Delhi Deputy CM Manish Sisodia Speaks About His Book 'Shiksha'
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00:00 Education is not just a career.
00:03 Education is about making a country.
00:06 It is about building a society.
00:08 Why should people pay for education?
00:10 Nations should take care of the national education.
00:13 Nations education.
00:15 It's not subsidy.
00:17 I disagree with this word.
00:19 Education should not have a cost.
00:29 Hello and welcome to Outlook Bibliophile.
00:31 Today we have a very special guest
00:33 who is actually a politician but now an author.
00:36 Thank you very much.
00:37 Manish Sisodia who is Delhi's Deputy Chief Minister
00:40 and the Education Minister.
00:42 He has come up with this book Shiksha
00:44 which is what the AAP,
00:47 the party that he belongs to, AAP,
00:49 has done in the last four years
00:50 to transform education,
00:52 the education system in Delhi.
00:54 In fact, we are in a school
00:56 which I am told that four years ago
00:58 was in a pretty bad condition.
01:00 We will show you a little footage as we go along
01:02 as to how this school is in Central Delhi.
01:05 It happens to be actually just next to the BJP office.
01:08 We will show you a little bit about
01:11 the kind of transformation that he is going to talk about.
01:13 Manish Ji, I wanted to actually begin by asking
01:17 when you came to power in Delhi,
01:19 there were so many issues the city was facing.
01:22 There was pollution, there was traffic,
01:25 there was women's safety.
01:27 What made you focus on education
01:30 as one of the mainstay of your party?
01:33 As I have mentioned in the book also,
01:37 that we believe in education.
01:40 We believe that lots of problems in our country are there
01:43 because we don't have quality education for all.
01:47 And unless and until we have quality education for all,
01:51 we can't solve those problems.
01:54 Joblessness is one thing,
01:57 poverty, misbehaviour, mistrust,
02:01 violence, crime against women.
02:05 On one hand, we need better law and order situation in the country,
02:09 but on the other hand, we have better sense of belongingness,
02:15 sense of being, professionalism into our life,
02:18 into our approach.
02:20 And that is missing in our education.
02:22 If it comes to education, it will come to life.
02:25 If it comes to life, it will come to the society.
02:27 That's why we thought that it is important to work on education.
02:31 It's not about politics.
02:32 We had been thinking about this from the beginning
02:34 that why education is not working in this country.
02:36 And when we came to power, we felt that
02:38 if we are in power now,
02:40 we can't question, we have to answer.
02:42 And we started with that.
02:43 In fact, education is one of those issues
02:46 which a party really can't sell to a voter.
02:49 It's not really an election issue in that sense,
02:51 which also is a point you make in the book.
02:53 So, it is not exactly a very popular issue
02:56 that a party can take up to win votes.
02:58 Actually, it is like people don't have understanding of education,
03:03 especially people who are coming to power.
03:05 And it was never mandatory also that educationists
03:07 or people who understand education to come to power.
03:10 I have mentioned again this in the same book that
03:13 in our country, if you want to become education minister,
03:17 you need not to be an educationist.
03:19 You just have to win an election.
03:21 It's not easy, but still.
03:22 The root of becoming education minister
03:25 is not having good knowledge or experience or understanding of education.
03:29 The root to become education minister is
03:32 you have to be a politician in ruling party,
03:34 you have to win the election and then win.
03:36 Even if you have not understood E of education.
03:39 Same with education secretary, same with education director.
03:42 They have to cross UPSC examination,
03:46 they have to cross election.
03:48 What about education?
03:50 Neither the education minister nor the director or the secretary
03:53 will have knowledge of education.
03:55 And these three people together take all the decisions in the whole country.
03:58 It is not mandatory.
04:00 That is why education cannot be in politics.
04:06 It is not possible.
04:07 If it becomes necessary in politics that
04:09 the education minister will be the one who has knowledge of education
04:12 or who has understanding of education,
04:14 then you see, it will be a matter of education.
04:17 Now, the people who have the will to win the elections
04:22 become the education minister.
04:24 It is not necessary that they have education.
04:26 And also I suppose it is an issue which takes time.
04:29 You know, when someone finds out that a person from Delhi
04:32 is studying well,
04:34 he has got a bright future.
04:37 So it is not a one-off issue.
04:39 I suppose once people realize that,
04:42 then it takes time, isn't it?
04:44 It takes time.
04:47 And you have to work on education.
04:52 There can be many visible priorities that have to be changed.
04:55 You may have to stop the decision of building a bridge.
04:57 You may have to stop the decision of building a road.
04:59 You may have to stop the decision of building a fancy thing.
05:01 Education is not that much visible.
05:04 But education is visible in society.
05:07 You can guess by looking at the society
05:09 that how the schools here will be.
05:11 You can't guess by looking at the bridge
05:14 that how the society here will be.
05:16 One of the things that you have said in the book is that
05:19 soon you would want Delhi Heights, citizens of Delhi
05:22 to want to send their children to government school
05:25 rather than private schools.
