Remembering Sunderland legend Charlie Hurley after The King's sad passing with Rob Mason, Phil Smith and James Copley
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00:00 [MUSIC]
00:10 Hello, welcome to the Raw podcast, Sad Circumstances,
00:23 in which we join you today after the sad passing of Sunderland legend,
00:27 Charlie Hurley, which was announced Thursday 25th of April.
00:32 I'm joined today, it's a privilege to be joined by club historian,
00:36 Robert Mason.
00:37 Rob, how are you doing?
00:38 >> I'm fine, thank you.
00:40 Obviously, like everybody else,
00:41 very sad this week at the death of the player of the century.
00:45 But yeah, in general, absolutely fine.
00:47 I'll be even better if someone can win at Watford tomorrow.
00:50 >> Absolutely, and I'm also joined by the Echoes chief football writer, Phil Smith.
00:55 Phil, sad news yesterday.
00:58 >> Yeah, really sad news, but really moving as well to see sort of how the news
01:02 of Charlie's death was sort of received and the tributes I found.
01:07 Both moving and quite inspiring as well, really, for someone who,
01:12 his career ended quite a long time ago, but to still be remembered so
01:16 vividly by so many people and what a legacy in the game Charlie Hurley had.
01:21 Not just at Sunderland either, at Millwall, at Ireland, his management career.
01:27 Really sad, but also I thought really inspiring and really moving to see what
01:30 an impression he made on so many people as a footballer and a man as well.
01:34 >> Absolutely, and Rob, Phil mentions it there, but
01:38 it's testament to his legend, really, isn't it?
01:41 The fact that me and Phil are both around the 30 age mark.
01:45 And one of the first things we learned about Sunderland was that Charlie Hurley
01:49 was the greatest centre half the world had ever seen.
01:51 And there'll be people younger than us that know that story, know that chant,
01:54 know of his name.
01:55 And it's remarkable, really, in the modern world that his legend lives on.
01:59 >> Of course, now, because you two lads are big Sunderland supporters and
02:04 because you follow Sunderland, you've got a much, much,
02:07 much better knowledge of Sunderland than most people.
02:11 But if you walk around your friends in and around Sunderland of your age,
02:17 who are maybe not so football orientated, and said to them,
02:22 name me the Sunderland players from before your lifetime that you can think of.
02:27 Well, they've come up with players from the 73 cup team.
02:29 They've probably come up with Len Shackleton.
02:31 They've probably come up with Rach Carter.
02:33 They've come up with Charlie Hurley.
02:35 After that, it depends on your knowledge of football as to whether you start talking
02:39 about other greats who are perhaps not so well remembered as they should be,
02:43 like say Bobby Gurney or Charlie Buchan, or players from either further past.
02:47 Ted Doig, for instance,
02:48 one of only two men to win four championship medals at Sunderland.
02:52 And I think if you asked 100 Sunderland supporters in a stadium alike next week at
02:56 the Sheffield World Game, who's Jamie Miller?
02:59 Not many people would probably be able to tell you, but he is the other man to win
03:03 four championship medals at Sunderland, and the first of only four men to score
03:06 a goal, to score five goals in a game for Sunderland.
03:09 So what we're talking about there is the true legends of the football club.
03:15 But Charlie is absolutely one of them, quite rightly so, and
03:19 is one that people will remember through football folklore.
03:22 Because even for people of your age, you've had those stories passed down to you
03:27 by your family, by your friends.
03:30 Everybody does know that Charlie Hurley is indeed the greatest centre half
03:34 the world has ever seen.
03:35 And that's why he's in football folklore.
03:38 And on top of that, I would say the thing about Charlie, and in my experience
03:43 of the people I've had the privilege to know, the really, really, really true greats,
03:49 Bobby Gurney, Jimmy Montgomery, Niall Quinn, Charlie Hurley,
03:54 with what those people have all got in common is every single one of them
03:59 was as good off the pitch as they were on it.
04:03 Absolutely.
04:04 We'll come to Charlie's career and life in a second,
04:07 but I wanted to talk a little bit about Martin O'Neill,
04:10 who posted a tribute to Charlie Hurley on social media.
04:13 I think he was also on BBC Radio Newcastle's talk Sport last night.
04:17 And again, that's testament to the reach that Charlie Hurley had,
04:21 that it was him that inspired a young Martin O'Neill to support Sunderland,
04:25 started his journey through football two-time European Cup winner,
04:28 managed Aston Villa, managed Sunderland.
04:31 And it all started with Charlie Hurley.
04:33 It's incredible the power that man had in terms of his football and ability
04:37 and how it inspired people, not just of Martin O'Neill's age,
04:40 but of our age as well.
04:42 Yeah, there's some brilliant passages in Martin O'Neill's autobiography,
04:47 which he released last year.
04:48 I think it's called On Days Like These, which I assume is a Van Morrison nod.
04:51 I'm not 100% sure, but I would make a fair guess that I think it is.
04:56 And actually, it was interesting because I got that book because I was interested
04:59 to know Martin speaking about his time as manager of Sunderland.
05:04 And he did talk about that.
05:05 But the passages that really stuck with me actually from that book
05:07 were as Martin described his childhood at boarding school
05:11 and how he used to get into trouble because he used to sit with his little radio
05:14 under his pillow at night, listening to Sunderland play Man United in the FA Cup,
05:19 which might be a game we come on to with Rob in a bit.
05:24 But I think those passages really stuck with me because of those sort of...
05:27 I think we all, growing up, had those memories, didn't we,
05:30 of listening to Sunderland on the radio late at night, that kind of stuff.
05:33 And I think that that was obviously...
05:35 We'll probably go on to talk about that season when I think Sunderland
05:37 eventually went on to win promotion, didn't they,
05:39 after losing in the FA Cup quarterfinal at Manchester United.
05:42 And that was obviously a very iconic team.
05:44 And I think Charlie was almost the pillar of that team, if you like,
05:48 sort of the spiritual leader, as well as sort of the centre of our team.
