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00:00 (upbeat music)
00:02 - Good afternoon, everybody.
00:27 I mean, an impromptu- - It's actually evening,
00:29 isn't it?
00:30 - I feel six.
00:33 Six is when you hit evening.
00:34 - The official cutoff.
00:35 - This is very late afternoon,
00:37 but an impromptu Thursday night show, Chris.
00:41 Are you, I mean, you know,
00:43 we didn't know we were gonna do this.
00:46 Obviously some news broke a little bit ago
00:49 and I just kind of felt compelled to get on here
00:53 and talk about it a little bit.
00:54 It's obviously all over social media.
00:57 We put an article up on it on the website.
00:59 Chris put a post on the Facebook page.
01:01 The comments are like blowing up on that thing.
01:03 So it just felt like,
01:05 let's get on and talk about it a little bit.
01:06 We can involve the people, we'll involve ourselves
01:08 and we'll get right into it.
01:10 So obviously the point of this
01:12 and the focal point is not awesome.
01:17 I don't think there's any way to slice it
01:19 that this isn't a good thing, a good look,
01:21 but this was the, I think the first bomb to drop.
01:25 It might've been the, it wasn't the Big 10.
01:26 I think it first hit Yahoo Sports, if I'm not mistaken.
01:29 But anyway, a few hours ago, late Wednesday afternoon,
01:32 the Big 10 Conference and University of Michigan
01:34 were notified by the NCAA
01:36 that they are doing an investigation
01:38 on allegations of sign stealing
01:40 by the University of Michigan football program.
01:43 The Big 10 Conference notified Michigan State University
01:46 and other future opponents.
01:48 The Big 10 Conference considers the integrity of competition
01:51 to be of utmost importance
01:53 and will continue to monitor the investigation.
01:56 The conference will have no further comment at this time.
01:59 In other words, it sounds like Greg Sciano for sure
02:04 is one of the people or one of the programs
02:08 accusing Michigan of stealing signs,
02:11 but not only stealing signs,
02:13 but doing so in a way that's completely against the rules.
02:16 Because you, in game, like if you pick up on signs
02:20 and you see some trends, that's fair game.
02:23 But what Michigan is being accused of
02:25 is potentially sending out people
02:27 to go scout games in person all over the country,
02:30 one would assume, and then take notes on it,
02:33 maybe even record it.
02:35 I think there's one person who has said
02:37 that they thought someone was video record,
02:39 which that's just one person's word.
02:41 But I mean, at the end of the day,
02:43 Michigan is being accused by at least three
02:45 or four different people from different programs
02:49 for cheating, essentially, for stealing signs
02:53 and using it to gain a competitive advantage.
02:57 And that's pretty much where we're at.
03:00 Michigan State apparently may have even had the chance
03:02 to not play the game this weekend, which seems crazy to me.
03:06 I can't believe that would be an option.
03:08 But yeah, that's about what we know at this point.
03:12 So I don't know.
03:14 I mean, Chris, I think you laid it out on the Facebook page
03:17 and just simply said, not ideal,
03:19 'cause it's not, this is not a good deal.
03:22 Anyway, you slice it, I don't know what will come of this.
03:24 I don't know if you're able to prove it,
03:26 but now it's out there and that sucks.
03:29 - Yeah, I mean, obviously,
03:32 the news broke a handful of hours ago,
03:36 so we've had a chance to sort of sit back and digest
03:39 and see what everybody's saying about it,
03:41 read what was in the Yahoo Sports report,
03:43 and then read subsequently what the Athletic put out.
03:48 And I think there's a couple of things
03:49 that I think everybody needs to understand.
03:51 And number one, sign stealing is not new.
03:55 It's been around forever.
03:56 Everybody acknowledges it.
03:57 I mean, you've seen RG3 come out this afternoon and say,
04:01 "Well, then every team should be investigated."
04:03 You saw JJ Watt come out and say the same thing.
04:06 Players, coaches, people that are saying,
04:08 "This is common practice,"
04:10 and I think that was even noted in the Yahoo Sports article.
04:13 The distinction here, and I think you said it
04:16 in the lead-up, is that Michigan is being accused
04:19 of sending individuals to games to scout opponents,
04:23 in particular, scout whatever the hand signals are
04:26 coming from the sideline from the coordinators.
04:29 And then in the article from the Athletic,
04:32 it kind of took it a bit of a step further.
04:34 It says the Big Ten claims that Michigan,
04:37 according to one source, is using a vast network
04:42 to steal opposing teams' signs,
04:45 and then also had shared that,
04:47 the Big Ten had shared it with Michigan State,
04:49 said that it had reviewed film that indicates
04:51 Michigan has or had knowledge of what an opposing team
04:55 was gonna run before the play actually occurred.
04:57 So I guess that's where I start,
05:00 is let's all accept and acknowledge
05:03 that all teams steal hand signals,
05:06 and that's been going on for a while.
05:08 But the difference and the distinction here
05:10 is whether or not Michigan has been using individuals,
05:14 apparently, when you use the term vast network,
05:16 it sounds pretty, it sounds like deep conspiracy type stuff.
05:19 - Real quick on that point.
05:22 Real quick on that point.
05:24 - Just to finish the thought,
05:25 to go in to different venues to watch different teams
05:29 and to steal the signals from the sidelines
05:31 and then use that footage to be able to know
05:35 what a team is gonna run ahead of time.
05:36 - So on your point about all teams stealing signs,
05:39 because there's already a faction out there
05:40 that's like, no, they don't.
05:42 Not everybody steals signs.
05:43 Well, yeah, they do.
05:44 Because for the last 15 years in college football,
05:48 you have four to six to eight guys
05:50 on the sidelines doing this.
05:52 And only one of them is the real play caller.
05:54 You also have certain teams who use
05:57 giant picture boards to call the play.
05:59 Some of them are dummy calls, some of them are real,
06:01 some of them are not even involved in the game.
06:04 So to say that no one else is doing that,
06:07 everybody does this,
06:08 because that's where those systems came from.
