Yourcinemafilms.com | Writer and development exec Noel Chingunji (Netflix, Roughcut) breaks down how writers and producers should package their work for success!
There are a lot of talented people without this knowledge who are going round in circles
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’Welcome to Your Cinema'
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There are a lot of talented people without this knowledge who are going round in circles
Are you ready for the truth?
’Welcome to Your Cinema'
Follow us on socials:
Tiktok: @yourcinemafilms
Instagram: @yourcinemafilms
Twitter: @yourcinemafilms
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FunTranscript
00:00Now everyone's making it in film and TV, but we don't really know how.
00:06Here, we uncover the truth.
00:08Welcome to the Your Cinema Podcast.
00:12Welcome to the Your Cinema Podcast.
00:15This is the place where we explore the truth about the street, film, TV and theatre.
00:21Hear it directly from those who are mashing it.
00:24Today, we've got someone who is truly super talented.
00:30He's a writer, producer, director, I would say development exec and all-round mogul.
00:39That's how I really tell him all the time.
00:44People, they'll clock on later, but that's the essence of who this guy really is.
00:52He's worked with Ashatala, been at Netflix.
00:56He knows his stuff.
00:58Ashatala, by the way, he's won six BAFTAs, created The Office.
01:02People just do nothing.
01:04Was it the IT crowd as well?
01:07The IT crowd, yeah.
01:08You know what I mean?
01:10Flagship shows over and over again.
01:13He's coming from good creative stock.
01:16I introduce to you guys, Noel Chingunji.
01:19What's going on, bro?
01:20How are you?
01:21I'm good.
01:22I'm good, man.
01:23I'm good.
01:24I woke up not too long ago, so I'm a bit groggy, but I'm well.
01:28It's so good.
01:33Last time we caught up, some of the things you said really opened my mind, blew my mind.
01:42I was like, what is this?
01:46It really helped me to understand even more so the business side of the creative fields that we all love,
01:59especially when someone's got an idea for TV and want to pitch it or want to get it onto a streamer.
02:08But before that, I've known you predominantly as a writer, right?
02:14But I don't really know what you're talking about when it comes to development.
02:19So uncover, where did you learn all of this?
02:25Development, it all started with Ash when I was working for him at Rough Cut.
02:33My role was his assistant, so producer's assistant slash development assistant in their comedy team.
02:44And when you're a development assistant, a lot of your job is reading,
02:499% of your job is reading scripts that get sent in.
02:52The scripts that get sent into the company that no one in the company wants to look at yet,
02:57because 9 times out of 10, they're not good.
02:59So you're essentially a filter to find scripts which are good and pass them up along
03:06and the ones that aren't good to put them in the rubbish pile, basically.
03:12And in addition to reading, you're there in the meetings that these execs have with talent
03:20or amongst themselves talking about the type of shows they want to make and what they're looking for
03:25and what talent needs to bring, essentially.
03:29So in this industry, ultimately, it all comes down to taste.
03:34So it's a weird one because it's ultimately subjective what one production company might like
03:39and another one might pass on.
03:41But there are key things which, as a writer, especially if you're new,
03:46that you need to have that will better your chances of getting your show made.
03:52Wow. And what are some of those things?
03:56Well, as a new writer, especially, you need to have a script.
04:01You need to have a pilot script.
04:03It's not enough to have a treatment for a show.
04:06You need to have a pilot script because they need to see that you can write.
04:11And not only do they need to see that you can write,
04:13they need to see that you can write the idea that you're pitching for.
04:17So when I say that, like, say you can have a pilot script about two people that work at McDonald's.
04:23You put in a really good pilot script, and then you pitch it to a company like Rough Cut.
04:29And they like your writing, but they don't necessarily like the idea.
04:32It's not for them, for whatever reason.
04:34And then you're like, what else do you have?
04:36And they're like, oh, okay, I have an idea about two people working in space.
04:43And then they're like, oh, that sounds good.
