• 7 months ago
On Thursday, the Senate Energy & Natural Resources Committee held a hearing to "Examine the President’s Budget Request for the U.S. Forest Service for Fiscal Year 2025.”

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Transcript
00:00:00 This morning we're here to discuss the president's fiscal year 2025 budget request for the Forest Service.
00:00:06 I'd like to begin by thanking Chief Randy Moore and the Forest Service Budget Director Mark Lichtenstein
00:00:11 for being with us this morning. Thank you both. I look forward to hearing about the justification
00:00:16 for the 6.5 percent increase requested over fiscal year 2024 enacted appropriations. Although
00:00:22 May would normally be just the start of the fire season, we've already had record-breaking
00:00:27 wildfires as it's becoming all too common. In February, while it was still snowing,
00:00:32 over 1 million acres in Texas burned, killing two people and destroying 130 homes.
00:00:37 All signs point to a very active fire year in the U.S. and I know my colleagues from western states
00:00:44 are on pins and needles watching the next ignition that could devastate their communities.
00:00:48 Our committee has considered several bills that would support an improved wildfire response
00:00:52 network, from increasing the use of technology for wildfire detection to integrating the local
00:00:57 communities, loggers, and volunteer firefighters into wildfire suppression efforts on federal land.
00:01:03 In the meantime, Congress has tried to address this problem at the source by investing heavily
00:01:09 in hazardous fuels reduction. Between the bipartisan infrastructure law and the
00:01:14 Inflation Reduction Act, the Forest Service has been given
00:01:21 about $12 billion on top of your annual appropriations.
00:01:26 Now that we're a few years into those laws, today's a good opportunity for us to take a stock
00:01:32 of how the Forest Service is implementing those historic investments, as well as the
00:01:36 proposed budget for the fiscal year 2025. As I mentioned, the bipartisan infrastructure law
00:01:41 and the IRA will add a significant extra boost to the Forest Service budget, around 30 percent
00:01:47 extra for forest management each year. To be honest, Chief Moore, I am frustrated at how
00:01:52 little these extra investments have moved the needle on the agency's performance metrics.
00:01:57 I do appreciate that last year was a banner year for the Forest Service in terms
00:02:02 of acres treated, more than 4.3 million acres. That's a million acres more than the previous
00:02:08 year, and it sets an agency record. Some of your performance metrics were less encouraging.
00:02:14 For example, your timber target for last year was 3.4 billion board feet. You missed that by
00:02:20 about 260 million board feet. You had a target of 16 improved watersheds. You only managed six.
00:02:26 You've told us before that it takes time to develop these projects and we should be patient.
00:02:31 Instead of continuing to ramp up in treatments, however, the agency's target is actually going
00:02:36 down over the next two years. So one of the issues I hope we'll explore today is why the
00:02:41 historic funding provided by those two bills, the bipartisan infrastructure loan and the IRA,
00:02:46 aren't translating better into on-the-ground action.
00:02:48 The backdrop to our discussion beyond the impending fire season is a rash of sawmill
00:02:54 closures this year, including six in my own home state of West Virginia. I knew that wood products
00:02:59 markets have been especially volatile since the pandemic. We've heard a number of reports,
00:03:04 however, that long-standing sawmills are simply running out of nearby material and need to haul
00:03:09 logs in from further and further away, which significantly cuts into their already thin
00:03:14 margins. More consistent, reliable offerings from local federal forests would undoubtedly help these
00:03:19 struggling operators. What's also concerning to me about these mill closures is that the Forest
00:03:25 Service's wildfire crisis strategy is fundamentally dependent on a robust network of mills that can
00:03:31 process the material from our nation's forests. As we recently heard at our hearing with the
00:03:36 Wildfire Commission, revenue-generating timber harvests are critical to pay for more complex
00:03:41 treatments, prescribed fire and reforestation. If done right, timber harvests can provide a return
00:03:47 to the federal taxpayer, increase the health of our forests, and support our critical industry
00:03:51 partners. The Forest Service has used some innovative models in the past. For example,
00:03:56 last year the agency piloted a timber transport project to salvage burned timber in California
00:04:02 and ship it to struggling sawmills in Wyoming. That makes all the sense in the world. We shouldn't
00:04:09 just be letting salvageable timber rot. I've said this so many times in these hearings.
00:04:13 In the long term, Congress can also help develop markets for the small diameter
00:04:18 timber that often comes from wildfire mitigation projects as we're thinning and cleaning. In fact,
00:04:23 several of the provisions in a bill I introduced with Ranking Member Barrasso,
00:04:27 the America's Revegetation and Carbon Sequestration Act, would do just that. However,
00:04:32 we simply cannot afford to lose all of our existing mill infrastructure while that market grows,
00:04:38 and I hope that we will hear how the Forest Service can further expand on efforts like the
00:04:42 timber transport project. Lastly, I know that the fire and forestry often get the lion's share of
00:04:48 attention, but I also want to highlight the tremendous role that our national forest plays
00:04:53 when it comes to our outdoor recreation economy. Last year, the 159 million visitors to Forest
00:04:59 Service lands generated billions in economic activity and supported nearly 180,000 jobs.
00:05:05 Unfortunately, the Forest Service has a deferred maintenance backlog of more than
00:05:11 $7 billion, including $5 billion in maintenance just for the roads alone.
00:05:15 This should concern all of us. The roads don't just provide access to our recreation lands,
00:05:21 but are vital arteries for rural communities. Perhaps even more concerning, a road in poor
00:05:26 conditions threatens our ability to deploy firefighters where they are needed and stop
00:05:30 a wildfire before it grows to catastrophic size. As we approach the expiration of the mandatory
00:05:36 funding for facilities maintenance that we provide in the Great American Outdoors Act,
00:05:40 it's worth asking what changes could be made to better address the next set of hurdles facing
00:05:48 the Forest Service. Chief Moore, I want to thank you again for being here today. I think I speak
00:05:53 for all of us when I say that we don't just want you to succeed, we need you to succeed.
00:05:59 I look forward to hearing your perspective on these issues and your plans for the year ahead.
00:06:04 And with that, I'll turn to my ranking member, my friend Senator Brasso, for his opening statement.
00:06:07 Well, thanks so much, Mr. Chairman. Thanks for holding the meeting, Chief Moore. Thanks so much
00:06:11 for coming. I share your concerns. Historic investments, failure to meet the targets. I
00:06:15 mean, that's what you've pointed out. That's what people on both sides of this aisle have
00:06:18 continued to point out year after year. Like Wyoming's forests, including our eight national
00:06:24 forests, help sustain our way of life. They support our local communities. Is it the case all
00:06:29 across the West, our forests face many challenges, including wildfire, drought, insect and disease
00:06:34 outbreaks. We face additional pressures, as you mentioned, Mr. Chairman, from the sawmill closures.
00:06:40 You know, in 1976, Wyoming sawmills could process over 300 million board feet each year.
00:06:46 Forests were healthy, forests were productive. According to the Forest Service's latest
00:06:51 statistics, Wyoming sawmills can now process just over 100 million board feet. So that goes from
00:06:58 300 million down to 100 million. That's a two-thirds drop in our capacity. And now the health of our
00:07:04 national forests in Wyoming is poor. The wildfire risk is high. And if we don't make things better
00:07:10 in a way to manage our national forests, the risks are going to keep growing. Things are going to get
00:07:14 worse. So I look forward to hearing how the Forest Service intends to hit the targets to address
00:07:19 these critical challenges. And I'm pleased with some of the priorities in the budget. Funding
00:07:24 to protect our communities from catastrophic fire. Also pay raise for our wildland firefighters.
00:07:30 I do have concerns also about the budget, though, because for years the Forest Service has asked
00:07:34 Congress for more and more money. And we've heard it from both sides of the aisle, that money has
00:07:38 been granted. Congress has responded by giving the agency billions of dollars in additional
00:07:44 taxpayer funds. Since 2021, Congress has given the agency more than $40 billion, with a "B,"
00:07:52 $40 billion. Yet the Forest Service has not treated more acres. It's not sold more timber.
00:07:58 It's not expedited the environmental review process for forest management projects.
00:08:03 Mr. Chairman, the question continues, where have all these taxpayer dollars gone?
00:08:07 Now, I acknowledge the Forest Service faces enormous challenges as it combats wildfires.
00:08:13 Yet despite having more money than ever, the agency has not done the work on the ground to
00:08:19 address the crisis. In fact, the agency expects to treat fewer acres than it did last year this year.
00:08:26 And for the timber harvest levels to remain flat in fiscal year 2025, this is completely unacceptable.
00:08:33 In Wyoming, sustainable timber harvests support our local communities. They reduce wildfire risk.
00:08:40 They improve forest health. Year after year, we find ourselves in the same situation.
00:08:45 Inconsistent log supplies from the national forest undermine our local sawmills. Without a dependable
00:08:52 and an affordable supply of timber from our public lands, these family-owned businesses
00:08:59 cannot survive, and we know it all too well in Wyoming.