06:10 That's where the different,
06:12 every game you can look over on the sidelines,
06:14 you can see backup quarterbacks,
06:15 staffers and assistant coaches in different colored hats,
06:18 different colored wristbands, different colored vests,
06:21 so that when they can do a check over to the sideline,
06:23 they know exactly who to look for, where to look
06:25 and what play to call.
06:27 So this has been going on forever.
06:29 So that argument about like, well, Michigan's got caught.
06:31 How come everybody else,
06:32 it doesn't really matter because it has been going on.
06:35 There's no doubt about it
06:36 that teams have been stealing signs for,
06:39 as long as sports have been around, frankly,
06:41 it's not just football and other teams have come up
06:44 with systems to try to prevent this.
06:45 So I just think that's an important point to make
06:48 among the first argument there.
06:49 - It is, and James, in the comments,
06:53 the question, is there a rule against scouting in person?
06:55 Yes, that's where the issue comes into play.
06:58 And that's what the basis of the accusation is,
07:01 is that Michigan has sent people in.
07:03 And I think that is, if I'm correct here,
07:06 this dates back to last season.
07:08 We've had teams that have accused Michigan
07:11 of doing this last year.
07:13 And I know we had a conversation about this earlier,
07:15 whether or not it was just limited to the 2023 season.
07:18 It's not, it sounds like it goes back to last year as well.
07:21 And if you look at Michigan, see,
07:23 this is the shitty part about the whole thing,
07:26 is that if you're Michigan and you're under investigation,
07:29 same as the investigation with Harbaugh earlier,
07:32 and whether or not he told the truth
07:33 and what was going on with the recruiting violations
07:37 and buying a meal for recruits, yada, yada, yada.
07:40 He was not allowed to speak on the investigation
07:42 because it was ongoing.
07:44 Michigan is in a similar spot here.
07:45 They're not allowed to speak on it,
07:47 but it's now known throughout the sporting world
07:52 that Michigan is under investigation
07:54 and they can't talk about it.
07:55 And I think that puts Michigan in a really difficult spot.
07:57 So what you're seeing in the meantime
07:59 is folks are now going back,
08:02 watching the tape of Michigan dominate last year
08:04 in the second half of games
08:05 and blowing out Ohio State and saying,
08:08 you know, trying to cling to anything they can cling to
08:10 to say, "Eh, see, that wasn't legitimate.
08:12 "There had to have been a reason
08:13 "why Michigan looked as good as they did."
08:17 I think here's where I fall on this, you know,
08:19 just after listening to some of the different perspectives
08:23 throughout the day.
08:24 I come away with it thinking,
08:26 right now there has been an accusation made,
08:30 but there's no evidence, at least that anybody I know of
08:34 has seen specifically that would indicate
08:36 Michigan is doing this.
08:38 There's an accusation that this is happening.
08:41 What gives me concern is that the Big Ten has gone ahead
08:45 and notified future opponents.
08:47 And I think if you're the league and you're going to do that
08:50 you can't be doing that based on a hunch
08:53 or based on, you know, hearsay
08:55 or something you think might be happening.
08:57 I think in order for the Big Ten to take the step
08:59 to go ahead and say, "Okay, we're gonna notify Penn State.
09:02 "We're gonna notify future opponents on Michigan's schedule,
09:05 "let them know this is happening."
09:07 They have to have something of substance.
09:10 What that is, I don't know.
09:11 What type of penalty that leads to, I'm not sure,
09:14 but it's clear that a couple things are happening.
09:17 One, there's something to this.
09:19 I think it's just a matter of to what extent.
09:22 And two, the NCAA is hell-bent on getting Michigan
09:27 and in particular Jim Harbaugh for something.
09:30 Because we know that college football isn't clean.
09:32 We know that college athletics isn't clean,
09:34 but the NCAA seems to have a hard on for Jim Harbaugh
09:37 and making sure that he pays some sort of price.
09:40 And so I do think that this is gonna lead
09:42 to some sort of penalty.
09:44 What it looks like in the end, I don't know.
09:46 But for anybody out there that's a Michigan fan,
09:48 my initial thoughts were probably the same as yours.
09:50 I wanted to dismiss it, "Ah, it's bullshit.
09:52 "Michigan's good, they're just trying to do
09:54 "whatever they can do to bring down the program."
09:56 But I think when the conference gets involved,
10:00 it sounds to me like Michigan State actually had an option
10:03 to not even play on Saturday and opted to do that.
10:08 When you start to get to that level,
10:10 it makes me a little bit concerned as a Michigan fan
10:13 that there has to be something to what's being reported
10:16 and what's being accused.
10:18 - Yeah, I think if you're literally going
10:20 to give Michigan State the option to not play on Saturday,
10:24 that's pretty serious.
10:26 That goes beyond just word of mouth.
10:28 Like, "We think Michigan's doing this.
10:30 "It's pretty clear that they did that."
10:33 It's above and beyond that.
10:34 And apparently, Michigan is going to get their hands
10:38 on the evidence at some point.
10:40 I mean, today's already Thursday.
10:41 I don't know if it'll happen tomorrow
10:42 or before the Michigan State game on Saturday.
10:45 But at some point, Michigan is going to get their hands
10:48 on the evidence that's been delivered to the NCAA
10:52 or delivered to the Big Ten Conference.
10:53 I'm not sure exactly what the order of operations is.
10:56 They're like, "Who gets it first, and then what,
10:57 "and then what, and then what?"
10:58 But apparently, Michigan is going to get their hands
11:01 on this evidence at some point.
11:02 Now, whether or not that evidence is legitimate,
11:05 whether or not it proves anything, I don't know.
11:08 I don't know how they could possibly do that.
11:10 But again, to Chris's point
11:12 and to the investigation's point,
11:14 if the Big Ten Conference is going to get involved
11:16 and notify the last five teams on Michigan's schedule,
11:21 just so you know, this is going on,
11:24 that's a pretty big deal.
11:25 That is a pretty big deal, and it does make me think
11:28 that there's something to this.
