In this latest episode of the podcast, brought to you by Imbrace leggings, host Euan Crumley is joined by Wendy Sly and Jason Henderson to talk about the 2025 London Marathon, the legend of Steve Prefontaine and the impact of Grand Slam Track.
We are also joined by two special guests – world indoor 1500m silver medallist Neil Gourley and former European 10,000m champion Jo Pavey.
For more information about Imbrace leggings visit:
imbrace.com
Use the discount code AW95 to buy the Dynamic Leggings for £95 instead of £109
It’s a new era for AW. For more information about our new website, subscription options and how our coverage of the sport is evolving: visit athleticsweekly.com
We are also joined by two special guests – world indoor 1500m silver medallist Neil Gourley and former European 10,000m champion Jo Pavey.
For more information about Imbrace leggings visit:
imbrace.com
Use the discount code AW95 to buy the Dynamic Leggings for £95 instead of £109
It’s a new era for AW. For more information about our new website, subscription options and how our coverage of the sport is evolving: visit athleticsweekly.com
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SportsTranscript
00:00Hello, my name is Ewan Crumley and welcome to the latest episode of the Athletics Weekly
00:12Podcast brought to you by Embrace Leggings. In each show, we bring you everything you
00:17need to know from the world of run, jump and throw, analysing the biggest stories and speaking
00:21to key names from the sport. Spring has most certainly sprung and there has been lots going
00:27on in the world of athletics from the Boston and London marathons through to Grand Slam
00:31Track finally getting up and running. And later in the show, we're going to hear from
00:36Neil Gourley, the 1500 metre world indoor silver medalist who was part of that Grand Slam
00:41Track meeting in Kingston as a challenger. We'll hear too from former European 10,000 metre
00:46champion Joe Pavey. There's also a new issue of AW Magazine on the newsstand that goes in
00:53depth on the 50th anniversary of the passing of one of the sport's most talked about athletes.
00:59So to help me talk you through all of that, I'm joined by AW Head of Digital Jason Henderson
01:04and AW Managing Director Wendy Sly. Welcome to you both.
01:10So at the time of recording this, we are all still drawing breath after the London Marathon.
01:16So that seems like a good place to start. It's a record-breaking year for the London Marathon.
01:22It's become the biggest one in the world. And Jason, it feels like it's getting bigger every year.
01:29Yeah, yeah. Bigger and bigger. Record fields this year. And it was interesting over London
01:35Marathon week, we asked Hugh Brasher, the event director, you know, how big can it go? I mean,
01:42there must be a ceiling, a limit on the numbers that they can actually have on the roads. And,
01:47you know, not surprisingly, given London's professionalism, they go to the nth degree to
01:54try and work this out. You know, they work with security people and transport people. And I think
02:02they have a crowd management expert, like a world leader in the realm of crowd management.
02:09And they can push the numbers up a little bit. But they obviously do it gradually. They
02:16don't want to do it, you know, by a few thousand every year. So I think we will see it creep
02:21upwards and upwards in the next few years. But at the moment, yeah, it's certainly quite
02:26busy on those roads on Sunday morning, isn't it?
02:29Absolutely. And, and it was throughout the day that people were coming across that, that
02:34finish line. Wendy, what was the atmosphere like, sort of down where you were? It seems
02:40like the event is not only bigger, it seems to take up because of the way they're staging
02:44it now because of the way that the sort of runners are staggered. It does, it's a whole
02:50day event now.
02:51Yeah, it's a very strange experience being at the finish line. I mean, gosh, it's a total
02:57privilege. But you come out of Green Park station at 8.30 in the morning, and the whole area
03:02is pretty much deserted. And you can hear noise from the finish line. And you get to the finish
03:07line and there's no one there either. The screens are starting up. And then gradually, the whole
03:14finish line area fills up, the noise gets louder, the atmosphere gets a bit more intense. And
03:22then the winners come through and you celebrate the winners. And then you start looking for
03:27perhaps your fastest friends and seeing them come through. And I made my way to the embankment,
03:36which is a mile to go. And that must have been about 2pm. So a significant amount of time
03:45for even the last few waves to have gone through after that. And we had to wait for about 20
03:54minutes to get across the road and one of the official crossings. And it's called the
03:58Disney Crossing, named after John Disney, who was one of the original founders. And you
04:03get pushed across to the centre, then you stand in the centre. And then you get pushed across
04:09to the other side as people are flowing through. And just the sheer volume of people still running.
