Yourcinemafilms.com | Award-winning actor, writer and director Tamzin Murray (Donuts & Ice-Cream, Satellites) shares why she took time out of acting & how she self-funded her debut play Donuts & Ice-Cream!
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Are you ready for the truth?
’Welcome to Your Cinema'
Follow us on socials:
Tiktok: @yourcinemafilms
Instagram: @yourcinemafilms
Twitter: @yourcinemafilms
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FunTranscript
00:00Now everyone's making it in film and TV, but we don't really know how.
00:06Here we uncover the truth.
00:08Welcome to the Your Cinema Podcast.
00:12Welcome to the Your Cinema Podcast where we explore the truth about the film and TV industry
00:18and theatre and hear it directly from those who are smashing it in their areas.
00:24Today we've got an absolutely amazing guest.
00:27She's an award-winning actor, a writer, a director, a producer, a future showrunner
00:34and all-round great creative.
00:36We've got Tamsin Murray in the building.
00:38What's going on?
00:43Do you know what?
00:44I'm so happy that we made this happen.
00:50It's been a while, hasn't it?
00:52It has.
00:53It's been a very long while.
00:56It's been a minute.
00:58Definitely.
00:59But we're here.
01:00We made it.
01:01We're doing it.
01:02We are here.
01:03Yes, indeed.
01:04And you are doing bits.
01:05Lots of bits.
01:06Lots of bits.
01:07Yeah.
01:08I remember, right, it was 2019 when we did the Ross Awards, which I think we should probably
01:17bring back at some point.
01:19I think you should too.
01:20It was great.
01:21I think we should, innit?
01:24You won an award for, I believe it was Rising Star.
01:29Rising Star.
01:30Yeah.
01:31And I remember that time because I think just watching you as a creative at that time, right,
01:39you were, like, this was voted for by the public, innit?
01:44But I remember just watching you and, you know, loving creatives and loving creative
01:56work.
01:57And you were just, there was just loads of stuff that you were doing.
02:01And I felt like it made sense and it was well deserved.
02:05Do you know what I mean?
02:07Thank you so much.
02:08I just wanted to know, like, I think in seeing you at that time, I thought, okay, cool, this
02:15is how it goes.
02:16You know, people, because I remember you were in Pride and Pact and then you did your own
02:21short with CJ Beckford and that was amazing.
02:25And I was just like, okay, this is exciting.
02:27You know, the process happens where it's like, cool, they keep doing a few independent projects,
02:32they get signed and they get into, you know, a mainstream project and then the roles get
02:37bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger.
02:39And I remember, maybe like a few years after, I was like, oh, okay, cool.
02:44Oh, I wonder, where's Tamsin?
02:46What's going on?
02:47So before we touch on what's happening today, I kind of want to take it back to around 2019,
02:542020.
02:55And yeah, like...
02:57What was going on then?
02:59Yeah, like after that award, like what?
03:02Yeah, what was happening?
03:05I think a lot was happening and a lot, a lot was happening in that time, both professionally
03:14and personally.
03:16And so when I spoke to you, I was working on the play that I've actually just done now,
03:21but it was in its baby seed form.
03:24And so I was working on the script and I wanted to do a private reading just with some theatre
03:29heads to really flesh out the script, to just figure out what was working and what wasn't.
03:35And I did that.
03:38And then the pandemic happened.
03:41So that kind of like took out a whole load of time.
03:45And I was still able to write during that time.
03:48I was still able to create.
03:49But I also kind of was going through a really interesting time with acting as a whole and
03:56I was questioning it.
03:58And I was questioning whether or not, not whether or not I should be doing it, but how
04:05best to do it, because there is a lot within acting that just isn't in your control.
04:11You don't have a say in a lot of regards.
04:15And so there was a lot of decisions that were out of my hands.
04:18And so I was trying to figure out what the best next step was.
04:22And at the time I was working at a foster care agency and I worked with some incredible
04:29families and I was just like, God, if you don't want me to produce, because at the moment
04:37my life is very mainstream.
04:39I have a nine to five.
04:40I work at a foster care agency.
04:42If this is not what you want me to do, I will stay here.
04:46Just take the desire away.
04:48But if you do want me to do it, then I need you to open a door or a window or something.
04:53Because right now I have a desire to produce.
04:55I have a desire to act.
04:57And at the moment I can't see any of them happening.
05:01And so I just prayed that prayer and just left it there.
05:04And then I saw this advertisement come up for the NFTS, the National Film and Television
05:11School.
05:12And I was like, that sounds really interesting.
05:16Just going to check it out.
05:17And I went on the website and I was like, OK, well, it's really expensive and I have
05:22no business doing a master's.
05:24I didn't even have a degree.
05:26So it really was a thing of I have no business looking at a master's degree.
05:32But there was something on their website that stood out to me, which spoke about experience.
05:37And so if you have experience, still apply and we'll be able to have a conversation.
05:42And so I prayed about it again.
05:44And I was like, I have such a love-hate relationship with the education system.
05:50So it just really was a thing of I absolutely love to study and I love to learn.
05:57But I think when I was younger, I didn't know what I wanted to study.
06:01So I didn't stick to it.
06:06I didn't stick to studying.
06:08And so very long story short, I applied.
06:11I got in.
06:12I actually got a scholarship to go.
06:15And they looked at the experience that I had in the industry prior and they said that that
06:19was enough.
06:20They said that it had spoken for itself.
06:23And the head of department at the time wrote a supporting statement to say why he believed
06:26that I should be on the course.
06:29And so that was where I disappeared to.
06:31I went and did my master's.
06:32I think with acting, I had been doing it for quite a while.
06:36And with producing, I didn't know as much about it.
06:39I didn't know how to produce something technically.
06:44I'd been doing it, but I'd been winging it.
06:46And so I wanted to actually learn what I need to look out for, you know, what challenges
06:51might come up, but also how to do it well, how to do it professionally and to understand
06:57it technically as well.
06:59And so, yeah, I went, did my master's, became a student again.
07:03And I literally graduated this year.
07:05I graduated in February.
