It’s the busiest time of the year for Len Green of the Green Group, a tax consulting service specializing in the horse racing industry. With April 15 approaching, he probably should have stayed home in New Jersey to work. Then again, when you are the part-owner of a horse that looks to be bound for the GI Kentucky Derby, all bets are off. Green couldn’t stay away as the stable’s start 3-year-old, Sandman (Tapit) faced eight others in the GI Arkansas Derby at Oaklawn Park. The trip was worth it as Green was there to witness a 2 1/2-length win over Publisher (American Pharaoah) that proved Sandman is a serious Derby contender.
To talk about Sandman’s triumph and even to offer some tax tips, Green was the Gainesway Guest of the Week on this week’s edition of the TDN Writers’ Room podcast presented by Keeneland.
To talk about Sandman’s triumph and even to offer some tax tips, Green was the Gainesway Guest of the Week on this week’s edition of the TDN Writers’ Room podcast presented by Keeneland.
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SportsTranscript
00:00:00For the love of the horse, for generations to come.
00:00:28Welcome to another edition of the TDN Writer's Room Podcast.
00:00:31My name is Bill Finley.
00:00:32I'm a correspondent for the TDN and co-host of the Down the Stretch radio show on SiriusXM
00:00:37Radio.
00:00:38Hey, you guys.
00:00:39Or check that.
00:00:40Hi, y'all.
00:00:41I'm Randy Moss with NBC Sports.
00:00:45Zoe Catman here with First TV and First Racing.
00:00:48Delighted to be here on a fabulous Tuesday.
00:00:50I just want to mention Alex Bregman is a big horse owner.
00:00:54If he happens to be watching this, we're one in five or one in four.
00:00:58What's going on, Alex?
00:00:59You've got to kick some butt, okay, and get my team back into the proverbial winner's
00:01:04circle.
00:01:05I wonder if he ... I bet you he is watching this.
00:01:10He's such a dedicated horse owner.
00:01:12That's a little message from the peanut gallery here.
00:01:16A lot going on last weekend, a lot going on this weekend coming up, as this is the final
00:01:22two weekends for the Kentucky Derby prep.
00:01:26Why don't we start down at Gulfstream, where Tappan Street won over Sovereignty by a length
00:01:31and a quarter.
00:01:32I think Brad Cox has done a really good job with this horse.
00:01:36He took his chance passing the Fountain of Youth, but he obviously knew what he was doing.
00:01:41He had the horse ready to run a lifetime best race in the Florida Derby, and it really looks
00:01:46like he's improving coming into the race.
00:01:50Randy, I know you and Jerry Bailey were talking about on the show, who would you ride, him
00:01:55or Sovereignty, if you had a choice between the two?
00:02:00To me, that's an easy question.
00:02:01Tappan Street, Sovereignty didn't run poorly by any stretch of the imagination, but I think
00:02:06he was just second best in that spot.
00:02:10What did you think?
00:02:11I would still ride Sovereignty if I was a jockey agent and I had a choice between the
00:02:14two going a mile and a quarter at Churchill Downs.
00:02:17I think I would still take Sovereignty.
00:02:20Brad Cox told us before the race that he thought the horse had mentally and physically improved.
00:02:25Trainers say that all the time.
00:02:26You have to take that sort of thing with a grain of salt, but that's what I saw from
00:02:30Tappan Street and primarily in this area, and Zoe would know more about this than I
00:02:35would.
00:02:36Tappan Street was the kind of horse before Saturday that jockeys always, in their vernacular,
00:02:43say you got to ride him like you're riding a bicycle.
00:02:46If you stop riding him, he'll stop running.
00:02:48You got to constantly be riding him.
00:02:51Sure enough, in all of his races before the Florida Derby, the jockey's on his belly going
00:02:57into the second turn and all the way around the second turn being hard ridden to get to
00:03:02where he's at.
00:03:03You didn't see that necessarily in the Florida Derby.
00:03:06He was much more involved on his own with the jockey not having to really ask him to
00:03:13go and I thought that was an improvement.
00:03:1694 by your speed figure, even though he is going in the right direction, that still,
00:03:22to me, in my mind at least, makes Tappan Street 10 to 1, 12 to 1 or so right now for the Kentucky
00:03:31Derby.
00:03:32I was a little disappointed in sovereignty.
00:03:33I expected to move forward given the longer stretch than he had in the Fountain of Youth,
00:03:39given his second start after a layoff, but then you think about it, Zoe, Bill Mott always
00:03:45has his horses keyed after a layoff.
00:03:48That's his MO.
00:03:49They're always ready, always at their peak performance coming off a layoff and so it
00:03:54might have been a little erroneous to expect a big step forward in sovereignty's second
00:04:02out, but I think I'm not giving up on him yet as a Kentucky Derby hopeful.
00:04:07Me neither.
00:04:08I thought he ran a very good race in sovereignty and let's just not forget that Manny Franco
00:04:12doesn't know him nearly as well as Junior Alvarado.
00:04:15The thing I'd noted about sovereignty in the race before was the fact that he doesn't love
00:04:21the kickback and he didn't get that much of a chance to get free of it.
00:04:25Once he's clear of the kickback, he'll really come running.
00:04:29I think if Manny had maybe known that or been a little bit more cognizant and got him clearer
00:04:36a little bit earlier, that might have made the difference because I have a feeling that
00:04:40he just doesn't like it.
00:04:42Once he switches leads, you can see that big galloping stride.
00:04:45So while it was maybe a little bit disappointing, I believe he'll still move forward off that.
00:04:50Tappan Street was great.
00:04:53Great to see Luis Saez winning the Florida Derby.
00:04:56I read TD Thornton's bit in the TDN about the Florida Derby and its stepping stone towards
00:05:01the Kentucky Derby.
00:05:0373 renewals.
00:05:05The runners of the Florida Derby have won the Kentucky Derby 25 times.
00:05:11That's about a one in three shot.
00:05:1315 of the winners of the Florida Derby have come back to win the Kentucky Derby.
00:05:19So it's a really good stepping stone.
00:05:21It was a good race.
00:05:22It was a good race.
00:05:23So let me ask you this.
00:05:24If your theory is correct and sovereignty doesn't do well in kickback, how's he going
00:05:30to avoid kickback in a 20-horse Kentucky Derby?
00:05:32I don't know how he's going to do it.
00:05:36I don't know.
00:05:38But I do know he does have a long sustained run and he's going to have to make it from
00:05:42the 3.8 pole and get clear.
00:05:45So if he can do that, maybe he's got a shot.
00:05:49We all know he's probably going to have to run a mile in 3.8 to avoid that kickback,
00:05:54which I don't think is going to be a problem for him.
00:05:56But maybe he's going to wake up markedly and be a little bit closer in his next start.
00:06:00I'm not sure, but that is my theory and I'm sticking with it.
00:06:05So the Gulfstream Park Oaks is the prep on the card at Gulfstream for the Kentucky Oaks.
00:06:125G, very nice horse, big favorite, wired the field by two and a quarter.
00:06:17She'll go into the Kentucky Oaks as one of the top three or four favorites I would imagine.
00:06:22The only thing I wonder about her, and I liked her race, but I don't want to take anything
00:06:26away from it, but she got a pretty easy trip.
00:06:29There was a small field.
00:06:30She got to the front in 23-3 and then the half in 47.
00:06:35I don't remember the name of the horse.
00:06:36The horse that ran second was kind of dogging her a little bit.
00:06:41But she's not going to get that kind of trip in the Kentucky Oaks.
00:06:44It doesn't mean she can't win with a tougher trip.
00:06:47But I just thought that the way that race developed, it kind of fell into her lap.
00:06:52Zoe?
00:06:53Good race.
00:06:54I was a little against her maybe bouncing, coming off of that Oaklawn trip, but I thought
00:07:00she ran great.