05:52 And yeah, I think he clearly had a huge impact on a generation of Sunderland fans,
05:58 I think, and Martin O'Neill's kind of sort of lovely story, I think, is a nod to that.
06:01 And the thing I always think about Charlie Hurley is,
06:04 if you mention Charlie Hurley to any Sunderland fan,
06:07 they'll tell you one of three things.
06:08 He was either their favourite player, he was their parents' favourite player,
06:12 or he was their grandparents' favourite player.
06:14 So whether you saw him or not, you know Charlie Hurley has a history,
06:17 he has a deep meaning to your family, and ultimately, isn't it?
06:20 That's what football is all about.
06:21 It's the threads that we sort of pass through each other.
06:24 And yeah, I would really recommend if there's any Sunderland fans
06:29 who haven't read Martin's book, it's really worth reading.
06:33 And he gives you a great sense of why Charlie meant a lot, I think,
06:37 to a lot of Sunderland fans of that generation.
06:40 - Just to let you know, Phil, I'm certain that Martin's book was named
06:45 after the Van Morrison track, because if you talk Martin and music,
06:48 he's a real passion, it's the Yardbirds.
06:50 Now that is a name from before... - Brilliant band.
06:53 - Oh, James is even... - I've heard of the Yardbirds,
06:55 yeah, brilliant band.
06:57 But yeah, Martin, of course, played for Brian Clough,
07:01 was very influenced by Brian Clough, massively influenced by Brian Clough.
07:05 And of course, as with Andy Reid, who I was talking to yesterday,
07:09 again, who was at Forest with all the Clough connections,
07:16 Cloughie, of course, was centre-forward in the team Charlie was centre-half in.
07:19 So the links in football always come full circle.
07:23 - No, they do, and let's talk about some of those links.
07:25 So Charlie Hurley, born 4th October 1936.
07:28 I was also born on the 4th October, not in 1936, obviously,
07:31 but I felt like I had to get that in there.
07:33 Born in County Cork, but moved to London, played, Rob, for Millwall,
07:37 105 league appearances.
07:38 Now, if ever there was another club to play for other than Sunderland
07:43 that might prepare you for the pressure and the working-class mentality,
07:46 especially in those days, it was Millwall.
07:48 He then joined Sunderland in 1957 for rather a lot of money,
07:52 and it didn't really get off to the best start for Charlie Hurley.
07:55 Tell us about that, because it's maybe a lesson to us not to write players off,
07:59 because his start could be categorised as a bit disastrous, really.
08:03 - Well, yeah, I mean, I think everybody's probably familiar with the tale from Charlie,
08:07 and when he was signed, and when he signed for Sunderland from Millwall,
08:14 he was already really making his name in football.
08:16 A couple of the big London clubs had shown a lot of interest in him.
08:19 He'd made his international debut for the Republic of Ireland against England.
08:25 He'd played in European football.
08:27 It was the very embryonic days of European football.
08:30 In the Inter-Cities Fairs Cup, there was a London Select XI that were playing,
08:35 and Charlie had played for that London Select XI alongside such famous names
08:39 as Danny Blanchflower from Tottenham and Paul Watson, in those days, from Fulham.
08:47 He'd played against a Frankfurt XI, so he was already making his name.
08:52 And when Sunderland wanted to sign him, and Alan Brown, the manager who wanted to sign him,
08:56 Brownie had been a centre-half himself, so obviously knew what he was looking for in a centre-half.
09:03 And Alan Brown was determined to sign this young lad from Millwall.
09:07 As you will know, and as a lot of people watching or listening to this podcast will know,
09:12 Alan Brown, rather like the current regime where the basis at Sunderland is on youth,
09:19 Alan Brown also wanted to build his team around a very, very young side.
09:24 Indeed, at Sunderland this season, just recently when we played away to Southampton
09:28 and Sunderland fielded their youngest ever starting XI,
09:32 the record that they broke came from shortly after Charlie came.
09:35 The record was previously set on Boxing Day 1959 at Lincoln City,
09:40 so it illustrates that Sunderland had a very young team in those days.
09:43 And Charlie was just 20, and Alan Brown brought him in and explained to Charlie
09:48 that what he wanted to do was to build the new team,
09:51 because Alan Brown had only just recently taken over at Sunderland,
09:54 and he wanted to build a new team around this big, powerful centre-half of Charlie Hurley.
09:59 So Charlie Hurley came in, having taken an awful lot of persuasion to leave London,
10:05 to move about as far away as possible to move from London and still play football, the English football league.
10:11 And in the first game, Sunderland lost 7-0.
10:16 And in the second game, and by the way, in that first game, not only did they lose 7-0,
10:21 they were playing against Blackpool, they had a certain Stanley Matthews on the wing who was tearing them apart.
10:25 Sunderland were actually 3-0 down in the first 10 minutes, ended up losing 7-0.
10:30 The week after they lost 6-0, and your predecessor at the Echo, Bill Butterfield, better known as Argus,
10:40 and there is an album, you were talking about Martin O'Neill's book being a nod to Van Morrison.
10:49 Well, I always like to point out that Argus was also the title of Wishbone Ash's first album,
10:53 and it means 'one who watches closely', although of course, Wishbone Ash's first album came out a good decade and a half after this.
11:01 But Billy Butterfield was the main reporter from the Sunderland Echo,
11:06 and Billy Butterfield was very concerned, you know, he just watched Sunderland get beat 7-0 and 6-0,
11:11 so much for his new centre-half.
11:13 And in typical fashion, Charlie just gave a, you know, always with Charlie, there'd be a chuckle in his voice and a glint in his eye,
11:22 and he just said, 'Look, see, there's an improvement already.'
11:25 And that improvement took some time to actually come, because in that season,
11:32 Sunderland went on to be relegated for the very first time in their entire history.
11:36 But of course, in years to come, Charlie became captain.