11:30 I'm not gonna sit there and say, like,
11:32 "Well, they'll never prove it, so who cares?"
11:34 I just can't feel that way about it, personally.
11:36 I don't know if they'll be able to prove it,
11:38 but this does make you wonder a little bit,
11:41 like, what exactly happened?
11:43 Who noticed what?
11:43 How did it happen?
11:45 What kind of proof are they talking about?
11:47 And oh, and to another point of yours, Chris,
11:51 Jim Harbaugh can't talk about any of this stuff
11:53 because there is an ongoing investigation,
11:55 but apparently his lawyer released a statement that said,
11:58 "Jim can't talk about this because it's an investigation,
12:01 "but if he could, he would vehemently deny
12:04 "everything that's being reported."
12:06 So, I mean, like, that's essentially,
12:08 that's lawyer talk for Jim saying,
12:09 "This is bullshit, none of this happened."
12:12 You know, what else is he gonna say?
12:13 Of course, that's what he's gotta say at this point,
12:16 but again, it really makes you wonder
12:20 when the conference is gonna take it to heart that much
12:23 and actually, almost proactively,
12:26 make sure it can't happen by giving teams the,
12:29 giving teams the option to not play.
12:31 I've never heard of that.
12:32 I've never heard of a team, except for COVID stuff,
12:36 I've never heard of a team getting the option
12:39 to not play a game.
12:40 - Okay, but see, this is what we can't do.
12:44 Ralph from the Facebook page, you know,
12:47 basically telling us to stop fanning the fake flames.
12:51 Like, we're not, listen,
12:53 we're not fanning any sort of flames.
12:56 This is just a conversation about what's happening,
13:00 what's being reported, and what it could possibly mean.
13:03 And I think, again, if you're a Michigan fan,
13:06 the instinctual response is to call bullshit on it
13:09 and to just, you know, it's Michigan against the world.
13:11 Michigan's, you know, one of the favorites
13:13 to win a national championship,
13:14 and folks in positions of power
13:17 don't wanna see that happen for a number of reasons.
13:20 I do think, you know, Jim Harbaugh's been very outspoken
13:24 about, you know, revenue sharing and TV deals
13:27 when it comes to players.
13:28 And I think that that's something that the NCAA
13:29 is probably not a big fan of.
13:31 And obviously you have the ongoing investigation
13:33 with the previous things.
13:35 So there's some beef there between, you know,
13:37 Jim Harbaugh and Michigan and the NCAA.
13:39 But what I would just ask is if you're a Michigan fan,
13:43 don't just dismiss it as nothing, right?
13:46 I don't think, if it was just the NCAA,
13:49 it might be easy to do that.
13:51 But when the conference is notifying future opponents,
13:55 giving Michigan State the opportunity
13:57 to not play in the game,
14:00 there has to be something of substance to this.
14:03 Now, sure, no evidence that we've seen,
14:06 but that doesn't mean the NCAA doesn't have evidence.
14:08 That doesn't mean the Big Ten doesn't have evidence.
14:10 And it sure as hell sounds like they have something.
14:12 They've got their hands on something
14:14 and they're going to give it to Michigan, I don't know,
14:16 within the coming days, they should have it in their hands.
14:19 And I'm just curious what this means for, you know,
14:23 not just the game this weekend,
14:24 but what is the rest of the season look like?
14:26 Because if you're, you know, if you're Michigan,
14:29 you're number two in the country,
14:30 it's looking like you're headed toward the playoff.
14:32 You're going to compete in a Big Ten championship.
14:34 What evidence do they have if this has been occurring?
14:37 And then how do you penalize a team
14:39 that's a front runner in the Big Ten conference
14:41 and presumably, you know, one of the favorites
14:43 to win the national championship?
14:45 I think that's, what's going to be really interesting
14:47 is I don't think nothing is going to happen.
14:49 I think something is going to happen.
14:51 It's just to what extent, but if you're a Michigan fan,
14:54 don't just dismiss it as bullshit
14:56 because things like this don't happen if it's just bullshit.
15:01 The Big Ten is taking actual steps
15:04 to notify future opponents that, hey, this is going on.
15:07 And the big, you know, forget about what you think
15:09 about the NCAA, the Big Ten wouldn't do that
15:12 if they didn't think that there was something there.
15:14 - Yeah, I just think if you're,
15:17 if your immediate response is, ah, it's horseshit,
15:19 it's a witch hunt, I just don't think
15:21 you're really paying attention.
15:23 I would love for nothing more than this to just be like,
15:26 yeah, the NCAA is like, we took a huge deep dive
15:29 into everything and we found nothing.
15:32 Then you can, then after that, you can say,
15:35 that was bullshit, that was a witch hunt,
15:37 that was specifically targeting Michigan and Jim Harbaugh
15:40 and it never should have happened.
15:42 That's really the only time you can say that.
15:43 And then, you know, for the people that say like,
15:45 ah, the Big Ten hates Michigan too.
15:47 No, no, they don't, dude.
15:48 Like Michigan is one of the golden gooses
15:50 in the Big Ten Conference, they don't hate Michigan.
15:53 I promise you, Michigan makes that conference more money
15:55 than any other program in the conference.
15:57 Look, as a fan, that's the first
16:02 and most natural reaction, I get it.
16:04 But this is a little bit bigger than just a fan's reaction
16:09 and, you know, looking like this is unwarranted
16:12 or unfounded or out of the blue or just because.
16:15 I just don't think you can treat it that way
16:17 when, I just don't think you can treat it that way
16:20 when it's going the path that it's already going.
16:23 Being involved, stuff like that.
16:24 - Yeah, Ralph, the Big Ten put out a statement
16:29 and said that they had notified Michigan State ahead of time
16:32 and Michigan State announced earlier today
16:35 that they were still gonna participate in the game.
16:38 So yeah, this isn't just shit that people are making up.
16:41 Now, sure, if you go on Twitter and you look at social media
16:44 and you look at some of the conspiracy theories
16:45 that are floating around out there,
16:47 you're gonna find some crazy stuff.