00:07:01Was it outstanding?
00:07:02No, but it's enough to get her to the Kentucky Oaks.
00:07:05So wishing the Gatsys family the best of luck with her.
00:07:08And she'll get a little bit more time now in between and, well, she's still got a ship.
00:07:13But yeah, good race.
00:07:15Yeah.
00:07:16I mean, in her last start in the Honeybee 6 at Oaklawn, she and Quiteside both had far
00:07:20outside post positions.
00:07:21They both had to be used a lot more early than they would ordinarily be to get over
00:07:26going to mile and a 16th to keep from getting caught wide.
00:07:29And she made it to the lead and still held on pretty gamely to be beaten just a length
00:07:33by Quiteside last time.
00:07:35We'll talk about Quiteside in a second.
00:07:37And here she controls the pace in much easier fractions, 90 buyer speed figure that compares
00:07:42to 91 for good cheer in the Fairgrounds Oaks.
00:07:45So on the surface, it was a good race.
00:07:47But like Bill said, I mean, you've got simply joking.
00:07:50We'll have some other horses in the Kentucky Oaks with speed.
00:07:52So she's probably not going to get this easy of a time on the front end in Louisville.
00:07:58So the Arkansas Derby, as we turn our attention to Oaklawn Park, was won by Sandman and co-owner
00:08:03Len Green will be joining us shortly on the Gainesway Guest of the Week segment.
00:08:08The story of the race was the trip and this insane speed duel between Cornucopian and
00:08:14Speed King, John Velasquez and Cornucopian and Rafael Bejarano on Speed King.
00:08:21The fractions were 22 and change, 45 and change.
00:08:25They were a mile ahead of the rest of the field.
00:08:27And as you'd expect, they'd hit a brick wall.
00:08:30You wouldn't expect this from Velasquez as a Hall of Famer, Bejarano was a very accomplished
00:08:35jockey.
00:08:36I don't know what was going through their mind, but that set the race up perfectly for
00:08:40a horse to come from behind.
00:08:42That horse happened to be Sandman, who, by the way, was ridden for the first time by
00:08:46Jose Ortiz, which also might have made a difference since he is just winning everything in sight.
00:08:52And Zoe, I won't put you on the saddle on Cornucopian or Speed King.
00:08:57What should have been done to avoid that situation?
00:08:59I want to let Randy go first.
00:09:01I want to hear a James McDonald, we'll see if we get a James McDonald rendition of this
00:09:08one.
00:09:09Well, we know that Bob Baffert likes to get his horses out there.
00:09:13He doesn't like to overthink things when he thinks he has a really good horse.
00:09:16And of course, Cornucopian was coming off of a six furlong sprint and he was going to
00:09:20show speed in the in the chapter called the anatomy of a suicidal pace duel.
00:09:27I think it comes down partially to trainer Ron Moquette of Speed King, who before the
00:09:33rebel stakes gave Raphael Bejarano instructions in the paddock to take back, even though this
00:09:40horse has been a confirmed front runner.
00:09:42I want you to take him back.
00:09:43There's a lot of speed in there.
00:09:44Madiget Road's in there with Baffert.
00:09:46I want you to take him back, move inside, save ground.
00:09:49It was a disastrous strategy.
00:09:52And Moquette acknowledged that and said it was my fault, said if Bejarano just hadn't
00:09:57listened to me, we might have been OK.
00:10:00And now I'm not going to say that to him again.
00:10:02I'm going to tell him just to go with it.
00:10:04And that's exactly what happened.
00:10:05I don't think they Johnny V probably didn't think Speed King had that kind of early speed,
00:10:12but it was a true radioactive suicidal pace battle and clearly set it up for Sandman.
00:10:19But I don't think you can really downgrade Sandman's effort that much because of the
00:10:29pace, because you typically get a quick pace in the Kentucky Derby as well.
00:10:35So I think you got to keep that in mind when you look at this race.
00:10:37Yeah, you really do.
00:10:39It wasn't a Hall of Fame ride, in my opinion.
00:10:43Johnny was told to go.
00:10:44But at some point you have to acquiesce.
00:10:45Bejarano wasn't sending.
00:10:47He was sitting.
00:10:49I think maybe Johnny could have maybe eased off him after the first quarter.
00:10:54They just ran too hard too early.
00:10:57Johnny was asked about the pace after the race, and he simply said, we went too fast.
00:11:01That's it.
00:11:02Turn the page.
00:11:03Move on.
00:11:04So we'll see that horse Cornucopian, who I believe is a very good horse somewhere else.
00:11:10Sandman ran a great race.
00:11:11The really interesting thing I found, and a friend of mine pointed this out, the last
00:11:165.8 running times of the Florida Derby and the Arkansas Derby.
00:11:21Now it was because of the pace.
00:11:23The last 5.8 of the Florida Derby were ran in 102.05.
00:11:29The last 5.8 of the Arkansas Derby, 104.87.
00:11:35That's a huge difference, but it's because of the suicidal pace.
00:11:39But I just thought that was just an interesting little note there for the last 5.8.
00:11:45But Sandman won it.
00:11:46Yeah.
00:11:47Anybody that studies pace and fractional times knows that when you get a race like the Arkansas
00:11:51Derby with that fast of a pace, even though there was an 8 to 10 link gap between the
00:11:56top two and the rest of the field, it still drags along those come from behind us and
00:12:01makes them run a little faster than they ordinarily would.
00:12:04For example, Publisher was way back, the maiden of Aspen since he finished second.
00:12:08He was 16.5 links back after a half mile, yet at the 3.25 mark after six furlongs, Publisher
00:12:18had run two to four links faster, depending on which guideline you use, than Tappan Street
00:12:25in the Florida Derby.
00:12:26Publisher.
00:12:27And he was way out the back end in the Arkansas Derby.
00:12:29So yeah, the pace, that's the primary reason for the slow closing fractions.
00:12:35And listening to Lonnie Briley, Publisher, great.
00:12:38He's going to go to the Derby and maiden.
00:12:39How awesome is that?
00:12:41But he's earned his way in.
00:12:42He's got more than enough points.
00:12:44Lonnie Briley was interviewed by Scott Hazleton from FanDuel and he was great.
00:12:48He said, listen, I was trying to freshen him up, getting into the race.
00:12:52I spaced his works out nine, 10 days.
00:12:55This is what he's saying.
00:12:57And he was too fresh.
00:12:58And you could see when he broke, he was a fresher kind of horse than he's been before.
00:13:02His jockey, one of the less experienced jockeys, very good on that horse.
00:13:07But he chased that fast pace, perhaps a little bit earlier, the three eights pole.
00:13:12He was moving like a winner, like he was just going to swallow them up and go on by.
00:13:17And he paid the price.
00:13:19So we'll see, perhaps back to his regular training schedule.
00:13:22And I can't wait to watch and listen to Lonnie Briley in the weeks leading up to the Kentucky
00:13:27Derby.
00:13:28I'm crossing everything I have that he gets there because it is the most awesome story
00:13:33and he deserves every bit of it.
00:13:35Yeah, it really is a cool story.
00:13:36I want to bring up one other thing about these two races.
00:13:41Happener Street cost one million dollars, Sandman, one point two million.
00:13:48And this pattern is emerging now.
00:13:50I remember back in the day, especially when the Arabs were spending big money at the sales
00:13:54where if you spend huge money on a horse, it almost guaranteed that they wouldn't turn
00:13:59out to be any good.
00:14:02Whatever these guys are doing now, you know, the Bloodstock Advisors and the Sharpies that
00:14:06go to these sales, they're getting really good at this because, you know, you see you
00:14:12don't see too many of these horses are duds.
00:14:15Maybe some of them don't get to the racetrack and you don't know about it.
00:14:18But once again, one million for Tappan Street, one point two for Sandman.
