Creator/actor Richard Gadd, along with actor Jessica Gunning, and director Weronika Tofilska discuss the 'Baby Reindeer" scene when Martha first enters Donny's bar. They break down the process of shooting it from Donny's point of view, how the scene mimics a love story and the ways it differs from the real life story. They also share the story of how Jessica was cast in the role of Martha, and give a peek at her audition tape.
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00:00Wow, you must have amazing dinner parties.
00:04Sadly, it's kind of my laugh.
00:10I went to a comedy club back home and it was cabaret seating and I was like, oh no, I hope
00:15I don't find this guy too funny.
00:17Might be a bit scary hearing my old laugh in the background.
00:31Hello, I'm Richard Gard.
00:32My name is Jess Gunning.
00:33I am Veronika Tofuska.
00:34I'm a director of Baby Reindeer.
00:35I play Martha.
00:36I'm the exec producer, actor and writer of Baby Reindeer.
00:39And this is Variety's Making a Scene.
00:47I always wanted the show to open straight away, kind of throw you right into the deep
00:51end.
00:52That's what the live show did.
00:53Baby Reindeer, the live show, opened with, I felt sorry for her, that's the first feeling
00:56I felt.
00:57It's the most important part of the show, almost in a way, because it sets everything
01:00in motion.
01:01I also really wanted to get his self-hatred across in the first voiceover as well.
01:06So the very fact that he says, I felt sorry for her, that's the first feeling I felt.
01:09It says what he feels about Martha and it's a patronizing, arrogant feeling.
01:12Who's Donnie to hand out sort of empathy cards to people when his life is going so wrong?
01:16You have to buy something.
01:17Can't afford something.
01:18Right.
01:19Not even a cup of tea.
01:20We really wanted to capture the experience of Donnie seeing Martha for the first time.
01:26And when we were talking about how we're going to approach the sort of visual language of
01:30it, we were talking a lot about subjectivity and the fact that this is going to be told
01:35from Donnie's perspective.
01:36We really wanted the camera to really capture the point of view of Donnie.
01:41For example, when Martha comes in, we don't really cut to her close up.
01:45The camera pans like the way she kind of looks at her.
01:49And every step when she approaches her, we approach Martha and we reveal more and more
01:54about her.
01:55There was like a very specific kind of rhythm to it a bit.
01:58It was quite important.
01:59So we did that quite a few times.
02:01In my kind of character backstory, she's just left whoever she was previously connected
02:09to and walked into the pub almost to kind of escape that.
02:14But it was kind of important for us all, Richard and Veronica and I, just to get a sense of
02:18she's in a bit of a troubled place when he first sees her, which is why he's so intrigued
02:23and drawn to her and drawn to kind of help in a way.
02:26There was this very important moment when he offers her a tea on the house when she
02:31looks up.
02:32How about I give you a cup of tea on the house?
02:36This is a straight POV shot.
02:38This captures this moment of them looking at each other and seeing each other for the
02:43first time and especially how Donny sees Martha seeing him.
02:47I knew I wanted to make a big moment of that look up and really translate it to the audience
02:51and make that moment.
02:53And Veronica did that very well, the director.
02:55Just make that moment as big and important as possible.
02:57And then I think everything else that follows you sort of understand.
03:01I don't know how many people have paid huge amounts of attention to her before.
03:05So not only is this a light bulb moment because he gives her a free cup of tea, but I think
03:09it's also a light bulb moment because it's like she's seen for the first time in a long
03:13time.
03:14It's almost like a little miracle happened in her world at this point.
03:17We talked a lot about this scene and it was really important to us, this sort of like
03:21step by step Donny getting to know this woman.
03:25If he didn't offer her the cup of tea, he probably would have stayed in that space,
03:29I imagine.
03:30But then when he does, that is broken and everything changes from there, really.
03:34And then the moment when he does this joke.
03:38Wow.
03:39You must have amazing dinner parties.
03:41He's a comedian.
03:44She has the best laugh that he's ever heard.
03:48And that's exactly what he wants.
03:50That's exactly what he needs, really, at that point in his life.
03:53Sadly, it's kind of my laugh.
03:54So now I'm very mindful if I ever go to, I went to a comedy club back home and it was
03:59cabaret seating and I was like, oh, no, I hope I don't find this guy too funny.
04:03It might be a bit scary hearing my old laugh in the background.
04:06He had this incredible laugh, this giddy, slightly disconcerting laugh.
04:10And that laughter basically starts this sequence, which is probably the most joyful sequence
04:16in the whole show.
04:17It gets much darker from there on.
04:20It's the butterfly effect, isn't it?
04:21The small thing that leads to the disaster.
04:23We very much kind of had this kind of camera movement, which was very sort of like the
04:27conveyor belt was one of these ideas.
04:29So we kind of like moving through his life and this and this and this.
04:34And he's sort of almost like this constant in it.
04:37And we can see that he's kind of not, he's not very happy.
04:40And then Martha is the person that lights up his life.
04:46And she gives him the attention that he really, really needs in that moment.
04:49She would sit there talking about me.