05:27 I mean that is a really sort of an ambitious challenge.
05:29 By when do you think that is actually possible?
05:31 It is happening.
05:32 Right now in this classroom where we are sitting,
05:34 many of the children who are studying here right now
05:38 were not in government school two years back.
05:41 Two years back they were studying in some private school.
05:44 But now since we have good quality school,
05:46 we have good quality ambience of education,
05:48 we have good results also.
05:50 So now people are sending their kids to government school
05:53 from private schools.
05:54 They are transferring.
05:55 So then that is quite a quick time.
05:57 It wasâŠ
05:59 We also didn't think that it would happen so soon.
06:01 We thought that there would be a fine day
06:03 when the situation would change.
06:05 But in four years people will start changing.
06:07 Seriously, today in the school we are sitting and talking,
06:10 in this classroom at least 50% of the students
06:13 are coming from private schools and studying here.
06:15 That's amazing.
06:16 So how does the fee structure would work then?
06:19 I mean education is subsidized obviously by the government.
06:23 In Delhi it is free of cost.
06:24 It is free.
06:25 100% free.
06:26 So but don't you think that people who are leaving private schools
06:29 and who can afford to pay,
06:30 I mean would you like to have aâŠ
06:32 I mean how would you like to sort of monetize that?
06:34 No, I don't agree with this ideology.
06:37 People can afford their security also.
06:39 Tomorrow we will privatize the police.
06:41 There would be people who can afford justice also tomorrow.
06:44 Tomorrow we will say let them keep their judges private.
06:47 So it's notâŠ
06:50 I mean education is not just a job to make a career.
06:54 Education is a job to make a country.
06:57 It is a job to build a society.
06:59 What I meant wasâŠ
07:00 So the government has to invest in education.
07:04 All the progressive countries in the world have invested in their children's education.
07:09 Only then will the children grow and the society grows.
07:12 We cannot leave it to the private industry that those who can afford can bear it.
07:16 No.
07:17 Even make your education system so that everyone in the world
07:20 thinks that they have to send their children to government schools.
07:22 If I have money to send them to private schools, then I will send them to private schools.
07:26 But the rich will also send their children to government schools.
07:29 What I meant wasâŠ
07:33 People who didn't say do we need the education to be subsidized.
07:38 Like say people have left out gas cylinders.
07:41 You know, what they are taking without subsidy.
07:43 Do you think you can have some kind of a dual fee structure is what I am talking about.
07:47 For me, there is a huge difference between a gas cylinder and education.
07:51 I use gas cylinder to cook food at home.
07:54 But I teach my child in education.
07:56 So, he is not just a citizen of the house, he is not just a member of the house,
08:00 he is also a citizen of this country.
08:02 He is also a human being.
08:04 So, if we have to create a human being, if we have to create a citizen,
08:08 it's not subsidy.
08:10 I ask the opposite, why should people pay for education?
08:13 Nations should take care of the national education.
08:16 Nations education.
08:18 It's not subsidy.
08:20 I disagree with this word.
08:22 Education should not have a cost.
08:25 Tomorrow, I say privatize the army.
08:28 It will not happen like this.
08:29 The army will do the work of protecting the country.
08:31 So, the government schools will have to do the work of educating the country.
08:36 You are failing, that's why you have to create a private education system.
08:40 You know, you have started as you mentioned in the book,
08:43 various sort of unheard of things in government school.
08:46 Like for instance, this simple thing like a parent-teacher meeting.
08:49 You know, it never used to happen for various reasons.
08:52 You know, you could, but you know, so how was, like for instance, this experiment,
08:56 I hear a lot of good things about it outside.
09:00 You know, people have never met their children's teachers.
09:04 You know, it's the first time.
09:06 It used to happen.
09:07 Teachers of private school, government school could not meet.
09:10 Parents did not have access to come inside.
09:13 We broke that.
09:15 And parents did not have the confidence that we can go to school,
09:18 meet the principal, teacher and talk.
09:20 So, we made the school, especially the parent-teacher meeting, very welcoming.
09:24 We had the first parent-teacher meeting.
09:26 So, we promoted it a lot, added it on the radio,
09:29 added it on the newspapers, TV, I mean not on TV, but added it through SMS.
09:34 So, we encouraged people.
09:36 So, the big people came to know that for the first time, PTM is being held in a government school.
09:40 So, they told their driver, their maid, their driver, everyone,
09:43 "Your child is studying in a government school, right?
09:46 So, you go to PTM and take a leave."
09:48 This happened actually.
09:50 After that, when they came to school, they were welcomed with tikka,
09:54 welcomed with flowers, they were welcomed,
09:57 they were offered tea, biscuits, etc.
10:00 "You are welcome. You are important to us."
10:03 And then a child, like in a private school,
10:05 they were asked, "Which class does your child study in?"
10:07 They were received from the school gate and escorted to that class.
10:10 They were told there.
10:12 In between, they were told that I am taking you to the classroom of the class teacher.
10:15 This subject is in the teacher's class. You can meet him too.
10:18 So, all this increased their comfort level, increased their confidence level.