00:14:22And, you know, we've got Barnes coming up in the Sanita Derby.
00:14:27What do you cost?
00:14:28Two point three million.
00:14:29Three point two.
00:14:30Three point two.
00:14:31OK, I reversed that.
00:14:33So we'll be talking about that in a little bit.
00:14:35But I just thought that was interesting that, you know, the rich are getting richer.
00:14:39All right.
00:14:40So in the fantasy, Quiet Side had had four straight losses.
00:14:44I'm sure the trainer, John Ortiz, was a little bit frustrated because he kept excuse me.
00:14:48She kept running very well, but just couldn't get the job done.
00:14:52Now she wins the honeybee at Oaklawn Park and comes right back and wins the fantasy.
00:14:57It was a good race, a real game fight between Simply Joking, who hadn't been out for a while
00:15:03and Quiet Side down the stretch.
00:15:06Both of them, I'm sure, will go to the Kentucky Oaks.
00:15:07I think they're going there with a chance, both of them.
00:15:10I like Quiet Side moving forward.
00:15:13She won the battle.
00:15:14I honestly didn't realize until I read the article in the TDN that Johnny Ortiz was such
00:15:19a massive Star Wars fan, which I thought was really interesting.
00:15:23May the force be with him.
00:15:25And he comes out with all these Star Wars quotes now.
00:15:29It's fun.
00:15:30So Quiet Side won the battle, but it was a very good race and the force is with her.
00:15:35I wasn't.
00:15:36My brother was a Star Wars fan, not me.
00:15:38I was Calamity Jane.
00:15:39Me neither.
00:15:40I wonder if John and Anthony became the all-time leading stakes owner at Oaklawn Park.
00:15:44He's already easily the all-time leading owner, period, and races won.
00:15:49Quiet Side has run against Good Cheer once before.
00:15:51She was beaten two and a half lengths, I think, in a stakes race at Churchill Downs last fall.
00:15:56I think she's gotten better since then, but you'd have to think that Good Cheer's still,
00:16:02pending what we see from Tenma in the Santa Anita Derby this weekend, is still sort of
00:16:07the pro-tempo leader of the three-year-old Philly division.
00:16:12Simply joking, though, you pointed out, this was her first start in a while.
00:16:16She had to miss the Rachel Alexander because of a minor illness.
00:16:20So she might improve off of that effort as well going forward.
00:16:24The TDN Races Room is brought to you by Keeneland.
00:16:27Make plans to attend Keeneland's April Selected Horses of Racing Age Sale, held in the right
00:16:32place at the right time, and that will be closing day of the Keeneland April Spring
00:16:37Meet.
00:16:38That's April the 25th, right after the races.
00:16:41Entries for the print catalog closed on Tuesday, but supplements will be considered until the
00:16:46sales date.
00:16:55Still catching, Leslie's Rose, Sierra, Leon.
00:16:59Mike, five million dollars, thank you.
00:17:04Carl Spackler, a Mercy.
00:17:06She feels ready.
00:17:08Hut!
00:17:09Hut!
00:17:19Now this week's Fastest Horse of the Week, brought to you by my boy, Two Fills.
00:17:24One of those fast sires at Windstar Farm.
00:17:27Two Fills was the first three-year-old of his crop to record three consecutive 100-plus
00:17:32buyer speed figures, including 105s in the Kentucky Derby and the Ohio Derby.
00:17:37That 105 ties for the fastest Kentucky Derby buyer in the last 16 years.
00:17:42And here are two of the new foals, courtesy of Two Fills.
00:17:47A filly out of Super Gin.
00:17:49This was taken when she was at the tender age of 22 days.
00:17:53And a filly out of Sugar Sweet.
00:17:56And two more.
00:17:57A colt out of Afternoon Wedding, bred by Windstar.
00:18:00And a filly out of Lynn Low Lady.
00:18:04You go, Two Fills!
00:18:05He stands at Windstar Farm for a fee of $10,000.
00:18:09Now the Fastest Horse of the Week ran at Oaklawn Park, not in the Arkansas Derby,
00:18:12although a 99 buyer speed figure for Sandman wasn't that bad.
00:18:16But in the Grade 3 Oaklawn Mile run earlier on the card,
00:18:20one of the hottest horses at the Oaklawn Meet, Banishing,
00:18:23defeated Saudi Crown after a nice stretch battle in that race.
00:18:26Banishing is on a run himself of triple-digit buyer speed figures.
00:18:30He's good short.
00:18:31He's good longer.
00:18:32He wins here at a mile with a buyer speed figure of 102.
00:18:36Banishing, our Fastest Horse of the Week, owned by Larry Roman,
00:18:40trained by David Jacobson.
00:18:46Welcome in now the Gainesway Guest of the Week, Len Green.
00:18:50Len, how are you?
00:18:51Have you had a great weekend?
00:18:52I had a great weekend and it's great to be back with you guys.
00:18:55It's the top of the world.
00:18:59Well, of course, you're on top of the world because of Sandman winning the Arkansas Derby.
00:19:04And, Len, you're a guy who's been in racing many, many years,
00:19:08had a lot of good horses, you've run in the Derby before,
00:19:11but you've never had a derby horse like this,
00:19:14a horse that's going to be maybe third, fourth choice in the race.
00:19:18You know, the very simple but basic question, how excited are you about this?
00:19:23And, you know, are you going to bed every night dreaming of getting a Kentucky Derby win
00:19:27and having those roses draped over Sandman's neck?
00:19:30Wouldn't it be great if I said yes?
00:19:33Okay.
00:19:35You have to keep things in proportion, as you know, Bill,
00:19:39and right now I'm working eight days a week in the tax season.
00:19:43Okay.
00:19:44So that's part of it.
00:19:46But number two, I really believe that we did a strategy to try to get to this point in time.
00:19:56Including, you know, how to pick out the horse.
00:19:59I don't think any of these things just happen.
00:20:02I think you have to at least plan for them.
00:20:06Now, obviously, you have to have luck run you over,
00:20:09but there are just so many things that have happened along the way.
00:20:13Then you put the elements together.
00:20:16So, yeah, I'm excited, but I'll be more excited after we win the Derby.
00:20:23I am now.
00:20:25But, again, you guys all can understand this.
00:20:30You've got to have somebody who shortlists the horse,
00:20:33and you've got to have some friends and networking because you can't necessarily buy a horse like this.
00:20:41And then you look at it and say, wait a second, the horse just galloped.
00:20:46And then you have to have somebody with a reputation like the Wilmots
00:20:51who have a reputation of doing the right thing with the horse.
00:20:56And then, of course, it helps a little bit, Randy, to have a good trainer.
00:21:00Okay.
00:21:01But then you've got to be able to have not only a good trainer,
00:21:06but when you mix people like West Point and all the partners that we have on this thing,
00:21:17it really is a very interesting mix of characters to get them all on the same page
00:21:25so that they all make the same decisions.
00:21:27And then who rides the horse?
00:21:30And then, I mean, Torres did a very, very wonderful job with it.
00:21:34But maybe we need a different kind of rider for this.
00:21:39And then, of course, it always helps when two horses go off in a speed duel
00:21:45and you come from behind the horse.
00:21:48And then you say to yourself, boy, we were smart, weren't we?
00:21:51That's a long answer for you.
00:21:56But it really is, you know, it's the whole kind of thing.
00:22:01I mean, I still have not met Vinny Viola.
00:22:04But if it wasn't for him and CJ, we could not have done that.
00:22:08On the other hand, we set a limit on how much we're going to bid for the horse.
00:22:14And we statistically, you know, worked our way through so that we would have the million-dollar bid.
00:22:20So that usually knocks most people out.
00:22:23And somebody came back with a million won.
00:22:25And everybody said, well, that's our last bid.
00:22:27I said, well, maybe it's your last bid.
