Echo writers Joe Nicholson and Phil Smith discuss Sunderland's January transfer business after a busy deadline
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00:10 Hello and welcome to the Raw podcast brought to you by the Sunderland Echo.
00:26 My name is Joe Nicholson and I'm joined by my fellow Sunderland writer,
00:30 Phil Smith, following the end of the January transfer window.
00:34 And it was a busy end to the window for Sunderland in the end with a couple of new
00:38 signings and some departures as well.
00:42 Phil, how are you feeling after all of that yesterday?
00:44 >> Yeah, quite tired as people can probably tell if they're watching this.
00:49 So apologies if I look a little worse away.
00:51 Yeah, it was a long day.
00:52 It was a bit of a mixed day, I think.
00:55 I think obviously, the business that Sunderland's done looks pretty solid to me.
00:59 They've obviously added some exciting talent as well.
01:02 But it definitely didn't have that final flourish, didn't it?
01:05 I think most fans were pretty happy with the business that had been done.
01:09 But I think everybody was hoping that maybe that player who you felt could really
01:13 shift the needle and turn this into a proper sort of top six contender,
01:19 if you like, never really arrived, obviously with Keith and Morgan going to
01:22 whip switch and Ahmad staying at Man United, which of course,
01:26 we all knew was likely to happen.
01:28 But I think everyone hoped maybe Sunderland could pull a rabbit out of the hat.
01:30 So yeah, in the end, it was a fairly, it was a busy window, but
01:35 it wasn't one that's really transformed Sunderland's prospects, I don't think.
01:39 I think they've added some exciting young players to the group as they kind of
01:43 always do.
01:44 But the interesting thing about it is that I don't think it's gonna change.
01:47 So Michael Beale's starting 11 a great deal in the weeks ahead.
01:50 So yeah, quite a difficult window to assess.
01:53 I think there'll be some mixed opinions out there today.
01:56 Some excitement about the players that come in, and
01:58 maybe a little bit of disappointment when you see the likes of Ipswich and
02:01 Hull City really seemingly push the boat out.
02:04 You know that Sunderland haven't been able to bring in that caliber of experience,
02:08 so championship campaigner.
02:10 But we know they're high risk, high reward deals.
02:12 And yeah, Sunderland have almost doubled down on what they do.
02:16 >> Mm-hm, I'll just start by reading out the list of the deals that did get done in
02:21 January from Sunderland.
02:22 So it was three new signings.
02:24 Leo Yelder came in from Leeds and winger Romain Mundell came in from Standard Liège.
02:29 They were both permanent deals.
02:31 Callum Stiles joined Sunderland from Barnsley.
02:33 That was a loan with an option to buy.
02:36 And then in terms of outgoings, Alex Pritchard signed for
02:39 Birmingham on a permanent deal.
02:41 And there were a few loan departures as well.
02:43 Julius van Bennet, Eliza Maienda, Nectar Triantis,
02:47 Jay Matete, and Jack Diamond all leaving on loan.
02:51 So you touched on it there.
02:52 Do you think it leaves Sunderland in a stronger position than at the start of
02:56 the month or with Pritchard going, they've lost a key player there?
02:59 Where do you think it leaves them kind of ahead of the second half of the season?
03:02 >> I think in total, honestly,
03:05 I think it pretty much leaves them where they were at the start of the window.
03:08 I don't think they're noticeably stronger.
03:10 I don't think they're noticeably weaker is my opinion on it.
03:13 I think that I like the addition of Leo Hjelda.
03:18 But obviously he's arriving at the club to kind of initially cover Adriele
03:22 and Dennis Erkin's injury issues.
03:23 So I think that's the sound bit of business,
03:25 a player who has championship experience, but it's not just a short term fix.
03:29 He obviously offers something in the long run as well.
03:32 Stiles, again, we wanted some midfield depth and Stiles brings that.
03:37 Is he kind of the holder midfielder?