07:07So, yes, that's where I disappeared to.
07:10So I still was the rising star.
07:13I just was in hibernation.
07:16I was in my little cocoon and I was really knuckling down just because if you want to
07:21be good at something, I think studying it as much as possible and spending time with
07:26it as much as possible.
07:28And I found that even with acting, you know, I want to go back and train just so that you
07:34are consistently keeping yourself sharp.
07:36You know, as a producer, I feel confident.
07:39As an actor, I feel confident.
07:41But I always don't think you should settle.
07:44I think you should always want to be better, want to refine.
07:47There's always something new you can learn and do.
07:49And I think the idea of that excites me.
07:52So, yeah, that's where I was.
07:54Amazing.
07:55Amazing.
07:56Now, the National Film and Television School is, it's like one of the best.
08:03It's a very prestigious, like, I don't know if I'm right in calling it just a film
08:10school, but it's top notch, do you know what I mean?
08:15Yeah, yeah, yeah.
08:16Yeah.
08:17So what would you say you learned?
08:21Well, I was in TV entertainment.
08:24So my master's is in directing and producing TV entertainment.
08:27And I had no idea at all.
08:31So I actually learned everything because I was coming in as a complete newbie.
08:37And I really respected them for bringing me in as somebody who didn't have as much
08:41experience, where a lot of my peers in my class had experience in that front.
08:46But them believing that I would be able to catch up and I would be able to get to
08:51the same level as everybody else and we'd all be on par.
08:55So I definitely learned about TV entertainment.
08:59I learned a lot about running a production, a full scale production, managing a budget.
09:05I learned a lot about, I think, bringing together a casting crew.
09:10I kind of already was familiar with doing that.
09:14But things like risk assessments, child licenses, running a TV studio, because it
09:21was directing and producing, my course meant that I came in close proximity with
09:25multi-camera directing and how you run a studio, how you lay out a camera script,
09:33liaising with script supervisors, your soundies, your lighting, all of that.
09:40Yeah, I learned pretty much all of it in two years.
09:45Wow.
09:46Yeah.
09:47This is amazing.
09:49It was great.
09:51And I'm so happy that you went and learned those other competencies.
09:58I think that's probably the best way to say it.
10:00But the reason I say that is because we're in the age of multi-hyphenates.
10:06And I think even before you went to go and study, like you said, you were producing,
10:12you've been writing, you've been directing.
10:15So it seems like I think maybe people may have seen you more as an actor.
10:22I know I definitely did back in 2019 because that's maybe what I saw more of.
10:28But it seems like in this time that the fullness of you as a creative has been
10:34built upon, which is quite interesting.
10:37But I would ask you, right, so in those years of, okay, directing, producing,
10:44learning all of these technicalities and logistical things that I need to know.
10:50Yeah.
10:51What was happening with your desire for acting?
10:54Because it seems like, was that just on hold for like three years then?
11:02It kind of was.
11:04It kind of was on hold in that I couldn't work.
11:08I couldn't really work professionally because the Masters was very full time.
11:12It was full on.
11:14And I had an amazing agent at the time who wanted, he let me stay on his books.
11:21And he was just like, I completely understand.
11:23Just let me know when your holidays are and I will work that out for you.
11:27It was really, really, really lovely.
11:29And I think it got to the second year where I realised this is a lot.
11:34It's actually not even fair to be on someone's books and like occupy that space.
11:41But I had an interesting period with acting right before I actually started
11:48my Masters where, like I said, I wasn't sure whether or not it was what I,
11:55if it was what I was supposed to be doing.
11:59And as much as I knew I had a gift and I loved doing it,
12:03things weren't working out that were allowing me to do it.
12:07So I was like, maybe I'm supposed to be doing something else.
12:09And if that's the case, show me the way.
12:12And of course, you fall into like doubt, you fall into fear,
12:17you fall into all of these little traps that are always laid out along the way.
12:22And I kind of did put it on a back burner because it just wasn't happening.
12:30So I was like, if it's not happening, maybe it's not supposed to happen
12:35in this way or at this time.
12:38And so maybe there's something else that I'm supposed to be doing.
12:42And it's really interesting in my second year of acting,
12:47because I literally I didn't want to watch anything.
12:49I didn't want to see anything that reminded me of acting.
12:51I didn't want to, I was really in a bubble with acting
12:55where I was like, I don't think I'm supposed to be doing this.
13:00And so I, what did I do?
13:04I, yeah, I stopped watching shows.
13:06I was like, I don't want to watch anything.
13:08I don't want to see anything because I can't look at it
13:10without being in love with performing.
13:13And so it was quite difficult to watch it just as an audience member.
13:18And plus I had loads of work to do.
13:20So I was just burying myself in my degree.
13:24But in my second year, I was, where I was living
13:29had this beautiful window, which was perfect for self-tapes.
13:33Natural lighting was great.
13:34And I just started taping.
13:36I don't know what it was that prompted it.
13:38I think I might've been watching.
13:41I can't remember what I was watching.
13:43It might've been Scandal or something like that.
13:45I was re-watching something.
13:46I slowly started to re-watch things that I'd watched before.
13:49And I wanted to understand how the pilot,
13:53like how the first episode of Scandal was made,
13:55what the structure of it was.
13:57I wanted to really understand the text.
13:59So I was watching it for research and falling in love with the journey.
14:05And I was like, I remember that feeling when I was a kid
14:10and I first started acting and I would watch a film
14:13and I would pause the film after every line
14:15and write down what they were saying.
14:17And then I'd take the script that I've now typed up
14:20and I'd read it back.
14:22I'd play it and I'd play the character
14:24and I'd do it in a different way.
14:25And I'd like perform to myself.
14:27Nobody was watching, but it was this really raw,
14:31I didn't know anything about script databases.
14:33So I would type it up and I would teach myself the scripts
14:37and I'd become the character.
14:38And that would be men, women, old guys,
14:41like all types, like animal, like everything I would become.
14:47And it kind of felt like that at the beginning
14:49of my second year in my master's.
14:53And so I was like, you know what?
14:55I still love acting just as much as I've ever loved it.