00:09:02 Just last month, Niman Enterprises, a family business based in Hewlett,
00:09:07 Wyoming, had to announce layoffs. They hated doing it. This was a direct result of the Forest
00:09:11 Service's decision to reduce timber harvest levels in the Black Hills National Forest.
00:09:18 The Forest Service has upended the lives of 50 hard-working employees and their families,
00:09:23 jeopardized jobs at nearby wood product facilities, and it has put at risk the health of the Black
00:09:29 Hills National Forest. The decision to reduce the timber sale program on the Black Hills will
00:09:35 reverse years of progress. Without active management, that forest is going to return to
00:09:41 the same condition that resulted in the wildfires and the beetle kill. This is exactly what we are
00:09:46 trying to avoid. The Forest Service seems indifferent to the consequences of their own
00:09:52 inaction. There is broad agreement on this committee that the Forest Service is not
00:09:57 meeting the challenges it confronts. The Forest Service no longer safeguards and promotes forest
00:10:02 health. It is now just managing the deterioration of our national forests. The Forest Service
00:10:09 must change course, must start managing our forests in a serious and credible way.
00:10:14 We know what works. We know what we need to do, and the forest product sector is willing to help
00:10:19 get the work done. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, Senator. We'll start with our
00:10:23 questions, our opening statement now. Senator. Chief Moore. Chair Manchin, Rankin member Barrasso,
00:10:30 and members of the committee, thank you for inviting me to testify today, and we're grateful
00:10:35 for your continued support. The President's budget names three primary goals for us,
00:10:40 to modernize wildland fire management, to sustain investments critical to our mission,
00:10:46 and to ensure equitable access and benefits to America. Today, I'll share our progress as we
00:10:53 put money to work to confront serious challenges. I'll share how our work will continue to be a
00:10:58 sound investment. We directly steward 193 million acres of National Forest System lands, and we
00:11:05 reach across boundaries to assist states, tribes, and communities, as well as private landowners,
00:11:10 to keep millions of forested acres healthy and productive. Every American benefits from these
00:11:16 forests directly or indirectly. Together, these lands provide basic needs for life,
00:11:22 clean air, and water, and while they contribute to the energy production and they support the
00:11:28 local economies. National forests alone contribute more than 410,000 jobs and 44.3 billion dollars to
00:11:36 the gross domestic product. To sustain productivity and health, forests must be able to withstand
00:11:43 threats posed by wildfires, climate change, drought, insects, and disease. We invested
00:11:50 resources to act and to ensure that we do just that. Foremost, we prioritize work to reduce
00:11:56 wildfire risk, safeguard communities, and create resilient forests. In 2022, we launched a 10-year
00:12:04 wildfire crisis strategy, and we have moved to implement it. Annual appropriations, coupled with
00:12:11 the historic bipartisan infrastructure law and Inflation Reduction Act, provided us an extraordinary
00:12:16 opportunity to take bold and strategic actions. We did just that. We progressed to deliver on a
00:12:23 promise to increase the pace and scale of our treatments. We're not just treating any acre,
00:12:28 we're treating the right acres in the right places and at the right scale. We focused initial efforts
00:12:34 on 21 priority landscapes within western fire sheds that are at the highest risk. They account
00:12:39 for roughly 80 percent of wildfire risk. These investments are paying dividends. Experts report
00:12:46 that roughly 700 billion dollars worth of housing and infrastructure are at risk within these
00:12:51 priority landscapes, and this includes 6.5 billion dollars of municipal watersheds, which supply
00:12:58 drinking water to 12 million people. In the last two years, we reduced the average wildfire risk
00:13:04 to these assets by 8 percent. We reduced the risk for infrastructure by 8 percent for housing,
00:13:11 and then we also reduced the risk to watersheds by 12 percent. So what does that mean? It means
00:13:18 that more than 175 million dollars worth of homes were at risk. In Stanislaus National Forest,
00:13:24 17 communities are at lower risk, including the towns of Cold Springs and Strawberry.
00:13:30 A million socially vulnerable people are at less risk. Nearly half of the nation's forest lands
00:13:37 and priority landscapes are now considered unlikely to burn at high intensity. We must
00:13:42 remain on course and build on these gains. We must also invest in our firefighters. We recognize
00:13:49 the urgency of investing in a permanent and comprehensive pay increase to provide a more
00:13:53 livable wage, enhanced recruitment, and stabilized retention. We must also improve housing conditions
00:14:00 and provide better care for firefighters' physical and mental health. We look forward to seeing an
00:14:05 end to a report of firefighters living in cars with few benefits and limited mental health care.
00:14:12 In addition to work to address the wildfire crisis and firefighters, we continue to take actions that
00:14:17 support access and benefits from forests. Visitor use, hunting and fishing, energy and minerals
00:14:24 development, forest products, and livestock graves generate 69 percent of the contributions to the
00:14:30 economy. Thanks to the Great American Outdoor Act funds, we relieve some of the pressure from the
00:14:36 8.6 billion dollar maintenance backlog. The budget requests 58 million to maintain critical
00:14:42 recreation services with a focus on offering welcoming and equitable opportunities. We're
00:14:48 also making a difference in our urban environments. The Forest Service and partners are planning
00:14:54 and maintaining trees in cities and suburbs where about 84 percent of Americans live.
00:14:59 Trees combat extreme heat and climate change and it also improves access to nature.
00:15:06 The 2025 budget returns basic funding to most programs. This includes forest products which
00:15:13 are vital to sustaining rural communities. This includes sustainable timber supply. We know it's
00:15:18 a critical component and is part of a complex market-driven system. While we don't control
00:15:24 markets, we can support industry through forest products and wood innovations which help mills
00:15:29 adapt and modernize. While the current industry adapts, the agency has taken strides to support
00:15:35 the existing industry by one invested nearly 80 million dollars over the last three years
00:15:41 by directly supporting sawmills and other forest products manufacturing facilities,
00:15:46 expanding wood baskets to mills through the build and timber transport program, authorizing
00:15:52 extensions to timber sale contracts to provide relief from the decline of demand for the paper
00:15:58 product. So in closing, we're fully committed to meeting the challenges before us with resources
00:16:04 that Congress has provided and the people of America deserve nothing less than to see their
00:16:09 money put to work for the benefit of all. Thank you and I welcome your questions. We'll start our
00:16:14 questions now. Thank you, thank you Mr. Moore. Chief, your budget indicates you've increased
00:16:19 the size of your workforce by more than 3,000 employees since 2021. 3,000. I understand about
00:16:24 a month ago you instituted a 30-day hiring pause for non-fire staff in order to conduct a strategic
00:16:31 assessment of your staffing and get a handle on your budget. So we'd like to know what you came
00:16:35 up with. Yeah, Mr. Chairman, actually we increased our workforce by 4,000 people and that was our
00:16:42 plan from the beginning. We lost about 40 percent of our non-fire workforce over the last 20 years.
00:16:48 How many were hired in areas that were vacant for years and you just you filled those positions or
00:16:52 an area did you beef up where it was needed? Well, so we did a number of things. We had to bring in
00:16:58 a new skill set to complement the skill sets that we currently have and we looked at the trends of
00:17:04 development in this country and and it's things around working with partners, working with
00:17:09 communities and so we also needed to add to our skill set people that know how to work with
00:17:14 communities, know how to bring people to the table to facilitate and convene meetings because what we
00:17:19 ultimately want to do is share the decision space with local communities and so we had to invest in
00:17:25 skill sets. How much of this was going to your bonuses for your present employers, employees,
00:17:32 I'm saying the people you have on staff, did much of that percentage of the money you received go
00:17:36 for that or for actually hiring new people? No, we routinely provide bonuses based on performance at
00:17:43 the end of the year so it was nothing extra with this money. If you could give us a breakdown on
00:17:49 what kind of employees were hired and how they're contributing to the agency's mission,
00:17:53 that'd be very helpful for this committee. Be glad to do that. Second thing is since 2020,
00:17:57 the amount of national forest system lands in need of manual reforestation has increased by more than
00:18:05 260 percent, you know, due to catastrophic wildfires, yet the Forest Service has said that only six
00:18:11 percent of post-wildfire planning needs are met annually. If it's growing at that rate and you're
00:18:16 not even touching it. Well first, Mr. Chairman, I want to say thanks to Congress for the Replant
00:18:22 Act. Sure. Because it has given us the ability to lift the cap that we had on reforestation. Is my
00:18:28 figures wrong here? Have you done more than six percent? No, I wouldn't argue with your figures.
00:18:34 This is a pretty poor performance early on that as far as getting up to speed.
00:18:41 May I respond? Let me just say this. Does it need to clear hazardous trees from burnt acres
00:18:49 increase the cost for reforestation projects? So you have a burnt area. The way I understand it
00:18:55 just kind of sits there until it rots away and nothing gets reforested in those areas. Can you
00:18:59 do both simultaneously? No. So for context, you know, prior to the Replant Act, we had a cap of
00:19:08 about 30 million dollars for reforestation. The problem that we've been having over the last,
00:19:13 let's say, 15 to 20 years is that every year the number of acres burned has been increasing.
