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NewsTranscript
00:00 and government affairs.
00:02 We're here to discuss two important agencies
00:06 within our government, the Federal Labor Relations Authority,
00:09 FLRA, and the Office of Government Ethics, OGE.
00:15 The FLRA is an independent administrative agency,
00:18 as you all know, responsible
00:20 for enforcing federal employees' collective bargaining rights.
00:25 The OGE is an independent agency that leads
00:28 and oversees the executive branch ethics program.
00:32 Together, these two bodies ensure
00:35 that federal employees' rights are protected
00:38 and our government adheres to the highest standards of ethics.
00:44 These are vital functions, and I look forward to exploring more
00:48 with our nominees here today.
00:52 And I want to welcome our nominees and their families
00:55 if they're here with them, and congratulations.
00:59 Thank you, each of you, for your public service,
01:03 as well as your willingness to serve
01:05 in these important positions.
01:07 I'm going to be chairing this hearing
01:09 until Senator Peters arrives.
01:12 We want to move forward with this hearing right on time
01:16 because we have another afterward, and I'm going
01:20 to turn to the ranking member.
01:23 >> All right, well, thank you, Chairman.
01:25 Today, as Chairman Blumenthal just mentioned,
01:27 the Homeland Security and Government Mental Affairs
01:30 Committee will hold a hearing on three nominations.
01:32 I'm honored to welcome Colleen Kiko,
01:34 Ann Wagner, and David Hoytma.
01:37 I want to thank the three of you for your intention
01:39 to serve our country as public servants.
01:42 While preparing for this hearing, I was struck by how many
01:46 of you drew inspiration to enter public service
01:48 from those close to you.
01:50 Like yourselves, I was surrounded by individuals
01:52 who dedicated their lives to serving their fellow Americans,
01:56 including my father, who was a police officer for 30 years,
01:59 but also a long lineage of people serving in the military,
02:03 and now continued by my son serving
02:05 in the military as well.
02:07 Combined with the lessons you've learned
02:08 from those individuals, you have also added the experiences
02:11 of your professional careers.
02:14 Together, these have prepared the three of you
02:17 for this opportunity to serve the nation.
02:21 Ms. Kiko, Ms. Wagner, should you be confirmed
02:24 to these positions with the advice and consent
02:26 of the United States Senate, you'll be charged
02:28 with resolving complaints of unfair labor practices,
02:31 determining the appropriateness of units
02:33 for labor organization representation,
02:36 adjudicating exceptions for arbitrators' awards,
02:39 adjudicating legal issues relating to the duty to bargain,
02:43 and resolving impasses during negotiations.
02:47 Both of you had the track records to fulfill these duties.
02:51 You, Ms. Kiko, have already served a term
02:53 as the FLRA Chairwoman, and you, Ms. Wagner,
02:56 have a long career in this field,
02:57 with your most recent work being
02:59 as the Associate Special Counsel
03:00 with the Office of Special Counsel.
03:03 I look forward to hearing both of your testimonies
03:04 and asking you further questions
03:07 to determine your suitability for these roles.
03:10 And finally, Mr. Hoytman, should you be confirmed
03:13 as Director of the Office of Government Ethics,
03:16 you must be able to lead and oversee
03:18 the Executive Branch Ethics Program
03:20 by making and interpreting ethics laws and regulations,
03:23 support and train Executive Branch ethics officials,
03:26 administer the Executive Branch Financial Disclosure Systems,
03:29 monitor senior leaders' compliance with ethics committee,
03:32 ensure agencies comply with ethics program's requirements,
03:35 and make ethics information available to the public.
03:39 Like Ms. Kiko and Ms. Wagner, your resume speaks for itself
03:43 as you have a long history with the State Department
03:44 and currently manage the Department's ethics program.
03:48 Thank you for being here.
03:49 I look forward to hearing your testimony
03:51 and asking your questions.
03:53 Once again, I'd like to thank all the nominees
03:54 for their desire and willingness to serve.
03:57 I look forward to learning more about your qualifications
03:59 and hearing your testimonies.
04:00 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
04:02 - Thanks, Senator Marshall.
04:04 I'll introduce the nominees in order that they're seated.
04:08 Colleen Kiko, nominated to serve an additional term
04:13 as member of the Federal Labor Relations Authority,
04:16 has served since 2017 in that capacity
04:20 and has led the agency as chairman from 2017 to 2021.
04:25 She holds a JD from Scalia Law School
04:30 and a BS degree from North Dakota State University.
04:35 Anne Wagner, nominated to be a member
04:38 of the Federal Labor Relations Authority,
04:41 currently serves as an Associate Special Counsel
04:44 in the Office of Special Counsel.
04:46 That's a role she's held since 2015.
04:50 Ms. Wagner received her bachelor's degree
04:53 from the University of Notre Dame
04:54 and her law degree from George Washington University
04:57 School of Law.
04:58 Mr. David Haidema, nominated to be director
05:03 of the Office of Government Ethics,
05:05 served as the Department of State's
05:08 Assistant Legal Advisor for Ethics and Financial Disclosure
05:11 since 2016.
05:13 He holds a JD from Stanford Law School,
05:17 an MA from the University of Texas at Austin,
05:20 and a BA from the University of North Carolina
05:23 at Chapel Hill.
05:25 Our custom, as you may know, is to swear the witnesses,
05:28 so if you would please stand and raise your right hand.
05:32 Do you swear that the testimony you're about to give
05:35 is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?
05:38 So help you God.
05:38 Thank you.
05:41 If any of you have opening statements,
05:44 we would be pleased to hear them.
05:46 Ms. Kiko?
05:47 - Good morning, Chairman Blumenthal,
05:50 Ranking Member Marshall, members of the committee.
05:54 I thank you and your staff for all the kindness
05:56 that you have shown me as I prepared for this hearing.
05:59 My daughter, Sarah, is with me today.
06:01 My husband, Phil Kiko, is tied up on a matter
06:05 on the other side of the hill, or he would be here today.
06:07 I appreciate all the love and support provided by him
06:10 and all my family during this process.
06:12 I would also like to thank Anna Mulpus,
06:15 Murray Duncan, David Eddy, and Rebecca Osborne
06:18 from the FLRA for their kind assistance
06:20 throughout this process.
06:22 And I'm especially grateful for the Chairman Grundman,
06:25 who has been ever supportive and a pleasure to work with.
06:27 As someone who started their federal career
06:30 as a GS3 clerk typist, I am truly honored
06:34 to have been re-nominated to serve as a member
06:36 of the Federal Labor Relations Authority.