00:22:31I kind of think a million-two might do it.
00:22:34Knowing perfectly well that if you're going to buy a colt, okay,
00:22:39and you spend more than $500,000, it better win some kind of stake.
00:22:43And if you're going to spend a million, it better win a grade one.
00:22:47So statistically, my mind is saying to myself, this is fool.
00:22:51But then I say to myself, come on, how many shots are we going to have at this?
00:22:57I have a sneaking suspicion, Len, you're going to get to meet Vinny Viola in about four or five weeks in Louisville.
00:23:04So Sandman was always the kind of horse, before Saturday,
00:23:08that hinted at taking his game to the next level and really breaking through.
00:23:14But then things would happen.
00:23:15The Southwest, he broke badly from the gate.
00:23:18Then in the Rebel, he made a nice run.
00:23:21But just, you know, again, collecting all these points, running second and third.
00:23:26But then finally, finally puts it all together.
00:23:29Was it difficult to keep from getting frustrated during that run up to the Arkansas Derby?
00:23:34No, I actually have the TD in at the beginning of the year that Thornton says we are the number two candidate.
00:23:41So I kept on saying to Sandman, if you want your peppermint, you got to read this thing and get your mind.
00:23:48It's about time, you know, we're running out of time.
00:23:51Have the race.
00:23:53Of course, Randy, you're going one step further, though, as a trainer.
00:23:58OK, when when Mark Cassidy says, let's take this route.
00:24:02And I say, that's wonderful, Mark, as a strategy.
00:24:06But I don't see the races and isn't part of this thing to enjoy the races and be there for them.
00:24:14And he says, well, you've got to have faith.
00:24:16I said, I don't know.
00:24:18I said, do you have any credentials that show that you're a good trainer?
00:24:21But again, that route, that the idea of going through Arkansas, OK, has is turned to be a very, very good one.
00:24:31And I don't think we've seen the end of the of the best performance yet from Sandman.
00:24:38And so many times, as you know, OK, to qualify, you've got to really squeeze the horse to really, really win one of those races.
00:24:49I don't think we squeeze the horse yet.
00:24:52So you weren't at Oakland. Where did you watch the race from?
00:24:55I actually went to Oakland.
00:24:57OK, OK.
00:24:58But I can't say that here on the on the podcast because my clients are going to say, I thought you were back to our tax returns.
00:25:08Surely they'll understand.
00:25:10I don't know. You have to ask Joey.
00:25:13All right, Len, I've got two questions for you.
00:25:16First off, what is going on with my computer?
00:25:19I've got balloons that came flying up.
00:25:21I'm not sure what's going on.
00:25:23We're celebrating Sandman.
00:25:26My first question is, who is the Metallica fan?
00:25:32Because I love the song.
00:25:35You know, it's interesting there, too.
00:25:38OK, what John Green did does every year is he takes the list of the horse names that become available again.
00:25:49And we we've been fortunate to buy about 40 horses a year, not 400, but 40 horses a year.
00:25:57So do we have a whole combination of names available so that when we actually do buy a horse, we can put it with them?
00:26:06And he just I don't know why, but we said that's a Sandman for it, that he's going to be our Sandman.
00:26:15Well, you're both Yankees fans, right?
00:26:17Yeah.
00:26:18Are you going to tell us that because Rivera?
00:26:24I'm going with the Metallica angle.
00:26:26Take my hand.
00:26:27We're off to Never Neverland.
00:26:29Neverland.
00:26:30We should play that.
00:26:31I'll go with the Mariano Rivera angle then.
00:26:34We should play that when he walks out onto the track for the Kentucky Derby.
00:26:38The crowd would go absolutely crazy.
00:26:41That would be phenomenal.
00:26:43All right.
00:26:44Second question.
00:26:45Can we just stay with that just for a second?
00:26:48I know nothing about what you and Randy and Bill know about this horse racing business.
00:26:55I really have some expertise in some other area of the world.
00:27:00So what did impress me about because all I did was gallop.
00:27:05But then I went over to see him.
00:27:07He just stood there.
00:27:09Just the presence of it.
00:27:12And in the morning, he just does not seem to get excited.
00:27:16And Oakland, if you've ever saddled a horse at Oakland, I mean, it's so damn close that, you know, nothing bothers him.
00:27:25He can go down on one foot.
00:27:28Okay.
00:27:29And suddenly spring up.
00:27:30So, again, there's a certain presence about him that I believe in.
00:27:35The University of Arkansas marching band didn't bother him either.
00:27:39Did you notice that?
00:27:41Oh, yeah.
00:27:43I noticed it.
00:27:44So I love what Mark Cassie had to say because someone said, well, you know, how good is he?
00:27:50What about when he ducked out going down the stretch when Jose hit him left handed?
00:27:55And Mark simply said, well, that just shows you how good he is.
00:27:58If he can goof around and win like that and duck out, not concentrating, imagine what he can do when he's focused.
00:28:05Yeah.
00:28:06I mean, we bought some books for him.
00:28:09I'm going to read it to him.
00:28:12And so what Jose did was I thought was fascinating to, I mean, take a minute of your time.
00:28:24A hundred years ago when I first started in the game, I said I want to know everything about it.
00:28:29So I want to give the instructions to the jockey.
00:28:33And so the first race I sat down, I said, I've analyzed this whole thing.
00:28:38I want you to go 23 seconds.
00:28:40I want you to be on the inside.
00:28:42And he turned to me and said, si, senor.
00:28:44He didn't understand English.
00:28:47So that when Jose came in, OK, and again, we picked Jose, not that Torres did a bad job.
00:28:53He did a very good job.
00:28:54It just we needed somebody with his experience and his strength.
00:28:58And he walked over and said, I've written a few races.
00:29:01In fact, I've won a few races.
00:29:03I know the track.
00:29:05And here's how I think I should run the race.
00:29:11Now, it was great that he had two other speed balls to set it up.
00:29:18So everybody looks good kind of thing.
00:29:20And as you guys know, OK, when the derby comes and what place you're going to be in, all the other luck and et cetera kind of thing.
00:29:30But, man, it's nice to be in this position.
00:29:33Now, I want TDN when that new thing comes out to have us up on top.
00:29:39Len, it was a tough year off track for you as your wife, Lois, passed away.
00:29:44And what will this mean to you when you if you win the derby?
00:29:48Obviously, it'll be a big thrill.
00:29:49But will part of you have a little bit of sadness that you weren't able to share it with your wife?
00:29:55Bill, I got to tell you, she's there with me.
00:30:00I think I would not be in this business if it wasn't for her and encouragement.
00:30:08And then she made one very big decision.
00:30:12And, again, please understand that in the real world, I'm an entrepreneur.
00:30:18I'm also a tax man, but I'm an entrepreneur.
00:30:20We have about 20 different companies.
00:30:24And I was fortunate enough to be involved in Buffalo, et cetera, kind of thing.
00:30:28So I kind of think I'm a decent, smart type of person kind of thing.
00:30:34And when John Green, who you know, came and said, you know what, I really would like to run the stable.
00:30:43And I said, no, I like to run the stable.
00:30:46I'm pretty smart.
00:30:47I analyze.
00:30:48John has done a phenomenal job.
00:30:51And Louis said to me, give him the stable to run and get out of the way.
00:30:57Okay.
00:30:58So it's been very interesting because it's a part of me that wants to make some of these decisions.
00:31:05And I'm a lot better off letting him do those types of things.
00:31:10So, yeah, I really believe in that.
00:31:14And I also believe that we're going to give 10% of the earnings, you know, to horse-related charities because that's going to be part of it also kind of thing.
00:31:25Well, that's fantastic, Len.
00:31:27I mean, look, since we got you here, we got to ask you about taxes, obviously.
00:31:31And we could spend another hour talking about taxes.
