Sunderland lose fifth game in spin with Luke O'Nien now suspended
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00:00 [MUSIC]
00:10 Hello and welcome to the Raw podcast brought to you by the Sunderland Echo.
00:27 Joe and James here today.
00:29 Going to be reflecting on Sunderland's 1-0 defeat against Leicester City.
00:34 It's five defeats in a row now for the Black Cats following last night's game.
00:40 We're recording this on Wednesday and they've now slipped further away
00:45 from the playoff plays, actually now closer to the relegation zone
00:49 ahead of Wednesday's fixtures in the championship.
00:52 So we're going to be talking about that and
00:55 the change that Mike Godds made to the side yesterday.
00:59 And just looking at the stats, James,
01:01 going back over it in the morning after last night's game.
01:05 Stats pretty even in terms of possession, 49% for Sunderland, 51% for Leicester.
01:11 Shots 17 for Sunderland, 10 for Leicester.
01:15 Shots on target, six a piece.
01:17 Corners, six for Sunderland and five for Leicester.
01:21 But in terms of both boxes, obviously Leicester took that early lead
01:26 with Jamie Vardy in the 13th minute.
01:27 It's now 10 games that Sunderland haven't kept a clean sheet.
01:31 But I just felt going forward that, again, Sunderland,
01:33 that cutting edge is something that we've said a lot of times this season.
01:37 It's now two goals in five games from these five defeats they've had in a row.
01:41 And I just felt, again, Sunderland, just although they were mounting
01:44 some of that late pressure, you just couldn't...
01:47 I think it's harsh to say you couldn't see where the goal was going to come from.
01:51 But without Jack Clarke, without Patrick Roberts, without Alex Pritchard,
01:54 now a lot has been kind of taken away from that forward line, hasn't it?
01:58 Yeah, it was going to take a moment of magic, something long-ranged.
02:01 Obviously, Trehume hit the bar.
02:04 Or it was going to be a penalty decision.
02:05 Obviously, there was one towards the end of the game on Dan Ballard.
02:09 But in terms of working a goal from open play,
02:13 get the ball into the box, across the six-yard box, I didn't see it.
02:16 I thought Hamier was really isolated.
02:18 I thought he was frustrated.
02:20 His body language, he looked frustrated.
02:22 Sunderland don't look to play to his feet.
02:24 They don't look to play in behind.
02:26 They clearly don't trust him.
02:27 I don't think at the moment, hopefully that's something that can maybe grow.
02:31 Is he showing enough? Is he doing enough running?
02:33 Is he making enough of the right runs?
02:35 I'm not convinced of that either.
02:37 So it's the same old story, really.
02:39 And when you take Jack Clarke out of that team, it's going to be difficult
02:41 for them to score alongside Patrick Roberts as well, who's a big threat.
02:46 You know, the stats you've read out there,
02:48 I think they sort of only paint half the picture
02:51 because I thought Leicester could have been out of sight
02:53 maybe in the first 20, 30 minutes.
02:55 Obviously, they had a fair few opportunities
02:57 and I actually thought Sunderland were going to get overwhelmed pretty quickly.
03:00 Not really sure what happened to Leicester in the second half.
03:02 I think Sunderland did improve a little bit.
03:05 I know they've got a few injuries in the middle
03:07 and I think they were on a three-game losing streak themselves.
03:10 So maybe that crept into their head a little bit.
03:12 But I never really felt like Sunderland were going to equalise, to be honest.
03:20 I thought the improvement was good and it was marked
03:24 and they did show some good spirit.
03:26 But I just felt like Leicester sort of held Sunderland at arm's length
03:29 for the most part and looked pretty dangerous on the break.
03:33 Shout out to Anthony Patterson, really,
03:34 because he pulled off some really, really good serves at times.
03:38 I think, as you said there, the stats do tell kind of half of the story
03:42 because Leicester had something to hang on to for most of the game.
03:45 And it is easy to forget that they had lost three games in a row.
03:48 There would have been some nerves there.
03:49 They needed to win last night and they had something to hang on to
03:52 for most of the game after that goal from Vardy in the 13th minute.
03:57 But just going back to the kind of striker situation,
04:00 Mike Dodds stuck with Jemma yesterday,
04:02 his second successive start after he started against Norwich.
04:07 And I'm sure I've mentioned this on the podcast before,
04:10 of last season when I spoke to Corey Evans and Ross Stewart and Ellis Sims
04:15 were starting the season really strongly last season.
04:17 And he said for the other players in the team,
04:20 those two, Stewart and Sims, could make a bad pass into a good pass.
04:24 Now I just feel with Sunderland now,
04:26 they don't have those players up front that can kind of relieve
04:30 the pressure off the rest of the team and can make something happen
04:33 out of nothing. That may be kind of harsh on Hamir
04:36 because he's just come in and he's been asked to do a job
04:39 when he's got very limited championship experience.
04:42 But for me in the games that I've seen for the 21s
04:44 and for Sunderland's first team in the championship,
04:47 he doesn't quite look ready to make an impact at championship level.