14:59I am going to treat this time as a time to train,
15:04as a time to practice.
15:06I'm going to treat my life as if I've got two days
15:09to learn a self-tape.
15:10And so I'm going to learn a script,
15:12just I'm going to learn a monologue
15:14or I'm going to learn a scene in two days
15:17and treat it as if somebody's just sent me an audition
15:20and I have to know it and I have to deliver a self-tape.
15:23And I'm going to make sure
15:24that my self-tape set up is on point.
15:26I'm going to make sure that I'm ready
15:28for when that time comes so that I don't have the excuse
15:31of I'm really busy because life gets busy.
15:33And there will be times where you're really busy
15:36but I want to be in the habit of being able to say,
15:38okay, cool, I've got a tape, my set up's here,
15:41I'm going to learn it, bash it out and then that's it.
15:45So I fell back in love with acting
15:47in the second year of my master's
15:49but I did definitely put it on hold for a while.
15:53Yeah.
15:54I like that.
15:56That is, that is, yeah, that's amazing.
16:03It seems like there was this honesty
16:09and peace that you came to, right?
16:13Which I'll break down what I'm saying.
16:15So like the first year where you,
16:18where you kind of made peace with not acting.
16:21Yeah.
16:22It's like, cool, logically, I'm not going to do it
16:25but my heart is still, you know,
16:27like when it's a raw rude and you're like, oh,
16:31so it's like, no, I don't want to watch anything.
16:34Yeah.
16:35Which may speak to the fact that,
16:37that desire is still there
16:39but you're logically keeping it there,
16:42which is, you know, willpower.
16:43That's great.
16:44Yes, yeah.
16:45Then what seems to have happened
16:47is there's this nice blossoming of like,
16:50I don't know when.
16:52Yeah.
16:53I'm just going to do this in the meantime.
16:56Just gonna.
16:57And if something happens, cool, if not,
17:00which isn't very nice.
17:01It's, it's that there's not a desperation.
17:05Yes, yes.
17:07And I think that came through my masters.
17:11I'm really grateful that I did the course
17:13because I think my confidence grew a lot
17:16and it grew and I,
17:20I feel like I kind of had that years ago
17:23and over the years it dwindles and it disappears
17:25and it's not what it was.
17:28But when I was younger,
17:29I had that confidence of this thing will happen
17:32when it's supposed to happen.
17:33And all you need to do is nurture your gift,
17:36nurture your talent
17:37and don't lose the sense of play
17:40or the sparkle,
17:44the thing that makes you you,
17:46don't lose that.
17:49And I think doing my masters reminded me of that.
17:52I was looking back at the journey
17:53and I had to, even at the end of my second year,
17:57I had to reflect on my time
17:59and share how it's been and what did I learn.
18:04And I was like, you know what?
18:06I don't need to bang down every single door
18:09in a desperate manner in the way that I did
18:12because actually doors will open
18:14as and when they're supposed to open.
18:16If you're doing what you're supposed to be doing,
18:17you'll be seen and it's not hiding.
18:20It's not saying, oh, everybody should come to me,
18:22but it's just do what you do,
18:24care about it, love it, do it well,
18:26try your best to do it well,
18:28even if it doesn't go to plan.
18:31Like we're allowed to have first drafts,
18:33we're allowed to have first attempts
18:35and it might not be perfect,
18:36but you're doing something
18:38and people see the something that you're doing
18:40and people care about that
18:42because you care about it.
18:44Whereas when I think what had started to happen
18:47is I was like, I need to do this.
18:50It's my bread and butter.
18:52And it was, it was, it was my life,
18:58but it meant that I was showing up in rooms
19:01with my bills and everything else
19:04that like, not that it doesn't matter,
19:07but that's not how I should be showing up in the room,
19:09but I'm showing up like, I need this to work.
19:12I need this to be the thing.
19:15Whereas now it's different.
19:18I'm like, if it doesn't work, it's okay.
19:23If that way doesn't work, that's okay
19:27because how it is supposed to work, it will happen.
19:31And if not, you learn a lesson
19:33and you take the lesson and you run with that lesson
19:35because it will make you better.
19:37So yes, that's what happens.
19:41Wow, I love that.
19:43I love that.
19:44That is, that's so key
19:46because it's not a, it's a journey.
19:49It's not a race.
19:51Yes.
19:52Like, you know.
19:54Exactly.
19:55Yeah.
19:56Exactly.
19:57Exactly.
19:58And if you see it as a race,
19:59you will start to compete in ways
20:01that you don't need to compete.
20:03It's not a competition.
20:04There is more than enough room
20:06for every single one of us to hold space
20:09because every single one of us is talented
20:12and has been given a different stream of,
20:15it's like, someone said this once
20:17and I can't remember who it is,
20:19but whoever it is, they will know.
20:21But someone said it once about cookies.
20:24You could go into the cookie aisle
20:26and it's literally a cookie aisle.
20:28There's so many brands, but I could,
20:31my brother is a diehard chocolate biscuit fan.
20:36Do you know what I mean?
20:37But I know people that ride for custard creams
20:40and my grandma rides for rich tea.
20:42Do you know what I mean?
20:43Do you know what I mean?
20:44Like, it's very specific.
20:46And on some days you might want all three.
20:48You might want crackers.
20:49Do you know what I mean?
20:50Like, it's very, very, very specific.
20:54Every single one of them is just as good as the other.
20:57Do you know what I mean?
20:58But there is a specific day where you're feeling,
21:01or a specific time where you're feeling for something.
21:03And I think there is more than enough space
21:07in our very highly saturated industry
21:11for all of us.
21:13And it's finding a way to be content with where you're at
21:18while also still striving for where it is
21:21that you want to be.
21:23But I think when you're content with where you're at,
21:25it allows you to be there comfortably
21:27and to do well there.
21:29So yeah.
21:30Wow.
21:31I love that.
21:32The wisdom.
21:33They click, isn't it, at the purchases and stuff?
21:36Yeah, yeah, yeah.
21:37No, I love it.
21:38So you've done the Master's, right?