00:19:19 And so on average you add in about 500,000 acres per year and we've only been able to treat about
00:19:26 anywhere between 100,000 to 200,000 acres based on the funding level. Let me ask you one thing
00:19:30 that bothers me more than anything is basically salvaging the burnt timber that we have that still
00:19:34 has value to it. Why are we not able to do that? Well it's an excellent question and it's a really
00:19:42 complex answer. At least multiple reasons that contribute to this. Okay. One is that, you know,
00:19:48 when we try and have large timber sale projects to recoup the salvage, many times we get litigated
00:19:57 on that. And even where we are litigated many times... Who litigates it? Why would they litigate?
00:20:02 Because you can reforest, you can basically cut and salvage and reforce at the same time.
00:20:08 Mr. Chairman, I know you know with our democratic process and the fact that we're a public agency,
00:20:13 300 million people can... Someone's upset, right? Yeah. And so our challenge is as we go through
00:20:20 the litigation to defend why we're wanting to do what we want to do, winning is not the answer.
00:20:27 Delaying the salvage sales long enough so that they begin to lose value so that they're not
00:20:33 worth purchasing after a period of time. And depending on where you are, blue stain sets in,
00:20:38 which reduces the value of the wood. The challenge we have is that how do we remove a lot of that
00:20:45 timber in a really quick way? And so our approach has been to take small pieces of that and to do
00:20:52 what we can to remove the timber while it has value. Let me ask one more question. 25 mills,
00:20:58 around 25 mills have shut down this year near our federal forest, including several in my own
00:21:03 home state of West Virginia. I know the reasons for the shutdowns vary, but I'm concerned about
00:21:07 the impact they're going to have on rural communities, as well as the impact on carrying
00:21:11 out the forest service management goals. So what authorities do you have to ensure a consistent
00:21:16 supply of federal timber and give these sawmills some ability to weather the current market
00:21:21 volatility? So we've been working with a lot of the sawmills. In fact, we've been looking at wood
00:21:27 innovations. And over the last three years, we've invested $79 million specifically to sawmills and
00:21:33 to the industry to help them transition while this is going on in our country. And so we...
00:21:39 The only way they're going to transition is basically have access to the product.
00:21:43 Well, they're market-driven conditions that they are responding to, which also has an impact on
00:21:48 whether they are interested in a lot of the timber sales of national forest. When you look at the
00:21:54 economy in and of itself, it's moving away from paper products. So that has a negative impact on
00:21:58 some of the mills that produce that type of material. When you look at small dam to low
00:22:04 value type material, most of our facilities use the large commercial saw logs. And so a part of
00:22:10 what we want to do is to help and work with industry to transition to have a more diversified
00:22:16 portfolio, if you will, and look at some of the products, biofuel, biochar, nanocellulose material,
00:22:24 cross-laminated timber. These are the types of technology that's emerging,
00:22:28 but our infrastructure in general is not set up to use that type of material in abundance. And so
00:22:35 we are trying to work with industry to transition to that. And I think that you're going to see some
00:22:40 really interesting things come from industry sometime later this summer. I do think that
00:22:45 they're making the adjustment. Senator Brasso. Well, thanks, Mr. Chairman. Chief Martin, 63
00:22:49 million acres of our national forest, high or very high risk of wildfire right now.
00:22:54 Past year, agency treated fewer than 4 million of those 63 million acres. Your agency plans
00:23:03 this coming year to treat even less than that. It has 63 million, last time 4 million,
00:23:09 now less than that this year with a budget, more and more money going, getting less and less.
00:23:15 At this declining rate, it's going to take your agency about two decades just to treat all the
00:23:19 high risk areas within our national forest today, but trees are going to continue to grow. Is this
00:23:24 really as credible strategy with all the money that's been moved to the forest service, a credible
00:23:30 strategy to address this wildfire crisis that Congress is clearly behind the efforts financially
00:23:36 to help commit to get done? Yeah, you know, Senator Brasso, I think that we're at a crossroads in
00:23:42 this country. And I think a part of it is that for the last 100 years, we measured our performance
00:23:49 on acres treated. And I think what the wildfire crisis strategy has given us an opportunity to do
00:23:55 is take a look and see, is that the right metric for performance? When you look at how this country
00:24:00 has changed over the last 100 years since the Forest Service existence, the number one land
00:24:05 use in this country is wildland urban interface development. And so that has had an impact on the
00:24:11 national forest because you have a lot of communities that are sitting adjacent to and
00:24:15 right next to national forest. And so we have to ask ourselves, and I would love to dig deeper into
00:24:21 this with you and this committee, what is the appropriate performance level? Is it acres treated
00:24:27 or is it the right acres treated? And if our job is to protect communities from wildfires, we have
00:24:33 to look at outcome based reporting rather than output based reporting, or at least the combination
00:24:38 of the two. And so the outcome would be, did we protect the community from the risk of wildfire?
00:24:44 Well, we haven't been doing a very good job of protecting against wildfire. I mean, to me,
00:24:48 this seems just a complete lack of urgency by your department in dealing with all of this.
00:24:54 If you don't like the results, then you change the metrics. That's ridiculous. But that's
00:25:02 ridiculous. We don't like the results. We have more and more wildfires. We had a hearing in
00:25:05 Washington State about what was happening a number of years ago. It doesn't seem to be improving.
00:25:09 It doesn't seem to get better at all in spite of a massive additional expenditure of taxpayer money.
00:25:15 To say we're going to change the way the metrics is absolutely ridiculous.
00:25:19 So Niman Enterprises announced layoffs in the shift reduction at its
00:25:24 Spearfish Forest Products facility. I understand that the owner, Jim Niman,
00:25:30 did everything possible to avoid the layoffs. These layoffs are a direct result of reductions
00:25:35 to the timber sale program for the Black Hills National Forest. What's the agency doing to help
00:25:40 retain the remaining forest products infrastructure in the Black Hills?
00:25:43 As I indicated earlier, we've invested about $79 million specifically to Sawmills, and we've worked
00:25:50 directly with Mr. Niman and his facility. As a matter of fact, when we look at the Timber
00:25:55 Transport Authority, it originated in order to help him. So we moved timber from Northern
00:26:03 California over to Wyoming to his facility. There are market-driven conditions that are not coming
00:26:08 into play during these discussions. And it's multiple reasons why the industry is going
00:26:15 through a transition now, and it's not just forest service supply. It's market-driven conditions.
00:26:20 It's the cost of labor that's continuing to increase. It's the lack of labor shortages.
00:26:26 It's a number of things that's contributing to these facilities.
00:26:28 We're not having a labor shortage. We're having a job shortage as a result of these
00:26:32 decisions that have been made. So I find the answer unacceptable.
00:26:35 Another question. Commissioners from Carbon County and Johnson County, Wyoming,
00:26:39 wrote to you specifically. I have a copy of the letter, opposing the Forest Service's plan
00:26:43 for old growth areas on our national forest. Mr. Chairman, I ask unanimous consent to put this in
00:26:48 the record. Both counties asked to be made a cooperating agency. These requests were made
00:26:54 in January and February. When can they expect to receive a response?
00:26:58 Well, I'm not aware of specifically what you're talking about, but I will look into that,
00:27:04 Senator, and get back with you on that. Okay. So will you agree to make these
00:27:08 counties a cooperating agency? I can't say that without looking at
00:27:11 what they're requesting, because when you look at what do they mean when they say
00:27:16 a cooperating agency? And so we would want to dig into that to see specifically what they mean by
00:27:23 that. There's a little C and a big C. Because the concern clearly is that the
00:27:26 Forest Service is drafting the old growth plan without state input, without local input,
00:27:32 and that's why I have a bill that would stop the disastrous proposal.
00:27:35 My final question, Mr. Chairman, is, Chief Moore, you talk a lot about the abundance of low and no
00:27:40 value material in our national forest. The agency's own data also shows an abundance
00:27:46 of large diameter, high value material in our national forests. Since 2021, Congress has given
00:27:52 the Forest Service a massive infusion of taxpayer dollars. How is it that timber harvests in our
00:27:57 national forests are today below what they were six years ago in 2018?
00:28:04 You know, actually, Senator, since 2002, we've seen a gradual increase in the amount of timber
00:28:10 that's removed, as well as the number of acres is treated. So I would say, and I have a chart here
00:28:15 that will show you the increase from 2002 all the way into 2023. And so we are seeing a slight
00:28:22 increase over that period of time, not a decrease. I'm talking about the last six years.
00:28:27 Well, I can... 2018 down to where they are now. I can go all the way back to the '80s, where...
00:28:33 Back to America wasn't discovered. We weren't harvesting anything. And now we got all the way
00:28:37 up, but now we're dropping down in spite of the massive amount of... Mr. Chairman, my time is up.
00:28:43 You done? I'm done. I got to be... Senator Cantwell.
00:28:47 Chief Moore, I think the frustration you're hearing is that if you look at this panel here,
00:28:57 we are on the front lines. And we all see innovative opportunities to have a better response.