04:16Chris Evans ran by, still running. And it was two o'clock in the afternoon. So not only was it very
04:23hot, these people seem to be still running at half decent pace as well. So it wasn't like it was people
04:30bringing up the tail end. But it's a fantastic event. And it's quite a long time since I've been
04:36down that far, as in not at the finish line. And you just see everyone enjoying themselves,
04:44people calling out names because they see names on people's bibs and people in fancy breasts,
04:51all shapes and sizes. It's just fascinating. And I think it does tell you a number of things,
04:59really, just how much running has grown over the last few years, but also how it manages
05:06to capture people from every background, every, you know, people running for different causes.
05:13And I think London Marathon epitomises that beautifully.
05:16I think Paula Radcliffe summed it up really well on the BBC broadcast. One of the elite races was
05:25going off. In fact, it would have been the men's race because the masses were following afterwards.
05:30And she just said, the sight of that starting, it just, it never gets old. And that sort of flood
05:36of people coming through, it's just, yeah, it's a wonderful sight. And of course, the day before,
05:42and this is another event, which is getting bigger and bigger, Jason, was the, even though it's called
05:47the mini marathon, this now obviously has a mass participation element to afterwards, or later on
05:54in the day. But the mini marathon has been the site of, or the start of so many top level
06:02athletics careers. So many of famous alumni have come, come through it. And that was celebrating
06:10it's a very special anniversary as well. You've covered many and many marathon. What sort of role
06:18do you think it plays in athlete development? Well, first of all, they're trying to drive up
06:23the numbers in the mini marathon as well. They've got quite ambitious plans to add, you know,
06:27many thousands more young runners to the field in that event on the Saturday. And of course,
06:32for many years, it used to be on the Sunday. And I always felt it used to get a little bit buried
06:36on the Sunday. You know, it would be in the shadow of the main, you know, full marathon.
06:42But having it on the Saturday now, it gives it its own place in the spotlight. And, you
06:48know, when it comes to the quality and the kudos of actually winning one of the races or
06:53getting on the podium or in the top 10, I mean, it's right up there alongside things like
06:58the UK intercounties, cross-country champs, you know, national cross-country champs, English
07:03schools, championships, things like that. I mean, it very much attracts all the top young
07:08runners now. And yeah, it doesn't, we don't just see future athletes and, you know, track
07:15and field Olympians in it. You know, there might be, might be good footballers and, and
07:19people like that in the races as well. I, just a quick story. I had fun on the eve of
07:25the race doing a piece around a photo that had, that was from 2013 and Alex Yee was in
07:32the photo and the winner was a guy called Jamal Lewis, who's gone on to be a footballer for
07:37Northern Ireland, Newcastle, Norwich, various other clubs. And he actually won the race.
07:43He beat Alex Yee that day and beat, beat another runner called Ben Dykstra, who was superb at
07:49the time as a runner, went on our front cover as a teenager. And he's gone on to be a triathlete
07:54as well. Not quite as successful as Alex Yee, but he's still an international triathlete.
07:59So, and also in that race, Emile Keres was buried down the field. Josh Kerr was buried down
08:04the field. I think he was in 47th or something. I mean, it's just, just amazing how the mini
08:09marathon just, just has so many future stars in the, in the races and that they're not
08:15always in the top one or two or three as Josh Kerr and Emile Keres showed that year.
08:21Yeah. And you could see being around that event on the Saturday, just indeed how much it means
08:27to these, uh, these athletes. Um, so when we turn our attention to the elite races that
08:32took place on Sunday, uh, the men's winner was, uh, Sebastian Sawi, uh, the women's, uh,
08:39winner was, uh, Tigistasefat. Let's start with the men's side of things. Wendy, Sebastian
08:45Sawi decided just to put his foot to the floor when, uh, when everyone else was going for their
08:51water bottle, which was a very brave move to make with 12 kilometers still to go. I think it was.