04:51 I think Roosin out of the kind of strikers that Sunderland have got
04:54 has shown the most. I think that he's busy,
04:57 he gives good work rates to the team, he works hard and kind of harries people
05:01 and gives a bit more, but doesn't maybe seem like that natural fit
05:05 for a centre forward. He seems more of a wide forward.
05:07 And it's a difficult dilemma that Mike Dodds has got now
05:09 because does he stick with Hamir? Does he give him a run of games?
05:12 He's had two now, but for me, he's not quite looked ready.
05:15 Does he go back to Roosin? Does he go back to Berstow, who hasn't had a start,
05:19 I think, under Mike Dodds in the games that he's taken charge of?
05:23 Does he put Joe Beddingham up there? It's a tricky one now,
05:26 kind of what you do between now and the end of the season
05:28 in terms of who he does play in that forward role, isn't it?
05:32 Yeah, I don't want to be too much of a hypocrite on this issue, really,
05:34 because I was one of these saying that it would be good
05:37 for a striker at Sunderland to get a run of games.
05:41 So, you know, I find it hard to go back on myself
05:44 and really, you know, dig Hamir out, but I do think he has been poor.
05:48 You've seen a lot of him for the under-21s as well, Joe,
05:51 but I think in the Championship, especially, like, you need to hold the ball up.
05:54 That's something that Ross Stewart did really well.
05:56 Ellis Sims did it well at times.
05:58 They both ran the channels, Ross Stewart more so than Ellis Sims.
06:02 They both ran the channels at the right times and it would alleviate pressure.
06:05 I think that's an underrated part of your defence is your offence.
06:09 So Ross Stewart could hold the ball up, he could hurry down players.
06:13 Thinking of that goal he scored against Sheffield Wednesday,
06:15 the first leg of the play-off semi-final, he did that from nothing.
06:17 Just sheer perseverance, work rate, but also knowing the right time,
06:21 having that instinct to smell that there could be something on.
06:24 I don't think Hamir has that at the moment.
06:26 He's only 20 years old, so hopefully he might come to it a little bit later.
06:30 But I think in terms of getting up the pitch, getting a foothold in games,
06:35 you do need your striker, especially when he's a big lad, to hold the ball up.
06:39 And he just doesn't seem to do that.
06:41 There's no respite for the midfield, there's no respite for the defender,
06:45 there's no real outlet.
06:47 But you could flip that as well and say, does Sunderland really play that way?
06:50 Does Sunderland really want to give the ball to Hamir?
06:53 Do they trust him enough to give him it?
06:55 As I said, they don't play to his feet.
06:58 When Roosan's on the field, it's frustrating because he makes the runs in behind.
07:03 He doesn't necessarily run the channels as much when he's playing through the middle,
07:06 but he makes the runs in behind.
07:09 But then Sunderland don't play in behind very often either.
07:12 So it's really frustrating.
07:13 Obviously, Roberts as well, when he's played this season,
07:17 he's great at getting balls across that six-yard box.
07:20 There's not been many runners to the front post this season for Sunderland.
07:24 So it's all very disjointed.
07:26 I think being a centre-forward, you do need experience.
07:30 Just off the top of my head, thinking about some of the loans that Harry Kane had,
07:33 I think he was at Millwall, Leicester...
07:36 Norwich.
07:36 Norwich as well.
07:37 He didn't set the world alight, and it does take a while.
07:40 I'm not saying Hamiyah's going to be Harry Kane levels,
07:42 but in the EFL and the Championship, it's really difficult.
07:46 The defenders are wise.
07:48 It's a tough league.
07:49 It's physical.
07:50 And he's sort of having to mature on the job at the moment.
07:53 But in terms of Sunderland right now, is he the best fit to be starting?
07:56 I'm not sure, but Sunderland have invested in him.
07:59 Six figures, we thought, in the summer.
08:01 So it's really interesting.
08:02 And then there's the other argument.
08:05 You know, Roosan, is he more of a wide forward rather than a striker?
08:08 I would suggest probably yes.
08:10 Mason Birstow, do you want to play him when he's actually not your player?
08:15 You may as well give one of the lads that you actually own a run.
08:17 So I think it's indicative of where Sunderland are at the moment.
08:22 All eyes on recruitment.
08:23 But it's such a long-standing problem now, that striker situation,
08:27 that it just has to be sorted in the summer, doesn't it?
08:30 It just has to be sorted with quality, or somebody's got to improve.
08:34 Depth of experience options, it's just an issue that won't go away,
08:38 but it really needs to.
08:41 Just going back to that kind of the defensive side of the game as well,
08:44 it's now 10 league games without a clean sheet.
08:46 I think, as I mentioned before, having that striker who can just hold the ball up,
08:49 who can relieve some pressure, who can make something out of nothing,
08:52 that can help.
08:53 It's not to say that the defence are completely blameless for some of the goals
08:56 that they've conceded, but I think that obviously can help.
08:59 You can defend from the front.