16:49 But all you gotta do is look at the initial report,
16:52 what the Big Ten conference has said and admitted to,
16:56 and that's all you need to know that there's something.
16:59 Again, to what extent, how bad was it,
17:01 what was really going on?
17:02 We'll find that out when the evidence is presented.
17:05 But I think just given the fact that the Big Ten
17:08 is notifying future opponents,
17:10 to me, that was where it raised the red flag.
17:13 And I'm like, okay, this feels a little bit scary
17:15 because goddammit, Brandon, Michigan, this is the year.
17:20 This was the year, supposed to be the year
17:23 that everything comes together,
17:24 national championship season, and here we are
17:28 on the doorstep of playing Michigan State,
17:30 going into the bye week,
17:31 and you get something like this that drops,
17:33 and it just takes a lot of the wind out of your sails
17:35 because no matter what Michigan does
17:37 for the remainder of the year,
17:39 this is gonna be a talking point by some folks.
17:42 And they're already going back and pulling the tape
17:44 on last year and the year before that and saying,
17:46 see, Michigan wasn't that good after all, and that sucks.
17:50 - And here's the deal.
17:51 If Shiano is talking out of his ass,
17:54 if other staffers, other coaches,
17:56 whoever these other sources are,
17:58 are talking out of their ass, that'll be found out
18:00 because there's not gonna be any evidence
18:01 of something happening.
18:02 And then at that point,
18:03 then you can start taking all the pot shots you want
18:06 at Shiano and ECU and whoever's involved in this,
18:09 it's gloves off at that point.
18:11 But for right now, the way that this thing is developing
18:14 and the way that it's coming together,
18:15 to simply say that it's bullshit just because you're a fan
18:18 and it hurts your feelings a little bit,
18:19 you just can't do that.
18:20 Like, it's just not how it works.
18:24 Like I said, if they do a deep dive in this
18:26 and find nothing, oh, then it's fire the cannons.
18:31 I mean, at that point, it's fire the cannons
18:34 and all bets are off in terms of what you can
18:36 and want to say about opponents, the NCAA,
18:39 the Big Ten Conference, Greg Shiano, whoever.
18:42 Like, that's how it has to go.
18:45 It's gonna go one way or the other.
18:46 They're either gonna find hard proof about it
18:48 or they're not.
18:49 Like, the fact that there's an allegation out there sucks
18:53 because the rival fan bases and the rival media people
18:55 and the rival teams are going to say
18:58 what they're already saying.
18:59 But if they find no proof of it,
19:01 they can say whatever the hell they want.
19:02 Michigan's gonna hold up their Big Ten Championships
19:04 ranks and say, "Suck it."
19:05 And that's all that's gonna happen.
19:08 But I'm just saying right now, it doesn't look good.
19:12 I mean, when you step back and look at the big picture
19:14 and see how this thing's coming together,
19:15 the fact that the conference is involved,
19:17 the fact that Michigan State had a potential out
19:19 for Saturday's game,
19:20 they know they're gonna get drilled by 30 points.
19:23 - Yeah.
19:24 - I mean, you know?
19:25 So the fact that they're--
19:26 - That's the other thing is,
19:27 and I've heard this discussed today,
19:29 and it's a way that I feel like if this goes back,
19:32 you know, if we're talking if this goes back into 2022
19:35 and even into 2021, because people are pointing
19:37 to how bad Michigan was during that 2020 season.
19:40 And we've talked about it before,
19:42 like just an incredible turnaround by Harbaugh and Michigan
19:45 and what they did, you know, over the last two years
19:47 and this season.
19:49 The thing that sucks about it is,
19:52 yeah, Michigan didn't need or doesn't need,
19:55 not saying that they did, but if this is what happened,
19:58 you don't need to steal signs and send in people
20:00 to watch Indiana or watch Rutgers or watch Bowling Green
20:04 or watch East Carolina, like you just don't need to do that.
20:07 So that's frustrating.
20:10 And then the fact that it feels like the longer
20:13 that this continues with Michigan and Harbaugh
20:16 and the NCAA, it just feels like it's,
20:19 I would love for Jim Harbaugh to come back next year,
20:24 but I feel like he's being given a lot of reasons
20:26 to just say, you know what?
20:27 I don't want to deal with this shit.
20:28 I just don't want to deal with it.
20:31 For as much as he loves Michigan
20:32 and for as well as he's doing here,
20:35 this to me is just another push,
20:37 another step in the direction toward him not returning
20:39 because he doesn't want to deal with the NCAA.
20:41 And it's clear that the NCAA doesn't want to deal with him.
20:46 - Yeah.
20:47 Yeah, I mean, this can go back to,
20:50 and now I'm doing what a lot of people in the media
20:53 are doing, I'm guessing and reaching and wondering,
20:57 but this does feel like it goes all the way back
20:59 to like the satellite camps.
21:02 I mean, all the way back to that,
21:04 when the NCAA was like, you can't do that
21:06 because some of the coaches in the SEC bitched about it
21:09 and it got, it climbed the ladder enough
21:11 to where the NCAA said, no, you can't do that anymore.
21:14 It goes back to, you know,
21:15 Jim Harbaugh does have a tendency to push the envelope.
21:18 And that's one of the things that's made him great.
21:21 But, you know, in a couple of instances,
21:23 it's got some pushback too.
21:24 And he, I mean, Jim Harbaugh's clearly not a fan
21:26 of the NCAA.
21:27 I mean, I don't know a lot of coaches that probably are,
21:30 but he's been outspoken about it this year.
21:32 I mean, as recently as this year,
21:33 then you get into the recruiting violations
21:36 and the self-imposed penalty
21:37 and the fact that the NCAA feel like
21:39 they never got to stick it to them.
21:40 I mean, all those things kind of included.
21:43 I don't doubt that there's some angle of that
21:45 in all of this, but the fact that the conference
21:47 is now involved with the sign stealing thing
21:50 makes it feel a little bit more real than if they weren't.