11:39 He wasn't captain at that point, Stan Anderson was, but Charlie became captain,
11:44 and six years later, finally led them to the first ever promotion,
11:48 something that happened 60 years ago in that season, and it seems somewhat fitting, in a way,
11:54 that, you know, when Charlie passed away at the age of 87, it's at the culmination of the commemorations of the 60th anniversary of that first ever promotion team.
12:04 And also, I should mention that, with Sunderland's next game after Charlie's passing, being at Watford,
12:10 I think Watford's the closest ground to where Charlie's lived for the last umpteen years.
12:14 He's lived in Hertfordshire for many, many years.
12:16 And while I've never seen him at Watford, I've seen him at Luton, which is just down the road where Sunderland have played at Luton.
12:23 So it just seems fitting that Sunderland's first game after the passing of Charlie Hurley should be at the ground nearest to where he's lived for a long time.
12:31 Absolutely. And Rob, this was something I didn't actually know until quite recently,
12:36 but that season where Sunderland were promoted back to the top flight, the first promotion in the club's history,
12:41 Charlie Hurley actually finished runner-up to the great Bobby Moore in the Player of the Year award,
12:47 which for a second tier player at the time, is quite an achievement.
12:51 Yeah, well, of course, let me just say that, firstly, another little-known fact is the whole idea of the Footballer of the Year award came from another songwriter,
12:59 namely Charlie Buchan, who I just mentioned a few moments ago.
13:02 That was Charlie Buchan's idea. Oddly enough, Stanley Matthews, who I've just mentioned, was the first winner.
13:09 If you think about it now, take this season, when the Footballer of the Year is announced,
13:13 given the title race that's going on with Liverpool and with Arsenal at Manchester City,
13:18 if the runner-up of the Footballer of the Year award came from somebody in the Championship now, that puts it into context.
13:27 So, Charlie, who that year had captained Sunderland to promotion, had led Sunderland in a fantastic FA Cup run,
13:35 where they'd knocked out the reigning league champions Everton and then taken the cup holders, Man United,
13:40 Charlton Lauren best included, to two replays in the FA Cup quarter-final.
13:46 And as older listeners to this will remember, in both of those first two games with Man United,
13:52 Man United equalised in the last minute and taken the replays.
13:54 Indeed, in the first one, Sunderland were 3-1 up with Old Trafford with four minutes to go,
13:59 when Monty got injured and Man United pulled two late goals back.
14:02 So, Charlie had had a huge profile. He was the dominant figure and leader in that promotion side.
14:10 And yes, the only person that pipped him to the Footballer of the Year award was Bobby Moore,
14:16 who'd captained West Ham to win the FA Cup.
14:18 And of course, I always think the fact he was playing for the London club probably helped swayed his way.
14:24 And that just gives us a flavour, Phil, doesn't it, of how good Charlie Hurley actually was as a player.
14:29 Obviously, we haven't seen anything of him other than quite old footage.
14:33 But what's said about him, the number of appearances he made,
14:37 who he finished runner-up to in the Player of the Year award,
14:40 it's a brilliant sort of CV that he had and that he has.
14:46 And I think the thing that I've sort of taken away from hearing about Charlie Hurley over the years
14:52 was that he was absolutely made for Sunderland in terms of his playing style,
14:56 being a big, bruising centre-back, but could also play and had a lot of talent as well.
15:01 Well, that's right. He wasn't so much... Sorry, go on, Phil.
15:04 No, go on. I was just going to say, it's such a funny thing that we obviously never saw Charlie Hurley play,
15:10 but the stories that get passed down are so vivid.
15:14 I almost feel like I can sort of picture him playing.
15:18 You know, this idea of this big towering centre-half winning all the headers.
15:23 I love this image of centre-halves not usually going up for corners in those days.
15:27 And this thrill of this centre-half sort of ambling up to make a late dash for the back post.
15:32 I just think that's such a brilliant image.
15:35 And yeah, I just think that's such a lovely thing, really, that even though we never saw him,
15:39 we almost have this folklore passed down of this huge centre-half ambling up for a corner.
15:46 I just think it's such a great image.
15:49 Yeah, it's one of my favourite sort of Charlie Hurley stories or images.
15:54 Charlie, the only thing is, back in those days, and I only saw Charlie when I started going in February '67.
16:00 So, Charlie had been a Sunner for a decade when I started going, but I saw the last two or three years of his career.
16:07 And the thing with Charlie, when Charlie first was playing for Sunderland,
16:11 and first started going up for corners in the early '60s, in those days, football crowds didn't really chant.
16:18 These days, you go up to the Stadium of Light, and we all know the fans have got quite a vast repertoire of songs.
16:25 But back in those days, they didn't. The crowd made a right racket.
16:27 We've all heard of the 'roke-a-roar'.
16:29 You know, there'd be a vast amount of noise and incredible atmospheres at the ground.
16:34 But you wouldn't really get a chant.
16:37 And so when Charlie started to go forward for corners, the whole ground would just chant,
16:43 "Charlie! Charlie! Charlie!"
16:47 And at the same time, in the old wooden stands at Roker Park, people in the seats, the posh seats,
16:52 of course, nearly everybody stood, but there were 9,500 seats at Roker Park.
16:57 And the people in the seats would stamp their feet like mad on the wooden floorboards, which just added to the racket.
17:03 Well, the visiting teams didn't know what on earth was going to hit them.
17:06 And Charlie wouldn't just go up.
17:08 The moment a corner was given, Charlie wasn't going to sprint into the box.
17:12 In Jimmy Montgomery's words, he would just saunter to the penalty area.
17:16 And he would time his arrival in the penalty area for just as the corner kick was taken.
17:22 And he would basically then have, you know, not so much the surprise, because people had seen him coming,
17:28 but a little bit of momentum having made his way up from the halfway line.
17:32 And because of his ability in the air, if it was a good delivery, usually from either Brian Usher or George Mulhall,
17:39 if it was a good delivery, Charlie would be nailed on to be the most likely man to get first contact.