21:43And as well as going on an amazing journey as a creative,
21:47an amazing creative journey.
21:49So you've done, you've got the qualification
21:52and the personal work has taken place.
21:56So yeah.
21:57What's happened now?
21:59What's happened now?
22:01What are you asking me?
22:03So in terms of where you were at when you finished,
22:07what were you looking to do?
22:11So when I finished, I knew.
22:15So towards the end of my Master's,
22:17I think probably the last six months, I'd settled.
22:20I want to become a showrunner.
22:23And I didn't really fully know how,
22:28but I knew that that's what I wanted to do.
22:31I knew I still wanted to perform.
22:34I knew I wanted to produce.
22:36I knew I wanted to create projects and either write them all myself
22:41or collaborate with writers and have a writer's room.
22:44And we create, whether it's a series or it's a film
22:47or whatever that may be.
22:48But we create something that we can put out,
22:51that we can then bring other actors into.
22:53And I knew that was my desire.
22:55And before it felt like I was doing 50 million things
22:59and it was difficult to know what it is.
23:03And my Master's helped me to see that's what it is that I want to do.
23:09And I started to see the examples of people who do that really well.
23:13So we talk about Shonda Rhimes, I think we spoke about her.
23:18Phoebe Waller-Bridge, she did that.
23:20And she performed in the very thing that she created, Michaela.
23:23There are people who are doing these things and doing them well.
23:28And a lot of the examples that I'd looked at before
23:31were American examples.
23:33And it was only recently I started to look at who we have here
23:37and how they're doing it well here.
23:40And so, yeah, I knew I wanted to do that.
23:43And so I think in December...
23:48Ooh, before we get to December, right,
23:51could you break down what a showrunner is, please?
23:57In my understanding of what a showrunner is,
24:00so a showrunner is essentially the producer and creator
24:04of a particular show.
24:06They run the show, essentially.
24:08And so that would be all of the producing responsibilities.
24:13So the cast, the crew, the scripts.
24:16Sometimes the scripts can be solely by that person.
24:19Other times they might have collaborators
24:21who work on the script with them.
24:24To oversee the overall vision of where the show's going.
24:27Okay, yep.
24:28Exactly, exactly.
24:30The attention to detail to the things that go in.
24:33So certain musical choices.
24:35They would hire people to do these things,
24:38but they would have a say in what that looks like
24:41and how that shapes up to be.
24:43And there are some people who choose to be in the projects
24:48that they create as well, but there are also people who don't.
24:51And so they would say, okay, I'm not going to be a part of that,
24:55but I want to facilitate the functioning of this thing.
24:59So someone like Issa Rae would be a great example
25:02that people probably would connect to,
25:04where she's come up with this whole entire thing of Insecure
25:08and being able to run that, but also being able to be in it.
25:12Yes, and then you can have producers working within that,
25:15but you're still the overarching creator of that particular show.
25:19Love that, thank you.
25:21Great.
25:22So yeah, you were saying in December?
25:25In December, yeah, you're kind of winding down.
25:30I'd done my graduation project, which was a 24-minute pilot.
25:37It was a children's puppet show musical,
25:39which was very fun, very ambitious.
25:43And so I'd been working on that,
25:45and we finished that October, November.
25:48And so I was like, okay, what is in my hand?
25:52What have I been sleeping on?
25:53What do I want to do next?
25:55And Donuts and Ice Cream is a play that I'd written,
25:59a short play that I'd written years ago,
26:02and then I'd started the draft for the full-length one
26:04before the pandemic.
26:05And so it had kind of been in the back of my mind,
26:09and it's always been there.
26:13And I'd been thinking throughout my Master's,
26:15would it work as a TV show?
26:16Would it work as a series?
26:18Would it work as a film?
26:19How do I want it to be?
26:21And so I knew when I came out of school,
26:23that was the first thing that I wanted to focus on.
26:25I had other ideas and other things that I wanted to create,
26:28but I was very much determined to do the first thing
26:33that I had in my mind, to commit to doing that.
26:36And if I do that, then I will do the other things.
26:39No more unfinished projects.
26:41That was my thing.
26:42Coming out, nothing is being left unfinished again.
26:46So yes, I talk a lot, don't I?
26:51I love it.
26:52I love it.
26:53I love it.
26:54You're saying all the right, there's no waffle here.
26:57So I, yeah, so basically I came out
27:01and I'd started working on the full-length script.
27:04I just started working on that.
27:05And I'd actually also started writing the pilot episode,
27:08just to see what that would look like
27:11and start to frame whether that could work.
27:14And so I think Sunday, I shared a testimony.
27:18It was a Sunday, was it a Sunday?
27:20It was, that's a lie.
27:22It was New Year's Eve.
27:23It might be Sunday.
27:24I don't know.
27:25I shared a testimony at my church on New Year's Eve.
27:28And Ryan, who's a really good friend of mine, was there
27:33and he heard the testimony and he reached out and was like,
27:37he was really blessed by the testimony.
27:38Let's do your show.
27:40And I was like, me?
27:43You want to do my show?
27:45Okay.
27:46That's really cool.
27:48My show that I was still writing.
27:50So I was like, this is amazing.
27:53And I think it's that thing of like,
27:55if you stay ready, you don't have to get ready.
27:58I was already halfway through writing the script.
28:01So I didn't have to start from scratch.
28:03It was more just now I had a deadline
28:05of when I needed to finish the script by
28:08and I had something to work towards
28:10and someone who was willing to do it with me.
28:13And so, yeah, I knuckled down, started writing
28:17and he was like, yeah, yeah, we're going to do it in March.
28:20And I was like, that's great.
28:22Because March was the time that I said
28:24that I wanted to do it by.
28:25And he was like, it's going to be tight,
28:26but we can aim for it.
28:28And so I initially was aiming for March
28:31just because the subject matter is
28:33around a condition called endometriosis
28:36and their awareness month is March.
28:38So that was my ideal target.
28:42And then eventually we shifted the dates to April
28:45just because there was something
28:47that we couldn't do within the venue.
28:49So we needed to actually move it.