09:01 But just in terms of how Mike Dodds approached the game yesterday
09:05 against Leicester, the league leaders, who, as we said, had lost three in a row.
09:09 It seemed like he went man for man around the pitch,
09:11 definitely out of possession, switched to a back five.
09:15 It seemed like as well, with Jenson Sealt keeping his place and Luka O'Neill
09:19 and Dan Ballard playing alongside him.
09:21 But we often saw them stepping out into midfield to go with their man.
09:25 And that man-to-man marking system was clearly something that Sunderland had deployed.
09:29 How do you reflect on how Dodds approached the game?
09:33 It seemed maybe quite similar to when Sunderland beat Leeds back in December,
09:37 when Mike Dodds was in charge.
09:38 That seemed to be the approach that he took to put men behind the ball
09:42 and hit Leicester on the counter-attack at times.
09:44 But as we mentioned before, Sunderland didn't have Jack Clarke,
09:47 they didn't have Patrick Roberts to come off the bench,
09:49 and didn't maybe have that attacking output to come on and change the game
09:54 and to hurt Leicester, even though they were defending in numbers.
09:57 I found some things online really disingenuous, actually,
10:00 because I've seen some comments saying,
10:02 'What formation was Sunderland playing?'
10:04 You can't tell, it's really hard to tell.
10:05 To be honest, I actually thought it was really easy to tell.
10:07 It was a flat-back five, pretty much, with the wing-backs
10:10 getting a little bit further forward.
10:11 And then it was a flat four in the middle.
10:13 Chris Rigg was on the right, Joe Bellingham was mostly on the left.
10:17 Yes, in the second half, it did get a little bit more chaotic
10:20 as Sunderland were chasing a goal, which is what you'd expect.
10:22 Substitutes coming on and off games do tend to get messy,
10:25 but I actually thought it was really obvious what Mike Dodds thought to do.
10:28 I thought the formation was really obvious.
10:30 Whether it worked is a completely different question.
10:34 What I will say, and it again goes back to the striking issue,
10:37 I think Sunderland did set out to do two banks of four initially,
10:42 but the gap between that four in midfield and Hemi was absolutely...
10:47 To the point where if Sunderland wanted to play to Hemi,
10:49 they probably wouldn't have been able to anyway.
10:52 So, a very strange sort of disconnect there for me.
10:57 And again, you mentioned, Joe, it is about personnel.
10:59 I mean, Clarke would have really helped the team, so would have Roberts.
11:03 Again, I think I mentioned on the podcast last week,
11:05 it does feel like a perfect storm in that regard.
11:08 So, I didn't really have many problems with the way Mike Dodds
11:12 sort of set up against Leicester.
11:14 And barring the first sort of 20, 30 minutes,
11:17 I thought that they sort of grew into the game.
11:18 Sunderland, I'm hesitant to overly praise them because,
11:23 you know, I didn't really think Sunderland should get anything out of the game,
11:26 but there were positives in a sense that I could see the tactical plan,
11:29 yet it didn't really work, but the mitigating circumstances and factors.
11:34 But I think for me as well as that, and I mentioned this on the Whistle video
11:39 that we do on YouTube after the matches,
11:40 that I can still see that the Sunderland players are still sort of fighting
11:44 and they're still at it, if that makes sense.
11:46 Yes, they're not performing probably to the levels they'd like,
11:50 but they still seem motivated.
11:51 They still seem hungry.
11:53 They're still running.
11:54 Yes, they're making a few mistakes, but it doesn't feel to me, Joe,
11:58 like, you know, we've watched bad teams
12:02 and it doesn't feel to me like they've gone, like they lost.
12:05 If you know what I mean, it still feels like there's a willingness there.
12:08 Obviously, you speak to the players most week as well.
12:11 So, what would your thoughts be, having spoken to them?
12:13 They don't seem sort of downtrodden and downcast.
12:17 I think you could spin that both ways, or couldn't you?
12:19 You could say that that's good, that the heads haven't dropped,
12:22 or you could also say that it's a little bit deluded as well,
12:25 because if Sunderland don't start improving soon,
12:28 then they're nine points off the bottom three.
12:31 So, it's really interesting.
12:32 But what does the dressing room feel like to you at the moment
12:35 from the time you get with them?
12:37 Well, we spoke to Jenson Seal yesterday after the game.
12:40 He was the player that the club put up for the post-match media duties.
12:44 And he was obviously kind of a bit dejected from the result,
12:47 but he was kind of trying to reiterate that message of,
12:50 we're trying to stay positive.
12:51 We're a young group.
12:53 We are trying to stay positive in the dressing room.
12:55 And the positive was, I think, that Sunderland didn't go under
12:58 when they went down, conceded that early goal when Jamie Vardy
13:01 put Leicester ahead 13 minutes in.
13:03 And you felt like if this continues, it could be kind of quite a high-scoring game
13:08 and it could be quite demoralising for Sunderland.
13:10 And it could have been like that in the Swansea game.
13:12 I felt where Swansea were getting a lot of chances,
13:14 it could have been kind of 4-0 at half-time.