08:58Yeah. You always wonder, don't you, when athletes make a move like that, whether the field are going
09:02to be able to pull them back. And we've all seen it time after time where somebody's brave,
09:08they go for it. Um, and then suddenly they pay the price, um, particularly in the marathon. I mean,
09:13I think a big move like that with that far to go in the marathon is very brave indeed, particularly
09:19when I think a lot of athletes, we saw their times, their per kilometer time start to drop,
09:26um, as, as they reached around about that point, but, you know, he has a good pedigree side,
09:34doesn't he? And so I suppose you have to have a little bit of faith in, in that. And, um,
09:40but to hold on to that kind of lead for that length of time and finish as strong as he did,
09:46you just think there's a little bit more to come there, don't you?
09:50Yeah. And Jason, it adds to the, the sort of the drama of the marathon when somebody does
09:55something like that. There's so much jeopardy involved because, because of the nature of the
10:00event, it can go badly wrong very quickly. Yeah. He kind of broke one of the, one of the big rules
10:07really, didn't he? By skipping his drinks at that station. It was a crucial stage in the race as well.
10:12You know, it's exactly when you probably want to be taking on some fuel and liquid. And so to
10:17actually blast through the station, miss his drink and, uh, and then make a surge when all the other
10:22guys were having their drinks was, uh, quite, quite audacious, but it, um, yeah, it paid off
10:28for him. I think he was on another level on Sunday, you know, he burst away, got a big lead
10:33within literally just a few seconds and, uh, and then went on to extend it. And he was,
10:38yeah, he was a class apart, very impressive.
10:41Yeah. It definitely feels like there's a sort of a changing of the guards when it comes to the,
10:46the men's, uh, you know, men's global marathon running. I mean, obviously Elliot Kipchoge was,
10:52was in the field on, on Sunday and was very much in the pit. In fact, he looked like he was
10:57completely in charge until just over, uh, halfway, but he, he finished sixth. I mean,
11:04still running two Oh five. So it's not, not too shabby. Uh, but it does feel like, uh,
11:11that sort of picture is changing, Jason.
11:14Yeah, definitely. I think we, we were chatting in the media center, um, just before
11:19Saoay made his move that Kipchoge looked very good, looked very relaxed. Um, and then he was
11:24actually one of the first of the big names to just kind of blow off the back and, and
11:28get dropped. Um, so yeah, you never, you never quite know what's, what's going to happen in
11:33a marathon. And as you say, you, and then it does seem like there's a bit of a changing
11:36of the guard. Um, Kip Limo was quite a distance behind in second place, but it was still a
11:42really good debut for him. That was his first marathon. And obviously after his huge half
11:47marathon, uh, world record back in February, I mean, he's, he's still got great, uh, great,
11:52you know, very exciting ability and potential over the full marathon distance. And he, he
11:56showed that, you know, he, he has got what it takes to, uh, to win one of these big city
12:01marathons one day and maybe, maybe who knows, get close to that two hour barrier still.
12:07Yeah. And you've, uh, you wrote a piece just after the race about, uh, the top British
12:12finisher, Mohamed, Mohamed, um, and how he had a very sort of unusual journey to the, to
12:18the marathon start line. Yeah. Yeah, no, he did. He, um, he was out in Morocco, uh, in the Atlas
12:26mountains there, um, where I think, uh, lots of, well, lots of athletes have trained out there over
12:31the years. I think we associate altitude training with, you know, Ethiopia and Kenya and Font
12:36Rameau and places in the States. Um, but actually the Atlas mountains in Morocco has, has been the
12:42place where lots of good athletes have trained over the years. Hicham El-Garouge for, for instance,
12:47uh, would often base himself there with it being his home country and Mohamed, Mohamed
12:51went out there, but because he was observing Ramadan, he was fasting, uh, during the day.