06:38 I thank President Biden for the opportunity
06:41 to serve in this capacity, should I be confirmed.
06:44 My dedication to federal service
06:46 was influenced by my parents.
06:48 My father, Lawrence E. Duffy, proudly spent over 49 years,
06:52 almost a half a century, in the federal service
06:54 before retiring.
06:56 After a stint in the U.S. Army,
06:57 he was a railway mail carrier for the Postal Service
07:01 in North Dakota, and later became a U.S. Customs Inspector
07:04 at the North Dakota-Canada border.
07:07 His work ethic, extreme pride in his job,
07:10 and impeccable character were examples for me,
07:13 and to this day, I strive to live up to them.
07:16 My mother, Angie Duffy, always encouraged all of us
07:18 to strive for careers to broaden our horizons.
07:22 She pushed all of us to be strong and independent.
07:25 I would like to point out a few areas of my career
07:27 that make me particularly qualified for this position.
07:31 I'm an employee of this agency,
07:32 I was an employee of this agency at its inception,
07:36 when the duties of the Assistant Secretary of Labor
07:38 for Labor Management Relations
07:40 were transferred into the new FLRA in 1979.
07:44 So I was there when the agency opened its doors,
07:47 and I was there celebrating with its first birthday cake.
07:50 After joining the newly established FLRA,
07:53 I worked in almost every component of the agency.
07:56 In a regional office,
07:57 I investigated unfair labor practice charges,
08:00 chaired representational hearings,
08:02 monitored federal union elections,
08:04 and conducted training for unions and agencies.
08:07 In the authority component,
08:08 I reviewed representational disputes,
08:11 administrative law judge decisions,
08:13 and drafted decisions for the authority members.
08:15 My last position before I left to attend law school
08:19 was a supervisory labor relations specialist
08:21 managing procedural motions for the agency.
08:25 The FLRA has played an important role
08:27 in shaping me into a professional employee.
08:30 I graduated from Antonin Scalia Law School
08:32 in Arlington in '86, and just 19 years later,
08:35 I would find myself back at the FLRA
08:38 serving as the Senate-confirmed general counsel.
08:41 Another 12 years later,
08:42 I was confirmed to serve as member of the authority
08:44 and designated by the president to serve as chairman.
08:47 My career keeps taking me back to my FLRA roots.
08:51 My time as chairman of the agency
08:54 provided me with unique insights
08:55 into the challenges facing the agency,
08:58 steering the agency through the unprecedented
09:00 COVID-19 public health challenge,
09:03 was one of the greatest challenges
09:05 and most significant accomplishments
09:07 of my career in public service.
09:09 As chairman, I also partnered with the federal mediation
09:12 and conciliation service to create a successful pilot program
09:16 for mediating negotiability disputes,
09:19 oversaw many elements of the agency's ongoing transition
09:22 from paper to electronic files,
09:25 including significant improvements in its e-filing
09:28 and case management systems.
09:30 And involved employees from all agency components
09:33 in innovative teams to implement the FLRA's strategic plan
09:38 and address opportunities for improvement
09:40 from the federal employee viewpoint survey.
09:43 As chairman and member, I have worked with my colleagues
09:46 to resolve unfair labor practice disputes,
09:49 determine the appropriateness
09:50 of units for labor representation,
09:53 adjudicated exceptions to arbitrators' awards,
09:56 and resolve legal issues relating to the duty to bargain.
09:59 I'm continually impressed with the FLRA's employees
10:03 who are some of the most dedicated public employees
10:05 I have ever met.
10:07 I believe my 35 years in the federal government,
10:09 20 years in the labor field,
10:11 will continue to serve me well in this agency
10:14 where we are commissioned to provide leadership
10:16 relating to matters under the federal service
10:18 labor management relations statute
10:20 and to effectively administer
10:22 the nine specific mandates of the statute.
10:25 I greatly appreciate the opportunity to appear before you
10:28 and I'm ready to answer your questions.
10:29 Thank you.
10:31 - Thanks very much, Ms. Kiko.
10:32 Ms. Wagner.
10:33 - Good morning, Chairman Blumenthal, ranking member Marshall.
10:40 I'd like to also thank the members of the committee
10:44 for the opportunity to speak with you today.
10:48 It is an honor to have been nominated by President Biden
10:50 to serve as a member
10:51 of the Federal Labor Relations Authority
10:53 and a privilege to appear before you
10:56 to seek Senate confirmation of my nomination.
10:59 I would also like to take a moment
11:01 to express my deep appreciation
11:03 to those without whom I would not be here today.
11:06 First, to my parents, George and Kay Wagner,
11:09 for their unfeeling love and support
11:11 during my childhood and throughout my life.
11:14 To my sisters, brother, and their families
11:16 for their friendship, humor, and encouragement.
11:20 To my friends and colleagues throughout my career
11:22 for their generous guidance
11:24 and inspiring dedication to the law.
11:27 Finally, to my dear family, my husband, Alan,
11:29 daughters, Katie and Nora, who are here today,
11:32 and Carlin in Texas, whose love has carried me
11:36 on this journey every step of the way.
11:38 In 1978, Congress enacted
11:42 the Federal Service Labor Management Relations Statute
11:44 as part of its comprehensive legislative reform
11:47 of the Federal Civil Service.
11:49 It established the FLRA as the agency responsible
11:52 for providing leadership
11:54 in federal sector labor management relations
11:57 through policies, guidance, and case law.
12:00 Although much has changed since its inception,
12:03 the FLRA's role remains as vital today
12:06 as it was over 45 years ago.
12:09 The public interest in ensuring
12:10 that federal workers and management fully engage
12:13 with each other to achieve the most effective
12:15 and efficient government remains clear.
12:18 I wholeheartedly support the authority's mission,
12:21 and if confirmed, will commit myself to ensuring
12:24 that the FLRA fulfills the critical purpose
12:27 that Congress entrusted to it.
12:29 In my decades-long career,
12:31 I have represented federal employees
12:33 as a labor union staff attorney.
12:35 I've worked as a neutral adjudicator
12:37 of federal employee claims,
12:39 and served at the highest levels of agency management
12:42 in the senior executive service.
12:44 If confirmed, I believe that my substantial experience
12:48 in addressing employment and labor law issues
12:50 from all sides will be valuable in carrying out my duties
12:54 as an FLRA member.
12:56 If confirmed, I also very much look forward to working again
12:59 with Chairman Susan Grunman and with member Colleen Kiko
13:02 to fulfill the FLRA's important mission
13:05 of providing robust leadership
13:07 in the federal labor management relations sphere.