17:44 And if he didn't score, it was, you know, little nippy centre forward Nicky Sharkey,
17:50 who told me, he self-god rest his soul, Nicky Sharkey, another great player,
17:55 Nicky Sharkey would say, "I would always know I was going to get a lot of my goals from tap-ins."
18:00 Because if the keeper parried down a Charlie header, he would be on the spot and say, "Thank you very much,"
18:06 and just tap it into an empty net.
18:07 So Sutherland got an awful lot of goals from Charlie coming forward from those corners.
18:11 And yes, for people who were old enough to have been there, that was not just a highlight of going to the match in those days.
18:19 All these years later, people who've supported Sutherland for decades upon decades,
18:23 it remains one of their greatest memories.
18:27 A number of memories all rolled into one, memories over several seasons, as opposed to a particular goal.
18:33 Although if you're talking a particular goal, I would always think of one scored away from home,
18:39 which was in an FA Cup tie at Norwich, where Charlie had an absolutely brilliant game in keeping Norwich out,
18:44 who were very, very dominant, and then went up the other end and scored the only goal of the game from a corner.
18:52 And significantly, or memorably, that ball just stayed in the net. It didn't hit the back of the net.
18:57 It hit the staunchet in the back of the net, and it had been headed with just force. It just launched.
19:04 You mentioned that, we were talking about that, Rob, about obviously as Sutherland fans,
19:09 we always say that you've got to give everything for the shirt, for the badge,
19:14 but Sutherland fans have always loved a bit of a showman as well, a little bit of theatre.
19:20 And I wonder, with Charlie going up for the corners, I'm thinking of players like Len Shackleton,
19:24 and there's lots of recent memories as well, of those skilful plays, those plays with a bit of a sense of theatre.
19:30 And with Charlie going up for those corners and timing his runs, was that part of his cult as well, that he had that sense of putting on a bit of a show?
19:38 Yeah, it's a very good point. I mean, Charlie did love a bit of theatre.
19:45 Charlie was, don't get this the wrong way around, Charlie was not afflicted by false modesty.
19:54 Charlie knew and understood his place in the affections of Sutherland supporters.
20:03 He also knew that that didn't happen by accident. That respect that Charlie had, had been earned.
20:09 And he knew how much the fans loved him. And he did play up to that. He loved it if he was at a due,
20:16 and everybody was singing 'Who's the greatest centre half the world's ever seen?' He absolutely loved that. He laughed it up.
20:21 Who wouldn't?
20:22 But that wasn't an arrogance. That was just Charlie being Charlie.
20:27 And I always say that for all of the love that Sutherland supporters showed Charlie Hurley,
20:35 and have showed very, very clearly this week, and will do I'm sure in the coming games,
20:40 I'm sure the fans at Watford will be showing their respects to Charlie,
20:43 and certainly next week in the home game with Sheffield Wednesday they'll be showing their respects to Charlie, and rightly so.
20:48 But for all of the love Sutherland fans showed Charlie Hurley, Charlie Hurley showed his love of Sutherland fans every bit as much.
20:57 Because we all know, sometimes you get players from the North East, players from Sutherland,
21:02 like Dan Neil for example, who were Sutherland through and through. We know that.
21:06 Sometimes when you sign a player from elsewhere in the country, it's just a step and stone along the route on their career.
21:12 But we all know of players who from outside the area have really bought into Sutherland.
21:17 The most famous quote is 'Quinny's Sutherland got under my skin' quote.
21:21 But you think of other people like Kevin Ball, or Gary Bennett, or Len Ashurst, who came to Sutherland from outside the area,
21:28 no previous connections with Sutherland, but then stayed in Sutherland or after their careers came back to live in Sutherland.
21:34 And Charlie was very much one of those people who really understood Sutherland people.
21:41 Like Niall Quinn, like Andy Reid, who I mentioned I spoke to yesterday, was an Irishman who felt a great affinity with the people of Wearside
21:50 because he felt the people were very like the people in Ireland in that they were grounded, very down to earth people.
21:56 Charlie absolutely got that and he idolised, 'idolised' is not too strong a word I think,
22:01 Charlie idolised Sutherland fans in the same way that Sutherland fans idolised him.
22:06 So yes, he did like to play up to the community, but he did it with a big smile on his face.
22:11 There's a long history of that at Sutherland as well isn't there Rob, with that.
22:16 I'm just thinking, sort of your description of Charlie Hurley there reminds me of what I've read a little bit about Rich Carter,
22:21 who famously liked to play up to the gallery as well.
22:24 Well yeah, Rich, now Rich did have an arrogance. Rich himself would say he had an arrogance.
22:31 And Rich's son, also called Rich Carter, will also always tell you, yes his dad had an arrogance.
22:37 In the case of Rich Carter, what Rich Carter's son says is, he says,
22:43 'In any game my dad ever played, whether it was for Sunderland, whether it was for Derby,
22:47 I remember Rich Carter was the only man to win the FA Cup both sides of the wall with Sunderland 37 and Derby 46.
22:56 But whether he was playing for Sunderland, Derby, anybody else, including England,
23:00 Rich Carter would always think, without question, he was the best player on the pitch.
23:05 He probably was mate, but Rich Carter certainly had a genuine arrogance about him,
23:10 and deservedly so, and was a truly brilliant player.
23:13 I always say that if you picked an all-time England team, Rich Carter would be the Sunderland player most likely to get into it.
23:20 Absolutely. I want to illuminate this quote from Charlie Hurley.
23:25 This was on Sunderland's promotion back in 1964.
23:28 He said at the time, 'That day meant so much to the people of Sunderland,
23:31 seeing grown men, miners, shipbuilders and the like in tears.
23:35 No money in the world could replace the memories I have of Sunderland, Roker Park and all those marvellous supporters.'