00:29:09 And that's what we want to see. We know that the Ponderosa Pine is going to burn down. And so we
00:29:15 think, well, if that's what the predictions are because of the dry conditions, why not
00:29:19 harvest that, put it into cross-laminated timber, make great economies in local communities,
00:29:26 and store carbon instead? So I think that's something probably everybody on this panel
00:29:31 would agree with. But as Senator Barraza said, we're not moving fast enough to do that. And so
00:29:38 I think we have very historic policies that need to shift. One of those, I believe, that needs to
00:29:47 shift faster is the Small Business Administration Timber Set-Aside Program for stewardship contracts.
00:29:53 Because these smaller mills are taking these innovation risks. They are saying, we will do
00:29:59 cross-laminated timber, we will do innovative things, but you're not giving them the supply.
00:30:05 So what can we do to make sure that the Small Business Timber Set-Aside Program actually works
00:30:11 and you actually give these mills a supply? Because right now, they're not getting that
00:30:18 supply. So they're barely hanging on. Yeah. Yeah. Senator, first of all, I would support the
00:30:23 SBA set-aside. I would like to point out to you that we have what I would consider a significant
00:30:30 success on the Mantalo Sal in Utah, where you had a small logger and we worked with him to do his
00:30:37 own marketing for material. And while that forest has not cut a lot of timber traditionally,
00:30:44 historically, they've gone from almost no program to this logger now went from one truck to nine
00:30:51 trucks. They cannot keep up with- Great. I only have a few minutes, so I've got to get to some
00:30:57 other things. Would you provide me with an overlay map of where we think our most highest risk pine
00:31:04 forests are going to burn down and show me where you are willing to put set-aside small business
00:31:09 agreements in the Pacific Northwest? I appreciate what you did in Utah, but I need to know what you
00:31:15 will do for the Pacific Northwest. Could you provide that to us? Sure. Yes. Okay. So Senator
00:31:20 Cruz and I introduced a Fire Ready Nation bill to try to get more information out of NOAA because
00:31:25 of their weather service forecast information is critical. Do you think that this legislation
00:31:32 could help you in becoming aware of what the risks are for the Forest Service with better
00:31:38 science coordination with NOAA? Yes, I do. And in fact, we have a longstanding agreement with NOAA
00:31:44 and we do include them. I would also just like to add, and looking at the fires that happened down
00:31:50 in New Mexico, we also, in addition to the larger weather station information, we also want to be
00:31:56 able to have local and portable weather stations because of the local weather burst that sometimes
00:32:02 the larger weather station doesn't pick up. And so in that, we also need to look at some additional
00:32:08 types of equipment that would give our on the ground people better information and better real
00:32:12 time information before they began to do a lot of prescribed burning. Well, this is what we need. We
00:32:17 absolutely need this. We lost firefighters because in the central part of our state, they had one
00:32:21 weather forecast and in Seattle, just over the ridge, over the mountains, they were saying it's
00:32:25 something else. Right. High volatility. And we lost firefighters because we didn't have that
00:32:30 information. So we want the best information. I need to ask you about fixed anchors and wilderness
00:32:36 areas. These are important aspects of climbing that were there prior to designations of wilderness.
00:32:44 Do you think that fixed anchor should be prohibited in wilderness areas?
00:32:47 So, Senator, so there's people on both sides of that issue and we are asking you, I'm asking you
00:32:55 whether you think that, well, I, you know, I can't give you an opinion until we reach out to our
00:32:58 public. Right. And so we're in the process now of having a draft directives being put out. So we did
00:33:04 receive comments back in January. In fact, we received about 9,000 comments. And so we are in
00:33:09 the process of analyzing that before we move out with a final. What do you want people to do in
00:33:14 wilderness areas? Because I'd like them to go hiking and climbing, but if people have installed
00:33:19 anchors and you're spending your time instead of helping us get a CLT bill, focusing on removing
00:33:24 fixed anchors, that's the wrong priority. So maybe we'll have to do legislation, but I believe that
00:33:30 the answer is they belong, particularly in areas where they've already been pre the wilderness
00:33:36 designation, fixed anchors belong. Please support the climbing industry that is benefiting from
00:33:42 wilderness. That's why we have it. So people can go and enjoy it. Thank you very much, Chief Moore.
00:33:46 Senator Lee. Chief Moore, I'd like to begin by asking you to clarify something, a term that I'm
00:33:54 not familiar with. What do you mean by big C versus little C cooperating agency?
00:33:58 Well, so, you know, and it goes back to my experience from many years ago, working with the
00:34:05 county supervisors, county commissioners, wanting to have a say in what finally happens,
00:34:11 you know, in our documents. And there's a way to do that. And I think the way to do that is to
00:34:18 have a collaborative process with our publics, and particularly our elected officials.
00:34:24 And so we think that it's imperative that they be included in what's going on in their part.
00:34:29 It doesn't answer my question in any way. Look, I've got limited time. Maybe you can respond in
00:34:35 writing. I really do need to know what the difference is between a big C and a lower C
00:34:39 cooperating agency. Not defining law. I've never heard of it before. Not in any of your guidance
00:34:43 documents, rules, anything like that. But look, I've got to move on. Just respond to that one in
00:34:48 writing if you can. Look, the draft plan for the Manti-LaSalle National Forest proposes 122,780
00:34:56 acres of quote-unquote "recommended wilderness." This is really concerning to me. Congress passed
00:35:02 the Utah Wilderness Act in 1984. It's a product of a long, protracted, hard-fought compromise
00:35:10 made by the state of Utah. And it's something that designated wilderness in exchange for
00:35:16 assurance. Assurance that no future Utah wilderness designations would be made. Now,
00:35:22 the Forest Service appears to be ignoring this history, and both the state and the individual
00:35:27 county resource management plans applicable to that area. The only way we get healthy forests
00:35:33 is by having flexibility to perform active management of the forests. It turns out,
00:35:40 as we've learned over the last few decades, you let the thing just go. That's terrible for forest
00:35:44 health. What we're dealing with throughout Utah is this patchwork. This patchwork of designated
00:35:50 wilderness, recommended wilderness, and inventoried roadless areas that make active management a
00:35:56 nightmare. And frankly, practically unachievable. These updated forest plans will only make the
00:36:03 situation worse, as you've got them drafted. Can you explain how these new wilderness
00:36:07 recommendations were developed, and why the state and local counties' input is apparently
00:36:13 disregarded completely in the preferred alternative? Yeah, so the forest supervisor is planning to meet
00:36:21 with the county supervisors to cooperate on that forest plan issue. And how'd that go?
00:36:27 It hasn't taken place yet. They are scheduled to have a meeting to discuss this very issue that
00:36:32 you're bringing up. We'll be happy to let you know how they go once the meeting takes place.
00:36:36 Yeah, after the draft plan was released, but before that, it apparently didn't happen that way.
00:36:43 I don't know why I should have any assurance that it'll go any better now. Now, look,
00:36:46 every single state official and county commissioner that I talk to seems to be
00:36:51 increasingly frustrated with the way the Forest Service manages forest service land. All these
00:37:00 local officials ask for is a real seat at a real table in these important decisions that have to
00:37:07 be made. Decisions that affect us, our local communities, very directly, much more directly
00:37:12 than they do anybody else. We all want healthy forests, and we all want to avoid catastrophic
00:37:18 wildfires. But the consequences of bad policy hit some of us a whole lot more than they hit others.
00:37:24 For example, in both the Ashley and the Manti-Lasalle proposals, the Forest Service appears
00:37:31 willing to enter into co-management arrangements with tribes.
00:37:35 With tribes. But it refuses to incorporate state and county comments into the planning process.
00:37:41 If the Forest Service can enter co-management arrangements with the
00:37:46 tribes, why exactly can't it enter into similar arrangements with county governments
00:37:51 and the state government? Senator, we do honor the county government, and we do work with them
00:38:01 same as we work with tribes. In fact, we probably work more with the county governments than we do
00:38:05 with tribes. With co-management? Co-management, the same way you got it with the tribes?
00:38:09 No, it's... It's not been my experience. Yeah, well, you know, tribes are a sovereign nation,
00:38:13 so we deal with them differently than... Yeah, states also are sovereign. They are
00:38:17 co-sovereigns. States are co-sovereigns, and tribes also have their own elements of co-sovereignty.
00:38:22 Senator, we deal with the counties, and we work with the counties. They have a seat at the table,
00:38:27 and I'm not sure... I'm not sure we're not doing just exactly what you're saying, because...
00:38:34 Well, I'm certain that you're not. I'm certain that you're not. Look,
00:38:38 the 2001 roadless rule establishes prohibition on road construction and on timber harvesting on 58.5
00:38:46 million acres of inventoried roadless areas in National Forest Service lands,
00:38:53 National Forest System lands. Has the 2001 roadless rule helped or hindered
00:38:59 with wildfire mitigation efforts? I suppose that's going to depend on your perspective,
00:39:05 Senator. Helped or hindered, which one? Well, I don't have a say in whether it helps or hindered.
00:39:10 You know, I have to... You don't... Maybe... Regardless of what you do,
00:39:13 does it? Just describe it. In your assessment, has it helped or hindered wildfire mitigation efforts?