28:50It was out of our control.
28:53But yeah, basically knuckled down, started writing
28:59and then had to think about, okay,
29:01who's going to play what role.
29:03Before that, right, though, hold on, sorry.
29:06Like, you've kind of, you've just,
29:12I just want to bring into the foreground who Ryan is.
29:15So, you know, oh yeah, you know, Ryan, my friend.
29:18Oh, Ryan.
29:21He has been making a huge amount of noise
29:26in theatre, like mainstream theatre as well
29:29in the past two years for Black Boys.
29:34Can you give a bit of context to like what he's done?
29:37What he's done.
29:38Ryan Calais Cameron is a brilliant, brilliant writer
29:43and creator of work in our industry.
29:47He has worked, obviously, like we spoke about
29:50on for Black Boys, which is running in the West End now
29:53which has just done so incredibly well.
29:57It's so moving.
29:58It's so touching.
29:59It's so real.
30:00I remember the first time I saw it
30:02as this thing hits deep, but also Queens of Sheba
30:07which did its UK, US tour.
30:09That has been doing crazy, crazy, crazy, crazy things.
30:14It's so brilliant.
30:16And the casts have consistently been strong.
30:19It's a female cast.
30:21They are brilliant.
30:22Jessica Kelisa is the director of Queens of Sheba
30:25and she is fantastic.
30:27That woman is fantastic and has really brought that to life.
30:31So they work together in that.
30:33But he's done other shows like Typical, Resonate.
30:37He's done a lot of work with his company Nouveau Riche
30:40and it's amazing to be able to have content like this.
30:46There was a show that Ryan did called Retrograde
30:50which was also another really strong piece
30:54which I believe was about Sidney Poitier.
30:56And it was really strong, really witty,
31:00very, very well done.
31:02And I think that there's something to be said
31:04about when you take something
31:07and you try your hand at something new or a new style
31:11and you want to see what that looks like.
31:13He's exceptionally talented and it's an honour.
31:17He started delving into TV
31:20and it's an honour to see that transition
31:22and see how it works.
31:25And it's someone to be very excited about, definitely.
31:30So yeah, you and Ryan are working on this play.
31:36But yeah, you were talking about the cast.
31:39Like, I just want to share.
31:41Oh, I should also add, I'm so sorry to interrupt.
31:44I was just thinking I should also add
31:46the writer of Queens of Sheba, Jessica Hagen,
31:49is another one who is fantastic.
31:51She's amazing.
31:53So between Jessica Hagen, Jessica Kallisa
31:55and Ryan Kelly Cameron, all three of those
31:57are forces to be reckoned with.
32:00They are so talented.
32:02And all three of them are people who,
32:06in the theatre world and beyond,
32:09I think we should all be very excited about
32:12because they're just scratching the surface.
32:14I love that. I love that.
32:16Thank you for bringing that to our attention.
32:19Yeah, it's cool.
32:21So you've got the A-team.
32:23You've got the A-team on board
32:25for this amazing, amazing story and project, right?
32:30And you were talking about cast.
32:34Yes, cast.
32:36So I didn't think casting would be as...
32:42I didn't think it would be difficult
32:44because I had done the play before, like I said,
32:47and there was three other main actors.
32:50And then when I did the full-length draft,
32:52I was like, actually, I think I want to include a guy.
32:55And so I think I want to keep two women
32:57and have a guy on board.
32:59And so the story is about a young woman
33:01who is on a lengthy journey to being diagnosed
33:03with a condition called endometriosis.
33:06And it shows how that affects her day-to-day.
33:09So endometriosis can affect...
33:12It can affect fertility in some cases,
33:15but on a day-to-day basis,
33:17it's often the reason behind severe stomach cramps,
33:20back pain, nausea, fainting, dizziness,
33:22all of that type of stuff.
33:24And so it affects one in ten women.
33:27It's quite widespread,
33:29but it takes eight to ten years to diagnose oftentimes.
33:34So it takes a really, really long time.
33:36And so women are often...
33:38People are living with this condition,
33:40being in pain, having to show up to work,
33:43having to show up to their families
33:46and everything else that they are required to show up to,
33:50but often living with a pain that people can't see,
33:53a chronic pain that people can't see.
33:55And so I wanted to tell that story.
33:57And so with the cast,
33:59I knew that there was the girl who's going through it
34:01plus her two best friends.
34:03And from the original cast,
34:06they get first dibs.
34:08So I was like,
34:09do you guys want to be on board?
34:10And they were like, absolutely.
34:11So I was like, great, I've got my girls.
34:13Wait, so Deja and Jessica were in the first?
34:16No, so Jessica was in the first one
34:18and Deja wasn't in the first one.
34:21So there's another girl called Oyen
34:23who's also fantastic and is a brilliant Gabby.
34:27And so she got first dibs.
34:28And then she couldn't do it
34:31just because her schedule had to change
34:34and she wouldn't have been able to make the run of the show,
34:37the evening performances.
34:38So I was like, okay, I need to find somebody else.
34:41But I didn't want to cast for it.
34:43I didn't want to cast for it
34:45just because I was sure
34:50that I would be able to find someone
34:53with that dynamic of just...
34:55And Deja, the brilliant human being that she is,
35:03when Jessica was casting for Queens of Sheba this time around,
35:06there was a day where they needed someone to fill in
35:10as one of the readers to work with the actors.
35:12And so she asked me, I did that.
35:14And that was where I met Deja.
35:15And I thought, this girl is fantastic.
35:18She's funny.
35:19Her humor.
35:21Oh my gosh.
35:23Oh my gosh.
35:24Deja is the funniest person.
35:26And her and Jessica were just going back and forth.
35:31And I was like, this needs to be captured.
35:34Some way, somehow it needs to be captured.
35:36So when I was thinking about casting,
35:38I was like, do I need to cast?
35:40And I was like, is there anyone I know?
35:42Before I cast it, there must be someone that I know.
35:45And I remembered that day.
35:47And I remembered that encounter.
35:49And I was like, if she's free,
35:51seeing these two on stage would be amazing.