23:41 Rob, that sort of transports you back to a different Sunderland in a way,
23:45 and a Sunderland that Charlie Hurley represented,
23:48 the industrialised Sunderland that we've not lost, but it's certainly moved on in the city now.
23:54 Yes, absolutely. And the players in those days were not just at Sunderland, at every club,
24:01 the players were a lot closer to their fans than they are now.
24:04 The supporters got a lot closer to their fans.
24:07 These days, if the supporters get close to the fans, it's normally in an event like the recent fans open day that they have,
24:13 in the weekend holidays, where there's organised events for the fans to go along and meet the players.
24:18 Back in Charlie's day, the routine would be the pre-match meal would be down at the Roker Hotel,
24:24 and then the players as a squad, and the squad would be very small,
24:28 for the first few years of Charlie's career there'd be no substitutes, there'd just be 11 of them.
24:34 Maybe he's a spare man in case somebody was ill, but there wouldn't be actually a substitute named.
24:38 But they'd have their dinner in the Roker Hotel, and then just walk up from the Roker Hotel up to Ruff Park.
24:44 It's crazy.
24:45 You know, famously on the night, you mentioned that Cup tie with Man United in that '64 season,
24:52 famously on that Cup tie, the players nearly didn't get up to the game because the crowd was so thick and they couldn't get through.
25:00 And Dave Elliott, who played in that Cup tie, because Jimmy McNab was injured,
25:05 Dave Elliott only played eight games that season, and he'd only just come into the team.
25:09 And Dave Elliott says, well, he says, people were making their way through for Charlie and Jimmy Montgomery
25:15 and everybody got through because they knew who they were.
25:17 But he says, nobody knew who I was. I was playing, I was struggling to get through to get to the match.
25:21 Obviously, I feel like '64 is probably the sort of the younger sort of mind of James's generation.
25:34 That's probably the one that stands out.
25:35 We know sort of the first promotion and the Man United sort of quarterfinal Cup run,
25:40 a big 'what if' moment, I guess, having led sort of two of those games until the last minute or so.
25:46 What are the other sort of standout moments from Charlie's time at Sutherland, if you had to pick a couple?
25:53 I know he almost transcended that because he was such a big personality,
25:56 but is there anything else that sort of springs to mind as huge moments in Charlie's time at Sutherland?
26:03 No, absolutely. And with regard to that promotion season of '63, '64,
26:12 firstly, as I think a lot of people know, there was a huge, huge rivalry with Leeds that had built up in the early '60s.
26:19 A huge rivalry with Leeds that eventually culminated in the '73 Cup final.
26:25 Not forgetting that halfway between '64 and '73, Sutherland met Leeds in the fifth round in 1967,
26:32 another game that went to two replays.
26:34 And that was the time that saw '73 Cup winning captain Bobby Kerr have his leg broken by Norman Hunter.
26:41 In what was an accidental challenge for all of Norman Hunter's 'break your legs' reputation.
26:48 But Bobby Kerr was a young lad who'd just come into the team and scored a lot of goals.
26:51 He was a teenager, just coming into the team, scored a lot of goals at that point and then broke his leg in that Cup time.
26:56 But earlier in the '60s, Willie McFeet, who to this day remains the teenager to score the most goals for Sutherland,
27:03 he scored 23 goals as a teenager. Josh Marger was getting quite close to his record three or four years ago, but didn't.
27:10 But Willie McFeet had had his leg broken in a horrible tackle that was not an accident from Leeds' Bobby Collins.
27:18 And those tackles were, I was going to say the highlight, highlight's the wrong words,
27:24 very much the low light of the relationship between Sutherland and Leeds.
27:29 That rivalry was absolutely as fierce as a rivalry could come.
27:34 Bear in mind that these days you just give somebody a dirty look and you get sent off.
27:37 In those days, you could more or less hand-draw and quote somebody and just get a stern ticking off from the referee.
27:42 You know, he was licensed to chop people off at knee height.
27:48 So the games with Leeds were phenomenal. And Charlie, of course, was very, very dominant in those games.
27:54 In the '63/'64 season, Leeds pipped Sutherland to the second division title.
27:59 Although in the two games between Sutherland and Leeds, Sutherland drew at Leeds and beat Leeds at Roper Park,
28:04 Sutherland were clearly the better side than Leeds.
28:07 But it was the cup run that really allowed Leeds to just sneak ahead of Sutherland.
28:11 So, for example, I mentioned that Sutherland had knocked out the reigning league champions Everton in the fifth round.
28:17 Well, Everton had knocked Leeds out in a replay in the previous round, but Sutherland were good enough to beat them.
28:23 But then the three-game epic with Manchester United, which came around about games with Newcastle United and Middlesbrough,
28:30 rather demanding games in their own right, cost Sutherland some points because they were shattered after the cup tie.
28:36 And bear in mind, I just mentioned a moment ago, there was no substitutes.
28:39 There wasn't five players coming off after an hour and having a rest.
28:42 If you were playing, you were playing for 90 minutes. And it was a very settled side.
28:46 Four of the 11 played all 42 league games. Charlie missed one game.
28:51 Several other players missed only two or three games.
28:55 And everybody knows that at Sutherland, a lot of people, most people, if they're really, really good supporters of a certain age,
29:04 can just reel off the 73 team, you know, without question.
29:09 The only other team I think a lot of Sutherland supporters can reel off is the 64 team,
29:14 because it was the same 11 week in, week out. At times they went 11, 12 games unchanged.
29:20 And as I say, that would mean they were unchanged for the full 90 minutes of the time.
29:25 And in those league games, Charlie, which were mega, mega games, you know,
29:30 Charlie was absolutely dominant. Those games would stand out as amongst the Charlie Hurley memories.
29:35 And then when promotion came, effectively, promotion was sealed in the third last game of the season away to Southampton.
29:44 And that was just down the road from Portsmouth, where six years earlier had been the scene of Sutherland's first relegation.
29:50 So we were back on the south coast, out Southampton.