00:39:19 Well, I don't think it was designed to help wildfire mitigation, sir.
00:39:22 Understood. Thank you. Senator Heinrich.
00:39:30 Chief, welcome. A number of us on this committee worked really hard on the Great American Outdoors
00:39:36 Act that gave five years of extra funding to tackle the maintenance backlog at a number of
00:39:43 public land agencies, including yours. It's fixing up places like Sandia Crest Recreation Area. It's
00:39:49 fixing up campsites in the Jemez National Recreation Area. We're now in year four of the
00:39:55 five. Can you walk through for me what percentage of Forest Service funds from fiscal year 21 and
00:40:01 22, the first two, are actually under contract now? Yeah. Senator, can I get you that information?
00:40:15 Can you get that for the record? Sure.
00:40:16 Because I want to make sure... We're seeing progress, but we're well into that now,
00:40:24 and we want to make sure those funds make it to the ground because they really open up opportunities
00:40:30 for local communities in terms of the economic opportunities that come with public land
00:40:36 recreation. The Wildland Fire Mitigation and Management Commission and the GO found that
00:40:43 there's not enough affordable, available, and adequate housing to recruit and retain wildland
00:40:48 firefighters, something that you referenced in your testimony. These are folks that families
00:40:54 count on to protect them from these catastrophic wildfires. Is the funding that you requested in
00:41:01 this budget enough to clear the backlog on firefighter housing maintenance?
00:41:05 No, sir. Not by a long shot. How much of a dent will it make?
00:41:10 The backlog is about 350 million acres, and so anything less than that is not going to
00:41:17 really get at the backlog. No, I'm saying in terms of housing,
00:41:22 the additional funds that you've requested, what scale of progress are you going to make in terms
00:41:29 of making sure that our firefighters have access to adequate and well-constructed housing?
00:41:34 So in the funds that we're requesting now, I think we have about $25 million that we're
00:41:41 planning to put toward improving the housing situation. In fact, we're looking at completely
00:41:47 redoing one barracks and then making a lot of necessary changes to many of the other barracks
00:41:53 and houses. Can you get us a full list of those? Because
00:41:57 this is a cart before the horse thing. If we don't have adequate housing, then we're not going to
00:42:02 have the firefighting force to be able to actually deal with the challenges that some of my colleagues
00:42:07 have described. I would agree wholeheartedly.
00:42:10 When we last talked, the Forest Service was finalizing a contract to repair the Santa Fe
00:42:16 National Forest fence that keeps cattle from trespassing onto the neighboring property,
00:42:23 which is the Valles Caldera National Preserve. What's the status of that contract at this point?
00:42:28 So we've agreed to put up a million dollars toward the construction of the fence,
00:42:33 and we've also agreed to go halves on maintenance of the fence once it's done.
00:42:37 And is that contract actually, not the maintenance contract, but the repair contract,
00:42:46 has that been executed? We have a meeting set up with the Park Service.
00:42:51 We have an agreement in place, but we have not signed off on that agreement. But the agreement
00:42:58 would be halves on both the actual construction of the fence and the maintenance of the fence.
00:43:05 This has been a long time coming, so I would just urge you and Director Sams to figure this
00:43:10 thing out, because it's a continual source of friction in the area.
00:43:17 Yes.
00:43:18 Last week, the Lincoln National Forest shut down Sitting Bull Falls Recreation Area.
00:43:24 It's a popular spot about an hour from Carlsbad that families enjoy over the summer in particular.
00:43:31 Why is Sitting Bull Falls closed, and what's the Forest Service plan to get it reopened?
00:43:36 Yes, so my information says that that is not closed, even though there are some staffing
00:43:43 challenges, but the facility is open. And there's also maintenance needs for that facility. But
00:43:50 Senator --
00:43:51 It's my understanding, at least from what I've heard from the public, is that it's closed. So
00:43:56 we need to get our staffs together on that and figure out what the plan is to make sure that,
00:44:00 especially as we get into the summer season, when demand is particularly high, that we maximize
00:44:07 that facility.
00:44:08 In fact, my information tells me that they're ready for the Memorial Day weekend.
00:44:12 And so I will check that.
00:44:14 That would be a pleasant surprise. So let's work on that. Thank you, Chief.
00:44:18 Thank you.
00:44:19 We have Senator Murkowski.
00:44:25 Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Chief. Good to see you again. You were in front of the Interior
00:44:32 Appropriations Subcommittee just about a month ago. You made a comment then that resonated with
00:44:37 me. You said, "I can tell you with certainty that if we do not have a vibrant timber industry,
00:44:44 we're not going to be able to manage our forests and make them healthy and resilient."
00:44:49 Good statement. But it just seems contradictory to the way that the Tongass and the Wabigat National
00:44:56 Forests are managed. The Forest Service has completely shifted away from offering viable
00:45:01 inventories of timber. And in the case of the Tongass, they really have just pulled the rug
00:45:08 out from under the industry. You and I have talked about this a lot, but they abandoned the
00:45:11 transition policy that Secretary Vilsack forced on them during the Obama administration. So we have
00:45:21 a timber industry that is practically non-existent right now. And it kind of speaks to your statement
00:45:30 about it's impossible to have a healthy and resilient forest without a vibrant timber
00:45:34 industry. Well, we don't have a vibrant timber industry. So can you share with me,
00:45:39 other than research into end-use forest products, what is the Forest Service doing to help support
00:45:48 the few remaining small mill operators that are located in the Tongass?
00:45:54 So, Senator Murkowski, you know better than anyone just the history of timber.
00:46:02 I know it all too well. I've lived it.
00:46:04 And I still stand by my statement that without a vibrant timber industry, we will not be able
00:46:10 to manage our nation's forests. So what do I tell our small mill operators there in Southeast?
00:46:16 Is there a future for them? Or do they need to just pack up, let their employees go elsewhere?
00:46:22 Well, I certainly think there's a future there. I think what we need to do is work on
00:46:27 how much of that is available to be harvested. And I'm still committed.
00:46:33 Well, it's the largest national forest in the country. There's plenty of available timber.
00:46:39 It's the supply, as you well know, and the sales that are put up
00:46:43 that don't result in anything for even the smallest of the small timber sawmills.
00:46:48 And you know, Senator, we're guided by a lot of policies and regulations.
00:46:54 And the policies and regulations are such that the Tongass has been shut down effectively for
00:46:59 timber harvesting. I mean, that's pretty much it. Let me shift to the Southeast Alaska Sustainable
00:47:06 Strategy because that was Vilsack's promise. We're going to cut off timber. We're going to
00:47:11 not be harvesting or certainly not putting up available sales for timber there. But we're going
00:47:17 to give you resources from the federal government. $25 million was the first tranche.
00:47:25 And I had asked you last month about the funding that Secretary Vilsack had promised. He said,
00:47:34 again, the $25 million is the first tranche. I asked for an update on additional funding.
00:47:41 You shared with me the same thing that Secretary Vilsack did, that, well, Southeast has gotten
00:47:49 funding through IJA and through IRA. That is true. But as I reminded everybody, this promise
00:47:56 on the Southeast Sustainable Strategy was well before we had even thought about IJA or IRA.
00:48:04 And so, in fairness, that does not count. That is not keeping the promise of Secretary Vilsack.
00:48:11 So you indicated that you were going to double check on the status of where we are,
00:48:15 what Southeast might be able to expect. Because right now, I've got these small
00:48:22 local mills that are thinking, well, okay, maybe that's part of our survivability strategy,
00:48:30 is that we're going to be getting some kind of support from these additional sources of funding
00:48:37 from the Southeast Sustainable Strategy. Senator, you are right. We had the $25 million
00:48:43 originally, and since then, we've provided an additional $50 million. But I'll look to see
00:48:48 how much of that is IJA and how much of that is other funding. But I know that it was $50
00:48:53 additional million. I bet I can beat you to the breakdown on that, unfortunately.
00:48:58 One quick question here before my time is out. You know that just last week,
00:49:03 we introduced the Chugach Alaska Land Exchange Oil Spill Recovery Act. This grants Chugach
00:49:10 ownership of approximately 65,000 acres of culturally significant, economically viable,
00:49:16 full estate and surface lands. This completes the promise under the Dingell Act. This is the result
00:49:23 of several years of groundwork by the entire Alaska delegation and working with the Department
00:49:32 of Interior and Forest Service. I know you've worked on that, but I'm hoping that I can get
00:49:37 your commitment that Forest Service is going to work proactively with our office so that we can
00:49:43 advance this legislation and address this split state ownership challenge.
00:49:49 Yes. We're committed to continuing to work with you on that.
00:49:52 Okay. We want to get it done sooner than later. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
00:49:55 Senator Hickenlooper.
00:49:56 Thank you, Mr. Chair. And thank you, both of you, for being here today. Mr. Moore, I always
00:50:06 appreciate your affection for our forests and your commitment to it, which I share.