21:53 If this was just a couple of coaches are pissed,
21:55 NCAA is launching another investigation.
21:58 It would have a different feel.
22:00 But the fact that Big Ten,
22:02 the Big Ten conference got involved
22:04 and felt the need to notify Michigan State
22:06 and the other four teams
22:07 that were still on Michigan's schedule,
22:10 that makes it feel a little bit more legitimate.
22:12 And if you don't agree with that,
22:14 I don't know how to convince you otherwise.
22:16 I don't know how you can look at that and say it's bullshit.
22:18 I just don't get that.
22:19 - And I'll just refer back to the article from The Athletic,
22:22 which it says, I quote,
22:24 "The Big Ten approached Michigan State on Wednesday
22:28 ahead of this weekend's matchup between the rivals
22:31 with Michigan."
22:33 And with what the league described as credible evidence
22:36 that the Wolverines have successfully stolen signs
22:39 called by opposing teams coaches this season.
22:42 It went on to say--
22:43 - And the key point here is not during the game.
22:45 It's the way that they did it.
22:46 That's the problem.
22:47 So like Bryce is saying--
22:48 - Right, it's not like you're standing on the sideline
22:50 and you're going through the game
22:52 and you're picking up the calls
22:53 that are coming in from the opposing sideline.
22:55 This is an allegation that Michigan
22:58 is scouting these teams ahead of time,
23:01 stealing their signs and then going into the game
23:03 with the knowledge of what's already being called,
23:05 which is that's the distinction between what you can do
23:08 and what you can't do.
23:09 And the article from The Athletic then went on to say
23:13 that the Big Ten claims that Michigan,
23:15 as one source with knowledge of the allegation said,
23:18 is using a vast network to steal opposing teams' signs.
23:23 The league told Michigan State
23:25 it has reviewed film that indicates.
23:27 So this is important.
23:28 The Big Ten, not the NCAA,
23:31 the Big Ten told Michigan State that it has reviewed film
23:35 that indicates the University of Michigan
23:38 had knowledge of what play an opposing team
23:40 was gonna run before the play occurred.
23:42 So I think that's where, again,
23:44 I just get a little bit concerned
23:45 because it's not the NCAA doing what it does
23:48 and nitpicking and all this other bullshit.
23:50 Now the Big Ten is involved
23:51 and they're actually having conversations
23:53 with future opponents saying,
23:55 we have evidence that this is occurring.
23:57 What do you wanna do with it?
23:59 And as a Michigan fan, that's a little concerning.
24:01 - And that may end up being nothing.
24:04 It may just be that Jesse Minter and his staff are that good
24:09 and what they've watched in film throughout the week,
24:11 that they recognize something and made a call on the fly.
24:14 That happens all the time in football too.
24:16 I remember there was a pretty famous clip
24:17 from a few years ago with Cam Newton and AJ,
24:21 what the hell was this?
24:23 Clay, Clay, Clay, Clay, the linebacker for the Packers.
24:27 It's escaping me now.
24:28 Long blonde hair, whatever.
24:30 - Yeah, I know what you're talking about.
24:33 - Before the snap.
24:34 - Matthews.
24:35 - Clay Matthews, thank you.
24:36 Before the snap, Clay Matthews said,
24:38 hey, this is that flare out, that flare out.
24:40 And Cam Newton stands up and says,
24:42 hey, that's pretty good.
24:42 I watch film too.
24:43 Watch this and throws a touchdown pass.
24:45 Like, dude, these guys are watching film
24:47 on the opponent team all week long.
24:49 It's not out of the realm of possibilities
24:51 that Jesse Minter and his defensive staff
24:53 recognize something based on a formation
24:55 or a motion or a personnel package
24:57 and made a call on the fly.
24:59 That happens in football.
25:00 That might be all this is.
25:02 We don't know that yet.
25:03 - But here's the thing.
25:05 The Big 10 also knows that.
25:07 Everybody in the college football world knows that.
25:09 So for the Big 10 to take this step,
25:12 to me, that just indicates that they have to have something
25:15 that's almost indisputable at this point,
25:18 because everybody knows that happens.
25:19 Everybody knows that you can get signs during the game
25:22 and you can make adjustments.
25:23 Like that's football, especially at this level.
25:25 That's how that works.
25:27 So if the Big 10 is gonna come in
25:28 and start notifying future opponents
25:30 that things are happening
25:32 and there's this vast network type deal going on,
25:35 to me, it's, again, I don't know what the evidence is.
25:38 It's accusations at this point,
25:40 but it must be pretty damn good in order for the Big 10
25:44 to take the step that they took
25:46 as far as notifying Michigan State
25:47 and potential future opponents.
25:49 I mean, that's the part of this
25:51 that gives me a little pause.
25:53 - Yeah, no, I mean, it's obviously not great timing.
25:56 It's another, I mean, for a while there,
25:58 it was like, "God, Michigan just keeps shooting itself
26:00 in the foot."
26:01 I don't know if that's what this is.
26:02 This is obviously, you know, feels a little bit different,
26:05 but it is going to be, I mean, like,
26:10 okay, Michigan's gonna go to East Lansing this weekend.
26:12 They're gonna beat the shit out of Michigan State.
26:13 It's gonna be eight and O,
26:14 and then in the press conference after the game,
26:16 they're not gonna talk about the game at all.
26:17 It's gonna be all about, you know, this.
26:19 I don't know if there's gonna be Michigan State people
26:21 in there, I don't know.
26:23 Michigan State media people have had no problem
26:25 getting snarky with Jim Harbaugh before.
26:26 I wonder how that will go on Saturday.
26:29 But yeah, this is obviously a little bit bigger of a deal
26:34 than a low-level recruiting violation
26:37 that Michigan had to deal with
26:38 at the beginning of the season.
26:39 - This is the shit that drives me insane.
26:41 Like, you get on here to have a conversation
26:43 about this stuff, and you get somebody saying,
26:45 "We're giving corrupt and biased government bureaucrats
26:49 "way too much credit."
26:50 What are we talking about here?
26:53 What are we talking about?