04:45Even though they like, they can see you can write, they still are going to,
04:50most likely going to want to see you write a pilot script of that idea set in space
04:54before they decide whether you can, okay, they can execute that.
04:59You can execute the idea, and it's something they'll like to buy and put into further development.
05:04So, yeah, you need to have a pilot script.
05:07And segueing from that, you need to have multiple ideas.
05:10Because in the example I just gave, you can pitch one script.
05:14But for whatever reason, and there's various reasons for why a production company
05:18might not take on the idea, you know, quite often they might have something
05:22which might be remotely similar.
05:26It could be timing.
05:28They might find the idea too expensive.
05:31The marketplace might not be looking for an idea like that at the moment.
05:35So there are various reasons.
05:37So you need to have multiple ideas.
05:40I say as a new writer, some people say, oh, you have like 10 ideas.
05:43I don't necessarily think so.
05:45I think as a new writer, before you take yourself out to market,
05:49have at least like three pilot scripts, and then have maybe two or more ideas,
05:59two to three more ideas outside of those three pilot scripts that you've written.
06:03So when you go to these companies and you pitch something,
06:06they might like your style of writing, but if they don't like the idea,
06:09you have something else in the chamber.
06:11You can see, oh, you're not just a one-trick pony.
06:13This is someone that we should really invest in.
06:15And then in addition to having a pilot script, have a treatment,
06:20which, you know, is essentially like a document, like a five-,
06:25six-page document which explains, well, a 46-page document which explains,
06:31like, you know, what your show is about, you know, the premise,
06:36the logline, like a series overview or an episode outline.
06:41It doesn't have to be an episode outline because that's going to change
06:44when it gets put into development, but it can be like a series overview
06:47to show, like, where this show can go because, you know,
06:50you could write a pilot script, but then you need to show,
06:53does my show have legs, you know, what will happen in season one,
06:57what could potentially happen in season two, you know.
07:00Don't worry too much.
07:01You're not going to know what's going to happen in season four, episode six.
07:04You know, you're not going to know at this stage,
07:06but at least know how the season could end, the first season,
07:11and how it could potentially build story for a following season.
07:17And then also, you know, have casting suggestions as well.
07:22That always helps, you know, if you put a casting suggestion,
07:26not necessarily because you're going to get that person,
07:29but visually to show, okay, it's all visual, isn't it?
07:33So you're basically showing to them, oh, this is what the characters
07:35could look like or the vibe type of thing.
07:39And then also the most important thing, which a lot of people
07:43who don't work in the industry yet don't realize,
07:46you need to have this section.
07:48This usually comes towards the end of this treatment called Why Now?
07:52And that essentially explains, like, why this show,
07:56why should the company, why would a broadcaster like Netflix
08:00or BBC make this show now?
08:03Like, what does it say about the world now?
08:05How is it relevant to the world now?
08:08And it can be tricky because things are always changing,
08:11and quite often when you pitch a show, it takes about maybe two to four years
08:18before it gets put on air, and by then things can change.
08:23But it is important to have something that explains why it's relevant to now.
08:28Essentially what you're saying is why the theme of your show is relevant to now.
08:32So say it's a show about the ideals of immigration.
08:35You can talk about how the world has become more globalized now,
08:39and you can talk about how even some governments are resistant
08:42to immigration and stuff.
08:44We're seeing it now with, like, the refugee crisis and stuff,
08:48like the UK and the whole Rwanda situation,
08:50something like that essentially.
08:53And, yeah, those are the key things you need, really.
08:58I love that.
08:59You're doing what you did at Nando's again.
09:01You're just in the wisdom, like, yeah, cool.
09:06One thing that came to me as you were speaking was, like,
09:09speaking to the world, i.e. your idea.
09:14Because there's two ways you can look at it, right?
09:17Ah, this is my idea, and this is what I just want to do.
09:20So then you put it out yourself.
09:23But then it's, like, this is my idea, and this is what I want to do,
09:27but I do want it to go to a mass audience.