35:55Because I knew Jessica was on board already.
35:57And Deja said yes.
35:59And I was like, I have my girls.
36:04Because they smashed it.
36:07They are so good together.
36:09Yeah, it was brilliant.
36:12So that was behind that.
36:14And then Duane, I knew I wanted to have a male character
36:18in the story because I wanted to show how sometimes
36:25these conditions can affect the person who is supporting you.
36:28And so I wanted to show that, yes,
36:30through the friendship group, but also through the partner.
36:34And how it affects him.
36:36And it was still something, the play that we did,
36:39it's a work in progress.
36:41So it's still something that we're exploring.
36:43But I wanted to show how it can affect him.
36:46How sometimes we forget to ask, how are you feeling?
36:52You know, how are you doing?
36:54Because it does affect the other person,
36:56even though you're the one that's physically going through it.
36:59And I also didn't want him to be squeaky clean.
37:02I wanted someone who was a little bit rough around the edges.
37:06Because I wanted him to feel human.
37:09I wanted him to feel like somebody that I know
37:12who is doing their best to show up.
37:14And doesn't always get it right.
37:16And doesn't always say the right thing.
37:18But actually his heart wants to be there.
37:20And his heart wants to support.
37:22And Duane is a beautiful gift to our industry.
37:26He's so talented.
37:28He is a talent.
37:31Oh my gosh.
37:33But also he's like a sponge.
37:35And he just absorbs everything.
37:38And you can give him a note, he'll take that note and run with it.
37:41He's fantastic.
37:43He's really, really, really great.
37:45So we had a really strong cast on board.
37:48And yeah, that was one thing I could tick off quite early on.
37:55Cast we've got.
37:57So it was great.
37:59I love it.
38:00So then in terms of director.
38:03You've got the cast which is obviously so key.
38:08But then because you didn't direct on this.
38:14So where did you find a director for it?
38:17Where did I find a director?
38:20From heaven.
38:22She was a gift.
38:24An absolute gift.
38:27So when we first started the project,
38:31there was a director who was working with Nouveau Riche at the time.
38:34And so I thought if we could get the director who is working with them already,
38:38at least they're familiar with how they work.
38:41And how, you know, the type of show that we're creating.
38:45And so I was in talks with the director to be on board.
38:48But scheduling wise they weren't able to do it.
38:51So that was absolutely fine.
38:53I had to find somebody.
38:55And so I asked a few people in theatre that I knew.
38:58Do you know anyone who might be interested in either this or future projects?
39:03And Danielle was recommended.
39:07And I went on her page and saw her beautiful work that she's done.
39:13And smiling face.
39:15And I reached out.
39:19And I didn't know her at all.
39:21But I reached out.
39:23And she said yes.
39:25She said yes.
39:27And we had a meeting.
39:29And it was great.
39:31We realised that we actually had worked in the same theatre company that we went to as kids.
39:36We'd both been there.
39:38So even though it was at different times,
39:40we'd kind of been in the same space.
39:43And so I was like, oh, that's it.
39:45She's great.
39:46If you've been there, you're great.
39:48And so she came on board.
39:50And I think she's fantastic because there was a lot of things.
39:53We didn't have a budget.
39:55So there was a lot of things that were challenges for us.
39:57And a lot of things that we needed to change and tweak.
40:02And Danielle rode that wave with grace, with professionalism, with skill, with joy.
40:11She was fantastic.
40:14She's a really, really amazing person to work with.
40:17So overall, the whole team was great.
40:21And I think it was a great start for me to the types of shows that I create,
40:25types of projects that I create.
40:26I always want the team to be strong.
40:29I want it to be that everybody is passionate about what they do,
40:33but also respectful and able to just laugh.
40:36And it shouldn't feel like a chore.
40:38Because you're going to have challenges that come along the way.
40:41So if you're working with a team who's already really, really just warm,
40:46it allows you to ride those things, whatever they are,
40:49whether they're personal or professional,
40:51to ride that wave as smoothly as possible.
40:54So, yeah, we were really blessed.
40:56Really, really blessed.
40:58I love it. I love it.
40:59And for, like, the play is amazing.
41:02I've told you so many times.
41:07And do you know what?
41:08I love the do-it-yourself mentality and creative way of exploring the idea
41:18and bringing it to life.
41:20Because it's like, look, I've got this idea.
41:23You know, whoever, BBC haven't commissioned me yet,
41:26but I know this thing lives inside of me and I just want it out.
41:29And I'm a creative, so I got it done.
41:33Which I think would be really inspiring for a lot of people, right?
41:37So I would ask you, in that vein of, like, just getting it done,
41:42how did you finance it?
41:45How did I do what?
41:46How did you finance it, like, in terms of,
41:49because it's your own play, isn't it?
41:50So I'm like.
41:53That's such an interesting question.
41:58There was no budget, yeah.
42:00There was no budget at all.
42:05And so this project was created to be like Black Box Theatre,
42:11so very stripped back.
42:14It's a workshop production.
42:15We did a workshop production.
42:17And so the idea is that it's very stripped back, you know, no set,
42:22very, very minimal costume if you're going to have costume.
42:26The lighting would be the lighting, of course,
42:28that's provided by the theatre.
42:29It's a stripped back type of show.
42:33But it's also great because,
42:35and one thing that I've learned from doing it in that way,
42:41and the desire or the desire to do it in that way,
42:44is your work then has to hold up.
42:48Your script has to hold up.
42:50And your cast have to hold up because there's nothing to hide behind.
42:54There isn't bells and whistles.
42:55There isn't a grand set.
42:56There isn't a whole load of money.
42:59And those things are incredible additions.
43:02You do need those things.
43:04But when everything is stripped back, it's like singing a cappella.
43:07You know what I mean?
43:08Where you have to be able to really hear the scripts and the talent is the
43:13only thing that you can see if everybody is in, you know,
43:16which is why Queens of Sheba was fantastic.
43:18The writing was brilliant.
43:20The talent was brilliant.
43:21And so it meant that even though you didn't have all of these crazy bells
43:25and whistles, what you had was strength.