04:52Really manly hands, haven't you?
04:55And that's when we kind of had this moment of her coming into the pub and this almost
04:59operatic moment of them kind of starting this relationship together.
05:05So when someone sees you through the mire of it all, sees you as the person you came
05:09here to be, you notice them.
05:13You notice them noticing you.
05:15I think he feels the same way about her.
05:17You know, there's all those little bits about somebody hurt you, didn't they?
05:20And she sees him in a way that others don't.
05:23You know, his jawline, his manly hands and that.
05:26I think he wants to be seen in that way.
05:28And I think vice versa for her, somebody to kind of have a banter with and, you know,
05:33look through her contacts and not kind of judge her and make a joke of you or some great
05:36dinner parties.
05:37I don't think she has that very often.
05:38And I think that is what is a game changer in terms of Donny for her.
05:43Every day now Martha would come in, each time with new makeup, new hairstyles, like a kid
05:48playing dress up.
05:49I thought it was very important to get the sort of passage of time up top with the opening
05:53montages.
05:54I also thought it was very important to throw the audience into a sense of propulsion.
05:58I would obsess about these montages and I always wanted the voiceover, but no gaps.
06:02I think the temptation sometimes in the edit is to give the audience pause for thought.
06:07But what I really wanted is every time you see a montage sequence, the voiceover is joined
06:11up.
06:12It's joined up.
06:13So if you need a gap in the voiceover, it is extremely felt.
06:14It was an opportunity to not only show the passage of time and just how much Martha was
06:18come in and all these strands of her personality, her over exaggerations, her weird quirks.
06:23I've got to go, but then she never goes.
06:24Her diet coke, she never drank.
06:26In terms of camera, we really want it to be dynamic.
06:29So this is the first time we introduced push-ins on Steadicam and we do whip pans, which help
06:36connecting different shots with a passage of time.
06:39And they're also quite fun and kind of give the show a lot of energy and, you know, the
06:44sort of musical quality that we were really after in that sequence.
06:48That was a busy day.
06:49We just have the tent right next to the studio and then an amazing hair and makeup team and
06:55costume team.
06:56So I could run out and obviously do, because we were doing all the whip pans of when I
06:59come into the, to the pub.
07:01And then obviously with my bag, we had like loads of different bags to try for that.
07:04So that was an amazing day to film.
07:06I really love that montage because you get a sense of, you know, how often she was there
07:10around, you know, chatting away.
07:11I mean, me and Jess talked a little bit before the shoot and I think what we connected over
07:18was this idea that Martha, in her mind, she meets this man and he flirts with her and
07:26that she believes that they're in a relationship.
07:30How would a person in a relationship behave if their boyfriend was behaving the way Donnie
07:35does?
07:36Jess is so amazing.
07:37And she could just really put all this into Martha's character.
07:41And I think completely believe her point of view.
07:44And even though we are telling our story from Donnie's point of view, you have this
07:48amazing empathy towards this woman.
07:50I didn't share any real life voicemails or emails with Jessica and she was also very
07:54good at still being like, I just need the script and that's fine.
07:57I wanted Martha to take on a life of his own, to exist outside the real life people.
08:02And I didn't want it to be like an actor trying to inhabit a person, you know, I wanted it
08:07to be its own, its own character.
08:09Donnie as a character, Martha as a character was just so clear to me.
08:12I didn't want to muddy it by confusing it with any information about the real person.
08:17Because obviously this is told through Donnie's point of view and it's based on a true story
08:22that happened to Richard, but she's a character.
08:24We were sort of trying to, throughout the whole show, put people in the experience of
08:28Donnie.
08:29I think that was like our first rule.
08:31We want to create an environment that reflects how he feels.
08:35So we were really inside his head all the way through.
08:38Me and Kristoff Turner, the DP, we kind of were quite obsessive about this and often
08:44we had shots set up basically between the characters and we had them looking almost
08:50directly into the lens.
08:52There was a lot of math box acting, as I called it, which was like, you put an X on the camera
08:56like this and you'd be acting to that.
08:57And Jess would be like a voice in the distance, but I'd be acting with an X.
09:00So a lot of the scenes, like loads of them, we weren't like even looking at each other.
09:04We were looking at these little X's on the, on the camera, which is, which is kind of
09:07crazy.
09:08And sometimes I'd do it and I'd be like, Oh God, I just wish Jess's face was there so
09:11I can see her expressions.
09:13And sometimes I'm like, God, I really hope it doesn't show that I'm acting to a red X
09:17on a camera box.
09:18I'll be the one sitting next to the gorgeous brunette.
09:21Who's that then?
09:25You mean me?
09:27I think by showing her vulnerabilities, you make the audience care about Martha.
09:31When I was getting stalked, I remember just feeling a lot of empathy for them.
09:34And like, why isn't there help for this person?
09:36I don't understand how they're not being helped.
09:39Are they just kind of allowed to just be out there in the world, sort of doing the things
09:42that they're doing and, and also just in quite a clear state of emotional pain a lot of the
09:46time.
09:47And it was just nothing like I'd seen it on television where it was like insidiously evil.
