Swami Mukandananda, who took sanyas in the 1980s after graduating from IIT and IIM, talks about Business Stress, Greed, Changing Mindsets and his belief in God, firmly rejecting science while choosing to attribute "all creation to the creator."
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00:00 You are claiming that there is no God.
00:02 No, I said there is no evidence of God's existence.
00:05 But tomorrow if it is proved that God exists, I will accept it as a scientific evidence.
00:11 But you told me that how come you believe as a man of science, how can you believe in
00:15 God when science has proved there is no God.
00:17 I didn't say proved.
00:18 There is no God.
00:19 I never said that.
00:20 Okay, so that means.
00:21 I say we do not know.
00:22 Perfect.
00:23 That's fine.
00:24 Hello and welcome to Biblio, the Outlook program on books where we interview the authors of
00:37 the latest books.
00:38 Today we have in our studio Swami Mukarnan who has written a book.
00:44 His latest one is Seven Mindsets for Success, Happiness and Fulfillment.
00:49 Swami has taken sannyas in the 80s after having passed out from IIT and IIM.
00:58 We will talk to him why he did this to begin with.
01:01 So Swamiji, why did you take sannyas?
01:05 Namaste, Haridevji.
01:07 Pleasure to be speaking to you today.
01:11 I decided that my goal in life is to love and to serve God.
01:19 It's just like this hand is a part of the body.
01:23 So the function of the hand is to serve the body.
01:27 In doing that it receives the nourishment that it needs.
01:31 And if you cut the hand away from the body, it is a worthless lump of flesh.
01:36 So similarly this faith came that I am a part of the creator.
01:43 And what I want, the love, the happiness, the bliss will come by serving my creator.
01:50 But how did you initially get this energy or the enlightenment as one would call to take sannyas?
01:59 While I was studying science, we were taught a number of laws.
02:06 Science is full of laws of nature.
02:08 The question in my mind was always, who is a law maker?
02:13 There is a law, there must be a law maker.
02:16 And that information was not there in the body of science.
02:19 So when I started studying the Bhagavad Gita, all of a sudden it made sense.
02:25 That yes, this world did not happen by accident.
02:29 There is a creator.
02:31 So the desire developed to know that creator.
02:35 And I started practicing my sadhana, my devotion as a result of which the mind got attached.
02:42 There is a saying that the call of God is the strongest call in your life.
02:47 I experienced that myself.
02:49 We will come to those and other issues that you have mentioned in the book.
02:53 But let's begin with something which in the modern world has a major impact on businesses.
03:01 Which is the business mindset.
03:03 There is, like people say, those who are in the business, there is a lot of stress in the modern world.
03:11 You have mentioned it in your book somewhere.
03:15 How do you overcome the stress or how does religion or bhakti or belief in God help one to overcome stress?
03:25 Yes, that is a very important question, Hardevji.
03:30 In this modern world, everybody is experiencing tension, anxiety, stress.
03:37 So how do you manage the stress is a very common question.
03:42 Now people utilize varieties of techniques for stress management.
03:48 Like yoga, tai chi, listening to music, meditation.
03:52 All these do help because they slow down the mind and naturally it reduces the stress.
03:59 But they don't go to the root of stress.
04:03 So the root cause of stress is attachment of our mind to the fruits of our efforts.
04:12 So when we are attached to results, that is what is stressing us.
04:17 The deeper concept.
04:18 Exactly.
04:19 So Shri Krishna gave the formula 5000 years ago.
04:23 He said, "Karmanye vadika raste, ma bhale shukaya kadachana."
04:28 Put in your best efforts but leave the results unmanifested.
04:33 Okay, let's get to some of those concepts that you have mentioned in your book.
04:38 I found somewhere you have extensively written about greed.
04:42 Yes.
04:43 Without defining what greed is actually, what in your concept is greed?
04:49 Greed is enhanced desire.
04:53 This desire is such a disease.
04:58 We think, I have got this one desire, if I can satiate it, I will then be contented.
05:05 But the problem is, the more you have, the more you want.
05:09 So initially somebody thinks, if I can be a millionaire, I will be happy.
05:13 And after a million, then the person thinks, if I can become a billionaire, I will be happy.
05:19 So the moment you fulfil desire, the greed comes.
05:23 Now the solution is either to give up desire or to purify the desire.
05:30 Purify desire means to develop a higher desire.