03:39 I think a lot of people wanted, he's probably not.
03:41 But I can see that he brings versatility.
03:43 And he's played a huge amount of games international and
03:45 club level now as well to his credit.
03:47 But is he gonna go straight in the team past Neil, Ekwer and Jo?
03:50 I think that's debatable.
03:52 And then obviously, Mundell as well looks to me more like a medium to sort of
03:56 long term signing as we saw with Pierre Ekwer last year,
03:59 where he gets a bit of time to sort of settle in.
04:01 Hopefully start pushing through towards the end of this year and
04:03 then really compete for place next year.
04:05 So I think they've added some good depth and some good versatility and
04:10 some good talent to the squad.
04:12 But I think hand on heart, it's very difficult to say that they're stronger
04:16 than they went into the window.
04:17 I suppose one thing you could say is that while I was one of many really,
04:23 who would have liked to have seen an established striker come in,
04:25 I suppose we have seen some promising signs from Reeson and
04:27 Birstow in the last few weeks.
04:29 And so maybe that situation doesn't look quite as critical as it did
04:32 sort of when we first came into the month.
04:34 But it does put an awful lot of pressure on those two players.
04:37 So, you know, it sounds negative to say Sunderland aren't stronger than
04:41 they were at the start of the window.
04:42 I suppose it is to an extent, and there's obviously reasons for that.
04:46 But yeah, I don't think it's a window that's dramatically changed
04:49 Sunderland's prospects in terms of whether they'll make the top six or not.
04:53 Well, you did mention Kiefer Moore and that was the big disappointment,
04:57 I suppose, that there wasn't another striker that came in.
05:00 We know that Sunderland were interested in a loan deal for Moore,
05:03 but he instead signed for Ipswich, who were ultimately able to pay
05:07 more of his wages.
05:08 Was that ever a deal really from Sunderland's point of view that looked
05:11 on during the window and did they kind of have other targets behind him?
05:15 Yeah, well, I think there's two things to say on that.
05:17 It was definitely a deal they would have liked to have done, I think.
05:21 But at the same time, I think there was an understanding early on
05:26 that realistically, you know, once teams as Ipswich who are willing to invest
05:30 heavily in the squad, whose owners, I think it's fair to say, are prepared to
05:34 underwrite significant losses and take more risks, if you like, in the market.
05:39 I think Sunderland knew at that point that there was always a chance he would
05:41 end up there or elsewhere.
05:43 So there were definitely other targets.
05:45 But the reality of this window is that a lot of championship teams were fighting
05:49 for a very, very small pool of players.
05:50 And of course, what that does is it drives the prices up considerably.
05:53 And what we should say is that, you know, Sunderland weren't the only team
05:56 who struggled to land a striker on deadline day because of the availability
06:01 of players and the cost of players.
06:03 Sunday's opponents, Middlesbrough, I think as well, weren't.
06:05 They were another team who were very, very keen to add another striker if they could.
06:09 But just found that financially, the options just weren't viable and that
06:13 sort of the value additions weren't there.
06:16 So I think it's important when we talk about Sunderland that we say, you know,
06:19 they're not the only club who struggled to find sort of proven players in that
06:23 position and land them.
06:25 There's a lot of clubs in the championship in that boat.
06:28 So, yeah, I think that certainly it's a deal they would have liked to have done.
06:32 I think it's disappointing that they weren't able to compete in the end for that.
06:36 I think everyone understands that the way they are operating is very, very different
06:40 to say a whole city or an Ipswich, you know, you're seeing whole bringing players
06:43 like Ryan Giles is obviously coming in the window.
06:46 These Fabio Carvalho, you know, their losses are going to be significantly
06:52 bigger, I would wager, than Sunderland's.
06:54 And that's sort of the risk that all owners have to weigh up.
06:58 Sunderland's sort of view is that they believe that they can punch above their weight,
07:02 which is something that they've done for the last 18 months to their credit.