12:56So he did a lot of his training, a lot, a lot of the hardest stuff, literally at 11 o'clock
13:01at night under floodlights, um, which is quite tough. Um, but he tried to mentally turn it to
13:08his advantage by basically telling himself that if he could handle that, then he would make
13:13himself mentally stronger than a lot of his rivals on race day. And yeah, it worked out
13:19for him. He's had a couple of really good London's two years on the trot now. And, um,
13:24I know he's, he's wanting to try and get in the British team for the world championships
13:27in Tokyo later on this year. So, um, so yeah, I know the race was missing Emil Keres, um, but,
13:35uh, but yeah, on, on current form this year, Mohamed is the number one guy.
13:39Yeah. And another talked about debut was Alex Yee, who you've, you mentioned Jason,
13:45uh, Olympic triathlon champion. And Wendy, you've, you've seen Alex since he was a very
13:52young, uh, competitor coming up through cross country teams and, and, and what have you.
13:57It was, uh, it was an impressive debut from him as well.
14:01Yes. As, as, um, you guys know, um, I've, I was slightly frustrated when Alex Yee, um, went
14:08off to do triathlon, although he always said that that was his, that was his sport originally,
14:14but yeah, he was part of a couple of teams, European cross country. And then he won, uh,
14:21not the 10,000 PBs and, you know, watching him run, you know, he, he looks like a world-class
14:27runner, doesn't he, you know? And I think, um, his performance last year in Paris, you know,
14:33that was down to the run, wasn't it really? And, um, his, his ability, um, and yeah, he was one of
14:40the athletes I was tracking. Of course, we were all fascinated to see what Alex could do over the
14:46marathon distance and, you know, following him on social media, you could see his training was going
14:51well. And, um, I think he stated before the, uh, event he wanted to go through in 64 and see what
14:57happened. And he was pretty much bang on that. Um, but I think as we were saying earlier,
15:03quite a number of the athletes, their per kilometer time started to go down. I think as
15:08the heat perhaps started to have a bit of an impact, um, and it's quite interesting. And I guess
15:15probably a sign of a, of a great athlete that he's already thinking about the next one.
15:21And I'm not sure he would have said that before the, before the race, but, um, he knows there's
15:28more there and, and I don't blame him for that. But, um, yeah, I, I would, I would have loved it
15:34if Alex Yee had stayed in, in track and field, but listen, he's Olympic champion at triathlon. And,
15:40um, I'm sure he, no one would want to take that away from him, but, but what a superb debut really,
15:46um, when you're used to doing multiple events and, and all at slightly shorter distances to then
15:53step up and do a marathon while keeping your other two events going as well. Um, but I'm intrigued to
16:01see what he does next actually, because I think he was quite keen to say he's going to do another
16:05marathon. Um, so let's see. Yeah. I mean, I think there's, I would imagine in his head, he feels he
16:14can do two, seven, two, eight and, um, yeah, I'm not sure when that will be. Perhaps he'll go for
16:20something like a Berlin, which is flat and fast, but, or Chicago, but, um, yeah, uh, fascinating debut.
16:29Yeah. He's got a very refreshing attitude to sort of pushing limits and discovering sort of new,
16:34uh, yeah, discovering his new limits and, uh, training techniques and things like that is,
16:39yeah, it will be very interesting. And, uh, and Wendy, what did you make of the, the women's
16:45elite race? We obviously had tickets to Sefa, uh, uh, won it and it was, uh, a women's only world,
16:51uh, world record. You know, the, the sort of the big pre pre-race hype was sort of the rematch
16:59between her and Sefa Hassan, Sefan Hassan, um, after their sort of Olympic tussle last year. And
17:06Sefa, well, in, in 2024, she was second in London. She, she was second at the Olympics and then saw her
17:14world record snatched away from her. So it felt like this was her making a bit of a statement again.
17:21Well, she, um, in, in a slightly different way to Sae, she did, um, make a real impact on the race,
17:28significantly, didn't she? You know, that group that was four or five together suddenly just broke
17:34up. Um, and I think there was probably, I'm, I'm sure when she turned into the male, there was a,
17:40a bit of a sense of relief, um, because it, it's almost, um, and also you never know with Hassan,
17:48do you? Um, and there were times in that race where I could see she looked a little bit wobbly,
17:53but she looked like that last year. And, and, um, and so you, you're sort of thinking,
17:59is she really wobbly or is she has a slightly, um, ungainly style at times, not her legs, but her
18:06arms particularly. So you're thinking, is she struggling there or is she going to come back?