00:31:34But let's distill it down, if you can, to a couple of things that you think now heading into this 2020, actually 2024 tax season, that people in the thoroughbred industry need to be aware of and need to be focused on that maybe they might not be.
00:31:52Okay.
00:31:53We're fortunate in the sense now that you guys gave us the start.
00:31:58And now we have over 800 clients in the horse business.
00:32:03And I think that's partially because we have so many horses that we own that we actually know the right answers as opposed to an accountant who just theoretically does it.
00:32:18So, we see all the things that are happening.
00:32:22The biggest problems that we see is people still are owning horses individually and file Schedule Cs or Fs.
00:32:33Stupid, okay?
00:32:36It should be a two-person LLC that gives them the protection against liability and it gives them a pot load of more tax deductions than they can get as an individual.
00:32:51Number two, a lot of people join partnerships, which is a phenomenal thing because you can spread the risk and you can get involved in better horses, et cetera.
00:33:01You can network with people, kind of thing.
00:33:04But they don't realize that they also get a big advantage, something called active versus passive.
00:33:11If you're active in the horse business and you lose money, you can take the deductions against every kind of income.
00:33:18If you're passive, you can be very limited.
00:33:21But what do you have to do to be active?
00:33:24Well, normally it's 500 hours.
00:33:27But if you're part of a partnership, it's 100 hours.
00:33:32And then when you add watching your TDN, okay, you could fill that 100 hours very, very easily.
00:33:38You can be active.
00:33:40So, again, that's a real advantage to be able to take the deductions versus not, plus the fact you get a chance to talk to trainers and other things.
00:33:50So that's another very, very big thing to do.
00:33:55And, again, strategy-wise, you've got to have strategy.
00:34:00You can lose money, but you've got to have strategy.
00:34:04You can't say, hey, I'm doing the same thing year in and year out, and I'm losing money, and then try to explain to the IRS that this is a business.
00:34:13Nobody would be in business losing money every year without changing the strategy.
00:34:18So if you're losing money because you're claiming horses, well, then maybe go into buying horses.
00:34:23If you're losing that, maybe you want to go into pinhooking.
00:34:26But at least or brute or bare, eventually, there's so many different aspects of this game that you have a chance to make money on.
00:34:36And then if you really want to make money, okay, go ahead and win the Breeders' Cup the way we did a couple of times and sell the horse or be a contender to the derby, and you get all kinds of offers and things.
00:34:48I mean, it's a very easy game, right?
00:34:51I love your last one, own a Sandman.
00:34:56Own a Sandman really makes some sense.
00:35:01And again, own it with a – if you're going to go in a partnership, go into the partnership beforehand and say, hey, what if?
00:35:11What if we have to change trainers?
00:35:14What if we have to sell the horse?
00:35:16What if we have to decide on what farm?
00:35:20Let's have a system in place, okay, and even to the point of how do we split up the number of tickets that go into the paddock or into the winner's circle?
00:35:34Because you've got to preplan these things because there's no emotion if you preplan it before it happens.
00:35:40You try to do it now and say, well, who gets the right number of tickets and what have you?
00:35:45Well, West Point has 100 and so on.
00:35:48It doesn't work that way.
00:35:51So I guess what I'm saying is think about not only the present situation but the future situation also kind of thing.
00:36:01And again, from a tax point of view, if you're losing money every year, take a minute maybe and write this guy Len Green a note because he does free consultations and he can probably point out some things that you're doing wrong.
00:36:21And Len, what are the things that the IRS is currently examining?
00:36:28Oh, the big one that you're doing right now is hobby losses before.
00:36:35No, it's a great question.
00:36:36You should be in this business for asking questions.
00:36:42How did I miss that one?
00:36:43Right.
00:36:45Number one thing.
00:36:47The IRS used to examine returns and Biden hired a whole bunch of people so that they would figure that the horse people lost money so they would disallow deductions.
00:37:01They've shifted.
00:37:02They said, why worry about disallowing deductions?
00:37:06Let's go after the hobby loss rules.
00:37:09Because if we can prove that you're in a hobby loss, well, then the income is still taxable.
00:37:15But zero of the deductions are allowed.
00:37:20That's a goldmine kind of thing.
00:37:23But there's nine tests, Mr. Internal Revenue Service person.
00:37:28And I think we saw it.
00:37:29Yeah, but you lost money every year.
00:37:33That's what they're going after.
00:37:35And it's very, very difficult.
00:37:37And you better have somebody representing you who knows the business and can point out, you know, yes, we lost money that year.
00:37:46But if the horse hadn't gotten hurt, if the horse had been able to stand its stud, if the horse had been able to do, then everything else could have changed.
00:37:56Because if it had won this, let's say it wins the Arkansas Derby.
00:38:01Well, that horse is worth millions of dollars.
00:38:04We can prove that because farms are offering millions of dollars.
00:38:09So even though you may have lost money for the year, here's the potential.
00:38:14Or you own a farm.
00:38:16And while you've lost money in the horse business, the farm is appreciated in value.
00:38:21Now, if you're not in the business, you don't know that.
00:38:24If you're just an attorney or an accountant who doesn't know the business, well, then you look to see the paper thing.
00:38:32But if you're in the business, you can realize, OK, that there is that much more potential for it.
00:38:40And we actually, in a recent case, OK, called a couple of former trainers, Karen McLaughlin, Todd Butcher, et cetera, Chad Brandt, and said, hey, what potential did this horse have before it got hurt?
00:38:53And then you get all ideas of what the value is.
00:38:57And those are real ways to combat it.
00:39:00Thank you for asking the question.
00:39:04Well, Len Green, I want to thank you so much for being our Gainesville guest of the week.
00:39:08And congratulations on Sandman's win in the Arkansas Derby and good luck in the Kentucky Derby, which is right around the corner.
00:39:15And good luck in getting me at the top of the TDN.
00:39:19Thanks again, Len.
00:39:23Len Green, our guest of the week, brought to you courtesy of Gainesway, which, of course, is the home of Tappan, one of the most influential and breed shaping stallions of the past half century.
00:39:33He was the sire of Flightline and Tappan is also the sire of Sandman.
00:39:38After that, Arkansas Derby, of course, headed to the Kentucky Derby, America's most dominant sire.
00:39:42Tappan has sired 33 grade one winners, has had 40, 40 yearlings, bring $1 million or more at auction.
00:39:50And his progeny have earned so far over $215 million, the most ever by any North American sire.
00:39:58Tappan still stands standing strong at Gainesway for a fee of $185,000.
00:40:12And that leads us right into this week's edition of First Things First, where I caught up with Umberto Rispoli.
00:40:41Umberto Rispoli to talk about perhaps a little case of Derby fever.
00:40:50Joined by Umberto Rispoli, do you have any Derby fever yet with journalism?
00:40:54I'm just really interested.
00:40:56No, I'm just relaxed and quiet.
00:40:59You know, it's going to be obviously some adrenaline is going to pop up the time then we want to walk to the paddock.
00:41:05I think this is part of the game, but I'm getting mature enough to hold my emotion and, you know, working on that definitely.
00:41:14Take me through his last work. It looked like it was just an easy maintenance drill for him.
00:41:19Yes, actually, even when he works by himself, he's very lazy.
00:41:23He likes more the company and he starts his work slowly and then we finish up pretty strong.
00:41:28The key was making a good gallop out as we're going to go further in the distance.
00:41:33We just, you know, given the maintenance going on a five furlong and a very good gallop out like Michael likes with those type of horses, you know,
00:41:40then they go make an effort to go on a mile and an eight and really gallop out pretty strong.
00:41:45How does he handle everything on race day?
00:41:47Because there'll be a few more people here on Saturday leading up to the Derby.
00:41:51How is he mentally?
00:41:53Look, I hope he's going to handle like he handled it last time.