07:05 And also that in doing it this way, they limit the risk of being hampered
07:09 significantly in future windows.
07:10 So it's one of those, it's a debate that's going to rumble on.
07:14 This January window certainly hasn't brought an end to that debate and I suspect
07:17 we'll be debating it again in the summer.
07:20 We mentioned the signings that Sunderland did bring in.
07:23 Yelda and Mundell both signing long-term contracts, coming in on permanent deals.
07:29 The Styles one is maybe a more interesting one, coming in on loan with an option
07:33 to buy at the end of the season.
07:35 Is that just to kind of see how he does during the second half of the season
07:38 and then see if he's kind of ready for Sunderland to sign come the summer
07:42 when they maybe kind of will know what division they're in and kind of will know
07:46 Sunderland's ambitions for the next season?
07:49 Yeah, I think there's an element of that.
07:50 I've seen how he goes.
07:51 I think from Sunderland's perspective, he's a player who has established
07:55 a championship level.
07:56 So he's a known quantity, if you like.
07:58 And I think obviously in that window, that was something that they were looking for.
08:03 I think in terms of a loan with an option to buy, I think the situation was
08:07 Styles hasn't played a huge amount for Barnsley this season, just because there
08:11 was so much uncertainty over his future in the summer.
08:13 He's obviously had a bit of illness recently as well, which Sunderland
08:16 mentioned in a statement when they signed him.
08:18 And I think that ultimately, he wants to be playing for Hungary
08:21 in the Euros this summer.
08:23 And so I think for his international prospects, it was really important
08:26 for him to sort of step up the level.
08:28 And I think given the fact that he hasn't, you know, for a lot of reasons,
08:31 featured significantly for Barnsley this year, I think that Barnsley were quite
08:36 happy for him to go and take out that opportunity.
08:38 From Barnsley's perspective, they'll be looking at going, well, if he goes there
08:41 and impresses, that's obviously going to drive up his value, because the market
08:46 clearly wasn't there for him in January that they might have liked in terms
08:48 of a permanent deal.
08:50 So it's one of those where I think it probably does suit all parties.
08:52 Styles gets what he was looking for, which is to play at a higher level
08:55 for the next few months.
08:56 Sunderland get versatility and depth and a good chance to look at him close up
09:00 before they decide in the summer.
09:02 And, you know, from Barnsley's perspective, it's an opportunity to kind of put him
09:05 in the shop window if you like, ahead of the summer.
09:07 - Yeah, as you mentioned before, it'll be interesting to see just how much he does
09:11 play because Dan Nealon and Pierre Equa form that partnership in midfield,
09:16 and they kind of appear as Sunderland's first choice.
09:18 But as you mentioned before, Styles is versatile.
09:20 He has played at left-back earlier in his career, although Sunderland have brought
09:24 in Yelder there.
09:25 But moving on to outgoings, one that seems pretty inevitable going into transfer
09:30 deadline day was Alex Pritchard.
09:33 He completely has moved to Birmingham, signing a two-and-a-half-year deal there.
09:38 He, of course, requested to leave the club before Sunderland's game against
09:42 Stoke last weekend.
09:43 And it kind of seems a shame that it's kind of ended this way with him kind of
09:47 making that transfer request and then leaving the way he did.
09:50 But it seemed to suit all parties, didn't it, on deadline day for him to go
09:53 to Birmingham.
09:54 He was into the final year of his contract as well, so it seemed to kind of suit
09:57 everybody that that move got done.
09:59 - Yeah, I think it was really telling, wasn't it, in terms of both what Pritchard
10:03 put out yesterday, what Sunderland put out yesterday.
10:06 It seemed to be a real concerted effort, I think, to almost shake hands and draw a
10:10 line under what had happened and try and move forward on good terms because
10:14 Pritchard obviously was a brilliant player for Sunderland and he was an
10:16 absolute central part, not just getting out of League One, but establishing
10:20 themselves in the Championship.