29:53 We got a draw that effectively, all but mathematically certain, took Sutherland up so mathematically close that with two games to go,
30:03 Leeds were already promoted. Preston, who had got to the FA Cup final that year, they were third,
30:10 with a young Howard Kendall in their side, teenage Howard Kendall. Preston had got to the FA Cup final, they were third.
30:17 But with two games to go after the match at the Dell, Southampton's old ground, Sunderland could have lost their last two games by 5-0.
30:24 Bear in mind, one of them was against relegation-threatened Grimsby, who went down.
30:28 They could have lost their last two games 5-0 and Preston could have won their last two games 5-0
30:33 and Sunderland would have still gone up on goal average.
30:36 There was so much in the ascendancy with goal average.
30:40 But in the following week, Sunderland beat Charlton Athletic 2-1 at home with a late goal.
30:44 After Charlton Athletic's former Sunderland goalkeeper Peter Wakeham had had an absolute blinder,
30:49 Charlie always said, "He never played as well as that when he played for us, but he had a blinder."
30:55 But Sunderland won that game, to make it mathematically certain.
30:59 And the images that I think everybody's probably familiar with of the lap of honour after the game,
31:04 with Charlie being chaired around the ground by his team-mates, on the shoulders of his great friend Jimmy McNabb.
31:10 Jimmy was the first of the 64 team to die. 'Mac of the Knife', as Charlie would always call him.
31:18 Playing alongside Charlie, he left half to Charlie's centre-half.
31:23 Because in those days it was a 2-3-5 formation by and large, the old WM formation.
31:28 If people know what I'm talking about with that, it'd have to be my vintage to really get that, I think.
31:32 But Jimmy was the first of the Sunderland players to die.
31:36 And the funeral was at the church just over the bridge, coming into Forster Street and Bridge Street.
31:42 And I went to that funeral and Charlie delivered the eulogy at that particular funeral.
31:47 And Charlie's eulogy was a eulogy to Jimmy, but it was a eulogy to Sunderland, it was a eulogy to the 64 team.
31:55 And what a lifelong bond they all had.
31:58 And with Charlie's death, I think off the top of my head, I think that means now that over half of that regular 11 have passed away.
32:05 And it is a very, very sad moment in Sunderland.
32:09 But as a direct answer to your question, Phil, yes, there were numerous games that would pick out with Charlie,
32:15 as particularly famous games that he had. I've mentioned two or three of them there.
32:20 But I think the overriding thing for Charlie, in his 401 games for Sunderland,
32:24 and he's one of only 10 people to make that 400 mark for Sunderland.
32:29 The big thing about Charlie, and I think the big thing about anybody who plays that number of games,
32:33 is you don't play that number of games without being consistent.
32:36 So like everybody else, like every other human being, Diego Maradona, Pelé, Bobby Charlton,
32:42 whichever great you get the name, they all had bad games.
32:45 They're only human beings.
32:47 But the better you are, the more games you play means that, you know,
32:51 the fewer bad games you have per, let's say, per 10 that you play.
32:55 You know, Charlie would be a player who, more games than not, would be absolutely excellent.
33:00 And a bad game for Charlie would mean he was just, you know, OK, as opposed to superb.
33:06 As fate would have it, Rob, when Charlie left Sunderland in 1969,
33:12 his story and Sunderland's story would overlap again in 1973,
33:16 something I wasn't aware of until recently, whilst he was manager of Redmond.
33:20 And tell us about that, because it's a bizarre quirk in history, isn't it?
33:23 Yeah, well, absolutely.
33:24 And these football links that you mentioned.
33:26 Yeah, well, Charlie had taken over as manager at Redmond,
33:29 who were in the fourth division at the time, or League Two, as it's called these days.
33:36 So in the third round of the FA Cup, Sunderland had knocked out Notts County,
33:40 who were a third division side.
33:42 They were a decent third division side who went on to win promotion that season.
33:45 And we'd taken a replay with Notts County, having drawn at Meadow Lane.
33:50 I should also say, incidentally, that while Jimmy Montgomery's save in the final is the famous one,
33:54 if it hadn't been for an equally good save from Les Bragg ten minutes from time at Notts County,
33:58 when we were already 1-0 down, that cup run would never have happened.
34:02 But then we came to Reading in the fourth round, and Reading, as you say, were managed by Charlie Hurley.
34:09 Now, that was huge, huge news at Sunderland.
34:13 It was four years after he'd left, and here he was, the king, coming back to Sunderland.
34:19 And Charlie had told his team, he'd told them a little bit about what Sunderland was like,
34:26 and what the atmosphere was going to be like compared to what they were used to.
34:31 Now, these days, when you go to the match at Vicarage Road at the weekend, or you go to any game,
34:38 what will always happen these days is around about quarter past, 20 past,
34:43 two weeks or so, both teams are out on the field warming up, and then they'll go into the dressing room for a bit,
34:48 and then they'll come out just before the kick-off.
34:51 As I remember it, back in those days, teams didn't do that.
34:55 The first you saw the teams run was when they came out to us before the kick-off for a quick warm-up.
35:00 So they weren't coming out, but in the stands, under the ground,
35:05 in the dressing rooms at Roker Park, all the players could hear were people chanting,
35:10 "Charlie, Charlie!" And Charlie had to come out before the game to acknowledge the fact that they were so desperate to see him.
35:17 And then I mentioned then Monty saving the third round from Les Brown.
35:22 Well, Reading had a goalkeeper, a little goalkeeper, long since dead, called Steve Death.
35:27 He was a tiny goalkeeper, and he produced what I still think is the best goalkeeper performance
35:33 I've ever seen by an opposition goalkeeper.
35:36 Closely rivaled by Mark Bosnich's for Aston Villa when Villa beat us 4-1 at Roker Park when Ron Atkinson was manager.
35:43 But Steve Death produced the most fabulous goalkeeper performance,
35:48 and Reading got away with a 1-1 draw and took us back to Elm Park for the fourth-round replay,
35:54 at which point, Sullen were very early, 3-0 up and went on to win 3-1.