09:32It might make sense to, if you're speaking with a broadcaster,
09:36understand how to speak to the world around us,
09:43not in a way of compromising,
09:46because I think that's a whole other conversation
09:48in terms of having the confidence to say,
09:50no, this is actually what I want to do.
09:52And understanding, well, then, people may not understand it,
09:57but I love that way of sprinkling in the world to communicate,
10:02like, why now, basically.
10:06So, yeah, I love how you just spewed that out.
10:10So one of the things that really excited me, right,
10:14was understanding the difference between each broadcaster,
10:18because I feel like a lot of people, even myself,
10:22it's like, oh, I've got this idea.
10:24Yeah, that could work.
10:25It would be amazing to have it on a Netflix or Amazon
10:28or whatever, whatever.
10:29But you simply and cleverly just broke down, like,
10:33well, do you know what?
10:35Each streamer, each broadcaster has their own, like, demographic
10:40or what the kind of show they're looking for.
10:43So I wanted to go through this with you, right?
10:46So, for example, like a Netflix, if you're looking at Netflix,
10:50what are they typically looking for?
10:54So Netflix, because they are an American company,
11:00essentially they're looking for something that can travel,
11:03like something global.
11:06It's not always the case, but quite often, like,
11:09during my time there, you know, they'll say they want big, you know,
11:13ideas, high stakes, you know, like a big world,
11:16high stakes type of thing, big names and stuff,
11:21pretty much big broad ideas, mainstream ideas, you know,
11:25whatever that means, that can travel around the world,
11:28something that can appeal to Americans.
11:30It can still be distinctly British,
11:32but something that can appeal to Americans or whatever.
11:37So, yeah, big, big, bold, mainstream ideas,
11:40expensive ideas, essentially.
11:43Whereas someone like the BBC, well, I mean,
11:49BBC, they have different platforms, isn't it?
11:51So BBC One, they're going to look for, like, big,
11:55not necessarily big ideas, but broad ideas.
11:58So it could be like a family comedy, something not too niche,
12:03but probably have a recognisable name in it,
12:06at least one recognisable name.
12:08BBC Two, they're like a step, just a step more left,
12:15like they're going to look for something.
12:18Similarly, that could attract a wider audience,
12:21but is, you know, a bit more edgy
12:24or could be a bit more quirky type of thing.
12:28For example, like, I May Destroy You,
12:30even though that ultimately ended up on BBC One,
12:32I think originally that was going to be on BBC Two
12:35because the subject matter was quite, you know,
12:38quite, quite, you know, bold and stuff,
12:41and it was quite an edgy show.
12:44BBC Three, they are looking for a young audience,
12:50so ideas which appeal to a young audience.
12:53So quite often, you know, when you see shows on the BBC
12:56which are set in, like, school, like secondary school
12:59or something like that, you know,
13:01shows usually on BBC Three,
13:04they're usually more low-concept ideas,
13:07especially because BBC Three, out of all the platforms,
13:10they have the lowest budget.
13:12So you're not going to see some expensive show
13:15on BBC Three and stuff.
13:17You know, you're going to see something
13:19which is quite low-concept, you know,
13:22quite Gen Z leaning and stuff,
13:26but then at the same time, there are shows
13:28which start on BBC Three that do cross over to BBC One,
13:32like Fleabag probably being the most recent prominent example
13:38because I think they probably thought,
13:40oh, that was niche, and, you know, let's put that,
13:43the style of it, let's ask niche, let's put that on BBC Three,
13:46but then it obviously became really popular
13:49and so many people are watching it,
13:51so they gave that a prime time slot on BBC One.
13:55Channel Four, they also,
13:59I would say the key difference in Channel Four and BBC,
14:02the BBC is that Channel Four,
14:04they look for things which are a bit more,
14:08a bit more authored, I would say,
14:10something authored and a bit more edgy, so...
14:14What does authored mean?
14:16So, for example, an authored show would be like Fleabag,
14:20you know, Fleabag was quite personal.
14:24Whereas a show that's not necessarily authored,
14:27it could be something like...
14:30What's that called?
14:32Like Friends, yeah.