00:50:11 Every time I'm in the forest, I feel like I'm getting better. Somehow, my life resolves itself
00:50:19 in positive ways. I want to reiterate what Senator Cantwell talked about, the issues around fixed
00:50:28 anchors in various parts of the national forests. And we've got a proposal in with the Outdoor
00:50:34 Recreation Act that allows those fixed anchors to be, that are in place, to remain in place.
00:50:39 The House bill's come across. We're trying to reconcile that. I think we are going to get it
00:50:43 reconciled. So just to alert you that that's coming, there are two sides to this. But I look
00:50:51 at the costs and the impositions to try and go out and remove fixed anchors or make it a decision
00:50:57 process you've got to go through in every national park. It really doesn't seem to make very much
00:51:04 sense. So I think there's certainly a strong sentiment that way throughout the Senate.
00:51:09 Let me ask you a question about housing. We talked a little bit about housing for firefighters, but
00:51:16 many of the smaller towns across the West, and to a certain extent in the East as well,
00:51:22 are having housing issues. And I think local communities have asked us whether we can talk
00:51:28 to the Forest Service about doing joint venture partnerships for housing that might be for
00:51:33 employees of the Forest Service, but also for local teachers or nurses, people that are not
00:51:41 sufficiently compensated to be able to afford housing where they live. Is that something that's,
00:51:45 is there an opportunity there? Absolutely. In fact, I think this is one in the crisis
00:51:51 face of America, and it certainly has an impact on the Forest Service. Your own state has been
00:51:58 one of our pilot areas there on the White River National Forest, where we are looking at working
00:52:04 with the community to build homes in exchange for homes for our employees. That really has set a
00:52:10 tone that's starting to be spread across the nation to be creative in how we really address
00:52:17 this issue. But it's all of our issues, it's all of our community's issues, and so I'm glad to see
00:52:24 where the communities are coming together to work with us and vice versa, trying to fix this issue,
00:52:29 because at the end of the day, if we do not have employees in many of these locations, we cannot
00:52:33 do the job that you're asking us to do. And in the end, we all are, we're all in it together,
00:52:39 and I think that that approach of White River is an excellent example. I know there are a couple
00:52:43 examples you guys are working on. I didn't want to brag about Colorado again being the innovator,
00:52:48 but such as it is. And Mr. Liechtenstein, you haven't had a chance to really hold forth.
00:52:56 I've got a more philosophical question, not in an adversarial tone, but really, you know, I was
00:53:03 governor for eight years and we had some of the worst, it was the beginning of this phase of
00:53:06 wildfires that were immense, I mean enormous, and they continue. I mean, people could argue back
00:53:13 and forth and we don't need to debate here the causes of the changing climate, but clearly,
00:53:20 wildfires are increasing, the conditions, the humidity in the air, everything is changing to
00:53:26 make them more frequent and worse. I was always puzzled, and I spent a lot of time on the
00:53:32 firefighting out in the control centers. So often we would spend enormous amounts of money and then
00:53:38 the wind would change and our fire line would be overrun, it would go, the fire would go around,
00:53:44 the fires are, they are so malevolent, it's almost like they have an evil spirit, that our best
00:53:50 intentions, they come back in directions we can't anticipate. How do we study that? How do we begin
00:53:58 looking at, you know, whether you're flying over and dropping retardant mixed with water on the
00:54:04 fire or digging trenches, I'm sure you guys must be doing studies, but at least at that point we
00:54:09 didn't have, there was nothing I could look at that gave me comfort that the increasing, every
00:54:14 state is now, I realize you guys are spending more money out of your budget as well, but states are
00:54:19 doing the same thing, and I think there might be need for better study, and you probably are way
00:54:25 ahead of me on this. Now, Mr. Lichtenstein, I want the strategic planner here. Well, I appreciate
00:54:32 Not that you are both strategic planning, I did not mean that. I appreciate the question, and fire
00:54:36 is a complex environment. Luckily, before I was a budget, I oversaw a lot of the fire program,
00:54:42 and understand that the change of conditions we face with fire just creates a situation that
00:54:47 becomes more volatile and unpredictable, but we have done considerable amounts of research,
00:54:52 particularly through the Rocky Mountain Research Station, which is kind of the hub of our fire
00:54:56 research, that has really developed different thoughts around potential control points and
00:55:00 different strategies to be able to manage these fires a little bit differently, where it is not
00:55:04 so much about overwhelming force the entire time, but thinking about where do I actually use the
00:55:10 resources I have available, and the actual ecological conditions, and quiescent periods,
00:55:16 and weather, to actually be able to take advantage of those to address the fires more effectively.
00:55:21 Maybe I will get our staff to reach out. I don't know, Mr. Moore, if you want to add anything to
00:55:26 that. You don't need to add anything. I just want to make sure if you wanted to add something to
00:55:32 that. Well, the only thing I would add is what you will see different now over the last couple
00:55:37 of years is that part of the incident command team structure, we are allowing that local people to
00:55:43 come into the tent to share information about local conditions. There has been a lot of concern
00:55:50 that sometimes the incident, the IC team does not have local knowledge, and so we have responded to
00:55:56 that by including some locals in there to share that local knowledge. That's good additional
00:56:01 information. Thank you both for being here. I've got other questions on the Colorado River and some
00:56:04 of the hydrology issues. We will put those into writing. I yield back to the chair.
00:56:08 Senator Daines.
00:56:10 Chief Moore, this is a timely discussion as fires continue to multiply across our country.
00:56:19 Many important force management projects that would decrease the risk of catastrophic wildfires
00:56:26 have been halted by litigation. In fact, in Montana alone, 300 million board feet, in fact,
00:56:34 more than 300 million board feet is tied up by litigation. This stops the removal of hazardous
00:56:42 fuels that are surrounding our communities as well as other high-risk areas. And just the threat
00:56:48 of legal action forces the Forest Service to spend additional time making projects bulletproof
00:56:56 against litigation. In fact, there's a small project in Montana where the Forest Service
00:57:02 planned to harvest just over a thousand acres but spent 19 months from scoping to decision
00:57:11 and created a 183-page environmental assessment. My bill that I have to fix the Ninth Circuit
00:57:21 Cottonwood decision that passed this committee last May would be crucial in preventing some of
00:57:28 the litigation that is stopping wildfire mitigation work and I'll continue to urge
00:57:34 its passage in the full Senate. I know it'd be a huge help for what you all have to do.
00:57:39 But it's critical in the meantime that the Forest Service press forward with
00:57:44 forest management projects and on-the-ground work. The Forest Service treated 4.3 million acres
00:57:53 in fiscal 2023 with nearly half of those treatment acres being prescribed fire
00:58:00 and of those acres nearly three-quarters being done in the South. While it's good that there
00:58:07 is necessary work being done across the country, there are crisis landscapes in Montana and across
00:58:15 the West where it's a bit more arid that need focus. The state of Montana, looking on the state
00:58:23 efforts, more than tripled their acres treated from 2020 to 2023. At the same time, the Forest
00:58:34 Service increased acres by about 34 percent again while the state of Montana tripled. We need to see
00:58:41 the Forest Service follow the lead we're seeing in Montana from our state and place a greater
00:58:48 emphasis and a sense of urgency on increasing treated acres. My question for you, Chief Moore,
00:58:55 is why does the Forest Service fiscal year 25 budget decrease the target number of acres treated
00:59:04 from fiscal year 24? So here again, Senator, there's a lot there so I'll try and respond to
00:59:14 it in its entirety. When you look at our budget now, a lot of our budget goes toward
00:59:23 has fuel reduction, not timber production. When I look at the amount of timber that we are providing,
00:59:30 we've seen a steady increase. I'll go national but I'll come down to Montana.
00:59:34 We've seen an increase over the last 20 years of about 30 percent increase in timber. And so while
00:59:42 that perception is out there that we're not producing timber, that's it's not accurate.
00:59:48 When you look at what we're actually doing now, more specifically to Montana, I've gone out with
00:59:54 Governor Jim Forte to visit, I think it was the Basin Creek watershed area there where you have
01:00:01 a community there that's threatened by wildfires. And as a result of what the state is doing,
01:00:08 we match that to really treat the Basin Creek watershed area there. Montana in and of itself
01:00:15 is our leader across the country in good neighbor authority and user net authority. And so we have
01:00:22 a lot of really good work taking place in Montana. I will also tell you that Montana is our most
01:00:28 litiguous state in the country when it comes to forest product types of projects. And so you have
01:00:36 a lot of that coming to bear there. But here again, I think that entire region, when I look
01:00:42 at Montana and Idaho for that matter, they're doing some really excellent work with good neighbor
01:00:47 authority and really getting work done. No, thanks for coming out to Montana too and spending time
01:00:52 with our governor. I appreciate that and seeing it firsthand. Just the bigger question though is
01:00:56 why would the target decrease from 4.2 million to 4 million? At a time when we need more treatment,
01:01:04 your target actually decreased year over year. No, our target is actually going up. When I look at
01:01:11 the 2025 -- Make sure we're talking the same numbers. At least what my numbers show is FY24,
01:01:19 the target was 4.2 million acres. Oh, it has fuel.