36:00 And obviously went on then to continue the cup run, etc.
36:05 But yes, coming up against Charlie, particularly with Charlie getting the opportunity to come back to Roker Park in 1973,
36:12 was a fabulous opportunity and a fabulous homecoming for Charlie to be able to come back to Roker Park.
36:21 And some people who have been reading about Charlie in the last few days will have also read some of the stories
36:29 or heard some of the stories by my good friend Malcolm Bramley, who is an absolutely excellent bloke
36:34 and who is the chairman of the Senior Supporters Association.
36:38 A lot of people will know that they've heard Malcolm's story, which I won't repeat at any length here,
36:44 they've heard Malcolm's story about Charlie lending them his car and Malcolm crashing Charlie's car and Charlie never letting him forget it.
36:53 But what a lot of people don't know is that Malcolm was secretary to Brian Clough at Derby and he was also secretary to Len Ashurst at Gillingham.
37:03 Charlie Hurley actually appointed Malcolm as secretary at Reading and Malcolm accepted the job,
37:08 but then when Charlie got the sack as Malcolm was working his notice, Malcolm thought,
37:12 'Well, if Charlie's not there, I'm not going to let him win through' and never ended up going to Reading.
37:17 But yes, it was a fantastic opportunity for Charlie to come back to Sullen in 1973.
37:22 I think the other big moment of Charlie's returns to Sunderland was the final ever game at Roker Park,
37:29 when amongst all of the commemorations at Roker Park, which included a whole host of legendary figures
37:36 doing a lap of honour around Roker Park before that final farewell game against Liverpool.
37:41 After that farewell game against Liverpool, it was Charlie as the player of the century who came back onto the pitch
37:48 to ceremonially dig up the centre spot for the centre spot at Roker Park to be replanted at the Stadium of Light.
37:55 No, brilliant. Phil, have you got anything to add there?
37:59 No, I just, the only, that's the thing when I was reading obviously all the tributes and listening to the tributes,
38:04 the only thing that really, the thing that stuck me was Nile Quinn's tribute and him talking about him, Roy and Charlie,
38:13 obviously in pre-season, going to Cork. And there's a brilliant story here, but I'll let you pick it up from here, Rob.
38:21 But I just thought as well, that is such a poignant, almost passionate, torch. I love that image.
38:27 Because for me, I think Nile and Charlie, there are some comparisons there because Nile was just this totemic figure
38:34 in my childhood who just made us all dream. And yeah, I love the images of the two of them together.
38:38 That's real passionate, the torch stuff.
38:40 Undoubtedly, Phil, and I'm pleased you've made that point. Charlie Hurley is, as we all know, Sunderland's player of the century,
38:46 named in the centenary year of 1979. As we stand now, we're not too many years off the 150th year of Sunderland.
38:53 For me, Nile Quinn would be the person of the second century, up to now. I'm hoping that sometime in the second half of this century,
39:02 there's somebody who sort of captains us to the Premier League title three times and then lifts the Champions League.
39:06 Who knows? In 50 years' time or something. But as things stand, with coming up to half a century, the second century of the club gone,
39:15 not just for what he did as a player, but for what he did in taking over the club and revitalising the club,
39:22 for me, Nile Quinn is the person of the second century. And there are so many comparisons, you're quite right.
39:29 You're talking there about the 2007 tour in Ireland, when Sunderland, with Nile as chairman and having been taken over by the
39:39 Drumerville Consortium, which apart from the lovely and much-missed John Hayes as a local way-sider,
39:47 the Drumerville Consortium were all obviously Irish people. And then we had Roy Keane as manager, who were very much marketed
39:54 as Sunderland and tried to get lots of Irish supporters coming to Sunderland. And we went on that particular tour.
40:03 Not the hardest job I was ever given, by the way, but my job on that tour, apart from doing all my normal work,
40:09 my job on that tour is I was designated to look after Charlie on the tour. And we were sponsored on that tour by Air Arran,
40:16 who flew us to the various games. And I was sat beside Charlie on all those flights. And Charlie was like a kid in a sweet shop,
40:25 because despite his football career, despite all of his international experience, in Charlie's era, things were done differently.
40:33 And Charlie had never, ever been on a charter flight before. He'd never, ever been on his own private plane, which we had.
40:40 And he couldn't believe the sort of lap of luxury in which he was being treated in terms of not having to mess around in airports,
40:46 but just getting on your flight, more or less taking off whenever you're ready, etc., etc.
40:51 But on that particular tour, Niall, Roy and Charlie went out and they went in a taxi.
40:59 And the taxi driver was absolutely beside himself, and he had Roy Keane in the taxi.
41:06 And the taxi driver said, I'm not sure whether he was talking to the lads in the back of the cab or whether he was on the phone to his mates or whatever,
41:14 or the taxi headquarters or whatever. But the taxi driver said, I've got the King of Cork in the car.
41:19 At which point, Charlie pokes him in the back and says, I'm the King of Cork.
41:25 On that particular tour, a personal memory is that on one night, Niall took myself, the late Louise Wanless,
41:38 who lots of people will be familiar with, and you lads will be familiar with, took Niall, took myself, Louise and Charlie to a pub in Blarney.
41:46 And it was a typical, I say typical, for want of a better word, a typical Irish pub.
41:55 The place was packed. Word had gone round that Charlie and Niall were there. The place was absolutely packed as it after.
42:02 It was a place where there was a big sing-song going on, and the style was you had to get up onto a chair and sing a song.
42:10 And after singing a song, you then have to shout in a big voice, you have to say, I call upon, and then name somebody who's the next person to get up on the chair.
42:19 Well, Charlie was absolutely his element on this particular night. Now, I can't sing. I absolutely can't sing.
42:26 It's amongst the many things I can't do. But when Puddy said, I call upon Rob Mason to sing, I thought, for goodness sake, the worst thing he could ever do to me.