14:34Friends is, you know, it's not, you know,
14:37it's a very popular show and stuff,
14:40people find it funny and whatnot, but it's not necessarily...
14:44And don't get me wrong,
14:46the writers did have to have a certain tone of voice
14:48to be able to write that, but it's not really specific,
14:51you know what I mean?
14:52It's not saying something specific and whatnot,
14:54whereas Fleabag, like, you know,
14:56it had a specific point of view on grief, you know,
15:00or even Atlanta, you know,
15:02that had a very specific point of view type of thing.
15:05Dreaming Whilst Black, you know,
15:07specific point of view and stuff.
15:10So, yeah, Channel Four, they look for things quite,
15:13not always, but a bit more authored,
15:16but then edgy as well, and a bit more weird,
15:20like the comedy they make, like, for example,
15:23Staff Let's Flats, that's a unique show in a sense
15:26where it's very much like, you know,
15:30it has the classic comedy elements,
15:32like these silly characters,
15:34and then you might have one character who plays,
15:36you know, like the straight character,
15:37like they're the only character with like a brain type of thing,
15:40and, you know, it has a high gag rate,
15:42but then at the same time, it is very niche in,
15:47like, you know, the way the character speaks,
15:49and then, you know, the whole cultural references,
15:52because Jamie Dimitri, like, you know,
15:54he's from Cyprus, and that was really embedded in the show,
15:58so that had that very specific tone of voice and stuff,
16:02and then, you know, the whole, the way he would speak and stuff,
16:05like it kind of was like a mix of like a niche type of show and stuff.
16:09It's not really a show that you'd find on BBC,
16:12not on BBC One per se and stuff,
16:14especially because that was his first show,
16:16so before that show,
16:17that's the show that made him a star, right?
16:20So, yeah, you'd find that more on something like Channel 4
16:24and stuff like that.
16:27Yeah, I think that's the best way to describe it, yeah.
16:31I love this.
16:33I love this so much.
16:34I hope you guys are taking notes.
16:36In terms of, you mentioned low concept, right,
16:39and we often hear concept, high concept.
16:42What is low concept,
16:43and even could you break that down,
16:45the difference between high concept and low concept?
16:48Yeah, so low concept would be a show like The Office.
16:54You know, it's a comedy, mockumentary,
16:59just set in an office, just set in office life, you know,
17:02like kind of like everyday life.
17:05You know, it's not like, you know, cars exploding, you know,
17:09something big, just very like, kind of like a,
17:13for lack of a better term, like simple, easy world, you know,
17:17like phone shop, for example, you know, a comedy like that,
17:20like it's set in a phone shop, you know,
17:22like that's just like a normal everyday type of thing.
17:25High concept would be something like, let's see,
17:31like Game of Thrones, you know.
17:34Game of Thrones, that's a big, vast, massive world, you know,
17:38with magic and dragons and, you know,
17:41battles between armies of like thousands of,
17:45tens of thousands of people and stuff,
17:47and it's spanning various locations and whatnot.
17:51Yeah.
17:52I love that.
17:53So like low concept is like easy to execute, simple.
17:58Okay, I got you.
17:59Yeah, pretty much cheaper to execute.
18:01Yeah, overall.
18:02Yeah.
18:03So, right, given, oh, oh, oh, Channel 5.
18:10Oh, Channel 5.
18:16Channel 5, you know, I don't watch a lot of Channel 5.
18:19I don't know a lot of people.
18:20No, I reckon people, I don't know a lot of people that do,
18:22but from my understanding, if I'm wrong,
18:25someone can correct me in the comments.
18:28Channel 5.
18:31Okay, I'm left at ITV.
18:32ITV, I think they're trying to rebrand,
18:35but they're quite known, you know, for like mainstream,
18:41like really mainstream shows.
18:42So like I'm making up a title here.
18:45Let's say a show called The Awakening, you know,
18:49and just something,
18:51something which someone in middle Britain would watch, you know,
18:54that Charlotte from Buckinghamshire would just flip on, you know,
18:56it could be like a crime procedural or something like that.