00:41:57Even if I almost fall off behind the gate, I don't know, he was scared about the cars with the ambulance and stuff like that.
00:42:05And you go left and right and I was grabbing the main and I was asking my pony rider, forget about me, just hold him.
00:42:12If I fall off, I said, just hold him.
00:42:16But I mean, it's hopefully, you know, it's going to be even a better schooling for him.
00:42:21And towards going to the Kentucky Derby, they're going to be five, six times more people than here.
00:42:27So honestly, I don't think it's going to be a concern for him.
00:42:31As I said, it's funny because Brad Fried the other morning, he asked me, he said, how are you going to describe the personality of this horse?
00:42:39I said, you see Michael McCarthy as a human being.
00:42:41This horse is like, he builds the horse exactly like him.
00:42:44He goes out there, he does his job.
00:42:46He doesn't want to talk with nobody and he goes straight to the point.
00:42:49So I think Michael build his own personality as his own horse, his own personality.
00:42:55That is awesome. I'm just going to call him Michael from now on.
00:43:04Many thanks to Ambi. And guys, I thought it was particularly funny that he refers to journalism as Michael,
00:43:12because he says he's just like Michael McCarthy, doesn't want to talk to anyone, just do his job.
00:43:17All right, let's move on and talk about Santa Anita.
00:43:20What's coming up this weekend? Well, on Friday, we have a 10 race card.
00:43:24We also have a pick six carry over guys over $100,000 in the Kitty Pool, expected to exceed 500,000.
00:43:31That will start in race number five on Friday.
00:43:34A huge day of racing with the first racing tour on Saturday.
00:43:38We have 12 races. You can come out early and run or walk with me in the 5K.
00:43:44We've got three graded stakes on the day.
00:43:46We also have a beer festival. Maybe I'll just take the day off, put my feet up and drink beer and watch Randy on NBC.
00:43:54It's going to be a terrific day of racing at Santa Anita. We hope you can join us there.
00:44:00So we move on to what's coming up this weekend and we'll start with Keeneland.
00:44:04And we're going to talk about the Phillies first because the Ashland stakes has been drawn.
00:44:09We know who's going to be in the bluegrass, but that race has yet to be drawn.
00:44:12So pardon us if we mess up a little bit on some of the horses, because it's not easy doing this without the best performances.
00:44:21The Ashland is an interesting race for a number of reasons.
00:44:24One, I want to see if Mujima can bounce back off the honeybee.
00:44:29Glenn Green was talking about the polls and TD Thornton had Sandman early on second.
00:44:37I had Mujima at first in my when I do the Kentucky Oaks poll.
00:44:41Then when she got beat in the honeybee, I obviously dropped her out of first place.
00:44:45And good cheer now is number one. But, you know, can she rebound off a kind of a lackluster effort in the honeybee?
00:44:51Brad Cox doesn't do anything wrong anymore. He's got Flavian Pratt.
00:44:55I would expect her to run and improve grace and take charge.
00:44:58Milady's kind of interesting, too. She was supposed to run last week in the where was she going to go?
00:45:06She was in the fantasy, had to scratch a foot issue.
00:45:09She got beat 32 lengths in the honeybee.
00:45:11But, Randy, I think when you were talking about last week, you said that race is a complete throwout.
00:45:16And I agree with you. I actually picked her last week in the fantasy and be interesting to see what she does coming back on a layoff.
00:45:24But, Randy, who do you like in here and what are your thoughts?
00:45:26I think Mujima's got an edge.
00:45:28I mean, I was a little concerned in her last race in the honeybee because all of her previous races where she won and ran well, she had the same sort of trip.
00:45:35You know, on the lead, easy pace. And she wasn't going to make the lead in the honeybee.
00:45:39And she didn't run as well. But I think she and Super Speed are the two that I think are the to me are the leading candidates in here.
00:45:47And I think take charge. Milady could run OK as well.
00:45:50I like Super Speed. Rosario, he can be deadly on the front end.
00:45:54I justify out of an American pharaoh. That's California all day long.
00:45:59I like her for trainer John Sandler shipping east.
00:46:02If you're wondering about look forward, he's cross entered in the Santa Anita Oaks as well.
00:46:06She will run on Friday for trainer Michael McCarthy coming off, perhaps not a great effort after getting off badly at the start in the honeybee last out.
00:46:16She'll get Mario Gutierrez to ride.
00:46:20And just one more thing to mention the honeybee.
00:46:24And I thought going in, it was the best field of three year old fillies we'd seen all year.
00:46:28What a key race. One won by quiet side who came back, of course, to win.
00:46:32And we just talked about that. And then 5G was second in there.
00:46:35So the winner of the fantasy in the Florida Oaks, Gulfstream Park Oaks, both came out of the honeybee.
00:46:41And Mojima was next, running third, beating four and a half lengths.
00:46:45OK, so Saturday is the bluegrass. And this is to me, you might want to call this the redemption derby.
00:46:53There are so many horses in here that are coming off bad races or something didn't go right.
00:46:58And who's going to who's going to turn things around?
00:47:01Burnham Square, fourth in the Fountain of Youth, is the nine to five favorite.
00:47:06Caldera beaten 36 lengths on Louisiana Derby.
00:47:10That never discourages Wayne Lucas this time. He could have been could have been could have been beaten 360 lengths.
00:47:16He'd be in there. Chancellor McPatrick, second in the Tampa Bay Derby, not a bad race.
00:47:20What I'm really curious about is East Avenue. He looked so good last year coming into the Breeders' Cup.
00:47:27And he was ninth in the Breeders' Cup, juvenile.
00:47:29And then he didn't run any good at all in the Risen Star where he was 10th.
00:47:34I talked to Brad Cox after that race. He said he had absolutely no excuse.
00:47:39So let's see what happens to him if he finally wakes up.
00:47:42Owen Almighty won the Tampa Bay Derby at first.
00:47:45They weren't saying they weren't going to go to the Kentucky Derby.
00:47:47But sooner or later, Derby Fever gets them all.
00:47:50And he's going in the bluegrass trying to get ready to see if he can make it to the Kentucky Derby.
00:47:56The other, according to Keeneland's publicity department, the other two horses that are in the race are Render Judgement and River Thames.
00:48:03River Thames needs to run a big race for Todd Pletcher, because if not, he may not be may not have a horse in this year's Kentucky Derby.
00:48:08But, Zoe, what do you think? Who's going to win the Redemption Derby?
00:48:12That's a great name for it. You know who needs to ride East Avenue? Johnny B.
00:48:17That's what he needs. Just send him. It's going to be a great race.
00:48:23I'm just going to sit back and watch it. I've got no idea. Absolutely no clue.
00:48:28I'd love to see Burnham Square go for Ian Wilkes. It'll be really interesting.
00:48:33This is going to be make or break for East Avenue, as far as I'm concerned.
00:48:39Yeah, I agree. And he's not going to get an easy time on the pace in here, I don't think, because you've got Owen Almighty and River Thames in the race as well, who also have some speed.
00:48:49So I think it's going to set up for a closer. And I would think either Chancellor McPatrick or Burnham Square would be the two logical horses.
00:48:57I was a little disappointed in Chancellor McPatrick's last race in the Tampa Bay Derby.
00:49:02I thought he should run a little bit better than that, but he might be set up for a pretty good effort here.
00:49:08Petite and Riders Room, also brought to you by the Pennsylvania Horse Breeders Association, a.k.a. the PHBA.
00:49:15This week, we introduce you to the stallions at Winn Oaks Farm in Delta, Pennsylvania.
00:49:21Winn Oaks has two new stallions for 2025.
00:49:25This is By Land and Sea. Remember him? Multiple stakes winning track record breaker by Cairo Prince.
00:49:31By Land and Sea stands for $15,000 this year.
00:49:35Here is the multiple stakes winning Baron, who is also new at Winn Oaks in 2025.