05:34 The desire for love, the desire for service, the desire for divine fulfilment.
05:41 But does it mean there is a limit to what you should acquire?
05:47 I am asking you in this context of business people, who have one company, then have two companies, hundred companies.
05:54 After all, they allow other people's desires to be fulfilled.
05:59 Hundreds of employees and all that.
06:01 Would you call Mukesh Ambani a greedy person?
06:05 Greed doesn't depend on what we do.
06:09 Greed is an internal thing.
06:11 So business per se is nothing wrong at all.
06:16 But what is our intention?
06:18 Now that is the point that the business leaders need to understand.
06:23 Is their corporation about extracting the maximum money from the people?
06:29 Or a healthier approach is that people have need and our company is fulfilling that need.
06:38 And as a result of it, the company is earning profits.
06:41 So it's an approach of serving that the corporation is serving the people and thriving because of it.
06:49 So there is nothing wrong if a businessman sets up a number of companies or acquires millions and millions of billions of rupees.
06:58 Absolutely not.
07:00 Let's now jump to another major point in your book, which is like an underlying concept, the concept of God.
07:09 Yes.
07:10 How do you know God exists?
07:12 How do I know that you have a great grandfather?
07:21 Because I can see you.
07:23 And you could not have come about until you had a great grandfather.
07:28 So wherever I see creation, I know there must be a creator.
07:32 This world could not have got created by a big bank.
07:37 One of the biggest scientists was Isaac Newton.
07:41 You all heard of his name.
07:43 He was a firm believer in God.
07:46 He had a fellow scientist who believed that this world got created by a big bank.
07:52 So Newton created a model of the solar system and he set it in motion.
08:03 In his time, it was quite a thing.
08:05 His friend came about and he saw that and he said, "Wow, who made it?"
08:10 Then Newton said, "Nobody made it. It was just a bang and it happened."
08:14 His friend said, "How can it be? Somebody must have made this amazing thing."
08:19 Then Newton said, "If you are not willing to believe that a small model of the solar system can be made by itself,
08:26 you want me to believe that the actual thing has got made by itself.
08:30 So the actual thing must also have a creator."
08:33 We may not have seen God but we have seen his creation
08:37 and we can conclude that there must be a creator behind it.
08:41 That used to be a concept many centuries ago when like that the earth is the center of the earth,
08:48 human beings have been made by God and everything revolves around human beings.
08:53 That was a very egocentric kind of an existence.
08:58 But as scientists, as Galileo himself and other scientists expanded the knowledge,
09:05 there was less and less need to explain everything on the basis of God.
09:12 So science has actually removed many of those doubts which were being put on God's shoulders.
09:20 Today, as you know, you look out and you say, "I see the creation and therefore I believe there must be a creator."
09:29 You know you are an IIT and IIM graduate, you have read science.
09:36 You must know the theory of evolution, how everything came from single cell existence into human which is very complex.
09:45 There is so much beauty in the universe, so much knowledge and so much that people used to believe in God
09:55 because they said so much beauty cannot exist without a creator.
09:59 Yet Charles Darwin proved and in many ways proved I mean to say by own evidence
10:07 that everything came, the whole life originated from a single cell.
10:13 Yet you even put a claim that God must have created everything.
10:17 How did he create? Why did he create?
10:19 Well, to think that science has evolved and so there is no need of God is only a perspective without any proof.
10:29 Even today the best of scientists are saying that behind all of this amazing creation there must be a God.
10:38 I received a book called The Language of God. It was written by Francis Collins, one of the most eminent scientists in the world.
10:47 He is presently the director of the National Institute of Health in Washington DC.
10:53 So he was the head of the first human genome project.
10:57 A group of scientists from around the world, they gathered together to decode the human genome.
11:05 And finally when they did it, Bill Clinton, he took the stage along with Francis Collins to announce this to the world.
11:15 And subsequently Francis Collins wrote this book, The Language of God.
11:21 And he said me, an acclaimed scientist having decoded the genome should now say there is no need for God.
11:30 But my faith in God has only increased because the genome is so complex.
11:37 If you start writing that information on A4 size sheets, those sheets will stock up to the height of the Washington monument.
11:47 And if you start speaking them at the speed of three syllables a second, it will take 31 years to complete.
11:55 Right. Now as far as Charles Darwin is concerned, he never proved anything.