13:10 I am humbled by and thank you for the opportunity
13:13 to be with you today, and I'm happy to answer any questions
13:16 that you may have.
13:18 Thank you.
13:19 - Thanks so much, Ms. Wagner.
13:20 Mr. Heidemann.
13:21 - Good morning.
13:25 Thank you, Chairman Blumenthal and Ranking Member Marshall.
13:28 I thank you for the opportunity
13:30 to appear before the committee today.
13:32 I'd like to acknowledge Senator Peters, Senator Paul,
13:36 and the other members of the committee as well.
13:38 I'm honored that President Biden has nominated me to serve
13:42 as the director of the Office of Government Ethics.
13:45 I'd like to recognize the support I've received
13:47 from the Office of Government Ethics at the State Department
13:51 and throughout the executive branch ethics community
13:53 with regard to my nomination, but also throughout my career
13:57 as an ethics official and in public service.
14:00 I would also like to recognize my family,
14:03 my wife, Carolyn, and my sons, Owen and Miles,
14:05 all of whom I love so very much
14:07 and who are with me this morning.
14:09 They motivate and inspire me
14:11 and fill me with pride every day.
14:14 I would also like to acknowledge the love and support
14:16 I've always received from my parents,
14:18 Jim and Molly Heidemaugh.
14:20 They both had careers in public service.
14:22 My mother is a teacher,
14:24 and my father working for the federal government.
14:27 Most importantly, they've always modeled
14:28 a high degree of integrity
14:31 and a commitment to helping others.
14:33 I'm fortunate to have a wonderful brother, John,
14:35 and I want to remember my brother, Philip,
14:37 who is no longer with us,
14:39 and recognize my extended family,
14:41 including my mother-in-law and father-in-law,
14:43 Pat and Cy Robbins.
14:46 OGE's mission has never been more critical,
14:49 as its work forms one part of a broader struggle
14:52 against the growing cynicism and distrust
14:54 that can undermine our democratic self-government.
14:57 The ethics laws promote integrity in government,
15:00 requiring that officials, decisions,
15:03 and use of public resources
15:05 must not be influenced by their personal financial interests,
15:09 their personal connections and relationships,
15:11 or by any desire to benefit themselves or others
15:14 rather than the national interest.
15:17 Beyond that, the ethics laws recognize
15:19 the importance of public trust,
15:21 and they are designed to bolster public confidence
15:23 in the integrity of the federal workforce.
15:26 There is good news.
15:28 Federal employees do have a strong sense of mission
15:30 and a desire to do things the right way.
15:33 There are outliers, of course,
15:35 which is why OGE supports the inspectors general,
15:38 the Department of Justice,
15:39 and others who investigate and pursue accountability
15:42 for ethics breaches.
15:44 But for the most part, ethics officials are in a position
15:47 to support federal employees
15:49 in achieving a goal they already share.
15:51 There is more good news.
15:53 Agency ethics programs are full of ethics officials
15:56 who are smart, earnest, and committed to this cause.
15:59 I know because I've worked with them.
16:02 I see OGE's role as providing overall direction,
16:05 but also partnering with agency ethics programs
16:07 and supporting their good work.
16:10 OGE itself is full of talented and committed officials.
16:14 In my years leading the State Department ethics program,
16:16 I have worked with many colleagues at OGE
16:19 on a wide range of topics.
16:21 If I'm fortunate enough to be confirmed,
16:23 I would be proud to be part of the OGE team.
16:25 While people are the strength
16:28 of the executive branch ethics program,
16:31 I'm open-eyed about the challenges.
16:34 The breakdown in trust that I mentioned earlier
16:36 increases scrutiny of federal employees
16:38 and the executive branch ethics program.
16:40 This means we must be ever more effective
16:43 in supporting employees
16:45 and deepening the culture of ethics compliance.
16:47 We must be clear in explaining what the law requires,
16:51 both to the federal workforce and the public.
16:54 We must support each other
16:56 in courageously providing sound ethics guidance,
16:59 even when it is unwelcome,
17:01 and in pursuing enforcement of the ethics laws
17:03 where necessary.
17:04 As the pace of change in our society
17:08 and economy picks up,
17:09 we must be nimble in updating outdated requirements
17:12 and in providing guidance
17:13 and an appropriate regulatory structure
17:16 to address emerging issues.
17:17 And of course, we must do all of this
17:20 with limited resources.
17:21 In his confirmation hearing,
17:23 the previous director of OGE
17:26 noted that OGE finds itself underfunded,
17:29 understaffed, and over-missioned.
17:31 That remains the case, both for OGE
17:33 and for many agency ethics programs.
17:36 And so, as we consider any changes
17:38 in the executive branch ethics program,
17:41 we must keep practicality in mind
17:43 and seek to leverage support
17:44 and adopt efficient approaches
17:46 to the greatest degree possible.
17:48 I'm open-minded about how best
17:51 to tackle these challenges.
17:53 I do believe that my experience
17:54 in managing a complex ethics program
17:57 at the State Department offers a valuable perspective.
18:00 If confirmed, I would also rely
18:02 on the strong foundation and expertise
18:04 already in place at OGE.
18:06 I would seek to cultivate
18:08 an even deeper sense of partnership
18:10 with the broader executive branch ethics community.
18:13 And I would welcome input
18:15 from outside government as well.
18:17 I know that many in Congress
18:19 have an interest in ethics reform.
18:21 I look forward to answering your questions today.
18:24 And I pledge to work with the Congress
18:26 on these issues if I am confirmed.
18:28 So, thank you again for considering my nomination.
18:31 - Thank you.
18:32 Thank you very much to all of you
18:33 for your opening statements.
18:34 I have a couple of preliminary questions
18:39 that are standard for all nominees.
18:42 And I think they're answerable by yes or no.
18:45 First, is there anything you are aware of
18:50 in your background that might present
18:52 a conflict of interest with the duties
18:54 of the office to which you have been nominated?
18:59 - No.
19:00 - No.
19:01 - No.
19:02 - Second, do you know of anything personal
19:04 or otherwise that would in any way
19:06 prevent you from fully and honorably
19:09 discharging the responsibilities of the office
19:13 to which you have been nominated?
19:14 - No.
19:15 - No.
19:16 - No.
19:17 - Finally, do you agree without reservation
19:19 to comply with any request, summons,
19:22 to appear and testify before any duly
19:25 constituted committee of Congress if you are confirmed?
19:29 - Yes.
19:29 - Yes.
19:30 - Yes.