13:16 And Sunderland were quite fortunate it was only two
13:18 and then ended up with a 2-1 defeat, which didn't look as bad.
13:21 I didn't feel that was the case against Leicester last night,
13:24 aside from the first 15 minutes.
13:26 I thought Sunderland did react well.
13:28 Leicester didn't create as many chances after that first kind of 15-minute spell
13:31 where they were very good.
13:33 They were moving the ball around well, as you'd expect from the championship leaders.
13:36 But that was a positive for me from a Sunderland point of view,
13:39 that it is, as we've mentioned before, a young squad with limited championship experience.
13:45 And they reacted well.
13:46 And it seems to be in the dressing room, but they are staying positive.
13:48 I mean, the last five games, as we mentioned before,
13:51 they've only lost by the one goal.
13:52 It's not like Sunderland are losing three and four.
13:54 And it's getting really kind of embarrassing and very difficult for the young squad out there.
13:59 They are reacting.
14:00 They are sticking in games and could have easily had more points on the board
14:04 from the last five games than they have done.
14:05 So it is frustrating.
14:07 And I think, as we mentioned before, it's kind of in both boxes,
14:09 kind of giving away the odd goal and then just not having that attacking threat
14:13 to outscore teams right now.
14:15 But I wanted to move on to one of the positives from last night,
14:18 which was Chris Rigg, who made his first championship start.
14:22 As you mentioned, he kind of played in more of a wider midfield position
14:25 with kind of a flat four in midfield.
14:28 And the width was kind of coming from the wing backs.
14:31 How well that works, kind of, you can debate that.
14:34 But Rigg, I thought, played really well.
14:37 I thought he was one of the positives.
14:39 Didn't look out of place against less midfield that had Harry Winks,
14:42 Keone and Dewsbury Hall, players that have been kind of established Premier League players.
14:46 And I thought he was really good last night, kind of got into tackles,
14:50 but wasn't afraid to take on the positive option, try and move the ball forward,
14:54 try and carry the ball.
14:56 So what did you make of his performance?
14:58 Yeah, really good, really positive, really strong.
15:00 I think, you know, two of the biggest compliments that you can give him
15:04 is that he's sort of 16, and you don't really think about that when he's playing.
15:09 I think that's very telling.
15:11 You know, his quality on the ball is really obvious.
15:15 I do think you have to be careful with him, obviously.
15:17 You don't want to overexpose him.
15:19 I think we've sort of seen that with Joe Bellingham now.
15:21 He's playing too much football.
15:23 I don't think we're anywhere near that with Chris Rigg yet.
15:25 So I'm looking forward to seeing him start more games in the future.
15:29 You know, playing in the middle of the park is difficult.
15:31 Yes, he was more towards the right, but he did drift in when Sunderland were in possession.
15:36 A few stray passes with obviously Tre Hulme was on his side
15:40 in the beginning of the game, but they managed to get that sorted.
15:44 And, you know, my dad said after the game that they didn't really want to take Chris Rigg off
15:48 because he was actually affecting the game.
15:50 Now, that is a huge compliment at 16 years old.
15:54 Yeah, he's a real talent, and I think we're going to see a lot more of him
15:59 because Sunderland need to play him, really, to have any chance of keeping him.
16:02 He can go where he wants in the summer.
16:05 He could have gone where he wanted quite recently,
16:07 but he chose to stay at Sunderland because he believes that he'll play
16:11 and that he'd rather play in Sunderland's first team than Liverpool's under-21s
16:16 or Bayern Munich's under-21s because there's a pathway at Sunderland.
16:19 So, yeah, really good to see him sort of get that first start under his belt.
16:24 Didn't look out of place at all.
16:26 And I think what's pleasing as well is that he always seems to want the ball.
16:30 When those couple of passes went astray down the right-hand side at the beginning of the game,
16:34 you thought, 'Oh dear, hopefully this isn't a recurring theme in the middle of the park.'
16:39 Because players with a certain mentality couldn't go down under those circumstances.
16:44 But it didn't seem to bother him.
16:45 He was just like, 'Right, OK, crack on. I'll still try the next pass.'
16:48 And I think that's a hugely important quality to have in a youngster.
16:52 And the second thing as well, another compliment, is that at times in the second half,
16:57 you were just thinking, 'Just give the ball to Rik. Just give the ball to him.'
17:01 And I think he could potentially make something happen because he's got that quality.
17:05 So, yeah, very, very exciting.
17:08 And what a story it's been, really, from the FA Cup debut against Shrewsbury Town,
17:14 playing against Fulham, scoring this season against Southampton,
17:17 and then playing against the Southampton crew, Alexander.
17:22 I think that's his 11th or 12th... No, sorry.
17:25 Yeah, it'll be 13 or 14 appearances for Sunderland in total.
17:29 I think 11 in the league this season.
17:30 So, yeah, really impressive.
17:33 Can't wait to see more of him as the season goes on.
17:36 Yeah, I think he's going to play a lot more in the remainder of the season.
17:41 Looking at the table now, Sunderland 10 points off the Championship.