12:00 He only gave an assumption. And even today, the theory of evolution has no proof.
12:07 Supposing somebody comes...
12:08 I am sorry to say that. In phalanthrology, in genetics that you are talking, the proof of Charles Darwin has been not proof.
12:18 It's called theory of evolution, but it's not really a theory.
12:22 It has got enormous amount of proofs. Thousands of scientists have worked on it and they all agree that evolution happened.
12:29 That God was... there was no need for God. What did God create?
12:35 I mean as far as human beings, animals, plants, earth, universe, did he create everything one by one?
12:43 Or did he put in a mechanism or formula which started to go on?
12:47 Because that's what your argument of free will should lead to eventually.
12:51 No, the free will is the intrinsic quality not of God out here.
12:57 We are referring to the intrinsic quality of the soul within.
13:01 In other words, you, the soul, have got the freedom of choice.
13:06 And that's...
13:07 The soul exists beyond the body.
13:09 Yes.
13:10 And they keep on existing.
13:12 The soul is eternal.
13:13 Of course, soul is eternal.
13:14 That's right.
13:15 So today, there are almost 7 billion souls on earth. Where did these souls come from?
13:19 There are not 7 billion souls. There are infinite souls.
13:23 Because wherever there is life, there is the presence of the soul.
13:28 So every amoeba, every bacteria, every virus that ever lived on earth had a soul.
13:36 Wherever there is life, there is a soul.
13:39 Now supposing you have a tree.
13:41 What happens to these souls?
13:43 What happens to the souls?
13:45 The souls are on a journey.
13:48 In other words,
13:49 "Karama Pradhana Vishwa Gari Ratha, Jo Jas Kare So Tas Bhalucha Gha"
13:56 Based on the karmas of the soul, based on the consciousness of the soul,
14:01 it's transmigrating from body to body to body.
14:05 So it's the 8.4 million species of life which our Shastras say.
14:10 Today science is validating.
14:12 No, nobody is saying there are 8.4 million.
14:14 In the BBC there was an article.
14:16 They said the latest count of the number of species is 8.17 million.
14:21 I said 84 lakh, our earlier said.
14:24 Did you know that 99% of all the species have become extinct?
14:29 Nevertheless, today's estimate is that the number of species that are present are 8.17 million.
14:37 That's open to question.
14:39 Sure.
14:40 So getting back to the creation question.
14:42 Yes, so Bhagavan is Sarva Karana Karanam.
14:47 That means anything that exists, he is the cause of it.
14:51 So he is the creator of all the elements of creation.
14:54 "Pritvi, Jal, Tej, Vayu, Akash"
14:56 And he is the creator of all the souls as well.
15:00 And anything that is a combination of all of these.
15:03 So anything that is in existence, he is the cause.
15:06 So you don't believe in evolution?
15:09 You know if there is an evolution, that evolution also has a supreme intellect behind it.
15:16 Now suppose there were creatures without the eyes.
15:19 From that you say creatures evolved with the eyes.
15:23 It's not a random mutation.
15:25 It's a million trillion step mutation.
15:28 In other words, the eye is so complex.
15:31 When number of things get together, they work as the eye.
15:36 So Darwin's theory is explaining very simply.
15:39 There was a random mutation that was more stable.
15:43 It survived.
15:44 But in this case between creatures that did not have the eye to creatures that had the eye.
15:51 There were trillions of steps and none of them could function as a stable mutation.
15:56 So if we say that there was evolution, there must have been an intellect that was guiding the process.
16:03 So God guides the process.
16:09 He doesn't create it.
16:11 He doesn't create a human being.
16:14 He didn't create a human being.
16:16 No, no. See the point is the material energy is working under his direction.
16:21 It's not like the factory manager has to work on every machine.
16:26 And yet he is in charge of all the production that takes place.
16:29 So the Bhagavad Gita says Maya Dhyakshen Prakriti Suyate Sarcharacharam.
16:35 In other words, Arjun, I govern the material energy and it creates different life forms.
16:42 I'm still not clear as to when God intervened.
16:47 He started the process.
16:50 At least a single cell animal or plant or whatever nature that was the beginning or RNA,
16:57 whatever the complexity of DNA as you say.
17:00 If you want to understand it simply, okay, let's have it that way.
17:03 So he created that and left everything else to time.
17:06 No, no. See the laws of nature are under God.
17:11 Isn't it? So if there is a law, where did the law come from?