00:49:40He earned just under $1 million on the track.
00:49:42He's out of the millionaire mare Silmaril, stands alongside his own sire, Wyjelia, Pennsylvania's all time leading sire.
00:49:51And finally, we have Command Post by Harlan's Holiday.
00:49:55The same sire is into mischief, BTW.
00:49:57Command Post out of a champion producing half-sister to distorted humor.
00:50:01There's a pedigree for you. He stands for $2,000.
00:50:06To learn more, you can take a look at the 2025 Stallion and Boarding Farm Directory online at pabread.com
00:50:12or you can just pick up your phone, call them 610-444-1050.
00:50:21P.A. Bread, I think we've built a brand at this point.
00:50:26It's excitement at every step.
00:50:29Roses for Deborah just set a new track record.
00:50:33On average, for the past decade, Pennsylvania paid over $28 million a year in breeders' awards, restricted races and owner bonuses.
00:50:41Plus, P.A. Bread shine on the world's biggest stage.
00:50:44Just three states have bred more Breeders' Cup winners.
00:50:48Learn more at pabread.com.
00:50:51With some of the fullest fields in the country and quality racing year-round,
00:50:56there's never been a better time to reap the rewards of breeding and racing in Kentucky.
00:51:02Purse money in Kentucky is at an all-time high, as is average purse per race, outpacing California, Florida and New York.
00:51:11Kentucky Breds.
00:51:12Breed them.
00:51:13Raise them.
00:51:14Race them.
00:51:16We all win.
00:51:21Kentucky Breds have flexed their muscles in Grade 1 events to start the year,
00:51:24and of course, Kentucky Breds dominated the most recent series of 100-point Kentucky Derby preps,
00:51:29including Tappan Street and Sandman.
00:51:31And right now, as a matter of fact, to no one's surprise, Kentucky Breds top both the Derby and the Oaks points leaderboard.
00:51:38Sandman and Quietside lead the way through the end of March.
00:51:41Sandman now has 129 points.
00:51:45After his Arkansas Derby score, Quietside, after winning the Fantasy and the Honeybee,
00:51:49is on top of the Oaks standings right now with 168.
00:51:53Kentucky Breds.
00:51:54Breed them.
00:51:55Raise them.
00:51:56Race them.
00:51:57We all win.
00:51:58So let's move west now to Santa Anita for our continuing saga of Derby prep races,
00:52:04where we have the Santa Anita Derby.
00:52:06And even though this race didn't get a big field, you wouldn't expect it to be,
00:52:10this, to me, is the race of the weekend.
00:52:12I mean, because you have three potential stars in here.
00:52:17In Citizen Bowl, he needs no introduction, Barnes and Journalism.
00:52:23Journalism is the hot horse right now after beating Barnes in his last effort.
00:52:28But the other two, Citizen Bowl and Barnes, have trained by Baffert.
00:52:32He's won the race nine times.
00:52:35He had a hard time separating these horses, but I think Journalism's last race
00:52:40and that big 108 buyer figure were enough that I think he's probably going to be my pick in here.
00:52:47But this is a fun race, and it's going to tell us an awful lot about who are going to be the strong horses
00:52:54in the Kentucky Derby.
00:52:55Yeah, it is a fun race.
00:52:57And Zoe and I were just talking about this off-camera, so to speak.
00:53:01And we both think Journalism right now – sorry if I'm stealing your thunder, Zoe –
00:53:06That's okay, go ahead.
00:53:07is the number one horse for the Kentucky Derby as we speak.
00:53:11Of course, we also thought Sovereignty would run much better than he did in the Florida Derby,
00:53:15so they've got to go out there and do it.
00:53:18But I loved his race in the San Felipe.
00:53:20I love his buyer speed figure.
00:53:22I love his post position.
00:53:23He's going to save some ground in the Santa Anita Derby.
00:53:27I think Citizen Bull, because he's drawn inside barns, will probably set the pace.
00:53:33Baez is a pretty good horse as well, but to me, it's Journalism.
00:53:39I like Journalism in here as well.
00:53:41He's come in with a great series of works for Michael McCarthy.
00:53:48You heard Umbi Rispoli talking about Journalism and how he reminds him of Michael McCarthy.
00:53:54Nothing flashy, just goes around and does his job.
00:53:56Don't want to talk to anyone, no interviews.
00:53:59So he's done everything right.
00:54:01But I will say one thing.
00:54:03Everyone underestimates Citizen Bull.
00:54:06He comes in with good works.
00:54:07Martin Garcia knows him like the back of his hand.
00:54:10He's not missed a single beat all year long.
00:54:14And he should really be the one we're all talking about, but nobody is.
00:54:18He's the little horse that can do.
00:54:20That's Citizen Bull.
00:54:21And Baez are on the outside.
00:54:23He's in desperate need of some points.
00:54:25And we do need to talk about the points have been reducted in this race by 25%.
00:54:31The winner will only get 75 points, which is going to be crucial for the likes of Baez.
00:54:36Just broke his maiden.
00:54:37He sits at zero.
00:54:38He's a good horse.
00:54:40He's probably going to be the most beautiful horse you see in the paddock on Saturday.
00:54:44Mark my words, he is gorgeous.
00:54:47So he needs to win.
00:54:49Even if you're second, you're getting 37 points.
00:54:52He's on zero.
00:54:53That barely will get him on the bubble.
00:54:55So it's crucial to Baez to run a winning race on Saturday for John Sheriffs and his team.
00:55:02But I do like journalism.
00:55:04It's a really good race.
00:55:05It's a smaller field, but I'll tell you, it might be one of the better races that we'll watch all day on Saturday.
00:55:11And let's just not forget that Bob has Rodriguez, who drew the one hole on Saturday for the Wood Memorial.
00:55:17That's a very good race as well.
00:55:18It's a full field with some very good horses in that race, guys.
00:55:22Well, the story of the Wood Memorial over the last couple of decades is that it has been probably the weakest race of all when it comes to producing Kentucky Derby winners.
00:55:32The last Wood Memorial winner to win the Kentucky Derby after back to 2000 for Fusiage Pegasus,
00:55:38the last Wood Memorial participant to win the Kentucky Derby back to 03 in Funnyside.
00:55:45And my friend Dave Grenning, he has the numbers.
00:55:48The Funnyside horses that have started in the Wood Memorial are 0 for something astronomical in the Kentucky Derby.
00:55:57But that's not a surprise.
00:55:59I mean, you know, still you've got the winter horses are in here.
00:56:04The best horses are obviously in Florida, Arkansas and California.
00:56:08Zoe, I like Rodriguez as well.
00:56:12Just because he got beat 11 and a quarter lengths to journalism.
00:56:16But I think that that cadre of horses we are talking about on the West Coast are better, much better than anything that he'll be facing in the Wood Memorial,
00:56:27including Captain Cook, who's the morning line favorite for Rick Dutrow.
00:56:30But he draws the inside and, you know, he journalism.
00:56:34There's no journalism, no Barnes in this race.
00:56:37There'd be start before that got beat by Citizen Bull.
00:56:40There's no Citizen Bull in this race.
00:56:42So I am I think the California form is going to hold up in here.
00:56:46He gets the blinkers off about 32 percent with that blinkers off move.
00:56:50Taking the blinkers off like we discussed doesn't mean they're going to take him back.
00:56:54This horse is a baby Huey, right?
00:56:56His birthday is not till May the 20th.
00:56:59He's got a lot to learn and he's been trying to pack it in a short period of time.
00:57:03So we'll see how he ships.
00:57:05I know he shipped very well.
00:57:06He shipped into Terranova's barn there.
00:57:10So he's in there.
00:57:12I like him, Captain Cook.
00:57:13Obviously, the horse to beat in here.
00:57:15But then Shug's got his horse in there.