19:01But I know with ITVX,
19:02they are starting to like rebrand and kind of shift towards more like
19:06modern type of shows, like obviously Riches and whatnot.
19:13Channel 5, I would say in a way,
19:15they also from my understanding they also are that type of channel,
19:19which is like just very like middle of the road, mainstream drama.
19:26Yeah.
19:27Love that.
19:28Love that.
19:29Love it.
19:30And lastly, Amazon.
19:33Amazon.
19:36Gosh, Amazon, they, from,
19:39from what I see and what they, to be honest,
19:42what they've been saying now,
19:43they are very also kind of similar to Netflix.
19:46They want mainstream, like big mainstream ideas,
19:49and they're very IP focused.
19:51So IP is an intellectual property.
19:54So like, for example,
19:59one of their marquee shows is the Lord of the Rings.
20:01Like they spent like $250 million to secure the rights to that.
20:06So like, you know, the Lord of the Rings, that's IP focused.
20:11Fallout is one of their newest shows.
20:13And that's quite big.
20:15That's based on the video game series.
20:18Invincible, which is based on a comic book series.
20:22It's an animation based on a comic book series.
20:25The Boys, a superhero show,
20:27once again, based on a comic book series.
20:31Reacher, which is like based on the Jack Reacher books,
20:36which was a film,
20:37the first time I saw that character on the screen,
20:39that was a film with Tom Cruise like 12 years ago.
20:42So they're quite, yeah, very much IP, IP focused.
20:48Not always, you know,
20:50there are some shows which don't fit into that box,
20:52but they seem to be like,
20:53oh, what's something with an established audience and stuff.
20:56And I guess, especially because something, you know,
20:59Amazon, it's, you know,
21:02started off as a bookseller, you know?
21:04So obviously they'll look into that marketplace
21:08and then also they own Audible.
21:11So they look for ideas on Audible, on that platform and say,
21:16oh, what can we, you know, turn into television?
21:19So, yeah.
21:24Oh my days, like, yeah.
21:28Do you know why I'm smiling, right?
21:30It's because this is so helpful.
21:36Like there's so many people that are frustrated
21:39and don't know why their ideas aren't getting picked up.
21:43Like you just encapsulated,
21:45well, this is why you're speaking to the right.
21:47Yeah, you got someone at Netflix's email address.
21:50That's great.
21:51But do you know what they want?
21:55Or do you have an idea?
21:56Because anything can happen.
21:57I know what you're saying is not an exhaustive,
22:00like it's really helpful
22:03because if your idea does fit into any of those boxes,
22:06it just helps, every little helps, isn't it?
22:09Why do you think a lot of creatives
22:11don't know what you just broke down?
22:14I'd say a lot of them don't know
22:16because it's not, it's just one of those things
22:18that's not spoken of outside the industry.
22:21Like, you know, the industry, it's like a big ivory tower,
22:25you know, with like these walls
22:27which are hard to penetrate and stuff.
22:29So a lot of this information,
22:30which is information which they should really teach
22:33in like screenwriting books.
22:34And there are some books I teach it to be fair,
22:36like, you know, Save the Cat Writes for TV,
22:41which I could pull up and show now,
22:43but my phone is actually being supported by it.
22:46So I'm not, that's like,
22:48that's a good book to like have that explains that.
22:51But yeah, it's just information that's just, you know,
22:56for whatever reason,
22:57the industry just likes to keep it to itself.
22:59And I guess it's because obviously, you know,
23:01we watch TV and we feel, oh, this looks so fun.
23:03So like the average job,
23:04like of course I love the Korean TV,
23:06but then are they really serious about it?
23:08Are they willing to do the work?
23:09Is there really something they'll do?
23:11So I guess for the industry,
23:12they keep these things to themselves
23:14because the more information you keep to yourself,
23:17then the harder it is for people to come in.
23:19And the few that make it in are people who are serious,
23:22but at the same time, someone could be really talented,
23:27but they just have that gap in knowledge.