10:21 And over the last six weeks, he's been up there with, you know, other than Jack
10:24 Clark, arguably Sunderland's most consistent player.
10:27 So it would have been a real shame for him to leave on a sour note.
10:30 I think that ultimately, I think a week or so on from all that drama, I think
10:35 we have a fair assessment of what's happened and that ultimately Pritchard and
10:41 Sunderland were just at different stages.
10:42 Sunderland were happy to offer him one more year.
10:46 You know, they feel that was fair given the other options they've got in those
10:49 positions, the business they're going to want to do in the future.
10:52 But for Pritchard, a two-and-a-half-year deal on what is a good contract in a
10:56 permanent city is an outstanding opportunity for where he is at this stage
11:00 in his career.
11:01 And so I think realistically, you can understand why he wanted to pursue that,
11:04 even if I think for everybody, it leaves a bit of a sour taste the way it ended in
11:08 terms of not playing against Stoke last weekend.
11:10 So I think it was a real shame.
11:12 And it is an interesting one from a Sunderland perspective, because
11:15 theoretically, it's a position in which they are really well stocked.
11:18 You know, they've got Aushish, they've got Bradley Deck, they've got Job, they've
11:21 got Chris Rigg, which is an important part of that, because I know there's a desire
11:25 to sort of get more minutes for Chris Rigg in the second half of the season as well.
11:29 You know, none of those players have matched Pritchard's consistency over the
11:32 first half of the season.
11:34 Job, I think you would say, probably has.
11:37 But realistically, at his age, you know, there's only...
11:40 there is going to be a limit on how much football he can play.
11:43 So while I can understand from everybody's perspective why that deal
11:46 happened and why it escalated as quickly as it did, I think you have to say that it
11:49 does definitely leave Sunderland with a bit of a challenge in the weeks ahead.
11:53 We know they played with that more of a 4-3-3, didn't they, last week with a 4-2-3-1
11:57 with Job and Ekko at high up the pitch.
11:59 Will they do that more in the interim with Pritchard's absence?
12:02 I wouldn't be surprised if they did, because that's definitely a hole in this team.
12:07 I mean, we have seen Pritchard play on the right in recent weeks.
12:11 They've now obviously signed Mundell from Standard Liège.
12:14 Do you think Sunderland were trying to sign another playmaker?
12:16 As you say, they were well... they're kind of well-stocked in that position.
12:18 But do you think they'll now see Mundell as kind of a replacement for Pritchard?
12:22 Not directly, but someone who's another kind of attacking player that comes in
12:26 and fills that spot in the squad?
12:28 I think to a certain extent.
12:31 I think the reality is that they built the squad for this season
12:34 thinking that Pritchard wasn't going to be in it.
12:35 Because when Pritchard asked for a long-term deal,
12:37 a new contract last summer, and someone said they didn't want to do it at that stage,
12:42 the expectation coming off the back of that meeting
12:44 was that Pritchard would pursue other options.
12:46 So that's why someone who's sort of signed Daku,
12:50 Mowbray was very keen to bring in and thought could have a real impact.
12:53 Arshish, Job.
12:54 And ultimately, if you look at the squad now,
12:57 when Roberts is back injured, back from injury, sorry,
13:01 some of them have quite a lot of options in the wide areas, don't they?
13:03 They've got Bar, they'll have Roberts, they'll have Clarke.
13:06 And Mundell just comes that mix, doesn't it?
13:08 And I think that's... I do like the way that they get players in the building,
13:12 especially the younger players who aren't immediately required to be first-team regulars.
13:16 I think that's a really helpful process to take a bit of the burden off them.
13:19 And I think we saw that with Ekwer last year, didn't we?
13:21 Where he had a few months to acclimatise
13:23 before he was realistically being asked to make an impact.
13:26 Arguably, you could say that maybe the issue this season with the strikers is that
13:30 because of the way things turned out, they weren't able to give them that time.