00:57:17What's his name?
00:57:19Statesman.
00:57:20Watch out for Statesman.
00:57:22Low numbers.
00:57:23He comes in off a couple of better than looked efforts at Tampa.
00:57:27And I have a feeling that he might run a big race on Saturday.
00:57:32How about Shug sticking with Samuel Morin on that horse?
00:57:36He is good for him.
00:57:38He's being loyal to the jock that's won the last two aboard the horse.
00:57:41Yeah, there's no jocks left.
00:57:43You got some in Dubai.
00:57:44They're all over the place on Saturday.
00:57:47To me, here's the reason to like Rodriguez.
00:57:50And I agree with you.
00:57:52He wins.
00:57:53He breaks his maiden where he earned his reputation in that really fast maiden race at Santa Anita where he gets a 100 buyer speed figure.
00:58:00He had the rail that day.
00:58:01They went to the lead, as you would expect.
00:58:03He wins by seven, beats Baeza.
00:58:06Great race for Rodriguez on the front end.
00:58:10Then he comes back in the Robert B. Lewis, and he draws outside of Citizen Bull.
00:58:17So, Citizen Bull's the two-year-old champ.
00:58:20Rodriguez is just coming off of a maiden win.
00:58:23Bob's not going to have his two horses out there, his two speed horses out there going head and head for the lead,
00:58:28especially a maiden graduate hooking his champion.
00:58:32So, it's orchestrated so that if he breaks well, which he did, Citizen Bull goes to the lead.
00:58:37And now they got to teach Rodriguez to sit back off the pace a little bit.
00:58:40And he didn't get the best trip.
00:58:42He gets shuffled back.
00:58:43Then next time out, he runs into San Felipe.
00:58:45Again, he's drawn outside of Barnes, the $3.2 million yearling.
00:58:50They're not going to send Barnes and Rodriguez head and head against each other.
00:58:55So, again, Rodriguez takes the brunt of it because he's drawn outside Barnes, and they take him back off the pace.
00:59:01And he still, in those two races, hasn't run as well as he did when he was on the front end from the rail in his maiden win.
00:59:08Now, finally, he gets clear of Citizen Bull.
00:59:11He gets clear of Barnes.
00:59:12No other Baffert horses in here, kind of like Matticket, Road, and the Rebel, right?
00:59:16He escapes all that.
00:59:17Boom, goes to the lead, opens up, and runs a good second.
00:59:20I think Rodriguez goes right to the front from the rail, and I think he's the legitimate horse in there.
00:59:26And I think Captain Cook is the other one in there.
00:59:29So I think it's going to come down to those two.
00:59:32Zoe, what's going on in Dubai this weekend?
00:59:34There's an awful lot.
00:59:35We got Randy's favorite horse, Forever Young.
00:59:38We'll be running in the Dubai World Cup.
00:59:40Hitcho's in there, which I thought was extremely interesting.
00:59:43Ushpa Tesoro, that nine-year-old horse, he keeps on plugging along.
00:59:48The Nadal Shima Classic, we'll get to see Rebel's Romance.
00:59:51We got Nation's Pride in the turf.
00:59:54Straight No Chaser, all eyes will be on the Dan Blacker horse, who won in Saudi.
00:59:58He's over there running against last year's winner for Bupat Sima in Tuz.
01:00:03That'll be the Golden Shaheen.
01:00:04Interestingly enough, we see Super Chow teaming back up with Chantel Sutherland,
01:00:10who's won five of six races on Super Chow.
01:00:12Now, Chantel went over to Gallup for Bupat Sima.
01:00:16She did have a couple of rides.
01:00:17One actually resulting in a fall of a rider that she got days for
01:00:21because she dropped the rider.
01:00:23She's obviously served her days, and she will get the mount on Super Chow,
01:00:29so that's very interesting to me.
01:00:32Then the UAE Derby, Flood Zone's in there for Brad Cox going over there.
01:00:37It's going to be a good field of racing, and I'll be watching on Saturday morning.
01:00:44One more thing about the UAE Derby that I'm interested in.
01:00:47Last Saturday in Japan, a horse called Luxor Cafe wrapped up the Japan Road
01:00:52to the Kentucky Derby.
01:00:53No verification yet that they're going to bring him over.
01:00:57Visually, he's a son of American Pharaoh.
01:00:59He's bred in Kentucky.
01:01:00He's a half to regal glory.
01:01:01He looked really impressive visually.
01:01:04By the clock, not so impressive.
01:01:07There were seven races last Saturday at Nakayama in Japan,
01:01:12run at a mile and an eighth, just like Luxor Cafe ran.
01:01:15Four of them were run faster than he ran.
01:01:18There are three horses in the UAE Derby that have run against Luxor Cafe in Japan.
01:01:24It'll be interesting to see how they run in the UAE,
01:01:29and that might give us a little bit better line on Luxor Cafe.
01:01:33It's Darby, the UAE Darby.
01:01:39All right.
01:01:40Talking of Darbys, the first TV work of the week is Citizen Bull,
01:01:44trained by Hall of Famer Bob Baffert.
01:01:46He worked five furlongs in company in a Swift 58-2,
01:01:50fastest of 42 works at the distance on the day with jockey Juan Hernandez,
01:01:55who, of course, was subbing for Martin Garcia.
01:01:58That's Citizen Bull on the inside.
01:02:00His workmate is a four-year-old colt, Dothraki, who was timed in 59.40 seconds.
01:02:06Citizen Bull, in his last start, won the Robert B. Lewis on February 1st
01:02:10at Santa Anita in his only start this year.
01:02:13Last year, of course, he earned a Clipse Award as the two-year-old champion male
01:02:17after winning both the Grade 1 American Pharoah at Santa Anita
01:02:20and the Breeders' Cup Juvenile at Del Mar.
01:02:23He has a record of four wins from five starts and $1.4 million in earnings
01:02:28for owners SF Racing, Starlight Racing,
01:02:31Manicat Stables, Stone Street Stables, et al.
01:03:02With FIRST TV.
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01:03:36So the three of us talked about Sandman in the Arkansas Derby
01:03:40and we analyzed his Arkansas Derby win,
01:03:42and then we talked about Sandman to one of his owners, Lynn Green,
01:03:46and then we talked about Sandman because he's a Kentucky bred.
01:03:49Now we're going to talk about Sandman again.
01:03:52Why?
01:03:53Because the TDN Writer's Room is brought to you by West Point Thoroughbreds
01:03:57and West Point Thoroughbreds, along with Lynn Green and John Green,
01:04:00co-owners of Sandman, who, of course, rose to the occasion,
01:04:04as we mentioned in the Arkansas Derby, punched his ticket to Louisville.
01:04:07There are a dozen West Point partners that are involved in Sandman,
01:04:12so they definitely, their Derby dreams are alive right now.
01:04:17West Point will also be in the Wood Memorial.
01:04:19You guys mentioned Statesman, trained by Shug McGahee.
01:04:22That is also a West Point Thoroughbred runner.
01:04:25Can we play it? Hold on. I've got it.
01:04:33Now, you know, that's what they played at Yankee Stadium
01:04:36every time Mariano Rivera came in the game.
01:04:38I'm with Randy. This is a Mariano Rivera, not a Metallica thing.
01:04:43But we'll find out.
01:04:46All right, well, that's a wrap on this week's show.
01:04:48I want to thank my co-host Zoe Cadman and Randy Moss,
01:04:52our Gainesway Guest of the Week, Lynn Green,
01:04:54and the backstage people who work so hard to make this show work every week.
01:04:58Producers and directors Sue Finley, Katie Petruniak,
01:05:01Anthony LaRocca and Aaliyah LaRocca.
01:05:03It's going to be a great weekend of racing. Enjoy it.
01:05:06And we'll be back same time, same bat channel next week.