26:54 Is that a reference to the NCAA?
26:56 Like, what is that a reference to?
26:58 This isn't, you know, again, it's not some,
27:02 sure, I can understand why a Michigan fan might think,
27:06 like, the NCAA is out to get Michigan,
27:08 they're out to get Harbaugh.
27:09 And I do think there is some truth to that.
27:11 I think that there is some beef there.
27:13 But to also dismiss what the Big Ten is doing
27:17 and the steps that they've taken to notify future opponents,
27:21 now you're just sort of, you're living in ignorance
27:24 because you don't want to acknowledge
27:26 what's actually happening.
27:27 The fact that, guys, I don't, it's crazy to me
27:31 that Michigan State had an option to not play this weekend.
27:36 And what would that have looked like?
27:37 What would the, you know, how does that go down
27:39 in the record books?
27:40 How does that affect Michigan's season?
27:41 What, you know, what do the rest of the opponents do
27:44 for the remainder of the, Penn State say,
27:45 "Fuck it, I don't wanna play 'em, Purdue.
27:47 "I don't wanna play 'em, Ohio State.
27:48 "I don't wanna play 'em."
27:49 Like, what happens in that scenario?
27:52 It just-- - I don't,
27:53 I don't think that would be the same as a forfeit
27:55 if the NCAA or the Big Ten is giving them
27:57 the opportunity to not play.
27:59 - I mean, you could-- - You know, 'cause--
28:01 - You could have a scenario where
28:04 the remainder of Michigan's schedule
28:06 just opts not to play the Wolverines.
28:08 - See, Aaron, you're kind of making our point
28:11 by saying that.
28:12 The Big Ten better be sure
28:14 if they're giving teams the option to not play.
28:16 - Exactly. - That's the point.
28:18 That's what Chris is saying.
28:19 He's like, "The Big Ten's not going to do that
28:21 "unless the evidence that they've had presented
28:23 "is pretty clear."
28:24 - Right. - If they're wrong,
28:27 dude, like that is, that's malpractice.
28:30 - That would be a huge fuck up by the Big Ten,
28:32 and I, you know, Michigan would have,
28:35 there would be a lot of, I would assume,
28:38 legal consequences for the Big Ten conference
28:40 if that ends up being the case.
28:42 - Robert, we're just not gonna talk about it?
28:43 We'll just, oh, forget it.
28:44 We'll just not talk about it.
28:47 Hey, Chris, what about getting out there today?
28:49 - Guess what?
28:50 We don't get paid for any clicks on the podcast here.
28:54 - That's also true. - To break into you, so.
28:56 - That's also true.
28:56 - That's a great theory there, Robert.
28:58 Unfortunately, it's very flawed, very flawed.
29:01 We're doing this for free.
29:03 - Yeah, Chris and I started to talk
29:04 throughout the day on this and just said,
29:06 let's go on and talk about it a little bit.
29:08 I mean, it's obviously at the center of all the news.
29:11 - Let's get it from some of the fans that are in here,
29:13 'cause Count 22, you're normally in the comments.
29:15 I'm curious.
29:16 You said you normally roll with us,
29:18 but we're off on this one.
29:19 What exactly are we off on?
29:22 What are we off on?
29:23 You tell us, and then we'll have a healthy debate.
29:26 'Cause I'm interested in an opposing view on this,
29:30 so long as it's well thought out
29:32 and it's not coming from a place of just craziness.
29:35 - Yeah, guys, your argument can't just be, this is bullshit.
29:40 That can't be it.
29:41 There's gotta be more than that.
29:42 There just has to be more than that.
29:44 See, this is another example of the fan base
29:52 just can't comprehend.
29:56 - It's not a problem, man.
29:58 Listen, it's one of the-
29:59 - This is why I lost thousands of followers on Twitter
30:01 when I had enough of Harbaugh after 2020.
30:04 - Listen, this is what makes,
30:09 this is the good part and the awful part
30:12 about not just college athletics, but sports in general.
30:15 It's in your DNA.
30:16 It's who you are.
30:17 It's part of your identity.
30:19 You don't wanna ever believe
30:20 that something you love so much,
30:22 that something you arrange your schedule around
30:25 could do something.
30:26 - Like right here.
30:27 They couldn't be stupid enough to, why?
30:29 - Sure they could.
30:30 - 'Cause you don't want them to be?
30:32 - Right.
30:33 - Dude, people are stupid.
30:34 - How about this, Steven?
30:35 - People do stupid stuff.
30:36 - How about this, Steven?
30:37 The Big 10 couldn't possibly be stupid enough
30:39 to go ahead and warn future teams
30:41 and give Michigan State an out
30:42 if it didn't have concrete evidence
30:44 that this stuff was happening, right?
30:46 The Big 10 surely couldn't be that stupid.
30:48 - Look, Steven, I'm not necessarily picking on you
30:52 'cause my train of thought is the same.
30:54 I was like, Michigan doesn't have to do that
30:56 to beat ECU or to beat Rutgers.
30:58 But if that's, hey, if that's part of what
31:01 they've been doing, part of their system,
31:03 and I hope that's not true.
31:04 I hope it's not true.
31:05 Like, I don't know, why wouldn't they?
31:11 And to other people's point,
31:12 how in the world are they gonna prove this?
31:14 I don't know if they can.
31:15 That's enough, like, the NCAA may do this,
31:19 may do this investigation and find nada.
31:22 And if that happens, then what?
31:24 Then Michigan just keeps beating teams
31:25 and this will go away.
31:27 I just, to just say that they wouldn't do that,
31:32 like, that's another thing.
31:33 Whenever somebody gets accused of doing something wrong,
31:36 like, that guy would never do,
31:37 dude, you don't know that guy.
31:39 You don't know anything about that guy.
31:41 That guy might as well be a chair in my living room.
31:43 You know nothing about that person.
31:45 You can't just say that based on feelings and emotions.
31:48 You just can't.
31:50 There has to be a little bit more to that.
31:52 - Correct.
31:54 - I don't know.