13:33 They all had to pretty much come into the team as soon as they were fit and available.
13:37 So I can understand, I don't see Mundell as a Pritchard replacement at all.
13:41 I think realistically, they felt they were carrying more than enough players in those positions.
13:45 And that was partially why eventually they were happy for Pritchard to go.
13:48 And I think it just allows Mundell to sort of settle and be integrated
13:52 without a sort of huge pressure to come straight into the team
13:54 and try and hit the ground running, which we know isn't easy,
13:57 but it do when players don't have a huge amount of senior experience.
14:01 Yeah, we've seen that with a few players, haven't we?
14:02 You mentioned Ekwer.
14:03 Try Hume as well was another one that came in and kind of had a year to kind of bed in
14:07 to the squad before becoming a first-team regular.
14:10 But you mentioned the strikers there and perhaps probably maybe a bit of a surprising one.
14:14 One of the exits at the end, Mienda leaving, does leave Sunderland a striker short.
14:20 Obviously, they weren't able to bring in another more experienced striker.
14:23 But what did you make of that one?
14:24 I think he's made eight championship appearances.
14:27 He came back from an injury from pre-season,
14:30 but allowed to leave and leaving Sunderland a man down.
14:33 But he will get more first-team exposure there at Hibernian probably.
14:37 Yeah, well, I suppose the strange aspect of it was that when we spoke to Biela Kutluwisko,
14:40 the theory was that it was Hume who would probably benefit from a loan
14:43 and Mienda would be the one who'd benefit mostly from just sort of staying on
14:47 we're side and integrating into the set up.
14:49 But of course, you know, that's not always how it works out.
14:51 And Mienda was the one who had that interest.
14:54 I have to say that I personally don't really have an issue with that deal.
14:57 I think it probably makes sense.
14:59 I think the way I would put it is, yes, at least Sunderland a striker down from what they had.
15:04 But from what we've seen from Biela so far and even Dodson-Mograve before him,
15:08 if they picked up a couple of injuries, would he go with Mienda starting in a big championship game?
15:13 Or would he like look to play Job or maybe a Bradley Dac if he's fit up front?
15:17 From what we've seen, I would suggest that he'd probably go with a Job or a Bradley Dac.
15:22 So in that scenario, it's very difficult to see Mienda getting regular minutes
15:26 between now and the end of the season.
15:27 And therefore, I think it's probably a good idea to let him go and play more regularly.
15:31 Obviously, the slightly strange aspect of it is that that wasn't the plan.
15:35 And that's obviously what's changed later on,
15:36 whether that's because there wasn't much interest in Hume at this stage, I don't know.
15:40 Yeah, so I actually think that's a sensible deal.
15:43 I don't have a problem with it,
15:45 albeit it was one that we certainly didn't see coming because you've been told the complete opposite,
15:49 not that long before.
15:50 Yeah, I think the Triantis one as well looks like a sensible one.
15:54 It made only one championship start.
15:56 So and Sunderland now seem well-stocked at centre-back, don't they?
15:59 With obviously O'Neill and Ballard, Gjelder coming in, Seald can play there as well.
16:04 So that seemed like a sensible deal.
16:05 The Matete one going to Oxford, obviously he's come back from this long-term injury.
16:10 He signed a long-term contract when he signed for Sunderland back in 2022.
16:15 Do you still see there's a future at the club for Jay Matete?
16:18 Obviously, he's had this injury set back.
16:21 The plan will be for him to go out on loan to Oxford and get regular game time.
16:24 But now with Stiles coming in, obviously there's a decision to be made on him at the end of the season.
16:28 Where do you kind of see Matete's future at Sunderland?
16:32 I think Sunderland have left their options open, haven't they?
16:34 The business they've done over the last couple of days hasn't committed to that either way,
16:38 which I think is probably sensible.
16:40 There's obviously a question mark.