43:28You had a lot of talent.
43:30And so, yeah, that's what it was created to be.
43:33So there was no budget.
43:35There was no budget.
43:36And I just finished being a student.
43:40So there was no budget.
43:45But what there was was some incredible people who were just so willing to be
43:50on board and to help where they can.
43:53And, like, little, little, little things.
43:57Like, we had these curtains as part of our backdrop.
44:00And we knew we wanted to have some type of a silhouette effect.
44:03And I think we were quoted hundreds when we spoke to set designers and
44:06stuff like that.
44:07So we were like, okay, we're not going to have sets.
44:10That's all right.
44:13We'll cross that off.
44:14We're not going to have that.
44:16But we were like, we must be able to find some type of a curtain,
44:20some type of something that might make it work.
44:22And if it doesn't work, we send it back.
44:24It doesn't work.
44:25But if we can see if that works, then we'll do that.
44:28So scouring Amazon, looking for something that would be appropriate.
44:32And I found a curtain that was long enough.
44:34So I ordered one.
44:35We'd see if that works.
44:36It worked.
44:37Fantastic.
44:38Now we just order multiple of these.
44:40And it's not expensive.
44:42We're not breaking the bank.
44:43And it does what we want it to do.
44:46And so little things like that where you have to get really DIY with it
44:52and we could have chosen not to have it, but we wanted it.
44:56So we got it.
44:59But we had to find an inexpensive way to do that.
45:04So, yeah, I think people definitely probably would be wanting to know
45:08about budget and how you make something work on no budget.
45:13And honestly, I think it's actually just faith in favor.
45:21And I know that sounds to a lot of people like, what else, though?
45:25There has to be.
45:26So a massive part of it is faith in favor.
45:28And I can't say that it was people being willing to help.
45:33That's favor.
45:34And I can't negate that because it's just people coming on board,
45:38friends of mine who aren't stage managers but who would come on board
45:41because they've got organization skills and they can manage our process.
45:44Do you know what I mean?
45:45That's favor.
45:46But then the practical side of it is you may have to dip into your pocket
45:52and, you know, don't break the bank.
45:55I wouldn't advise anybody to break the bank.
45:59You know, don't do that.
46:03Yeah, don't do that.
46:05But like I said, I was a student, okay?
46:10But I also knew that there were some things that we needed to have.
46:16And so it's how do we make this work?
46:18If I've only got you for one day, if I am paying for one day
46:22with a member of the crew or a member of like someone who can help,
46:28how do I make that day as productive as possible?
46:31How do we make the most out of it?
46:35So, yeah, I don't know if that answers the question
46:38because I guess my answer is we didn't have a budget.
46:41No, do you know what?
46:42It really does.
46:43And one thing I want to say to you is that it didn't feel like that at all.
46:50Yeah.
46:51And I think you hit the nail on the head where like, all right,
46:56for me it's two things, right?
46:58It didn't feel like there was no budget because the story was that good.
47:03Like one of the things for me is when I was watching it,
47:06when I was watching it, I was like TV show, TV show,
47:08this needs to be a TV show.
47:10I want to see this as TV.
47:11Like I just kept like because the quality of what like the storyline
47:18and everything, like basically you made a story
47:23that revolved around endometriosis.
47:26I know that's not the key theme but that was like a key part of it.
47:31Yeah.
47:32It was entertaining and engaging for the whole way through.
47:38And that is like, and yeah, I was saying this to you actually.
47:41Thank you.
47:42It's like sometimes you'll see like short films of charities
47:44and all of that stuff and it's touching on the story
47:47but the thing's not engaging.
47:48It's well done and sure and stuff but you're like,
47:51and that's why, you know, children need a break.
47:54Yeah, exactly.
47:57It feels like you can build a campaign.
48:01Yeah, that's it.
48:02You respect it but you're not, your heart's not in it.
48:04But this one, I was, I was in it.
48:08Oh man, like anyway, yeah, anyway.
48:10Thank you.
48:11But no, it was like really amazing.
48:14And I think it's to your point about look,
48:19if we don't have a budget or your story should be strong anyway,
48:23but using what you have, we've got some sort of something.
48:27We can buy a curtain from Amazon.
48:29Yeah, buy a curtain.
48:31But everything was so tight.
48:33And I think that my second point,
48:36after saying that the story was amazing and that's what held it,
48:39that's what helped to hold it up,
48:41was with whatever props or set design you could do,
48:46the creativity of it being all together,
48:49I can say this all now because, you know, the show's over,
48:52but like, you know, the boxes,
48:54Yeah, yeah, yeah.
48:57And then, like you were saying, the silhouette and like the receptionist,
49:01the energy, I was like,
49:03and then the curtains when you're pulling it down because of, yeah.
49:07Yeah.
49:08Yeah, it was great use of what you have and it didn't feel budget to me.
49:12So, yeah.
49:13Yeah, that, that makes me very happy that, that genuinely,
49:18thank you so much because it was, it was, it was tough financially.
49:23It was, it was tough.
49:26And I knew coming into it, I didn't have a budget to, to bring to it.
49:31But what we had was, we had a space, do you know what I mean?
49:36Like we were given the space to use, which was amazing.
49:40So it's like, you've got this space, you've got a story,
49:44tell the story and, you know, like tell, tell the story.
49:48And of course there are going to be holes.
49:50There's always going to be things that you can work on or improve
49:53or do better, but what you've got is a foundation.
49:56You've got something that's got legs and you are now just finding things
50:01that can help to bring that to life.
50:04Danielle is amazing.
50:06When we spoke about, okay, we don't have a budget.
50:10We don't have, we're not going to have a set.
50:13We're not going to have these things.
50:15She was like, okay.
50:17Okay.
50:19She's like, can we have boxes?
50:20Boxes?
50:21Yeah.
50:22Okay.
50:23Yep.
50:24I want boxes.
50:25And it was like her problem solving was just her creative instincts.
50:34Her director hat literally was like, how am I going to make this thing work?
50:39And something that would have been scary for a lot of people,
50:42maybe, I don't know if she felt that inside, but if she did,
50:45she didn't show it.