31:55 I missed a question up here that I thought,
31:57 please answer that question.
31:58 - Yeah, let's pull some.
31:58 Let's pull some from the comment section,
32:01 because I think a lot of people have spent some time
32:02 thinking about this today,
32:03 and they probably wanna share their thoughts.
32:05 - If the evidence is clear,
32:06 then why did MSU decide to play the game?
32:08 I have a couple of theories on that.
32:09 One would be because you practice all week
32:11 and you're there to play football.
32:12 Two, it's Michigan State.
32:14 Three, it's a night game.
32:15 Oh, and by the way,
32:16 there might just be a tiny bit of money involved
32:18 in actually playing that game on Saturday.
32:21 And also, look, if they do think that Michigan
32:24 is gonna be out there stealing signs,
32:25 it wouldn't be all that hard to switch up a few things
32:28 and make it not possible.
32:30 There's quite a few explanations
32:32 as to why Michigan State would still play this game.
32:34 - I mean, the idea that NBC wouldn't have a say in it
32:37 is kind of crazy at this point.
32:41 - You don't need much more of an explanation
32:45 beyond the money.
32:46 You don't need much more.
32:47 - It's primetime NBC network television.
32:50 This game is scheduled, it's happening.
32:52 - Money talks, fellas and ladies, money talks.
32:55 And if you cancel that game
32:57 and no one shows up to Spartan Stadium on Saturday,
33:01 that's a big old kick in the pocketbook,
33:02 and that's not something they wanna do.
33:04 It's probably no bigger than that, honestly.
33:07 There might not even be, the athletic department's like,
33:10 "Oh no, we're playing this one."
33:12 - We're playing.
33:13 - Stealing signs or not, they're gonna kick our ass
33:15 and we're gonna make a lot of money.
33:16 So let's go ahead and play that one.
33:17 That's probably as deep as that conversation went.
33:20 Let's see, let's see.
33:25 I mean, there's obviously, I've seen people comment.
33:27 There was over 500 people in here at one point
33:29 listening to us about this, so.
33:31 - And then they just fell off
33:32 'cause they're tired of listening to it.
33:34 - I mean, we're getting to the end of it, I feel like.
33:35 At this point, there's not much else that needs to be said.
33:38 We're gonna get a definitive answer at some point.
33:40 - Let's make a clarification here.
33:42 So I'm not necessarily sure,
33:46 based on what I'm reading here,
33:47 that the Big 10 gave Michigan State an out.
33:51 It sounded like that was something
33:52 that Michigan State was considering.
33:54 I'm just gonna read this sentence here.
33:58 According to a source briefed on the conversations
34:00 between Michigan State and the Big 10,
34:03 Michigan State initially warned the Big 10
34:06 that it might consider not playing in Saturday's game
34:09 out of concern for health and safety of its players.
34:11 On Thursday morning, MSU confirmed it will play in the game.
34:15 - Okay, so-
34:16 - So it sounds like the Big 10 called 'em,
34:19 gave 'em a heads up, said,
34:20 "Look, Michigan knows what you're doing.
34:22 "Here's what's been going on, yada, yada, yada."
34:24 Michigan State responded by saying,
34:26 "We might not play in the game."
34:27 And then on Thursday morning, lo and behold,
34:29 decide that they would play in it.
34:31 - Okay, that is an important distinction.
34:33 At the end of the day,
34:33 the decision was being talked about that they,
34:36 oh, oh, oh, breaking news, breaking news.
34:39 - What do we got? - Statement from Jim Harbaugh.
34:42 Statement from Jim Harbaugh.
34:44 Just came through on the email wire.
34:45 We should probably get this up in a story ASAP.
34:47 I'm gonna forward it to Trent and tell him to do it.
34:49 Trent, if you're still listening,
34:51 please put this up as a story immediately
34:53 as Chris and I are going to read through it.
34:54 - I'll just text him.
34:55 - You'll text him?
34:56 Well, I'm gonna email.
34:57 'Cause he doesn't get-
34:58 - Read the story though if you could, could you?
34:59 - He does not get the emails from Dave, I don't believe.
35:02 So I'm gonna forward that to him.
35:03 All right, statement from Michigan football coach,
35:05 Jim Harbaugh.
35:06 "I want to make it clear that I and my staff
35:09 "will fully cooperate with the investigation
35:11 "into this matter.
35:12 "I do not have any knowledge or information
35:15 "regarding the University of Michigan football program
35:17 "illegally stealing signals,
35:19 "nor have I directed any staff member or others
35:22 "to participate in an off-campus scouting assignment.
35:25 "I have no awareness of anyone on our staff
35:27 "having done that or having directed that action.
35:30 "I do not condone or tolerate anyone doing anything illegal
35:33 "or against NCAA rules.
35:35 "No matter what program or organization
35:37 "that I have led throughout my career,
35:39 "my instructions and awareness of how we scout opponents
35:42 "have always been firmly within the rules.
35:44 "Pursuant to NCAA rules,
35:46 "I will not be able to comment further
35:47 "while this investigation takes place."
35:50 That's pretty cut and dry.
35:51 - Yeah.
35:52 - That is, that is a,
35:55 that's as clear of a denial as there is.
35:58 - Well, then, then you have, again,
36:00 this is one of those things where it's, you know,
36:03 everybody's gonna speculate until it happens,
36:05 but gonna need to see the evidence
36:07 and exactly what the NCAA has, what the Big Ten has seen,
36:12 and square that up with Jim Harbaugh's statement.
36:16 Because there's something in the,
36:19 there has to be something in the middle.
36:21 There's something out there that the Big Ten has seen
36:23 that is warranted notifying Michigan State
36:27 of certain things happening.
36:29 According to Jim Harbaugh,
36:30 he wouldn't even think about being a part
36:32 of something like that.
36:33 So you really have to wonder, you know,
36:35 what is this evidence that the Big Ten has seen
36:37 and apparently has?
36:38 - Yeah.
36:39 - Stop fanning the flames.