19:31 - Thank you.
19:32 - I have just a couple more questions.
19:36 Maybe I can ask Ms. Kiko and Ms. Wagner.
19:39 Could you speak to the challenges
19:44 that the FLRI experiences when faced
19:50 with a flat budget as it has been for many years?
19:55 Go ahead.
19:58 - Yes, thank you for that question.
20:00 Yes, the Federal Labor Relations Authority
20:02 has been flat funded for quite a few years.
20:06 And when that happens, we have approximately
20:08 80% of our budget is personnel.
20:11 And when that happens, you have to look at new ways
20:15 to try and figure out how to meet the budgets.
20:17 And generally, it's difficult.
20:20 So in the past, what we have had to do
20:23 is to close some regional offices down
20:25 and in an effort to save the people,
20:27 we decided to get rid of some of the space.
20:30 Just recently, the Federal Labor Relations Authority
20:32 in the headquarters office had two floors
20:35 in their building and now we've consolidated to one floor.
20:38 And so we're trying to do what we can
20:41 to live within our budget, but it is challenging,
20:45 not only to get the cases done,
20:47 but also to continue to serve our customers.
20:50 That should answer your question.
20:53 - Ms. Wagner, I don't know whether you have any thoughts
20:55 on that topic.
20:57 - Senator Blumenthal, I have not had the privilege
21:01 of being at the FLRA and so I don't really have
21:05 an insider's view in terms of the particular
21:07 internal challenges that the authority might be facing.
21:11 But I think the budget for the,
21:14 a flatline budget is difficult when an agency
21:19 is responsible for producing high quality,
21:24 efficient adjudications of caseloads
21:27 that continue to go up.
21:29 So if confirmed, I would certainly do whatever I can
21:32 to support the efforts that I believe Chairman Grumman
21:36 has already undertaken with the other members
21:39 of the authority to pursue an enhanced budget
21:44 for the future.
21:45 - Thank you.
21:46 Mr. Heidemann, first of all,
21:48 I hope I'm pronouncing your name correctly.
21:50 - Perfect, thank you.
21:53 - I know you've had experience at the Department of State
21:56 in this kind of ethics review and enforcement.
22:00 Would you anticipate the challenges or the issues
22:05 are the same now in this present position
22:09 for which you've been nominated as they were
22:11 at the Department of State?
22:12 - Thank you for the question, Senator.
22:15 I think in some ways, one of the nice features
22:21 of working at the State Department is the breadth
22:23 of the agency's mission and the breadth
22:25 of the ethics issues we have the opportunity to encounter.
22:29 But I do think that the, obviously the work of OGE
22:35 is at a completely different scale.
22:37 And it's important to recognize just how diverse
22:40 and varied agencies, their missions, their workforces,
22:44 the ethics challenges they face are.
22:49 So while I think I have solid preparation,
22:52 there will also be a chance to learn
22:56 and it will be important to be open-minded
22:58 about how the executive branch ethics program as a whole,
23:02 but also how specific agencies should target
23:05 and tailor their efforts to uphold integrity
23:08 to the highest degree possible.
23:09 - And your service has been non-partisan
23:13 over these years, correct?
23:15 - Absolutely.
23:16 Partisanship never enters into my work.
23:18 I've been proud to serve in the federal government
23:22 and as head of the ethics office
23:24 throughout multiple administrations of different parties.
23:27 And that would continue to be my approach.
23:30 - Thank you.
23:31 I'll turn to Senator Marshall.
23:33 - Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman.
23:35 I'm not as familiar, perhaps, with the jobs
23:41 that you all have, the departments that you represent
23:44 as a fairly new senator.
23:47 I'd like for you to just take one or two minutes each
23:50 and tell me, in you all's case, Ms. Wagner and Ms. Kiko,
23:54 what is the role of the FLRA?
23:57 What is your job?
23:58 What is your purpose?
24:00 And think it like you're talking
24:01 to a high school government class.
24:03 Dumb it down to that level for me.
24:05 So, Ms. Wagner.
24:06 - Thank you, Senator Marshall.
24:10 The role of the FLRA is one that Congress established
24:16 to provide leadership in the area
24:19 of federal labor relations programs
24:21 throughout the executive branch.
24:24 It does this by issuing policies, guidance,
24:28 but primarily through ruling on cases that come before it.
24:33 So, cases such as unfair labor practice cases,
24:37 negotiability appeals,
24:39 cases that Member Kiko alluded to in her opening statement.
24:42 And it's through this, the development of case law
24:47 that allows the sort of predictability
24:51 to come into the federal labor relations programs
24:55 throughout the government that I think promotes,
24:58 certainly Congress has found,
24:59 but I do think my experience has seen
25:02 that it promotes efficiency and effective government.
25:05 - Okay.
25:06 Ms. Kiko, would you follow up?
25:07 I know it's the same department,
25:08 but you've had some more experience, so.
25:12 - Well, I'll go backwards just a little bit.
25:13 Excuse me, I have a bit of a cold.
25:15 That collective bargaining was something new
25:18 in the federal government.
25:20 So, back, there was an executive order 10988
25:23 that was originally established collective bargaining
25:26 in the federal government.
25:28 Then that executive order was moved
25:29 to executive order 11491,
25:32 which was also allowing collective bargaining
25:34 in the federal government.
25:35 And it was in 1978 when a statute was finally created
25:40 to allow collective bargaining in the federal government.
25:43 And so, consistent with Anne Wagner's response,
25:47 we are providing leadership and guidance
25:49 to matters relating to the statute.
25:52 We issue decisions based on unfair labor practices
25:56 that might be occurring in the agencies,
25:58 between unions and agencies in the federal government.
26:02 We also determine the appropriateness of units
26:05 as to who can be consolidated into a unit
26:07 to be represented by a union.
26:10 We also resolve duty to bargain issues.
26:13 So, if they're sitting at the bargaining table
26:14 trying to figure out,
26:16 is this particular language negotiable or not,
26:19 we will make a ruling on that.
26:21 And we would also, when there are grievances
26:23 that go on in the agencies,
26:25 between the unions and the agencies,
26:27 as to something that might be wrong,
26:30 those grievances can be then taken to an arbitrator.
26:33 And arbitration awards can come to us
26:36 on exceptions to arbitration awards.
26:38 For example, if the arbitrator's award
26:40 was contrary to law or something to that effect.
26:43 We also, as our responsibility,
26:45 we must train the parties
26:47 to make sure they understand the statute.
26:48 And so, the FLRA has been very forefront
26:51 in providing training to the parties
26:54 on what the statute says and how it acts.