17:43 That could be more after tonight's game.
17:46 But understanding where they are,
17:48 and they're going to have to blood in these younger players.
17:52 Chris Rigg being one of them.
17:53 And I think people will need to understand that he is going to have dips in form.
17:57 You look at Dan Neal, he's had dips in form, and now he's a first team regular.
18:01 You look at Joe Bellingham this season,
18:03 obviously, it's probably his first season playing consistently, week in, week out.
18:07 Still only 18. Chris Rigg is 16.
18:10 Of course, they're going to have dips in form.
18:11 And, yeah, they're going to have to...
18:13 That's how they learn, and that's how they bounce back.
18:15 And kind of establish themselves as first team regulars.
18:19 But looking forward to kind of seeing more of Chris Rigg,
18:22 I think, for the remaining 10 games of the season.
18:25 Another player that I thought looked bright yesterday
18:28 is Adil Ashish, who came off the bench for the kind of...
18:31 It was kind of the final half an hour, wasn't it, that he came on.
18:35 And that's after Mike Dodds had made some comments.
18:36 He was asked about him in his pre-match press conference
18:38 and said that Ashish had kind of improved his focus and concentration
18:43 over recent weeks.
18:45 And I think you can see when you watch him,
18:46 he's clearly got a lot of technical ability.
18:50 Won't have played as much as he would have wanted to
18:52 since he's moved in the summer.
18:54 He made that mistake against Ipswich,
18:56 or kind of a couple of mistakes when he missed a good chance
18:58 and then gave away the free kick.
18:59 And it almost seemed like he maybe wasn't blamed for that,
19:02 but he kind of took a lot of the responsibility for that.
19:05 And then hadn't really...
19:07 We hadn't really seen him much since that Ipswich game back in January.
19:10 But he came off the bench yesterday.
19:12 I thought he looked really bright.
19:13 He gave Sunderland the threat from set pieces,
19:15 gave them more of an attacking threat,
19:17 kind of was driving into Leicester's box.
19:20 So I wouldn't be surprised if he kind of got recalls to the team
19:23 against Southampton on Saturday.
19:24 What do you think about him?
19:26 Yeah, I think with Ashish, I think in all honesty,
19:31 I think he's been poorly managed in his time at Sunderland so far.
19:34 I think it's probably been tough for him.
19:36 He signed a five-year deal at the club,
19:38 came in under Tony Mowbray,
19:39 was just starting to find his feet,
19:42 showed some flashes of real quality.
19:45 Tony Mowbray then leaves the club.
19:48 Michael Beale comes in.
19:49 He plays against Ipswich Town, as you say.
19:51 Michael Beale, let's face it,
19:53 sort of hugged him out to dry really afterwards.
19:56 Then he's nowhere to be seen for months.
19:59 I know he, I think, did he have maybe an injury niggle as well
20:02 in that time somewhere as well?
20:04 So, yeah, I've got no doubt that maybe there was a little something
20:08 behind the scenes, as Mike Dodds has alluded to,
20:10 with attitude and application and stuff.
20:13 But given the churn at the club, I sort of can forgive him,
20:17 if you know what I mean, with him being so young as well.
20:20 He's clearly got immense quality.
20:22 On Boxing Day, Michael Beale brought him on against Hull City
20:25 on the right-hand side.
20:26 I don't think that's his best position.
20:27 I think his best position is as an attack midfielder.
20:30 He set up a chance for Ballard at the end, didn't he?
20:32 With a lovely through ball.
20:34 Just a shame Ballard was on the end of it,
20:36 the player with the least pace in the squad.
20:39 Yeah, but I think he's clearly got bags of quality.
20:44 And, yeah, if he can get his application right,
20:46 I think he could be really important for Sunderland.
20:48 I would, with him, I would like to see him have a run of games as well
20:51 in one position, because he's sort of been in and out of it, hasn't he?
20:54 And then, as I mentioned, he's been on the right.
20:56 He sort of played off the left yesterday, didn't he,
20:58 when he came on for periods?
21:00 He can play through the middle.
21:01 So, yeah, give him a run of games.
21:03 Give him a run of games in one position.
21:05 And hopefully that bears fruit.
21:07 Yeah, the thing is, I think,
21:08 Bellingham's obviously been playing more in that number 10 position,
21:10 hasn't he, regularly?
21:11 So it's been kind of hard for Ashish to break into the team.
21:14 But just quickly, do you think it was a penalty at the end on Ballard?
21:16 You mentioned that.
21:17 I mean, when I first saw it, I thought he's looking for it.
21:20 And then looking back, I think, I think Chowdhury puts his hand on Ballard's
21:24 shoulder, which kind of gives... I don't think he needed to do that.
21:27 That kind of was... gave the referee a decision to make, if you like.
21:30 But I still think Ballard was looking for it and wasn't going to reach the ball
21:34 for it because the goalkeeper.
21:35 Yeah, I think there's a clear arm on the shoulder.
21:38 And I think Ballard maybe just enacts his theatrics
21:41 a couple of milliseconds too early.