23:30So I don't think it's something
23:32that should be denied to people, you know.
23:35Agreed.
23:36And thank you for sharing so graciously.
23:39What advice would you give to emerging creatives
23:43when it comes together,
23:45when it comes to putting their ideas together?
23:49Yeah.
23:52Number one, just refine your craft, isn't it?
23:55Like don't write the first draft of your script
23:58and be like, I'm done.
23:59Like you're not done.
24:01Write as many drafts as it needs.
24:03You will know when it's in a good place, you know.
24:06Obviously, when you take a script
24:07and a production company buys it,
24:09things change because it needs to be developed further.
24:11But there's a certain level which you get to before
24:14companies go back, yeah, there's something here.
24:17And yeah, so write and write again.
24:20Write something else.
24:21You've written a script, that's great.
24:22Write another script, you know.
24:23Like ultimately, you shouldn't be doing it
24:29because you enjoy it, you know.
24:31So don't harbour onto that one idea
24:34because that idea might not ever get made.
24:37Or that idea might just be something
24:39that gets you in the door,
24:40but it's something else that's really gonna take you further.
24:42So write multiple ideas.
24:46And then also, you know, when you can,
24:49like make your own stuff.
24:51Like obviously, as we all know,
24:53people make short films every day and stuff.
24:56Like, you know, short films, I'm not saying they're easy to make,
25:00but if you can find a team of talented people
25:02who believe in your idea and, you know,
25:05you get along with and stuff,
25:06then you can make like a little concept short film,
25:09which could even be attached to one of your bigger TV ideas.
25:12And it's like something to sell the premise.
25:15You know, these days, like something I've been
25:19venturing into lately, like audio dramas,
25:21like they're cheap to make.
25:23Like you can have a script that could,
25:26oh, if I make this,
25:28it's like a 15-minute audio drama,
25:30and that sells the concept of like my pilot script,
25:33then that could like get me in the room.
25:35And for an audio drama, all you need is a studio.
25:38You know, they're cheap studios that you can find online.
25:42Gets a few actors.
25:44And, you know, if you get some really talented actors,
25:47like in the smaller parts in your scripts,
25:50like a one-liner, which like a supporting artist would say,
25:54you could get your lead actor,
25:55hey, can you change your voice and do this line,
25:58you know, like double up here, you know what I mean?
26:00Like it doesn't cost a lot, to be honest.
26:03And then just find someone that can mix and, you know,
26:07get a good soundtrack in.
26:09And then there you go.
26:10And then you've made it for like, what?
26:12A few hundred pounds, as opposed to a short film
26:15where you might spend a couple thousand, you know?
26:18Yeah, do that.
26:21And then go out there, you know, meet people.
26:24You know, go to BAFTA, go on BAFTA, go online.
26:29They have screenings available to the public.
26:31Buy a ticket, like five pounds, six pounds.
26:33Go meet people in the audience,
26:36like producers and stuff will be there.
26:38Chat to them and stuff.
26:41Get a job in the industry.
26:42You know, that's what I did.
26:44Like get a job as a runner on set.
26:47Get a job as like an office runner, you know, and stuff.
26:52Start from there.
26:53Or a trainee, the different trainee programs.
26:55You know, you've got organizations like Film London.
26:59They're a really good one.
27:00They run one called the Equal Access Network.
27:03Or there's, you know, creative networks like The Cusp.
27:07You know, they're really great.
27:09You can join them, sign up online.
27:12What, just six pounds, 50 a month.
27:14And they have like regular like networking sessions
27:17and stuff like that.
27:18So like just get in there, you know what I mean?
27:20Like just put yourself out there, get to know people.
27:23And then the more people see your face,
27:24oh, I've seen you a few times.
27:26And then people are going to take an interest into like you.
27:29Oh, what is it you want to do?
27:31Then you tell them.
27:32And then, you know, they'll see how they can help you, you know.
27:35Like, and that's another thing.
27:37Be willing to like help people as opposed to just,
27:40oh, what can I get from you?