26:57 - Thank you.
26:58 Mr. Hoytman, kind of the same question.
27:00 What is the OGE?
27:01 What is your purpose?
27:03 - Thank you for the question, Senator.
27:05 So, OGE's mission is to help and support federal employees
27:10 in avoiding conflicts of interest,
27:12 in meeting their own obligations
27:14 under the federal ethics laws and regulations,
27:17 and in general, in acting and carrying out their duties
27:21 as public servants with a high degree of integrity.
27:23 By extension, the hope is to cultivate public trust
27:27 in the integrity of the federal workforce as well.
27:31 OGE does this first by providing overall direction
27:36 and leadership for the executive branch ethics program,
27:39 issuing regulations, issuing interpretive guidance,
27:43 issuing kind of program,
27:45 establishing programs and procedures.
27:47 It's important to recognize
27:49 that much of the executive branch ethics work
27:53 is decentralized.
27:54 Each agency has its own ethics program.
27:58 It's those agency ethics programs
28:00 that are closest to and in most direct contact
28:03 with federal workers.
28:05 And so, OGE provides guidance and support
28:08 to those agency ethics programs,
28:10 tries to hold them to a high standard as well,
28:15 monitoring their work,
28:17 evaluating whether they are complying
28:19 with programmatic requirements,
28:21 and generally, sort of upholding the importance
28:24 of acting with courage when necessary
28:28 and implementing a sound program.
28:30 Beyond that, OGE has a role in explaining ethics laws
28:35 to the public as well.
28:38 And obviously, as director,
28:42 I personally would have a role
28:44 in supporting the team at OGE
28:47 just as a manager of the agency.
28:49 - So I'm convinced that organizations
28:50 either get better or worse, they never stay the same.
28:53 And I think priorities is so very important,
28:57 whether it's a finite amount of financial resources
29:01 or otherwise.
29:03 Just take each of you take a minute or less
29:05 and tell me what top priorities would be if confirmed.
29:08 Mr. Hoytman, we'll start with you this time.
29:10 Your priorities, please.
29:12 - Thank you, Senator.
29:13 So the first priority, I would say,
29:16 one thing to step back and recognize
29:20 is that OGE experiences a surge in its work
29:23 every four years or so following a presidential election
29:26 because one of its core functions
29:29 that it has a direct implementing role in
29:30 is the vetting of nominees,
29:33 helping any administration kind of staff up
29:36 important leadership positions,
29:38 supporting the Senate's work in evaluating those nominees.
29:42 And so I know that OGE already is focused on this
29:45 as they are every four years
29:47 and is undertaking a lot of work to prepare
29:50 for that surge in nominee vetting.
29:52 I would seek to support that.
29:53 That has to be priority one
29:55 because that will dominate the next year.
29:58 Beyond that, I would seek to
30:00 spend some time on relationship building,
30:06 both with agency ethics officials,
30:09 with department leadership,
30:12 where that would be useful,
30:15 and with the constituencies that are relevant
30:17 for the ethics community and the work that we do.
30:21 Those would be my first priorities.
30:22 - Thank you.
30:23 Senator, what would be your priorities?
30:26 - Senator, my priorities would be to deal with
30:29 the increased caseload that the authority is facing
30:33 with the limited resources that we have, that it has,
30:37 and I think to maximize technology to the extent possible
30:42 to achieve efficiencies in productivity
30:47 and addressing the caseload in a fair and efficient way.
30:53 Beyond that, my experience at OSC
30:56 has certainly instilled in me the idea that
31:00 training and education with regard to employee
31:04 and labor organization, agency management rights
31:07 and responsibilities could be a vital tool
31:10 to preventing labor disputes arising
31:14 in the federal sector arena,
31:16 and I think that preventing labor disputes
31:19 is as important as resolving them once they occur.
31:22 So I would hope to make that one of my priorities.
31:26 - Thank you.
31:26 Ms. Kiko, what would be your priorities?
31:29 - Yes, Senator.
31:29 I think first of all, we have a job to do,
31:32 and that is to issue decisions that come before us,
31:36 and we want to do that in an efficient way as we can.
31:40 I'd also want to support the chairman
31:41 in any activities and priorities that she might have
31:44 in attempting to manage our flat budgets,
31:48 and I'd also like to continue the good work of the FLRA
31:51 in its training programs as it continues to offer
31:55 a numerous number of training courses and YouTube videos
31:59 and that sort of thing to assist the stakeholders
32:02 in understanding our statute and learning how to
32:05 solve some of their disputes on their own
32:07 without necessarily having to come to us.
32:09 - Thank you so much.
32:10 - That's good to be back.
32:14 Thank you, Senator Marshall.
32:15 I'd also like to thank Senator Blumenthal
32:18 for starting off this hearing with you, Senator Marshall.
32:20 Thank you for kicking it off.
32:22 It's a busy day today.
32:23 We're running around, which is why people will be coming
32:26 and going as we go forward,
32:28 but I want to welcome each of our nominees.
32:29 Thank you for being here, and congratulations
32:32 to each of you on these nominations
32:34 and your willingness to do this important work.
32:37 Ms. Kiko, I'll start with you.
32:40 After you became chairman of the FLRA in 2017,
32:45 employee morale at the agency dropped significantly.
32:49 Employee engagement and satisfaction scores
32:52 based on the annual federal employee viewpoint survey
32:55 fell to their lowest levels in a decade
32:59 during your first two years as chair.
33:01 So my question for you is,
33:04 how did you respond to the drop in morale
33:06 and what changes did you make to your management approach
33:09 and how would you see things moving forward?
33:11 - Thank you, Chairman Peters, and I appreciate the question.
33:17 Certainly, we had some challenges
33:19 when I first became chairman, and being chairman,
33:23 you have to make some very difficult decisions,
33:25 and a lot of that had to do with our flat budgeting,
33:27 and so we had to close two regional offices,
33:30 and that was a very big, difficult time for our agency.
33:33 And I spent an awful lot of time identifying
33:39 what some of the concerns were
33:40 in the federal employee viewpoint survey,
33:42 and I tacked them one by one to make sure
33:45 that each of the employees' concerns
33:47 were addressed under the FEVS.
33:49 At the same time that the FEVS reports were coming out,
33:53 we were in the middle of building
33:55 a new strategic plan for the agency,
33:57 and as such, I created teams so that every employee
34:01 in the agency was able to be involved
34:02 in building that strategic plan,
34:05 hoping that every aspect of their concerns
34:08 were addressed in the strategic plan,
34:11 and we had many different teams,
34:13 employee engagement teams,
34:15 performance accountability teams,
34:17 digest teams, health and wellness teams,
34:19 everything to attempt to address
34:21 some of the concerns that the employees had.