50:47She literally was like, okay, I need boxes.
50:50And if we can get a curtain, that'd be great.
50:53And I'm like, we're going to get a curtain.
50:54We're going to get boxes.
50:55So we got the boxes again.
50:59Just went online, found boxes.
51:02And yeah, we were like, we're going to make this work.
51:05How do we make that dynamic?
51:07And then that's Danielle thinking, okay, I want these boxes to move.
51:10How do we move them?
51:11How do they move around the space?
51:13Okay.
51:14We can't show a hospital bed,
51:16but how can we show something that is adjacent to you
51:20or that represents that or gives the feel of that?
51:25Yeah.
51:26She's brilliant.
51:27She's really brilliant, honestly.
51:29I love it.
51:30Yeah.
51:31I love it.
51:32So now, not now that.
51:35So what I want to, it's not on cover,
51:42but after all of this favour, putting your best foot forward,
51:47using what you have, what was the result?
51:51What was the result?
51:57There's been some interesting conversations that have been happening,
52:00which is always great.
52:03Interesting meetings that have been happening, which is also great.
52:08I think what I want is a house for this show to exist in.
52:15So a theatre that this show can exist in
52:18and the dramaturgy support to facilitate that
52:22so that the things that I know I'm still working on
52:25or still trying to figure out,
52:27someone who can come on board and be a sparring partner
52:29so that we can get it where I want it to be.
52:32That's what I want.
52:33And I've had some good conversations
52:36and I'm yet to have some great conversations.
52:39The feedback has been amazing.
52:41And a few people have reached out.
52:44And so that's come off the back of this workshop.
52:49And yeah, so literally that's come off the back of it,
52:53finding somewhere for this to exist for a longer run
52:56and for a stronger run.
52:59But also the dramaturgical support,
53:02which I think would be useful.
53:05That's also come forward, which is amazing.
53:10And also one of the things that came from it
53:13was that it was a sold-out run.
53:15It was a sold-out run!
53:19It was. It was sold out.
53:22The first night.
53:23It was sold out. The first night sold out.
53:27I think on the day.
53:28So we knew we'd have like maybe half an audience.
53:31And I was like, that's great.
53:32It's the first night.
53:33It's the first night.
53:34It's pretty good. This is fine.
53:36No, that thing sold out and it just continued.
53:41So I was like, guys, if you haven't got your tickets,
53:43I don't know what to say.
53:46Because it sold out quickly.
53:48And so many people were like,
53:51we didn't get tickets.
53:52Like we're trying to get tickets.
53:54And I'm like, we've even maxed the reserve.
53:58Like there's like a reserve seating area
54:01for like latecomers or not latecomers,
54:03but for people who trickle in at the end.
54:07And no, even that was, we sold out.
54:13And you could feel it in the room.
54:15Like the rooms were full.
54:17So yeah, I had a sold out run
54:20of my first workshop production.
54:22Yay!
54:24And the feedback, it was great.
54:25It was really, really great.
54:27I had some people come from the community
54:31who have endometriosis
54:33or support people with endometriosis.
54:35And honestly, I felt people would find it funny,
54:40but I was like, if that is not met,
54:43if people who have this do not connect with it,
54:46then the whole play is a write-off
54:48because that's really who I'm doing it for.
54:51Like it can be funny,
54:52but if you're not hitting your point,
54:54then what is the point?
54:55But the feedback was amazing.
54:58And it was really affirming to know
55:01from both people who have it
55:04and also partners of people who've had it,
55:07just giving really, really, really touching feedback
55:11of how different elements resonated with them
55:14in completely different ways.
55:15And it wasn't actually just this condition.
55:18People came who had just had bad experiences with doctors
55:23or just had experiences with fibroids
55:26or any other condition.
55:28It still was able to resonate with them as well,
55:31which was really, really, really touching
55:34and also encouraging to know
55:36if this is the first draft,
55:38then I'm on the right track.
55:41I'm on the right track.
55:44No, we love that.
55:45We love that.
55:46And like I say this,
55:48I'm sure in addition to so many people
55:51we're really, really, really proud of you.
55:54So I'm glad it was a success.
55:58Before we go,
56:01is there anything that you want to share
56:05or is there anything on the horizon?
56:07Oh, what does that even mean?
56:10I guess things that you may be working on.
56:13I mean, so donuts and ice cream,
56:15that's in the works, isn't it?
56:18Yes.
56:19As a showrunner,
56:21I'm sure you have so many other shows in the back burner
56:25and ideas that you want to bring to mind and stuff.
56:28So yeah, I guess what's on your mind
56:32whilst donuts and ice cream is playing out?
56:36So I have two other theatre show ideas at the moment.
56:44One of them,
56:45which I've started working on this week.
56:48I was like,
56:49I'm going to have a couple of days to rest
56:50and then I'll be back.
56:52Just a couple of days.
56:53I need to sleep.
56:54But once that's done,
56:56I'll be back.
56:58And so there's one that I want to do this year.
57:02I'm not going to give a date yet.
57:04I would personally love it if it was just after summer.
57:07It feels like a nice feel good type show,
57:11a family show.
57:13Yeah, that's kind of got my heart.
57:16And so I'd love to do it September times,
57:19August times.
57:21But I'm not going to set a date.
57:24But that's what I'd love.
57:26And then there is another one,
57:28but I need to research.
57:30So there is another project that I want to research.
57:33And so I think that I would do that next year.
57:36But I will start the research from now.
57:39I'm starting that from right now.
57:42So yeah, there's two other theatre productions
57:44that I have in mind that I'm working on.
57:47And then Donuts and Ice Cream,
57:49continuing that life,
57:52continuing to work on that.
57:55And yeah, what becomes of it,
57:59everyone's like,
58:00it should be a series.
58:01I'm like, it should be.
58:03So that pilot that I started,
58:05I will continue working on
58:08and then we'll see what happens there.
58:10So yes, very exciting.
58:12I love that.
58:13I love that.
58:14Well, Tanvim,
58:16it was amazing having you on the pod today.
58:19Thank you.