposition
15:10defenders because of his athleticism, because of how
15:14is his fitness.
15:15And I think that we saw last year he's got an eye for goal.
15:17And if someone keep with this high press,
15:19I think he'll get in good position.
15:20Didn't happen on Saturday, but, you know, it's pre-season.
15:22So I'm not concerned about that.
15:24So I can see Joe chipping in with goals.
15:27So it's not about like a 30 goal.
15:29You know, obviously that would be nice. Don't get me wrong.
15:31But it is talking about getting, you know, 15 to 20 goals
15:34from that group of strikers.
15:36But I do think that it's going to be very difficult for Sunderland
15:38to get into the top six without that.
15:41I don't think they're going to do it
15:42if you have the same kind of output that they had last season.
15:45And obviously the nightmare scenario is Clark goes and you then don't get in
15:49those goals because Mundell's been excellent all pre-season.
15:53Bradford, he was brilliant.
15:54I do think Sunderland have got a player there, but he's clearly not going to get.
15:57Well, I shouldn't say that. You never know.
15:59But I don't think he's going to produce what Clark did last season.
16:02It took Clark a while to get up to that level, didn't it?
16:04And he had way more experience in senior football coming to Sunderland.
16:07So I do think it's like it's absolutely, it's absolutely vital.
16:11And the Clark thing is still massive, I think.
16:14I still think that has an absolutely huge say in what happens
16:18in the final weeks of this window, because I mean, listen,
16:21if loads of money came in, that totally changes what Sunderland can do up front.
16:24There may be players who at the moment wouldn't be within their financial means.
16:28It would become so when that money comes in.
16:30And that's not me saying I hope Clark goes.
16:32I would much rather he stayed.
16:33But I do think that's kind of the key to everything at the moment.
16:36I think if Clark stays, Sunderland is shopping in one market for a striker.
16:40And I think, you know, the profile of the player will be
16:43they might have to take more of a risk.
16:44They won't be spending the kind of fees
16:46that some of the championship clubs have spent on Keith Moore, for example.
16:49And if Clark goes, then maybe you're looking at some slightly different deals.
16:52So it's going to be a it's going to be a really interesting few weeks.
16:55I've said a few years, shut the transfer window before the season starts.
16:58It gets on my nerves every single year because I, you know,
17:01I just don't think it's right.
17:03I think when the season starts, everyone should have their squad.
17:06January, I can understand.
17:07But yeah, that's a tangent.
17:09But we should we should shut the window a few days before the season starts.
17:13I'll say it every year.
17:13I'll be back next year to make that same point.
17:16That's Phil's rant for the year.
17:17Just on the back of the clock point, though, it's it's really interesting.
17:22The timing of that transfer, if it did happen,
17:25if it happens on deadline day, you almost feel what's the point
17:28if Sunderland haven't already got their preferred striker target through the door,
17:31because then suddenly the prices go up.
17:33You might not get a deal done.
17:34We've seen historically Sunderland not be able to get a striker deal
17:38done on deadline day and Keith Moore in January.
17:40So the timing of that will be essential.
17:42If Clark's going to go really late into the window, does that allow Sunderland
17:46enough time to to get who they need in it?
17:49It's a balancing act and I don't envy the decision makers, to be honest.
17:54No, I think that's a really, really fair point, James, as well.
17:56Like the last thing Sunderland want to be left with is, you know,
17:59twenty, twenty five million pound burning hole in their pocket at ten fifty nine
18:03on August 30th. It's going to do them no good, is it?
18:06You know, obviously you're talking there, Phil, about Sunderland
18:09shopping in in one market at the moment for a striker.
18:12There are names being thrown about, perhaps the most recent one
18:16that's sort of garnering quite a lot of attention is that of E.K.
18:19But obviously, formally on loan at Sheffield Wednesday last season,
18:26Sheffield Wednesday are still very much in the hunt to sign him.
18:29I mean, have you got any sort of idea where we stand with that?
18:33Are Sunderland serious contenders for that signature, do you think?
18:37I think serious contenders is fair, but I think I don't see them
18:41as the front runners in that one.
18:42I think it's fairly obvious that Sheffield Wednesday are very, very keen to have him back.
18:48I think he would be very happy to go back to Sheffield Wednesday
18:50because it's a place where he's obviously settled, knows his teammates,
18:54he's had an impact, has a really good relationship with the head coach.
18:57So my thing sitting here would be that I would expect at a certain point
19:02Sheffield Wednesday to get the deal done.
19:04I don't think they actually have an issue with the fee that Upo's club wants.
19:09I think it's about the payment structure
19:10and you have to think that that kind of thing can probably be overcome.