16:41 We haven't yet seen if Matete has really got it at Championship level,
16:45 and that's not his fault at all.
16:46 It's just the way things have panned out with injury and what have you.
16:49 He's never really had a sustained run.
16:51 So I like that option.
16:53 I think ideally, would you have preferred to see him to go to a Championship club
16:56 to test himself at that level?
16:58 Maybe a team towards the bottom end and see if he could really impact it
17:01 and show what he's made of at this level.
17:03 I think that would have been ideal.
17:04 But obviously, you need the clubs to take him on, don't you?
17:07 So, you know, ultimately, I think it's a very pragmatic decision whereby
17:11 you know he's going to go and play, you know it's going to be in a decent size,
17:15 at a decent level.
17:17 And I think what this does is it gives someone a good option to have a look at styles closely.
17:21 It gives them a good chance to assess whether they think Matete is back to the level
17:25 that he was at last pre-season when he was pretty close to being involved
17:27 with the first team before that injury.
17:29 I think it's a, yeah, I would describe it as a pragmatic decision.
17:33 It's a bit of a win-win for both parties.
17:35 If Matete, if someone ultimately decide that Matete is not a part of their long-term plans
17:40 and hopefully the fact that he's playing regularly will enable them to get the best possible move this summer.
17:45 You know, if it doesn't really work out with styles and Matete shows that he's back to that level,
17:49 obviously it's pretty easy for someone to shuffle the pack.
17:52 Mm-hmm.
17:53 We'll just throw it ahead to this weekend's game.
17:55 Sunderland are away at Middlesbrough on Sunday.
17:58 You're going to be going to speak to Michael Beale after this, Phil,
18:01 to attend his pre-match press conference.
18:05 In terms of the new signings, can you see any of them maybe starting?
18:09 Would you say maybe Yelda could come in at left-back and Mundell and Stiles being in the squad?
18:13 How do you see it kind of shaping up kind of a few days out from the game?
18:17 Yeah, my gut instinct tells me that he'll go with an unchanged side, personally.
18:22 I think with Seal impressing, you know, and doing a decent job in the last couple of games at right-back,
18:28 my instinct is, especially against the opponent of Middlesbrough's calibre,
18:31 that, you know, Beale might just look for a bit of continuity, a bit of stability
18:35 and to let those players have more time, wouldn't be great.
18:38 I think you're right in that if he is going to make a change,
18:41 Yelda is definitely the one I think who's closest to coming in,
18:44 and that would obviously allow Trae Hulme to go over to the right flank.
18:47 Callum Stiles, we know, obviously, he's had a minor surgery on his appendix recently.
18:51 We're told he'll be fit very soon, but whether he's quite ready for this weekend remains to be seen,
18:55 because, obviously, he's missed the last couple of balance of games as well.
18:58 So, Mundell, I'm pretty sure, will be in the squad.
19:02 You know, the squad was very, very light last weekend, wasn't it?
19:04 So, it's a great chance to just bring him into the group
19:06 and give him that taste for matchday experience.
19:09 So, my gut tells me it will be a very, very similar side, if not unchanged, to last week.
19:14 But certainly, if one of those players is going to come in, I would expect it to be Yelda.
19:18 Yeah, and Mundell will probably give him another attacking option off the bench,
19:21 which maybe they lacked last week, even though they were ahead in the game.
19:25 But, Phil, thanks a lot for joining me on the latest episode of the RAW podcast.
19:30 And you can read Phil's pieces this afternoon when he attends Michael Beale's, pretty much, press conference.
19:36 And we'll have more build-up to that game against Middlesbrough on Sunday,
19:39 as well as more reaction to the end of the January transfer window.
19:44 So, if you like what we do, you can consider leaving a review wherever you listen to your podcasts,
19:49 on YouTube, Spotify, or wherever you listen to those.
19:52 So, once again, thanks a lot for listening to the RAW podcast.
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