21:44 So he's felt the contact and he's gone down like a sack of spuds hasn't he, let's face it.
21:47 If that was given against Sunderland, we'd all be absolutely livid
21:51 because he would have bought it.
21:52 So I think on balance, it was probably the right decision by the referee,
21:55 who I actually thought had a decent game, to be honest.
21:57 I think he has gone down too easily.
22:00 Yes, there's contact on the shoulder, but big, big lad like Dan Ballard
22:03 shouldn't be going down.
22:04 Perhaps he just should have waited.
22:05 I know it's very easy for me to say in front of my laptop screen
22:08 with a bag of Doritos behind the camera that maybe in that split second,
22:12 he should have just tried to continue his run a little bit longer
22:15 and maybe sort of see how that panned out,
22:19 whether Choudhury kept hold or whether he could have got the shot off.
22:24 Maybe the ball was just running a little bit too far away,
22:25 but I didn't really have too many complaints.
22:28 I think he did go down very easily.
22:30 I could understand why he did it.
22:31 He's maybe thinking, 'Well, I'm not getting to that.
22:34 And if I do get to it, it's a tight angle.
22:36 I'm a defender. I'm probably not going to score it.'
22:38 And he's trying to win his team a penalty and draw the game.
22:42 So I can understand why he'd done it, but no real major complaints.
22:45 I didn't think it was a stonewaller.
22:48 Certainly don't think it's anything to get too upset about.
22:51 And yes, I suppose a lesson, really, that he overdid it with the theatrics, didn't he?
22:55 And that's probably what actually made the referee's mind up for him.
22:58 I think if he doesn't go with the theatrics and sort of fling himself to the ground,
23:03 I think he's got a better chance of getting up.
23:05 Hmm. Well, Ballard was one of the players that came back into the side yesterday.
23:10 He'd just served his two-match suspension for picking up 10 yellow cards.
23:14 Now, Luko Neyen has picked up his 10th yellow card,
23:16 and he's going to be suspended against Southampton and QPR.
23:21 So you'd imagine that Sunderland would then possibly go back to a back four
23:25 with Seal keeping his place alongside Ballard.
23:29 We've said before, it's a good thing that Ballard and O-9 weren't suspended at the same time,
23:33 otherwise there would have been a big dilemma for Mike Dodds.
23:36 But O-9, no doubt, was going to be a big loss.
23:39 Mike Dodds was asked about it yesterday in his post-match press conference
23:43 and kind of said, "Well, I can't really catch a break at the minute.
23:45 He's lost Patrick Roberts. He's lost Jack Clark.
23:47 He's lost Dan Ballard for two games.
23:49 Now he's going to lose his captain, Luko Neyen."
23:52 And that's going to be big in terms of kind of the leadership,
23:55 as we mentioned, in a young group, O-9 is the kind of main leader there.
23:59 And we've mentioned that people like Dan Ballard, like Dan Neal have stepped up,
24:03 but still going to be a huge loss, isn't it, having no O-9 for the next two games?
24:08 Yeah, it is. I thought O-9 quietly had a good game again yesterday.
24:12 He does progress the ball out from the back.
24:14 Is he the most natural defender in the world? No, but he's got great courage.
24:18 I think he's developed instincts as well since he's been playing at centre-back.
24:22 I don't know what Mike Dodds will do with it in regards to 4 or 5,
24:26 but just sort of spitballing, I thought Yelder struggled at left wing-back.
24:30 I'm not sure that's his best position.
24:32 He looks to me like he could be a long-term centre-back option rather than a...
24:36 What he has said before, that he prefers playing centre-back when he first arrived.
24:40 Exactly. So I'm just wondering, is there scope for him to come into the middle
24:45 and either Hume goes out to the left and you play Pembele
24:49 or Callum Stiles goes to left wing-back, which is what he was brought to the club as, so we thought.
24:55 So there are a few options there, but again, as Mike Dodds mentioned, he looked...
25:00 I hope he doesn't mind me saying this, but he looked a bit depressed really
25:03 when he was listing through all of the things that he'd had to put up with since coming to the club.
25:08 Obviously Ballard suspended, Neal out... Sorry, not Neal out, Clark out, he's had Roberts out.
25:15 He hasn't got Alissi to call on, Sjokund's unavailable, Huggins is unavailable.
25:20 There's all sorts he's had to put up with. So, yeah, I did feel for him.
25:24 But I think, and again, what's underrated about Lugo 9 in the Sunderland squad is his experience as well.
25:31 Obviously, he's got a lot of experience in the Championship, a lot of experience in the EFL.
25:34 He's one of the only real players in that team with a great deal of experience.
25:40 In terms of his age as well, he is a leader in that group.
25:42 So, yet another blow and Southampton away from home will be a tough game.
25:47 They'll want to reverse their fixture at the Stadium of Light earlier in the season,
25:53 the day after the summer deadline, obviously when they got thumped.
25:56 They've barely lost a game since then, have they, under Russell Martin?
25:59 Well, they have lost three of their last five.