19:14I suspect maybe news of Sunderland's interest has potentially leaked a little bit
19:19to see if Sheffield Wednesday will hurry along and get it done.
19:23We'll see on that one.
19:24What I would say is that I think from the conversations I've had,
19:27Sunderland have registered a fairly serious interest.
19:29And I think actually the player sees it as a potentially really good move.
19:34I think that ultimately what he's looking for is he wants a settled home now.
19:39He's at a stage of his career where he wants to play regularly.
19:41And I think the project at Sunderland is one that really appeals.
19:44But if you ask me, just my own personal instinct is that Sheffield
19:47Wednesday is always going to be the preferred option, I think.
19:51I think it just reflects the fact really that Sunderland,
19:53this has gone on longer than people would have liked.
19:56And they have to have other irons in the fire.
19:58And I think someone who's scored a lot of goals
20:00and has championship experience is someone that they kind of have to look at.
20:03But, you know, the Alexandra Mendy saga is just one of the strangest,
20:08I think, I've covered, to be honest.
20:10And sort of nearing on a decade now covering Sunderland.
20:13So I still think that one is obviously significant.
20:16You know, I think incredibly rare for a player to come out and say
20:19which club he wants to join.
20:21You know, Darren Bent did it famously, but we haven't had too many since.
20:25And so I still you still think that there's got to be something
20:28that can happen there for the for someone to have been in talks this long.
20:32So just they don't see it as a deal that's impossible to do.
20:35You know, and I think the fact that he still wants it.
20:38But I mean, things that will still happen at some point over this window.
20:42And then I suppose the question becomes, do you need another one?
20:46Is it a case of if Clarke goes that you then go and sort of invest
20:49further in the final third? I'm not sure.
20:51So there's loads, there's loads of moving parts to it.
20:53I think the one thing I would say about Ugo is I don't know where he'll end up,
20:56but I get the impression that we're at the end point.
20:58But I think wherever that happens, I think we'll see it happen pretty quickly.
21:02So I get the impression he wants it sorted before the season starts.
21:05So I think I don't think we'll be waiting around too long
21:09for a conclusion on that one.
21:10If I had put my money on it, I'd put money on and go to the Sheffield Wednesday.
21:13But Sunderland are definitely very much sort of seriously in that race.
21:17I mean, one thing that we've seen Sunderland do
21:20fairly frequently in recent transfer windows is go to that loan market.
21:24You know, it's worked out better than others on occasion.
21:28Obviously, Nissen-Burstaw didn't
21:30necessarily light up the Stadium of Light last season.
21:33But do you think that that's something they could perhaps look to do again, Phil?
21:37Maybe, you know, a little later in the window, if they are still looking
21:40to add that depth, if they do want a second striker through the door,
21:43maybe see what options are out there on a temporary basis.
21:47Yeah, I think so.
21:48I think the key is to not be over-relying on it.
21:51I think we saw it to an extent with some last season with Ahmad
21:54in that it just left a gap in the squad that was never realistically going to be filled.
21:59I think Middlesbrough is a great example as well.
22:01Middlesbrough obviously surging into the playoffs
22:04with Cameron Archer,
22:07Ryan Giles, and then they didn't make the playoffs last year
22:10because they started the season so slowly.
22:12And I think you speak to anyone around Middlesbrough,
22:13they'd say part of it was because they just had too many gaps in their team.
22:16And you've seen them really turn away from the loan market as a result
22:20to try and get their own players in.
22:22So I think that Sunderland will always look to bring their own players in first,
22:26which I absolutely agree with.
22:28And I think you're seeing at the moment that, you know,
22:30they're very much trying to get their own players in
22:32before they look at the loan market.
22:34But I also think if you aren't in a position like Ipswich last year,
22:38and Ipswich did have Premier League loans,
22:39but if you aren't in a position where you can just sort of invest
22:43whatever money you like pretty much within reason,
22:46I think, and you're trying to go for promotion,
22:47I don't think you can afford to ignore the loan market.
22:49I just don't think you can, because I think it gives you access to a quality of player
22:54that otherwise is just totally unattainable.
22:55And as I always say, we know that it's the championship.
22:59So we know that in the middle of the table,
23:00there's going to be 10, 12 teams separated by a handful of points.
23:03And the team that gets into that fifth, sixth position
23:07is going to be the one who has the best luck with injuries
23:09and the one who has that little bit of stardust.
23:11So I don't think it's something that they can afford to ignore.
23:14That's very probably all we've got time for this week.
23:17Thanks to James. Thanks to Phil.
23:19Thanks to everybody watching and listening.
23:22The Raw will be back next week.
23:23It's available on all social media platforms.
23:26And as always, for everything Sunderland, keep up to date with the Sunderland Depot.
23:30Thanks for watching. We'll see you next time.