09:52And I felt I really was up against someone who couldn't help doing what they were doing.
09:58And there's a great sadness in that I wanted to capture.
10:01Sure, I'll come picnic with you.
10:05Picnic fun times are my favorite idea.
10:08Throughout the whole show, we very much explore the conflicting feelings that Donny has towards
10:15Martha.
10:16We really wanted to create almost a sense of a very unlikely sort of love story between
10:22those two people.
10:23And obviously it's not, it's, it's not really a love story.
10:26It's a sort of platonic love story, but it was really important to us that, you know,
10:30in terms of both music and how we film it, there is this sort of idea there of a sort
10:36of a beginning of a relationship.
10:43Richard already had some ideas initially with what kind of music he wanted.
10:47And then we really stayed away from anything too modern and contemporary because there's
10:51something very timeless about this story.
10:54I also think Martha sees herself as a sort of romantic heroine in some ways.
11:00And so, you know, Patsy Cline or Brenda Lee or Dusty Springfield are kind of of that world.
11:07I'm 42.
11:08You're 42?
11:09Wow.
11:10You'd better give Peter Pan his moisturizer back.
11:12Fuck you, mate.
11:13It was the most important casting, I think.
11:15The show really hinged on an actor being able to deliver the nuances of Martha.
11:20If somebody plays nothing but evil, nothing but weird, nothing but twisted, the show
11:24fails to take on the nuance that I think it needs to be an interesting piece of work.
11:28I've never read a character quite like her before.
11:30And I think that the challenge was, I suppose, trying to capture what Richard wrote on the
11:35page and translate that to screen, because I think she's one of the most fascinating
11:40kind of multilayered, contradictory characters I've ever read.
11:45And so I think the challenge is trying to get that balance right.
11:49Who was it?
11:50Sorry, can you let go of my hand now, please?
11:52I want names.
11:53The casting process was long and it was challenging, and I always kind of wanted Jess.
11:58Every time I'd seen her in something, she stole the scene in anything she did.
12:02Yeah, I auditioned over the space of about four months, really.
12:05I think that they wanted to kind of just really make sure that the chemistry between us was
12:09spot on, because I think you could go several ways with the part of Martha.
12:13I really fought for it because I just saw her so clearly, and I just kept thinking,
12:17oh man, if somebody were to do this and play her as a villain or play her as crazy, you'd
12:23miss the point a bit because she so isn't that.
12:26And so I went in again and again to try and persuade them.
12:29There was quite a funny story that I think she's told publicly, and she won't mind
12:31me saying, because there was a bit of a question about should Martha be older, and she did
12:35a self-tape where she aged herself up and she went out and bought a wig from a choke
12:40shop.
12:41And it was the maddest wig I'd ever seen.
12:43But again, just like this commitment, this passion for it.
12:47I'd gone in a few times and obviously was just absolutely dying to do it.
12:51And I'd heard on the grapevine that they didn't think I was old enough.
12:56And so I spoke to a friend of mine who's actually an amazing makeup designer called Nadia Stacey.
13:01And I was talking to her and I was like, if you were designing the show, would you think
13:04I was too young?
13:06And she was like, no, I just would either wig you up or grow your hair a bit and do
13:10what they did in the show to make me look 42, 43.
13:13So she sent me to a wig place in London, and they wigged me up and aged me up.
13:18And then I went and put myself on tape and sent it over to be like, look, see, please.
13:24You know, and luckily it worked.
13:26They probably just were like, oh, guys, she's this woman, back off.
13:29We saw amazing actresses for it, like the best actresses in Britain for the role.
13:34And there was even actresses in America really interested.
13:36I won't say who any of them are.
13:37And luckily they took a chance on me, I wore them down.
13:41I wanted her to laugh.
13:42I wanted her to share in the joke, but she just didn't.
13:45I think the point of it is that life is messy and connections can be made that are complicated.
13:52And I think the way that Richard has written this story is so honest about his errors when
13:57they first met, the things he said that potentially he might not do now or regrets.
14:02And I think that usually when you read the headline of, you know, a female stalker, you
14:07might assume there's a kind of victim villain role there.
14:11But I think it's so much more muddy and messy and more complicated than that.
14:15And I think he's told it so honestly.
14:18I think the point is that there isn't a clear answer, really.
14:21The whole experience was very surreal, like taking this period in my life and coming to
14:26screen and having weird deja vu.
14:28I got a little weird deja vu with Jess, like when she was acting.
14:31I did.
14:32I did.
14:33Sometimes I'd be like, I have to be on, I'm on a film set.
14:36What?
14:37Like, I really felt like the film set disappeared, the camera disappeared, and I was kind of
14:42back there.
14:43We did have these weird sort of life imitating our art imitating life moments on set, for
14:48sure.
14:49Yeah, it was surreal.
14:50It was very surreal.
14:51The whole thing.
14:52Sometimes you do this job to entertain and make people feel like they can escape.
14:56But then very occasionally a job like this comes along that is kind of not to be too
15:00cheesy, but changing people's lives.
15:02And so to be part of that is just incredible.