01:01:22 It has hazardous fuel reduction. And the FY25 target is 4 million. So it's 200,000 acres less
01:01:33 in terms of your target. That's the question. Why would it go down? Yeah, I was thinking you
01:01:37 meant timber production, not acres treated. I'm talking hazardous fuel reduction.
01:01:41 Yeah. So one reason the budget has gone down and has fuel reduction.
01:01:45 Why would we take the budget down in hazardous fuel reduction?
01:01:49 We had a loss in Ira. We've had a lot of increase in costs.
01:01:54 Because you think about it, if you're reducing hazardous fuels, it's a way to
01:02:04 try to preempt catastrophic wildfires, which are very expensive to fight once they begin.
01:02:10 Right. And the fundamental question that I was saying earlier that I think we really have to
01:02:15 talk about, what is that new performance metric? Is it protecting communities? And is it protecting
01:02:22 those critical watersheds that these communities depend on? And if it is, those acres are more
01:02:27 expensive to treat. And where we have been measured by the numbers acres achieved or treated,
01:02:34 we have put ourselves in a position where we're doing random acts of restoration across the
01:02:40 landscapes now because of that metric of outputs. And while that's important, Senator, what we're
01:02:47 finding through the wildfire crisis strategy, what's even more important is protecting communities.
01:02:51 And if you agree with that, then perhaps we need to look at outcomes based on the work that we're
01:02:58 doing. Also, you have a lot of steep slopes that we're trying to get to. All of that is more
01:03:04 expensive to try and achieve. And you do less work because it takes more to work in those areas.
01:03:08 Yeah. Well, it's just, thank you for that. I know you're balancing competing priorities in terms of
01:03:14 costs, but it's just troubling at a time when we're seeing increasingly buildups of hazardous fuels
01:03:21 that the target, the forest service actually went down year over year from 4.2 million to 4 million.
01:03:27 I mean, you've got to look at where you got to spend, where you got to target. But I just,
01:03:30 I raise that as a real concern when you think about that's an investment too, to try to reduce
01:03:36 the cost to fight catastrophic wildfires. This is kind of pay me now or pay me later. And you
01:03:41 pay a lot more later. Well, I'll give you an example. Last year, our target was 4 million,
01:03:46 and we actually achieved 4.3 million. And so we achieved more than what our target was.
01:03:51 And this year, when we, for 25, when you look at where the budget is going, we don't have the same
01:03:58 level of budget to do that amount of work coupled with the areas that we're working in now, which is
01:04:04 more expensive. I know. Thank you. I've got to respect my colleagues' time. I'm over my time,
01:04:09 chief. Thank you. Senator Padilla. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Chief Moore, great to see you. Thank you
01:04:19 for always taking my calls when we need you to say thank you for the work that the great work
01:04:24 that you've been doing. And obviously, when we're in a pinch and dealing with some challenges that
01:04:29 there's no shortage of in the state of California. So I want to begin by thanking you and your entire
01:04:34 team at the Forest Service for your work in general, but more specifically and more recently,
01:04:40 for your support in the expansion of both the Barrios of Snow Mountain National Monument in
01:04:46 Northern California and the San Gabriel Mountains National Monument in Southern California, which
01:04:52 includes additional acreage in the Western Angeles National Forest. It's a major accomplishment.
01:04:58 Appreciate the partnership and working together. And thank you for the support of
01:05:04 Jen Eberling, who was with us at the celebration this last Saturday. I do want to turn to an issue
01:05:11 that was touched on earlier in the hearing, that of federal firefighter pay. I was proud to
01:05:16 introduce the Wildland Firefighter Payment Protection Act together with Senator Sinema,
01:05:21 which would protect the pay raises secured for wildland firefighters in the bipartisan
01:05:26 infrastructure law. My question to you, and for the record, the proposed budget for FY25
01:05:33 provides $216 million to implement a permanent, comprehensive pay increase for the firefighter
01:05:41 workforce. From you to the committee, how will these pay increases compare to the pay raises
01:05:48 secured in the bipartisan infrastructure law? Yeah, thank you, Senator. So one of the biggest
01:05:53 differences is that the pay raises in the bipartisan infrastructure bill, it doesn't allow
01:06:00 that increase to be carried over into retirement. And that's one of the biggest differences there.
01:06:07 The other big difference between the two is that our recruitment and retention improves with a
01:06:14 permanent version of that, as opposed to that temporary version of that that's been extended
01:06:21 through the continuous resolution. And by the way, we really thank and appreciate Congress for
01:06:26 extending it. We also know that we have a lot of nervous firefighters out there waiting to see if
01:06:33 this is going to be permanent or not. And if by chance it's not, we probably could expect to see
01:06:39 a lot of our firefighters leaving for better pay and better opportunities.
01:06:44 I know there's a general recruitment and retention issues across the workforce,
01:06:49 but I understand it's particularly acute amongst firefighters. So I think you answered my follow-up
01:06:55 question. Would it be helpful for your efforts for Congress to pass a permanent pay increase?
01:07:01 I'll assume the answer is yes. Yeah, I think it would certainly help the federal workforce.
01:07:06 On a different topic, recreation.gov has been in the news. It's a popular website for users to
01:07:15 book campsites, enter hiking lotteries, or reserve vehicle passes. And with each of these transactions,
01:07:21 a small reservation fee is charged. Now, while many users expect that the entirety of their fees
01:07:28 when booking on the website directly benefit the public lands that they treasure and that they
01:07:33 visit, there's some of the money that is instead funneled to the website manager, which has been
01:07:43 reported to be about $140 million in profits from 2018 to 2022. So I think it's important that we
01:07:52 use thoughtful reservation systems that balance both our conservation efforts with public access.
01:07:58 But I'm concerned that there's a bit of lack of transparency here around the fee structure
01:08:03 for the website. What's the status of the recreation.gov contract, and what is the
01:08:09 Forest Service doing to increase transparency of lotteries and campsite applications?
01:08:14 Senator Padil, I can get to you more of the specifics that I have
01:08:18 more assurance on in terms of its accuracy. So I provide that to you.
01:08:22 Okay, I'll take that as a follow-up and include in that, please. This was the topic of conversation
01:08:30 in the subcommittee hearing yesterday with the Park Service, where I asked them to follow up on
01:08:35 what are the best practices that they're considering in ensuring that we design an equitable
01:08:40 reservation system, including what they may need from Congress to help improve outcomes.
01:08:47 We've got to measure. The point I was making yesterday is it's one thing to build on access,
01:08:52 right? These monument expansions, for example, every new national park that's created provides
01:08:56 access for the American public. We know that there's a gap in access, a nature gap, if you
01:09:04 will, which particular communities of color, lower income communities visit the parks less.
01:09:09 And I just want to make sure that when there's a reservation system online, the way it's designed,
01:09:14 the way people interface with it, it's a tool to help close the gap, not exacerbate that gap.
01:09:21 So if you can include some of that information in your follow-up, I'd really appreciate it. But
01:09:25 thank you again for your service. Now I pass it over to Senator Hoeven for questions.
01:09:33 Thank you, Senator Padilla. Chief, good to have you here. Thanks to both of you gentlemen for
01:09:38 joining us. We appreciate you and your work. And Chief, we're working on getting you out to
01:09:45 North Dakota on the National Grasslands the week of June 24. Does that still sound like
01:09:49 something that you're planning to work on with us to get done? Yes. All I know, Senator, is it is
01:09:56 June and I have agreed to it. I don't know the specific date, but I know that we're working
01:10:00 with your staff. Yeah, they told us June 24 that week. And so we'll work with your staff and look
01:10:05 for it. Obviously getting out there and seeing our cowboys and energy producers and tourism officials
01:10:10 and everybody else, they really appreciate it. And they'll turn out to see it and have an
01:10:16 opportunity to visit with you. So we appreciate that. You've got a travel management plan you're
01:10:22 working on. I think it really goes to where you're identifying all your roads and access points out
01:10:29 in the grasslands. I guess my question there is, will you commit to consulting with all relevant
01:10:34 stakeholders as you work on that travel management plan? Yes, absolutely. Okay. And that's something
01:10:41 obviously we can talk about when you're out there as well. I think it was last year we had
01:10:45 Deputy Chief French out there. He did a great job. So he set a high bar for you.
01:10:55 I told him to be on standby to come with me. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, he really put the
01:11:00 pressure on. He actually did a great job. We appreciate him being out there and met with our
01:11:03 folks. But also as a result of that effort, announced that additional funding for noxious
01:11:09 weeds, which is really important. The first 1.7 million has been allocated, but a commitment of
01:11:15 four and a half million. I want to know that you stand behind that and that that'll be something
01:11:20 we can talk to our grazers about. Yes, absolutely. Good. Thank you. Senator Padilla asked you about
01:11:26 staffing needs. Do you think you're making some progress there? That is a real issue for us as
01:11:32 well, having the staff out there. Yeah, we are making some progress on that. Our challenge
01:11:36 really, and it's not something that's only a Forest Service issue. It's an issue for many
01:11:42 of our communities. But we are struggling from time to time to find the expertise to come to
01:11:49 some locations because of the cost of living. It's a challenge. It is. Yeah. And so I just want to
01:11:55 emphasize that as well. We really need folks out there, you know, in our part of the world to
01:11:59 deferred maintenance. We passed the Great American Outdoors Act, as you know,
01:12:05 to get it a lot of things, one of which was deferred maintenance in a big way,
01:12:09 not only in the parks, but in on the national grasslands and other places as well.