34:24 And based on a lot of those issues that we did,
34:27 the other issue that I recognized
34:30 is that there had not been a general counsel
34:32 in the general counsel's office for quite some time,
34:35 and so I took the opportunity to fill that position
34:39 so that there would be some leadership
34:41 in the general counsel's office.
34:42 I think as a result of a lot of those efforts,
34:47 our scores did rise 20 points
34:50 while I was chairman in 2020,
34:52 so I take,
34:53 I believe that the efforts that we made
34:57 made a difference in attempting to raise those scores.
34:59 - Well, are you committed to taking
35:04 the federal employee viewpoint survey results
35:07 into account as you move forward
35:11 and prioritizing employee engagement morale at the FLRA?
35:15 - Absolutely. - Give me a sense of
35:17 how you will do that.
35:18 - Yes, absolutely.
35:19 It's a very important
35:20 survey of employees' viewpoints,
35:24 and it's really important to understand
35:25 where people are feeling and how they are,
35:28 an engaged employee is an excellent employee,
35:30 and we wanna make sure that that's
35:32 at the highest priority, absolutely.
35:34 - Okay, very well.
35:37 - Mr. Heideman, I worked with Senator Grassley
35:41 on the Executive Branch Accountability
35:43 and Transparency Act,
35:45 which would make it easier for the public
35:46 to access the ethics disclosures of government officials.
35:51 This kind of transparency, I think, is absolutely vital
35:54 so the public can hold folks accountable.
35:58 So my question for you, sir, is if confirmed,
36:00 how will you work to make transparency a priority
36:03 and increase public access
36:05 to this important ethics information?
36:08 - Thank you, Chairman Peters.
36:11 I, too, believe in the value of transparency
36:15 and access to information about our most senior officials
36:19 and information that allows the public
36:21 to evaluate decisions that the government is making.
36:24 So in terms of how I would prioritize
36:28 that issue,
36:31 I would say it would be built into
36:33 kind of everything that we do at OGE.
36:35 OGE already has a track record
36:40 of considering sort of ways it can use
36:43 its website, its platform,
36:47 to sort of affirmatively make some information
36:51 available to the public in an easier way,
36:54 less onerous way.
36:55 And I would say we would continually evaluate,
36:58 are there additional categories of information
37:00 in OGE's custody and control?
37:03 And especially, is there information about OGE's own
37:06 decision-making priorities, et cetera,
37:09 that we could explain our own work better to the public?
37:11 - Mr. Adewale, as you know,
37:14 one of OGE's key responsibilities
37:17 is conducting oversight of agency ethics programs
37:20 all across the government.
37:22 So my question for you is,
37:23 how are you preparing to make this transition
37:25 from serving as an agency ethics official
37:28 to actually one conducting rigorous oversight
37:31 of agency ethics officials across the government?
37:35 - Thank you.
37:37 That role in monitoring the work of agency ethics programs,
37:42 holding them to a high standard,
37:44 is a core part of OGE's mission.
37:47 That's one I'm committed to.
37:49 I think that having the perspective
37:51 of coming from an agency and knowing what it's like
37:53 to administer an ethics program day in, day out,
37:57 will offer some valuable perspective.
37:59 And I'd say there are kind of two aspects.
38:04 One is that having open communication
38:09 and a strong relationship with the agency ethics programs
38:14 actually is a tool for effective monitoring
38:16 and compliance work as well.
38:18 OGE needs to understand the agency ethics programs,
38:22 the challenges they're facing,
38:25 the constraints they operate under,
38:27 and how they work to evaluate
38:28 whether they are doing that work effectively or not.
38:32 Beyond that, it's important for the director of OGE
38:35 and OGE as a whole to hold agencies to a high standard.
38:39 And so I need to be in a position to communicate that.
38:44 If we want agencies to have the courage
38:46 to offer firm ethics guidance,
38:51 even in unwelcome circumstances,
38:53 to sort of make the demand for program support
38:57 that they need, then they need to know
39:00 that that's a standard and an expectation we have
39:02 and that we're there to support them as well.
39:05 - Great, thank you.
39:06 Senator Hawley, you're recognized for your questions.
39:09 - Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
39:10 Thanks to the nominees for being here.
39:12 Mr. Hydem, if I could just start with you.
39:14 You just said that you had experience
39:16 administering an agency ethics program.
39:18 You're at the State Department right now, is that right?
39:21 - Yes, that's right, Senator.
39:21 - And among other things,
39:22 you've been the legal advisor
39:24 for ethics and financial disclosures.
39:26 - Yes, I'm the assistant legal advisor
39:28 for ethics and financial disclosure,
39:30 which is the ethics office for the State Department.
39:32 - Right, okay, very good.
39:33 Are you familiar, have you been tracking
39:35 what's going on with the Energy Department
39:37 when it comes to ethics, financial disclosures,
39:39 and stock trading?
39:41 Are you familiar, do you know what I'm talking about?
39:42 - I know what you're talking about, Senator.
39:44 I obviously haven't been involved
39:46 and don't have a depth of knowledge.
39:48 - Well, let me give you just a little flavor of it.
39:50 So last year, the Wall Street Journal reported
39:53 that hundreds of Energy Department officials
39:55 hold stocks related to the agency's work
39:58 despite repeated warnings
40:01 that there were conflicts of interest here.
40:02 How does that strike you?
40:04 Good practice?
40:06 - Well, Senator, I guess a couple of observations.
40:09 Obviously, I can't speak to the specific facts
40:12 of any employee at the Department of Energy
40:14 or guidance that the Energy Ethics Program has provided.
40:19 But this relates to the question Chair Peters asked.
40:23 I would say it's important for OGE to be in a position
40:27 to evaluate the work of any agency ethics program
40:30 and to make clear that we hold them to a high standard
40:34 and want them to hold their employees to a high standard
40:37 and follow through, right?
40:38 It's not just explaining the rules,
40:41 it's communicating them and doing what you can
40:43 to build a culture of ethics.
40:45 Well, ultimately, it's each employee's responsibility
40:48 to abide by the ethics laws,
40:49 but we have high expectations for our ethics program as well.
40:54 - You have high expectations,
40:55 and the public, frankly, has high expectations
40:57 for public officials.
40:58 And I just have to tell you,
40:59 I mean, this is a government-wide problem.
41:01 It's a problem in this Congress.