27:41Like meet someone.
27:43Oh, you're looking, you've got a short film.
27:46Oh, do you need like a runner?
27:48You know, like show them, yeah, I'm driven.
27:50I'm smart.
27:51You know, I'm proactive.
27:54I'm quick.
27:55I'll be a very helpful person on set.
27:57Help that person.
27:58And then that person is going to take a look and be like, oh,
28:00like what can I do for you?
28:03Yes.
28:04And stuff like that, you know.
28:06Email production companies be like, hey, do you need any readers?
28:10Like I was reading an article last night when I was in bed.
28:16And I don't know if you know that athlete, Ronda Rousey.
28:20Like she used to be a UFC fighter.
28:24Oh, wow.
28:25And then she was a wrestler, like in the WWE for a bit.
28:28And then, and she's been in a couple of movies.
28:31Like she's been in a couple of the Fast and Furious films.
28:33Then I was reading yesterday that she's now screenwriting.
28:37And she's got a deal with Netflix and stuff.
28:41And in order for her to learn to help her screenwriting,
28:44she did an internship at WME,
28:47which is like one of the big, world's biggest agencies.
28:50Like one of the top three agencies in the world.
28:53And don't get me wrong.
28:55Like obviously she was already a celebrity,
28:57so she had the connections to get that internship.
29:00But what I'm saying is she was like, I need to learn my craft.
29:04I can't just go in there like, I'm Ronda Rousey.
29:06Let me write a script so I can do it.
29:08No, she took the time,
29:10did an internship where she was a script reader at the company,
29:13reading different scripts.
29:14And she said she did that because in order to learn,
29:16she had to read.
29:18So email production companies be like,
29:21hey, do you need any freelance script readers?
29:23You know, some will be like, oh yeah, sure.
29:26Yeah, we've got one.
29:27Here's a script.
29:28Read a script.
29:29Learn how to do a script report.
29:30You do a script report and then you're learning,
29:32you're learning.
29:33And then you're also helping them because you're taking some workload
29:36off their back and then it can lead to something, you know?
29:39So yeah.
29:41I love that.
29:42I love that.
29:43Love that.
29:44That is, yeah.
29:45Yeah.
29:46Put in the work and whilst you're putting in the work,
29:51still create.
29:53So yeah, no, I absolutely love that.
29:58Given your time at, you know,
30:03various organisations and just being in the industry,
30:08how many projects tend to get green lit roughly?
30:18It's a small percent.
30:20I can't give you an exact number because each company has a different
30:25number of things in development and stuff.
30:27But like at Rough Cut, you know,
30:31we'll get thousands of submissions, like, sorry,
30:37not thousands of submissions.
30:38You'll get like maybe hundreds of submissions a year.
30:41Hundreds of submissions a year, you know?
30:45And that's like a small independent production company.
30:48You get like hundreds of submissions a year, emails,
30:51whatever agents are sending you.
30:53And then out of those hundreds,
30:55only a small amount is going to get put into the active development.
30:59And then even when it's a development,
31:01it's only a few which are actually going to go from development stage to
31:05green lit stage because it might not just work with the writer.
31:09The idea might not just be working.
31:13Or like example, when we're at Rough Cut,
31:16there was a show which they had in development, but then,
31:20and it was really good script, really good script,
31:23but they took it out to market.
31:26But because there was other shows kind of set in a similar world and one of
31:32them even had a similar title,
31:34the show didn't really get anywhere.
31:37It kept getting passed on, turned down,
31:39even though the show was really good.
31:41And then it kind of got, as far as I know to this day,
31:43left in what they call development hell.
31:47So yeah,
31:48there are very few shows that will go from development phase to like green
31:52lit phase.
31:53And then even when something does get green lit,
31:56like it all depends like what are the commissioners looking for,
32:01you know?
32:02So, and I always tell people,
32:04this industry doesn't know what it wants until it gets it because every time
32:07there's a show, right, and it's doing really well,
32:10they'll be like, oh, we want the next so-and-so,
32:13whatever that show is.