10:22 Today, parents are confident about their child's school.
10:26 They are confident in asking questions.
10:29 They are confident in talking to their child.
10:33 So, this environment has changed.
10:35 And, you know, teaching used to be this, you know, the most honorable vocation that one could do.
10:40 Somehow, in between, it had become, I think, quite, you know, commercial.
10:43 And, you know, the teachers started getting a bad name.
10:46 You know, that they are really not interested.
10:48 They don't attend schools. They don't really take classes.
10:50 So, you know, this mentality, I mean, you know, I can imagine how difficult it would be
10:56 to really sort of get into their heads and sort of, you know, change that.
11:00 How would you continue doing it?
11:03 Look, some traditions have started.
11:08 Good traditions that have started will continue.
11:12 Budget will be needed continuously.
11:14 In education, if I am not saying 25% every year, maybe somewhere, in some year it could be 20%,
11:21 some year it could be 30% also, if needed.
11:24 It depends on the need.
11:25 As and when required, you will have to spend money.
11:28 You will have to develop new ways of teacher training.
11:33 Many new things will happen.
11:35 A new board of education will be formed in Delhi.
11:38 Many new universities will be formed in Delhi.
11:40 In fact, I say this about the whole country, the examination system has to be changed.
11:45 If the examination system does not change, then the same rote learning will continue.
11:49 We will keep talking about the learning outcomes.
11:51 So, these changes will happen.
11:53 I hope that very soon these changes will also be seen.
11:55 You know, of course, here we are talking about a sort of urban scenario, you know, it's a city we are talking about.
12:00 Do you think this kind of changes that you are talking about, you know, you are mentioning,
12:04 can they be transposed to say, you know, Madhya Pradesh, Jharkhand?
12:08 There is more need there.
12:10 In Delhi, if you talk about quality education, there are certain private schools that have maintained quality education.
12:17 Today, our government schools are competing with them, standing with them, and fulfilling that responsibility.
12:22 But if you look at the villages, the government schools are completely shut down.
12:27 In fact, they are closing down.
12:29 Maharashtra, Madhya Pradesh, Chhattisgarh, Uttarakhand, I know the names of many states where government schools are being shut down.
12:36 And private schools are not seen in the village market.
12:40 So, there is a huge shortage of quality education.
12:43 That is why it is very important that the government school system works properly there.
12:47 And it is important in the whole country that the government school system works properly.
12:51 Do you have this fear that suppose there is a regime change or some new government comes,
12:57 what if this whole thing is dismantled and, you know, I mean, or are there,
13:02 what are you trying to do to, you know, fix things so thatâŠ
13:06 I personally feel people of Delhi will vote for education this time.
13:10 And this would be the first ever election in our country which will be contested on the issue of education.
13:15 You are trying to ask me to say, assume if we fail.
13:21 Yes.
13:22 Agree. If we fail, education fails.
13:24 Then no one in the country will talk about education. Then people in the country will make fun of it.
13:30 That, you see, there was a party that spent five years on education, spent all the money on education,
13:35 people do not vote. But I have quite faith in people of Delhi.
13:39 The love and respect they showed, the education, we had promised education,
13:44 we had voted on the promise of education, we have just done it.
13:48 These schools, which you see, such magnificent desks and all, all these, I mean,
13:54 these were torn, there were cracks in these rooms, there were broken walls.
13:58 I will show you some pictures, I am sure the principal must be having some pictures of that era.
14:03 All these were broken. Today, they are shining.
14:06 I had to work hard for a year to get these desks, otherwise it was a tradition to buy torn desks.
14:12 So, if the regime changes, then first of all someone will take out the desk and sell it.
14:19 The same torn desk will come.
14:21 See, that is what, I mean, isn't that a fear? I mean, you know, I completely agree.
14:24 I am quite confident.
14:25 You know, I completely agree with, I salute your confidence, but you know, at a time,
14:30 at the election time, there are so many other factors, you know, there are so many,
14:33 I am only saying that what are you making it to make sure that even the, you know,
14:37 even if there is a regime change, this doesn't change.
14:39 You see, education will only be good when there is honest politics.
14:43 If people don't choose honest politics, if people don't choose committed politics,
14:47 then education will not be good. And we have to accept this hard reality.
14:51 Why are government schools being shut down in other states?
14:55 Why is the condition of the government schools from desks to rooms so bad?
14:59 Because there is no intent of politics there.
15:01 If we don't choose such politics, which will give our children a good future,
15:07 which will take care of our children's education, then it's our choice.
15:12 So, it's not going to happen. If you, all your life, like we used to hear a story in Chhota Pin,
15:20 that there was a king, his life was in the parrot.
15:22 Here, all life is in politics. If you want to correct education,
15:26 you have to bring politics committed to education, there is no other option.
15:30 If that politics fails, education fails. Yes.
15:36 Thank you very much, Mr. Sodiar. It was great talking to you.
15:41 And I am sure it will show results. Thank you very much. Thank you for joining BBFed.
15:45 [Music]