17:15 Supposing there was a bank, there must be complete chaos.
17:18 If you say there are laws in existence, you tell me that from a bank where did the laws come from?
17:26 We look back and we see that if we exist today in this position, in this form,
17:31 there must have been laws for it to exist.
17:34 And science looks at those laws and sees.
17:38 Nobody knows. I cannot say whether God does not exist.
17:41 But I see that all the things that people have been claiming over the years,
17:45 slowly one by one by one, they've all been removed by science,
17:49 which were there as a question mark.
17:53 Yet the belief in God remains still as strong as ever.
17:57 Have you actually studied science?
17:59 If you go into science, what you will find is that the more we know,
18:04 the more we realize we do not know.
18:06 Yes, I agree. Science never claimed all knowledge.
18:09 Science says we know this.
18:11 Maybe like Newton said, you give the example,
18:14 that I stand on the seashore and I look at this bright little pebble,
18:20 which I think is my knowledge while the whole ocean remains undiscovered.
18:24 So there is a lot to be discovered. Yet science never claims total knowledge.
18:30 Only religious people claim knowledge.
18:33 Saying that God created everything, we should not question that.
18:36 See, we are not denying science. We are saying science is fine.
18:40 But you are denying God.
18:42 So how can you assume that there is no God?
18:46 Do you know everything?
18:47 I never said that.
18:48 Maybe the one thing you don't know is God.
18:50 We don't know about God. I cannot say that.
18:53 See, the point is like this. Do you know everything?
18:56 No, absolutely not.
18:57 If you don't know everything, that means the one thing you don't know may be God.
19:00 Not only one thing, I don't know thousands of things.
19:02 But I do not claim knowledge like you do that God exists.
19:06 How do you know?
19:08 You don't have any divine knowledge more than I do or more than any other third person.
19:13 You are claiming that there is no God.
19:15 No, I said there is no evidence of God's existence.
19:18 But tomorrow if it is proved that God exists, I will accept it as a scientific evidence.
19:24 But you told me that how come you believe as a man of science, how can you believe in God when science has proved there is no God?
19:30 I didn't say proved. There is no God. I never said that.
19:33 I say we do not know.
19:35 Perfect. That's fine.
19:37 But you claim knowledge without the basis of logic, science or any evidence.
19:47 How do you get knowledge? That's the question.
19:50 See, the point is, the theory of evolution is only a theory.
19:56 You can go back and check.
19:58 It is not being proved.
20:00 It has not been proved.
20:02 It's only a theory.
20:03 You are choosing to believe it.
20:05 It is called theory because it was called theory in the beginning.
20:08 Yet since the last more than a century, there have been hundreds of experiments.
20:13 Palaeontology, the whole science shows that things evolved from simpler...
20:21 Okay, tell me. I will give you one logic.
20:24 Now you are talking of palaeontology.
20:27 If apes evolved into human beings, it was a gradual evolution.
20:34 That means 90% ape, 10% human, then 80% ape, 20% human.
20:39 It doesn't happen like that.
20:41 It happens like you said, sudden mutation and then natural selection.
20:47 Even sudden mutation.
20:48 Some apes were there, one ape got...
20:52 See, this is the whole millions of...
20:54 So it was a gradual process.
20:56 It is a gradual process.
20:58 So if it is a gradual process, those intermediate species, their fossil remains should be available on the earth planet.
21:06 But there are fossil remains of intermediate species of hundreds of other...
21:10 No, but I tell you what, the fossil record of the planet earth completely goes against the theory of evolution.
21:18 Go and check it up again.
21:19 I did check up. I read a lot on this.
21:22 In fact, you should check it up.
21:23 I have checked it up.
21:25 Since you are an IIT graduate and IIM graduate, that's why I wonder how this...
21:31 So you don't believe man evolved from apes.
21:33 Your theory is that an IIT and IIM graduate should not believe in God.
21:38 My theory is that a scientist should not believe in God.
21:42 Okay, so your theory is that a scientist should not believe in God.
21:45 What would you talk about Francis Collins, who has written the language of God?
21:49 Like you said, there are many scientists who believe in God.
21:51 That's not my contention.
21:53 Okay, so what about Newton himself?
21:55 Stephen Hawking, one of the brightest minds of this century, I have just read.
21:58 What about Newton himself?
21:59 He has written a book now, saying that God could not exist.