36:41 - I just don't,
36:42 I mean, unless you have a smoking gun here,
36:47 I don't know what can be done.
36:48 And it made me think that there might be one
36:52 with the Big Ten getting involved.
36:54 That was my biggest concern.
36:54 - You're pissing me off.
36:57 - Where's Ralph?
37:00 - Fucking guy.
37:01 Might be my TFG of the week here.
37:03 - You heard from Coach Harbaugh, well, I mean.
37:05 - I just feel like there's, you know,
37:06 there's some people that no matter how hard you try,
37:10 you can, there's no reasonable conversation
37:13 that can be had.
37:14 - Listen, I'm, okay, this is one thing I thought of.
37:17 What's the evidence?
37:18 A guy filming the game with 100,000 people in there?
37:21 It would be then the video at like,
37:23 at some point that video is gonna have to be given
37:26 to somebody for it to be worth anything.
37:27 And if there's a quote unquote paper trail of that,
37:30 that's a problem.
37:32 But yeah, a guy standing in the stands, that's nothing.
37:35 Somebody having that video in their email or on their iPad
37:38 or in some, you know, some archive somewhere,
37:42 that's a different story.
37:43 And that's what it would have to be.
37:45 They're not gonna, no, there's gonna be nothing
37:47 that comes from, what are they gonna do?
37:48 Pour over the crowd of every game?
37:51 That's not what this is.
37:53 They're gonna try to find some evidence of it,
37:57 getting back to the staff.
37:58 - That's the biggest question is what is the evidence
38:01 and what is it that the Big Ten has or has seen
38:05 that led them to take the step to contact Michigan State
38:09 and say, this is what's happening.
38:12 That's what I'm curious about.
38:14 You don't do that on a hunt.
38:16 - Joe, they don't have to have video of the guy
38:20 in the stands writing on a notepad.
38:22 I'll tell you, Joe, I'll tell you right now,
38:25 that's not going to happen.
38:26 They're not gonna have video of a guy in the stands.
38:30 - Now, for people asking, it sounds like this was,
38:34 this has been discussed a little bit today.
38:37 Some, you know, people trying to tie it back
38:39 to maybe what happened with Matt Weiss.
38:41 It doesn't sound like that had anything to do with it.
38:43 That was shot down pretty early on.
38:45 So I'll be honest, I had that initial thought as well.
38:49 You know, you start going back to, you know,
38:50 the prior seasons and the thing with Matt Weiss was fishy
38:53 because the way it ended, like, you know,
38:55 computer crimes and things being investigated,
38:58 but we never knew what the hell, like what actually,
39:00 like at this point, we still don't know what happened.
39:03 But from my understanding, that has nothing to do
39:06 with this particular situation here.
39:08 - Joe, I hope you could tell by my laughter
39:11 that I could tell your comment
39:12 was slightly tongue in cheek.
39:13 They're not gonna find a guy,
39:15 dude, you go to a Michigan game,
39:16 there's 80,000 people with their cell phones out.
39:18 That's not gonna do shit.
39:19 It's gonna have to be something, like I said,
39:21 in an email inbox, somewhere has, you know,
39:24 somebody's got it stored somewhere in their scouting film.
39:26 - Somebody who was a part of the vast network,
39:28 their guilty conscience got the best of them
39:30 and came forward and said, look, I've been a part of this
39:32 and I can't keep doing it.
39:34 - That's not out of the realm of possibilities.
39:36 If they start tracking down some people
39:38 and you get cornered a little bit, you never know.
39:40 - That's what I'm saying.
39:41 I feel like it has to be something like that
39:44 in order for the Big Ten to do what it did.
39:46 Because if the Big Ten took the step
39:49 of having this communication with Michigan State
39:52 and you don't have something ironclad
39:54 sitting in front of you, that's like,
39:56 there's no dispute that this is going on.
39:59 I just don't know how the conference can take that step.
40:01 To me, that's, I think you said it earlier,
40:04 that's malpractice.
40:05 You can't do that if you're the Big Ten Conference
40:07 and you're not damn sure what happened.
40:10 - All right, I think that's probably good.
40:11 We're at the 40 minute mark
40:13 of our 10 to 15 minute conversation.
40:14 My son is probably tearing the house up upstairs.
40:17 He was on a FaceTime call with grandma.
40:20 They have hit a dead zone
40:21 and now I don't know what the hell he's doing.
40:22 So I'm gonna go ahead and shut her down right there, Chris.
40:25 I think that was good conversation.
40:26 We'll obviously keep it locked.
40:28 I do think that Jim Harbaugh releasing a statement
40:30 is obviously a good thing.
40:31 However, he's not gonna release a statement saying,
40:34 "Yeah, we did that shit."
40:35 I mean, like that's what he's going to say.
40:37 And that's fine.
40:38 He's either going to be proved to be a bold faced liar
40:41 or the NCAA and the Big Ten is gonna look like
40:44 they're complete idiots
40:45 and should never be in charge of anything again.
40:47 It's one of the two.
40:48 It's one of the two.
40:49 And so we'll let it play out and see what it is.
40:51 I think that's good discussion.
40:52 Now we'll certainly revisit this tomorrow.
40:54 We're coming back on for our Friday show, but-
40:57 - And hopefully we'll know more by then.
40:59 - Yeah, yeah, we'll see.
41:00 We'll see.
41:01 And then the game obviously will be played on Saturday
41:02 at seven o'clock, 7.30 in East Lansing.
41:05 So there you go.
41:06 If you guys have more comments, keep letting them fly
41:08 but we're gonna get off the live here.
41:10 And this whole thing will be put up in a story
41:12 on Wolverine Digest.
41:13 It's a long video, longer than we maybe thought
41:16 but not all that surprised given the topic
41:20 and the amount of interest.
41:21 Over, almost 600 people in here at one point.
41:24 - Ralph is certainly not invited
41:25 to the conversation tomorrow.
41:27 You can bet your ass on that, Rob.
41:29 - All right.
41:30 Well, thanks for listening, everybody.
41:31 We will talk to you again tomorrow evening.
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