26:02 Three of their last five, but they went 21 unbeaten or something, didn't they? Ridiculous.
26:07 So, yeah, obviously they've got a lot to play for.
26:09 It just feels like we don't really have a lot to play for.
26:12 What's your thoughts, Joe, on the like...
26:15 Because there's chat about relegation now for Sunderland.
26:17 Do you think Sunderland have a realistic chance of being dragged into that?
26:20 Because I just look at the table and I think, yes, it's nine points,
26:24 but it does rely a lot on other teams improving.
26:26 Too many teams.
26:27 It does rely a lot on other teams improving, but if Sunderland don't pick up soon,
26:32 you do start to lose confidence and you start that slow march towards the bottom of the table, don't you?
26:38 You've got to be careful because if you can turn around and everybody can be really optimistic
26:42 and see all the performances are there.
26:44 Leicester, we limited Leicester at 0.01xG in the second half and all this stuff.
26:48 And then three weeks later, you can be looking over your shoulder thinking,
26:51 hang on a minute, Sheffield Wednesday have really improved under Danny Roe and we're struggling.
26:57 So I can sort of see both sides of the argument.
27:02 Yeah, I don't think Sunderland are in a relegation battle.
27:04 I think there are too many teams down there, too many teams below them.
27:08 And it's not like Sunderland are losing 3-4-0.
27:11 We've mentioned that the last five games they have been tight.
27:14 They've lost by one goal.
27:16 And I think Sunderland will, you know, they'll pick up enough points to stay up.
27:21 Clearly now they are closer to the relegation zone than they are to the playoffs.
27:25 And it does feel like the season's kind of just been drifting the last few weeks
27:28 and it may do for the next few weeks.
27:31 But I think there's too many teams down there for Sunderland to be caught, to be honest.
27:35 I don't know what your thoughts on that?
27:38 Yeah, I don't know.
27:40 I'm just, I'm always erring on the side of caution when it comes to Sunderland.
27:43 I always sort of expect the worst.
27:45 I think I've been conditioned that way over many years,
27:47 sort of covering the club and being a fan as well.
27:50 So it honestly wouldn't surprise me.
27:52 But I do tend to agree.
27:54 I'm just looking at the championship table now.
27:56 Obviously, Roller is incredibly tight.
27:58 I mean, there's how many teams on 38 right now?
28:02 Yeah, there's, hang on, let me just count.
28:03 There's Sheffield Wednesday, Stoke City, Huddersfield Town, QBR on 38
28:08 and then Birmingham on 39.
28:11 The three teams above them, Millwall, Rovers and Argyle, they're on 40.
28:16 So there's really not a lot on it.
28:18 There is a cushion, as you say, between sort of the bottom and Sunderland at the moment.
28:22 And you look at the teams and you think Rotherham are gone, Sheffield Wednesday are in prison.
28:26 I think they've won four of the last five.
28:29 Stoke City look pretty dreadful when we've played them.
28:32 Are they going to improve enough?
28:33 Can't see it. Huddersfield Town, they look poor, QBR look poor.
28:36 Birmingham have sort of had a little bit of a renaissance, won the last two.
28:40 You've got to remember that some of these teams have got to play each other.
28:42 So they're not all going to win at the same time.
28:44 I was just about to come on to that.
28:45 So it does seem unlikely, but I think it's just one of those that, you know,
28:48 stranger things have happened, haven't they?
28:50 I think if anything, it's more indicative of how this season's gone
28:55 that we now are sort of closer to the relegation places than we are the playoff places,
29:00 given that the idea that when Tony Mowbray was sacked was to sort of push on, really.
29:07 So it's been quite the fall, really, hasn't it, I suppose?
29:13 Well, moving on, it doesn't get any easier, as you mentioned.
29:15 It is Southampton away this weekend on Saturday.
29:19 As we said before, they have lost three of the last five league games,
29:22 but they are still in with a shot of getting in the top two.
29:27 They're playing tonight. We're recording this on Wednesday.
29:29 So if they beat... They're playing Preston tonight.
29:31 So if they win that one, they would move back closer to the top two.
29:34 So big game for them.
29:37 In terms of the changes that Sunderland can make,
29:39 obviously Luco Nynes is going to have to drop out.
29:42 That could mean Sunderland go back to a back four.
29:45 I would expect probably... We've mentioned Hamir before.
29:48 I'd think maybe Roosin would come back in,
29:52 just looking at some of the other changes that could be made.
29:55 Oshish, we've talked about, is probably pushing for a start now.
29:59 What sort of changes do you see Mike Dodds making for that Southampton game?
30:04 So I think he'll go Pat O'Hume, Stiles, Ballard, Sealt.
30:11 So you think Stiles will come back in?
30:13 Yeah, and I think he might go Yalda in the middle.
30:16 I think the midfielder will keep the same.
30:20 And then I think Roosin.
30:22 Will he persist with Rigg, Joe? Do you think he'll persist with Rigg?
30:25 I think he'll...