42:33 But we ended up, Niall, Charlie, Louise and myself, all stood on chairs, giving the assembled company the best version we could of the Lambton Worm.
42:44 And Charlie, as I say, was in his element. He just loved it. He just loved being there. He loved being amongst his own people.
42:53 While he spoke with a London accent, I think you said earlier, James, you know, you've been born in Ireland but moved to London at the age of six months.
43:02 You would never, ever meet a more passionate Irishman than Charlie Hurley, in the same way that you wouldn't meet anybody more passionate about what Sunderland meant to them than Charlie.
43:13 He wasn't, you know, he's not a club legend for nothing, you know. He absolutely deserves that status, which he will always hold.
43:21 And he's the player of the century now, half a century on almost from when he got that award.
43:25 But in another half a century, you know, in another half a century and beyond, that folklore that means that you two younger people know all about Charlie Hurley.
43:36 People in, you know, 50, 60, 70 or more years time will still know about Charlie Hurley because his legendary status will continue to get passed down in football and folklore in the same way as people like Rachel Carter and Wayne Shackle. He's that calibre.
43:51 Brilliant words, Rob. We'll have to wrap it up very shortly because Phil's got to get on his way to Watford.
43:57 But I also found the second anecdote that you wrote about Charlie on Sunderland's website, which I would encourage everybody to read.
44:05 It's a brilliant tribute. But cutting Martin Bain off as well at an awards dinner, that really tickled me. Tell us about that quickly.
44:12 Well, yeah, let's just be honest here and say that while Charlie is one of my favourites, Martin Bain isn't.
44:22 So that adds to the context for me. So it was the day when we moved from the Charlie Hurley Centre, you know, the old training ground over at Whitburn.
44:31 Long since after we'd moved from the Charlie Hurley Centre to the Academy of Light, the club took what I thought was a very, very good decision,
44:40 which was to re-site those gates at the Academy of Light. And I saw yesterday, Phil, that you had been down there and made some flowers yourself,
44:48 which I thought was brilliant. I would expect by the time I get down to Sunderland next week, you know, I live up in Scotland,
44:54 I come down for all the games, I'll be down next Thursday for the awards evening and then staying down for the match against Sheffield.
45:01 I would imagine by the time I get there, I expect there'll be a lot of red and white flowers there and I'll be bringing some myself, no doubt.
45:07 But yes, on the day that those Charlie Hurley gates were re-sited at the stadium, all of the surviving members of the 64 team were invited to be there along with Charlie.
45:19 And again, not the hardest job I was ever given. I was asked to look after them for the day and have lunch with them and sit with them at the match and so on.
45:26 And before the game, we were all in the boardroom and Martin Bain, who was the chief executive at the time, now Martin could hold court.
45:36 Martin was a very, very capable public speaker, very confident, very assured in what he would do.
45:44 And he wasn't used to being interrupted. He started, he wanted to give a speech about the 64 team, not that he knew anything about them,
45:53 other than he'd read a little bit and he had the right thing to say. And he would have done a perfectly good job if he'd been allowed to,
45:59 but he barely got a sentence and a half out. And in the nicest possible way, Charlie just took over.
46:06 I could see Charlie thinking, I'm not listening to this. You know, I'm not listening to this.
46:10 But Charlie just took over and he had a booming voice. And Charlie was one of those people, like Niall,
46:17 Charlie was one of those people who, it's a cliche to say it, but it's true. Charlie walked into the room,
46:23 everybody went quiet because everybody wanted to listen to Charlie. And Charlie wanted them to listen to Charlie as well.
46:30 And Charlie just took over. And he gave this big, booming speech in which he spoke not so much about himself.
46:38 He spoke about his love for the teammates he had there with him. And it was a love, you know, a genuine lifelong bond.
46:45 He talked about the love he had for his teammates. And most importantly and most especially,
46:51 he talked genuinely about the love he had for the Sunderland supporters and what they meant to him.
46:56 And he talked about the fact that in his day, they were all miners and shipguard workers and so on, proper grafters that he really respected.
47:04 But then he said, and it seems highly appropriate to sort of relay this at this time when Charlie's just passed away.
47:10 But then he said, with the usual chuckle in his voice and the usual glint in his eye, he said, you know,
47:16 he says, "When the day comes when I go to heaven, I will be the captain." You know, and I'm absolutely certain that,
47:24 you know, if there is a football team in heaven now, they do have a new captain and he'll have a number five on his back.
47:30 And it won't need, you know, if they've got names on the back of the shirts, it won't need to say Hurley.
47:35 It'll just say Charlie, because Charlie was one of those people for whom the first name was sufficient.
47:40 He talked about Charlie with Sunderland supporters and for all of the other great players we've had of that name,
47:46 most particularly Charlie Buckingham, really, he said Charlie in the Sunderland context.
47:50 And it can only mean one thing, Charlie Hurley. The greatest centre half the world has ever seen.
47:55 Well, thank you for joining us, Rob. That's been absolutely fantastic. A sad day, but also nice to reflect as well.
48:00 Phil, any last words before we wrap up?
48:03 No, Rob, thanks so much for your time. As Jim said, it's a sad day, but also really, really nice to relive all those memories as well.
48:11 Just a reminder of how important our history is as well and how important it is to keep it alive as well and make sure it endures.
48:19 So, yeah, thanks so much for your time, Rob. Really, really enjoyed chatting.
48:23 My pleasure. And as Andy Reid said to me yesterday when I was talking to him about Charlie Hurley, he said,
48:28 look, he says in Ireland, as well as sending our condolences to the family and friends of Charlie Hurley,
48:34 it's very important to celebrate the person's life. And this podcast and all of the other tributes to Charlie are all celebrating Charlie's life, and rightly so.
48:44 Absolutely. Well, that is the perfect words in which to end. Thank you very much for listening to our tribute to Charlie Hurley.
48:50 And we'd like to extend our best wishes to his remaining friends and family. Thank you once again for listening.