32:14Like for example, the show right now,
32:16everyone's talking about is Baby Reindeer, right?
32:18Really good show.
32:19And I know for a fact right now,
32:20someone in an office right now, a production company,
32:23there's someone pitching and they're like,
32:25or they're Netflix or Channel 4, they're talking to a commissioner.
32:29They're like, oh yeah.
32:30You know, Baby Reindeer meets Atlanta,
32:33but then whatever the next buzz worthy show is going to be,
32:37it's not going to be like Baby Reindeer because you can't do Baby Reindeer
32:40again. You can't do Atlanta again.
32:42Like this industry that always is so weird.
32:45They're always looking to, oh, we want the next, but then we'll learn time
32:50and time again.
32:53When Baby Reindeer was being pitched,
32:54there were people that passed on that.
32:56You know what I mean?
32:57There were people that said no to that because they didn't see the vision.
32:59There were people that passed on Atlanta.
33:01There were people that passed on Insecure, you know, Fleabag.
33:05They didn't see what it was.
33:07So you don't know what something's going to be until it becomes that thing.
33:10You know what I mean?
33:11So it's like, yeah, the commissioners, you know,
33:15it depends what they want and what they're saying they want.
33:18It's not based on necessarily their personal taste or the time.
33:22It's usually based on what their boss has given them at the channel.
33:26Like, this is what we need to fill in.
33:28This is what our audience needs.
33:29We're missing this type of show.
33:30We're missing this big family comedy.
33:32We're missing this procedural drama.
33:34So they need to tick those boxes and find a show that fits best into that box.
33:41And, you know, once again, a production company,
33:44your producer's pitching to these commissioners,
33:47but then all these other, gosh,
33:49hundreds of production companies in London alone.
33:52So they're going to have,
33:54they're going to be ideas because there's going to be some crossover somewhere
33:56and they're going to be pitching an idea.
33:58And that commissioner could be like, oh, you know what?
34:01Somebody already pitched that to us.
34:03And what they pitched was a better version.
34:05You know what I mean?
34:06So, yeah, it's a very, very small amount.
34:12Thank you.
34:13Thank you.
34:14Thank you.
34:15Thank you.
34:16Wow.
34:17This has been so insightful.
34:20I wanted to know,
34:21do you have any last pieces of advice for creatives or writers out there,
34:32just in general?
34:34I would say my biggest piece of advice would be just every step of your journey.
34:41Remember to, remember why you're doing it.
34:43Like if you're not enjoying it, you need to kind of pause and be like,
34:48why am I not finding this fun anymore?
34:51Am I focused too much on getting my show options, getting it greenlit?
34:58Am I focused too much on validation from the industry or my peers?
35:03Am I comparing myself?
35:05You know, like why am I doing this?
35:08Like if you're not having fun a bit, then you need to pause and reevaluate.
35:13Like it should be, you should be enjoying this at every stage.
35:15Like it will get frustrating,
35:17but even during the frustrating times, like just remember why you're doing it.
35:21Like, for example,
35:22like there's a script I've been started writing last year and I got some good
35:27notes in it.
35:28So I'm doing like a redraft on it.
35:29And I remember when I was doing my redraft,
35:30I was getting really frustrated because I was like, oh,
35:32I need to redraft this so I can send it to these people.
35:34They're waiting on me to do that.
35:36And then I said to myself, I was actually, no one,
35:41I'm not being paid to do this right now.
35:43So I do this in my own time.
35:46You know what I mean?
35:47Like, and I need to remember why I'm doing this.
35:51And I'm doing this because I love this idea and this is something which I'm
35:55passionate about.
35:56So let me just focus on that as opposed to,
35:58I need to get this right so I can get it to this person at this time.
36:01And then once I started doing that, it just started to,
36:04the rewriting process just started to become a lot more smoother, you know?
36:07So just remind yourself why you're doing this, you know,
36:12and make sure it's for the right reasons.
36:14Thank you so much, bro.
36:16Amazing.