01:12:13 What are your steps? Two things I want to go out here. One is,
01:12:18 our state's putting money into this on a partnership basis with you all. And the
01:12:25 next thing I'm going to ask you about is our Joint Chiefs program, you know, with the
01:12:32 NRCS. And so both our joint programs, we're trying to leverage your abilities to get stuff done out
01:12:42 there. And that includes a lot of things. I mean, you all are focused on a lot of the, you know,
01:12:47 the aspects that may go to tourism, some of those kinds of things. But our grazers, you know,
01:12:52 and ranchers, cowboys out there, you know, they want to, they need some fencing, they need water
01:12:57 lines, they need dugouts, all those things. They need enhancements on the ground, like I think both
01:13:02 Danes and Senator Padilla were maybe talking about, and Hickenlooper in terms of, you know,
01:13:08 addressing fire, prescribed burns, all that kind of stuff. Talk to me about both the partnership
01:13:14 with the state on those issues, where we'll provide money to partner with you, as well as
01:13:19 the Joint Chiefs program, which Bennett and I have worked on legislatively here.
01:13:24 Yeah, so on the Good Neighbor Authority, we have, that program has grown really significant,
01:13:30 working with the state, locals. We were hoping that, we were seeing some language in the farm
01:13:38 bill that would treat the counties and the tribes the same as the states, which would allow them to
01:13:43 keep the revenues in the counties and in the areas where it was generated. So I believe that is in a
01:13:52 version of the farm bill as we go forward, but I think that would make a large difference in what
01:13:58 the amount of work that we're able to do on the ground. I think when you look at the other piece
01:14:05 there, in terms of the Joint Chiefs Awards projects, we just met with NRCS and we've just approved,
01:14:14 I think, of 10 projects. And so we do see a lot of value in the Joint Chiefs, because it gives us
01:14:22 an opportunity to, more than anything, work as one USDA, where we bring in a number of USDA agencies
01:14:28 together to do work across jurisdictional boundaries. And so we've been seeing a lot of
01:14:33 value in that work and in that effort. Yeah, and those are things, again, and I'll try to get our
01:14:38 state ag commissioner out there as well. And then finally, Mr. Chairman, I beg your indulgence. This
01:14:47 is on behalf of Senator Barrasso. He had one question he wanted me to ask. So with your
01:14:51 indulgence, I'll go ahead and do that. The EPA recently revised its standard for particulate
01:14:58 matter, particulate matter 2.5 under the Clean Air Act. And so the concern is that this new
01:15:06 standard will effectively prohibit prescribed fires, you know, prescribed burns in the West.
01:15:12 That's something obviously we're very concerned about in the grasslands too, under this new
01:15:16 standard. So under the standard, will emissions from prescribed fires put communities in violation
01:15:21 of the Clean Air Act? So how I would respond to that, Senator, is that we've got to make some
01:15:29 choices. And if we do not allow prescribed fires to take place, then wildfires is going to take
01:15:36 place. And while we argue and debate about the amount of particulate matter, we, I think, really
01:15:43 need to have a really honest conversation about what it is that we're trying to achieve and what
01:15:49 are the lesser evils of this issue around fire. But prescribed fire, I think, is necessary to
01:15:58 take place. Exactly. And so does Congress need to provide an exemption for prescribed fires under
01:16:05 the Clean Air Act, in your opinion? I think if Congress did provide that, we would be satisfied.
01:16:09 Thanks again for being here today and for your work. We appreciate it. Thank you, Senator.
01:16:16 Thank you, Senator. Please pass along to Senator Barraza that there's bipartisan support on that
01:16:22 concept. So looking forward to working with him. Chief Moore, I now turn it over to Senator
01:16:29 Cortez-Master for her questions. Thank you. Chief, good to see you. Thank you for being here. Not
01:16:36 that you had a choice, but we appreciate you showing up. Over the past few years, the Forest
01:16:41 Service, along with other public land management agencies, have seen a considerable investment.
01:16:46 The Great American Outdoors Act, the Bipartisan Infrastructure Act and Inflation Reduction Act
01:16:52 have enabled major initiatives like the Wildfire Crisis Strategy. At the same time, the Forest
01:16:58 Service has made a concerted effort to recruit and hire new staff to implement the work borne
01:17:04 from these major investments. I know this. Let me just give you an example. The Humboldt-Toyabe
01:17:10 National Forest, which is mostly in Nevada, I understand has the highest staffing levels that
01:17:15 you've had in decades. In 2022 and 2023, more permanent employees were hired than were lost
01:17:20 to attrition, which had not been the case for many years. Last year, 64 new non-hires were brought
01:17:26 on board in Nevada. I'm curious to hear your outlook for the future because unless Congress
01:17:32 enacts extensions, all of these authorities have an expiration date. Yet the need, as you have been
01:17:40 talking here today, for all of these initiatives and investments still remains. How do you continue
01:17:45 the pace of work? What do you want us to know with respect to where we should be focusing
01:17:52 our attention and what we should be doing? First, I want to just acknowledge to Congress and this
01:17:58 committee how much we appreciate what we've been able to do with the bill and IRA funding.
01:18:06 It's given us a chance to really hit the reset button in many ways. What you mentioned on the
01:18:10 Humboldt-Toyabe, we had been losing steadily a lot of employees for the last 20 years.
01:18:16 The amount of requests and the amount of work continues to go up, the number of employers
01:18:22 has gone down. We've been really challenged on how we work with the public going forward.
01:18:27 While we've created a lot of really great relationships through partners and through
01:18:31 our community leaders, we really needed to beef up just the basic bare bone of the organization.
01:18:38 Bill and IRA has allowed us to do that. Now that we have beefed it up, our goal, we lost 40 percent
01:18:46 of a non-fire workforce over the last 20 years. Our ideal was to bring back half of that and then
01:18:53 leverage the other half through partnerships. I'm happy to say that last year, when we look at
01:18:59 partner contributions to what we've been able to do, they contribute about $970 million worth of
01:19:04 value to the work that we do because of that leveraging. We've also been able to bring some
01:19:09 employees back on board. Now we need to assess where we are with the number of employees,
01:19:15 because when we look at the attrition rate, I would like to think that people are happy in
01:19:21 the Forest Service. They're not leaving as rapidly as they used to, but there's a lot of factors going
01:19:27 there. We don't have the attrition rate that we normally had been having. We have to do an
01:19:32 assessment and see, okay, what kind of shifts do we need to make in the organization? That's where
01:19:37 we are from an organizational standpoint, but it's been so refreshing to be able to bring new
01:19:41 employees into the workforce with new perspectives, new ideas, and to help us move into that next
01:19:49 generation of natural resource management on our public lands. Thank you. I have to tell you,
01:19:53 the men and women that work in the Forest Service in Nevada that I know love their jobs and are
01:19:59 committed and truly believe in the mission. The biggest challenge we have is they're overworked
01:20:05 at times and overwhelmed because there's an understaffing issue. It's nice to see
01:20:09 that you're focused on addressing those issues. I'm going to ask you, and you may not be able to
01:20:15 answer it today, but if you could get back to me. Last summer, storms associated with the tropical
01:20:21 storm Hillary swept through southern Nevada, damaging communities and infrastructure.
01:20:26 Among the area's damage was the Spring Mountain National Recreation Area. It is managed by the
01:20:33 Forest Service. The damage caused to this area by floods forced closures of many areas important for
01:20:39 outdoor recreation. While much of that has reopened, I understand that some sites may stay
01:20:45 closed for the foreseeable future, either because a site can't be restored as it was or because not
01:20:50 enough money is available. You may not be able to now, but at some point in time, can you speak to
01:20:56 that and address why, just in general, your efforts to restore that Spring Mountain area?
01:21:05 Yeah. I'll get back with you on some specifics about that specific area. I know generally when
01:21:10 we have these types of things happen, a lot of times, and I'm not saying it happened there,
01:21:15 but a lot of times when those facilities were designed, they probably put facilities in places
01:21:20 that they probably should never have been. Not that this is the case. So we will look into the
01:21:25 specifics of that to talk about why some facilities didn't come back, but then how do we mitigate that
01:21:30 by adding others in other locations that was more suitable. Thank you. I look forward to that
01:21:35 follow-up. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, Senator Cortes Masto. I want to take
01:21:41 this opportunity to thank again our two witnesses. Senator Cortes Masto, you really had no choice,
01:21:46 but we do thank you for being here and for this discussion. A little bit of housekeeping. Members
01:21:54 of the committee will have until close of business tomorrow to submit additional questions for the
01:22:00 record. And with that, this committee now stands adjourned. Thank you very much.

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