41:03 You've got elected officials, members of this Congress,
41:07 who are trading stock and making profits.
41:10 The public looks at this and they say,
41:12 "Oh my gosh, how do these people manage to do it?"
41:15 I mean, it is unbelievable.
41:17 They get elected to Congress
41:18 and they become the most savvy stock market traders
41:22 in the world.
41:23 It's amazing.
41:24 There are whole websites devoted
41:26 to tracking members of Congress' stock trades.
41:28 It's incredible.
41:29 I mean, it's absolutely incredible,
41:31 which is why I, again, call on this Congress,
41:34 as I have for years now,
41:35 to take action to ban stock trading
41:38 and stock holding by members of Congress.
41:40 But it's not just in Congress,
41:41 it's in the executive branch.
41:43 And I can just tell you,
41:44 when you have hundreds of members of the Energy Department
41:47 and other executive branch agencies
41:50 who hold stocks in companies that they supposedly regulate,
41:55 that is incredibly destructive of public trust.
41:59 Yesterday, I talked to the secretary
42:01 of the Department of Energy.
42:02 She has held stock.
42:03 She has violated,
42:04 she personally has violated the Stock Act
42:07 nine separate times.
42:09 That was before she misled the United States Senate
42:14 by saying she no longer held any individual stocks.
42:17 She told us she had sold all of them.
42:18 Turns out that was false.
42:19 She had not sold them.
42:20 It turns out she still held individual stocks,
42:22 including stocks her department regulates.
42:26 In companies her department regulates.
42:27 I mean, this is outrageous.
42:29 It's absolutely outrageous, and it's endemic.
42:32 It's endemic.
42:33 So my message to you is,
42:34 I hope that if you are confirmed,
42:36 that you will be absolutely a bulldog
42:39 about going after this
42:40 and telling executive branch officials,
42:42 listen, you can't own stocks in companies that you regulate.
42:45 We can't allow hundreds of government officials
42:49 to continue to willfully violate the law that this,
42:53 and we ought to update the law, by the way.
42:54 I mean, there's a simple solution to this.
42:56 We ought to just ban executive officials
42:58 at a leadership level from owning individual stocks.
43:00 I mean, that would do it.
43:02 But we at least should be complying
43:05 with the laws on the books.
43:06 And I just think it is outrageous,
43:08 outrageous that executive branch officials,
43:11 and I'm sure this goes on, by the way,
43:12 in all administrations,
43:14 but it is outrageous that these people
43:16 are trading stock in companies that they regulate.
43:19 I mean, it raises the question,
43:21 who is running the department?
43:22 Is it the corporations?
43:24 Whose stock that these officers are so attentive to?
43:28 So my point in this, Mr. Hyde,
43:30 is I hope that you will be very firm in this,
43:34 and I hope that if you are confirmed,
43:35 you will work to make sure
43:38 that executive branch officials,
43:39 number one, understand the law,
43:41 but number two, comply with the law
43:42 and don't willfully violate it over and over and over.
43:47 And all I can say is when you have
43:48 the head of a department, the head of an agency,
43:50 the head of the energy department,
43:52 violating the Stock Act nine separate times
43:55 and continuing to frankly lie about it to Congress,
43:59 that is a big, big problem, a big, big problem.
44:02 In my few remaining moments here,
44:05 let me shift gears.
44:05 Ms. Wagner, let me ask you
44:07 from a federal labor relations point of view,
44:10 when it comes to labor contracting
44:14 within the federal government,
44:16 this committee recently passed,
44:18 I'm delighted to say unanimously,
44:22 passed my legislation along with Senator Booker
44:24 that would make it harder for the federal government,
44:26 make it impossible for the federal government
44:28 to contract with companies that have child labor
44:32 in their supply chain.
44:33 I mean, does that sound like a good thing to ban to you?
44:36 I mean, to stop the use of child labor
44:38 in federal contracting?
44:39 - Yes, Senator, it does.
44:41 - I'm glad to hear that.
44:42 This is a very serious issue.
44:43 Since 2018, the Labor Department has seen a 70% increase
44:48 in children being illegally employed by companies.
44:51 The New York Times has published reports
44:52 about well-known brands such as Tyson Foods,
44:55 who have done business in many states, including mine,
44:58 that have illegal child labor running rampant
45:00 in their facilities.
45:01 And a lot of these companies get contracts,
45:03 as it relates to you,
45:04 contracts with the federal government.
45:05 And so they're bidding on, getting federal contracts,
45:09 they're getting federal money,
45:10 and yet they've got child labor in their supply chain.
45:12 So I'm glad to hear you say that you are opposed to this.
45:16 I hope this legislation will soon become law,
45:19 and I hope that you'll support efforts
45:22 to root out any kind of child labor in federal contracting,
45:27 in federal government employment practices
45:30 with these independent contractors.
45:32 I mean, do I have your commitment that you would do that?
45:35 - Senator Hawley, I share your outrage at that practice.
45:40 I would have to note that the FLRA
45:44 is, regulates in the sphere of labor unions
45:48 that represent federal employees,
45:50 not federal contractor employees.
45:53 So I'm not sure the scope of the FLRA's authority
45:57 to intercede in that practice to address it.
46:01 I suspect that's the Department of Labor.
46:03 - But you support the effort, you support this legislation,
46:07 you support the effort to root out child labor
46:09 from federal contracting, federal government, fantastic.
46:13 My time's expired, and I know there are other senators
46:15 who wanna ask questions.
46:16 So thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
46:18 - Thank you, Senator Hawley.
46:19 Senator Rosen, you're recognized for your questions.
46:21 - Well, thank you, Chairman Peters.
46:23 I really appreciate you holding this hearing,
46:25 and I wanna thank the nominees for being here
46:27 and for testifying today.
46:29 And so, Mr. Haitima, we're gonna continue with you,
46:33 because current law allows former members of Congress
46:36 who have committed a felony related to their time in office
46:39 to keep their taxpayer-funded pensions
46:42 even after a conviction.
46:45 So they must forfeit this government benefit
46:47 only after exhausting all their appeals,
46:50 which can drag the process on clearly for years
46:52 and provide a windfall of hundreds of thousands of dollars
46:55 to convicted felons.
46:57 And so I think it's unacceptable that corrupt officials,
47:00 government officials, can continue to benefit
47:03 off the back of taxpayers.
47:05 That's why last year I introduced the No Corruption Act.
47:08 It's bipartisan legislation with Senator Scott, Rick Scott,
47:12 to close this loophole by barring members of Congress
47:14 who are convicted of felonies
47:16 related to their official duties
47:18 from collecting taxpayer-funded pensions.