30:27 I say persist with Rigg like he's had a bad game,
30:29 but what I mean is, will he play Rigg for a second consecutive start?
30:33 I think that's a question.
30:34 You'd want Oshish to come in somewhere.
30:37 I think Hamir has to drop out for me.
30:38 He just didn't offer enough.
30:40 And just looking at Southampton's team,
30:42 they played Birmingham, the 1-4-3.
30:44 Their front three is terrifying.
30:45 It's absolutely terrifying.
30:47 Shea Adams, Adam Armstrong and David Brooks.
30:50 That's serious firepower, lad.
30:53 Yeah, and yet Sunderland beat them 5-0 at the Stadium of Light.
30:56 But yeah, a lot has changed since then.
30:59 Before this run of three games in a week,
31:03 I thought Joe Bellingham might get a rest.
31:06 As much of a key player he's been for Sunderland this season.
31:10 But then Mike Dodds went and said that he doesn't see him as being tired
31:13 before the Leicester game.
31:14 He has started against Leicester, he started against Norwich.
31:17 So he was maybe one that I thought could maybe get a rest in this run of three,
31:20 but maybe it doesn't look like that now.
31:24 Oshish played well, but could he come in for Bellingham?
31:26 Could they both play?
31:28 That's going to be an interesting one.
31:29 I think he'll stick with Rigg.
31:31 It's interesting, the Bellingham situation and Sunderland's reluctance
31:36 to drop him, they want to keep playing him.
31:38 I was watching the overlap with Roy Keane, Gary Neville-Ainwright,
31:43 Jill Scott, Jamie Carragher, and they had Oli Guder-Solshire on.
31:46 He was talking about having Jude Bellingham-Job's brother
31:51 at Old Trafford as a 17-year-old trying to sign him.
31:55 He said he'd never met a young player who was so clear about
32:01 the minutes he wanted to play.
32:02 Obviously, his family were there and stuff like that.
32:04 It was like, "No, he needs to play this amount of minutes.
32:06 That has to be guaranteed.
32:09 This is my career.
32:11 This is how I want it to go.
32:11 I want it mapped out."
32:12 It's very interesting, isn't it, hearing that the Bellinghams and Jude
32:17 and Job have such clear thoughts on their career.
32:20 You just wonder if it's right for him to be playing so many minutes
32:26 at the moment.
32:26 Does he need just two or three games out?
32:28 I really like Job.
32:29 I think some of the criticism he's come in for has been unnecessary.
32:34 He showed real glimpses of quality.
32:36 This season, people forget he's only 18, approaching 31, 32
32:42 Championship games this season.
32:44 I think he's been an asset for Sunderland.
32:46 His signing has been a net positive.
32:48 But I think he just does need to come out of it for a little bit
32:52 because you can overexpose a player.
32:54 I don't think his performances have been massively off it at all.
32:58 I just think maybe sometimes you just do need to come and sit down,
33:01 which Mowbray was prepared to do once or twice, actually.
33:05 I just thought the last game that he came out of the side was the Plymouth game,
33:08 wasn't it?
33:09 He started on the bench and he came on and he looked fresh
33:14 and he scored that goal.
33:15 I think he set up another one.
33:17 He looked re-energised when he came off the bench in that game.
33:21 That coming out of the starting XI seemed to do him good.
33:25 As we mentioned before, it is his first season,
33:28 playing week in, week out in the Championship.
33:30 That's a big ask for an 18-year-old, as well as he's done in his first season.
33:35 Mike Dodd seemed to suggest that he was ready to keep going.
33:39 It wouldn't be a surprise if he kept his place against Southampton.
33:44 I don't think there's many young players of his age at the moment,
33:48 this season, who've played like 35 matches.
33:50 I don't think any of us thought he would play this much at the start of the season.
33:53 No, no, absolutely not.
33:55 I think Archie Great leads.
33:57 He's still only 17.
33:58 He's played a lot of football, but typically you don't tend to play 18-year-olds this much.
34:02 I think it's a compliment and a credit to him.
34:05 What I mean by the Oli Gunnar Solskjaer point I'm raising,
34:08 I don't think he's there because of some sort of secret agreement,
34:11 but I think it actually shows how highly he's rated and how high his talent is rated
34:16 by the coach and stuff at Sunderland.
34:18 They keep persisting with him when maybe he needs to have a break
34:22 and how highly they value him to the team.
34:25 But it is interesting.
34:26 I would have given him a break long before now, to be honest.
34:30 Well, Sunderland's next game, as we mentioned, is away at Southampton this weekend.
34:35 They will then have one more game at home against QPR
34:38 before the international break.
34:40 So 10 games left this season in the Championship.
34:42 Sunderland looking to get their season back on track.
34:46 James, thanks a lot for joining me on the latest episode of the RAW podcast.
34:51 We'll have all the build up, as always, over on the SAFC section of the Sunderland Echo website.
34:57 And we'll have live updates analysis from that game at St Mary's, Sunderland,
35:02 take on Southampton.
35:03 So once again, thanks a lot for listening to the RAW podcast.
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