22:03 But of course, it's still a theory.
22:06 We have no proof that God does not exist.
22:08 Stephen Hawking has given the brief history of time.
22:12 In his latest book, which he will publish after this...
22:14 No, but his brief history of time.
22:16 He says this is how creation happened.
22:19 And he has not proved anything.
22:21 He was not there when creation happened.
22:24 It's a whole bunch of assumptions.
22:26 Neither were you.
22:27 Right?
22:28 But I am not claiming.
22:29 You are claiming God made it.
22:31 So the claim is all on your side, not on the science side.
22:35 Science claims only after looking at the...
22:38 It's the same thing.
22:39 If you are saying that an engineer should not believe in God,
22:42 So you are saying that...
22:44 That's my personal thing.
22:45 That means you are saying that God does not exist.
22:48 That's what it is.
22:49 You say for me, God does not exist.
22:52 Till it is proved, till there is evidence for it.
22:54 Right.
22:55 So my point is that you say there is no God without proving that statement.
23:01 And you say it's just logic.
23:02 No, no. I am saying there is no proof of God.
23:05 I am not saying God does not exist.
23:07 I said I don't have proof that God exists.
23:09 Okay.
23:10 So you are saying there is no proof of God and then how can you say that I am wrong?
23:14 I am not saying you are wrong.
23:15 Did I say you are wrong?
23:16 No.
23:17 I am just looking at the assumptions underlying your belief.
23:22 Alright.
23:23 So I think...
23:24 In our country of 1.3 billion people,
23:28 there must be at least 800 million people who believe in God.
23:35 So you think they are all wrong?
23:37 There was a time when everybody on earth believed that the sun goes around the earth.
23:43 Were they right?
23:44 They were not right.
23:45 So numbers don't make sense.
23:47 So basically I am just verifying your statement that you,
23:51 consulting editor of Outlook,
23:53 are of the opinion that 800 million people in our country who believe in God
23:58 or maybe 1 billion are probably wrong in your opinion.
24:01 Could be wrong.
24:02 Let's get back to wind up this thing because we have run out of time.
24:06 How do you change the mindset of people?
24:10 Of this which is the basic...
24:13 Yes.
24:14 See,
24:15 we kind of got diverted from the book.
24:18 Yeah.
24:19 Because book is not about God.
24:20 Yeah, but the underlying concept every,
24:22 almost every chapter you have mentioned God.
24:24 So that's why.
24:25 Okay.
24:26 So the book is about mindset.
24:28 See how to think and how not to think.
24:30 Yeah.
24:31 Right.
24:32 So we have different kinds of habits that we create.
24:35 Right.
24:36 So they are physical habits.
24:38 But the way we think are our mental habits.
24:42 So these mental habits are more important than the physical habits.
24:47 And people are not paying attention to them.
24:51 So that is why in this book I have highlighted that pay attention to the way you think.
24:58 And then you can change that by repeated practice.
25:03 Just like you practice your physical habits,
25:06 you can practice your mental habits and change those as well.
25:10 Have you seen during your lectures impact on people trying to change their mindset?
25:17 Since you have talked to a large number of people.
25:20 Yes.
25:21 Over a period of time.
25:22 That's right.
25:23 So I asked this question to a corporate trainer.
25:26 I said you conduct personal development workshops.
25:30 Have you seen people change?
25:32 He said Swamiji, they changed 0 to 2%.
25:35 And I said you know what?
25:37 I have been conducting workshops all my life.
25:40 I have seen people change 100% to 100% to 500%.
25:46 And do you know why?
25:48 There are so many motivational speakers in the world.
25:52 They are teaching you how to get motivated, how to get inspired.
25:56 They are not teaching you how to purify the mind.
25:59 So that science of purifying the mind comes in spirituality.
26:05 So spirituality goes deeper in the science of motivation.
26:10 And that is why when people adopt these techniques, they actually transform.
26:15 Thank you Swamiji for this long discourse and also argument on God, greed, mindset and other things.
26:27 I would like to thank you for engaging me in this dialogue.
26:31 And it's been a pleasure speaking to you.
26:33 Thank you very much.
26:34 Thank you very much.
26:35 Thank you.
26:36 Thank you.
26:38 Thank you.
26:39 Thank you.
26:40 Thank you.
26:41 Thank you.
26:42 Thank you.
26:43 Thank you.
26:44 Thank you.