47:21 After advancing this through committee,
47:22 our bill unanimously passed the Senate.
47:25 So, Mr. Haitima, confirm, would you be supportive
47:27 of a similar policy for a member of the president's cabinet
47:31 or other high-ranking executive branch officials
47:33 convicted of felonies related to their time in office?
47:38 -Thank you, Senator, for the question.
47:41 The specifics of that issue are one
47:44 that I would need to study more and consider,
47:46 but I will say that while OGE,
47:49 the Office of Government Ethics' primary role
47:52 is to support ethics officials
47:54 in complying with their ethics obligations in the first place,
47:57 there is an important accountability,
48:01 and penalties, where necessary,
48:04 for violations of the ethics obligations
48:06 are critical, as well.
48:08 And if I'm confirmed as director of OGE,
48:10 I'm committed to supporting accountability efforts,
48:13 investigations, and so forth, whether by inspectors general,
48:18 the Department of Justice, whoever it may be.
48:20 -Thank you.
48:21 And I'm going to continue with you, also,
48:24 because the Office of Government Ethics,
48:26 it lacks the statutory authority
48:28 to enforce, sometimes, these ethics violations.
48:31 So, current law only allows OGE to make recommendations
48:35 to an agency when one of its employees
48:37 is alleged to have violated ethics laws.
48:40 And should the agency in question ignore
48:42 or reject the recommendation of OGE,
48:44 OGE, you're only able to inform the president
48:47 of the agency's actions,
48:49 not overrule them or make a further recommendation.
48:52 So, Mr. Haitima, how does this lack of enforcement authority
48:56 limit OGE's ability to maintain the integrity
48:59 of the executive branch?
49:01 And if confirmed, would you like to see OGE
49:03 receive additional authority
49:05 so it could take disciplinary actions against wrongdoers?
49:09 -Thank you for that question, as well, Senator.
49:13 I think that, as I mentioned in my previous answer,
49:19 two sides of the coin are both important.
49:21 OGE's fundamental role is supporting compliance
49:26 up front, cultivating a culture of compliance
49:29 among the federal workforce,
49:31 including our most senior officials,
49:34 and supporting them in meeting their ethics obligations.
49:38 At the same time, supporting appropriate accountability
49:41 is important.
49:42 I will say that, in my experience
49:45 in providing guidance to Cabinet officials,
49:49 brand-new employees, people who are considering
49:51 joining the State Department, employees at all levels,
49:55 it has been effective and helpful
49:58 to have that role as advisor,
50:01 someone who's there to support them,
50:02 and employees are genuinely appreciative.
50:05 So I do think that a distinction between guidance and advice
50:09 on the one hand and enforcement on the other,
50:12 in most cases, is helpful and useful.
50:15 Whether there are specific authorities
50:17 that would benefit OGE in instances
50:20 where it has identified a violation
50:24 of the ethics regulations,
50:26 or something that it considers to pose
50:28 an unacceptable risk of a conflict,
50:30 for example, something like that,
50:32 it would need to consider and appreciate
50:34 the opportunity to consult further if confirmed.
50:38 I do think that in most cases,
50:43 OGE's work in directing agencies
50:45 to take appropriate action is effective.
50:49 There can be cases at the highest profile,
50:53 and most often where agencies or the administration
50:57 refuses to take action.
50:59 In those cases, I think what's important for OGE
51:02 is to be clear and transparent about its position,
51:05 its understanding of the appropriate application of the law,
51:08 so the public can understand what OGE is doing
51:11 and kind of where it stands in those cases.
51:14 - Well, thank you.
51:14 I look forward to working with you on that,
51:16 because advising and guiding, that's great,
51:20 but if people know that there's no consequence,
51:23 then that could lead to more significant problems.
51:27 And we talk about a culture
51:29 of transparency and accountability.
51:31 Transparency plays that critical role
51:34 in increasing public trust in the federal government.
51:36 So that's where I'm leading with all of this.
51:38 So one of the Office of Government Ethics'
51:41 foremost responsibility is to ensure
51:43 that ethics documents, like disclosure forms,
51:46 are readily available to and accessible
51:49 for the general public.
51:50 So how do you plan to ensure that executive agencies
51:54 increase visibility of their own ethics documents,
51:57 particularly when you can't compel them to do so,
52:00 and would it be helpful for you
52:02 to be able to compel them to do that?
52:04 - Thank you, Senator.
52:07 Well, OGE does have authority
52:09 to establish programmatic requirements
52:11 for agency ethics programs,
52:13 and there are provisions in the ethics regulations
52:18 for public access to public financial disclosure reports.
52:23 So in some ways, this is a space
52:25 where OGE has current authority already.
52:28 I am committed to always considering,
52:32 with regard to any category of documents,
52:35 either new or existing,
52:37 does it serve the public interest
52:39 to make information proactively available,
52:41 and how can we build that
52:44 into a normal standard operating procedure.
52:48 I will say that, in my mind,
52:52 information as director of OGE,
52:55 information about OGE's own programs,
52:58 the guidance that it's providing,
53:01 its own activities,
53:02 transparency about that would be critically important.
53:05 Beyond that, when we come to information
53:08 about our public officials,
53:10 that too can play an important role
53:12 in informing the public
53:15 and providing confidence
53:17 that those officials don't have conflicts of interest.
53:20 And I would say that the,
53:21 and there's a little bit of a spectrum here, right,
53:24 where information about our most senior officials,
53:27 our political appointees,
53:29 those who have a broad range of discretion and authority
53:32 is most important,
53:34 while also taking into account
53:36 either programmatic limitations or constraints
53:39 or privacy interests for other federal employees.
53:43 - Thank you very much.
53:44 Thank you, Mr. Chair.
53:45 (computer mouse clicking)
53:47 - Thank you, Senator Rosen.
53:48 Well, I wanna thank our nominees once again
53:51 for being with us here today
53:54 and your willingness to serve
53:56 in these very important positions.
53:58 The nominees have filed responses
54:00 to biographical and financial questionnaires,
54:04 and without objection,
54:05 this information will be made part of the hearing record,
54:08 with the exception of financial data,
54:11 which is on file and available for public inspection
54:14 at the committee offices.
54:16 The hearing record will remain open till 12 p.m. tomorrow,
54:19 April 18th, for the submission of statements
54:22 and questions for the record.
54:24 This hearing is now adjourned.
54:26 (gavel banging)
54:29 [BLANK_AUDIO]