18:10And so, you know, I was kind of half watching to see whether there was a sudden, um, a sudden
18:16resurgence from Hassan. But, uh, yeah, I, there was, I'm sure there was part of, um, tickets that
18:23was thinking, do I look behind me and just double check that Stefan's not suddenly turned around the
18:29corner and going to sprint the last hundred and go straight by me. But, um, yeah, there were quite a
18:36few women running on their own. I mean, uh, our own Ailish McColgan, I think ran the majority of
18:41the race on her own. Um, and I guess that's the disadvantage of it being a women's only event,
18:47isn't it? Um, I mean, it's a true run race in some ways because you've not got the advantage of
18:52having the men around you. Um, and you know, there are some very classy, uh, male athletes around that
19:01sort of time. That's sort of 2.16 or, or faster time. So you, you can have some very, uh, useful
19:08company around you. But, um, I think it is a, it's a, it was a hot day and to be out there on
19:17your own for quite a long time. Um, it's a little bit different perhaps than running a track race.
19:23Well, very different from running a track race where you kind of, you might be on your own for a
19:27little bit, but it's never going to be that long. Um, and, uh, yeah, it's, it's a bit of a dilemma
19:34because you feel sorry for a lot of the women who get stranded and say Ailish was, was one of them.
19:40But when you're standing at the finish line, as I was, and you really notice the gaps because, um,
19:48the men are coming through still at this point. Um, but you, you kind of, you're sort of almost
19:54looking for the next woman and it seems to take quite a long time, uh, for them, for them to come
20:00through. But yeah, I mean, I think, um, both the men and women's winner were that, you know, they
20:06stamped their authority on the race, didn't they? And, uh, I, I, I think that's always very impressive
20:12to see. Yeah. And Jason, Wendy mentioned Ailish McAlgan there, another high profile debut. She got the
20:22Scottish record she was after and she beat her mum's time. Um, but I don't think it was necessarily a
20:27completely smooth running experience for her, but, um, you know, again, it feels like there's more,
20:34more room for, for improvement there, but a very, a very impressive debut nonetheless.
20:41Yeah. I think when, uh, Ailish was originally going to do the London marathon a couple of years ago,
20:45she was in the absolute form of her life. You know, she was in the zone, she was breaking British
20:50records left, right and center. Um, yeah, she said she's had injury problems since, you know,
20:54she knows that she's not in quite the same shape as she was in a couple of years ago. And, um,
21:01I think she also probably took a quite pragmatic view on this year's race. She, she said that she
21:06trained, you know, sensibly, you know, kept the mileage at a sensible level because she, she didn't
21:11want to get injured again. She just wanted to get to race day and actually do the race, you know,
21:16not have to drop out beforehand and, um, you know, just get around, get that Scottish record,
21:22which must've been really pleasing, uh, beat her mum's PB, which, which, uh, obviously has family
21:28bragging rights. And, um, yeah, I thought she had a, she had a really good day out there. She,
21:33she looked like she enjoyed it. And, um, there's certainly more, more to come from her. I mean,
21:38she's, um, she's, she just looks all round, like she's got bags of, bags of potential in the
21:43marathon distance. And, you know, this is the first one that she's got out of the way and we,
21:47we can look forward to, to more now as well. I think she looks more comfortable, doesn't she?
21:53I mean, I think as a, as a runner, she looks, um, more comfortable at the longer distances now.
21:58So I don't know whether her stride length has changed or whether she's deliberately, um,
22:03just adapted herself to it or whether it's just an, an evolution as she's got a little bit older,
22:09but she looks like she's got, she looks far more comfortable running at that distance than,
22:15than I think I've ever seen or even, even on the track at 10,000. Uh, so that's, that's,
22:21as you say, Jason, I think that, that does bode well for the future, doesn't it? Really?
22:25Yeah. And the great travesty here is that we, we never saw you run a marathon at your peak,
22:30Wendy. I think the marathon came a bit too early here.
22:34Yeah. I think, um, I look back now and, and I think at my time of competing,
22:42people didn't really take up the marathon until later in their career. Um, and I think I started
22:49a marathon in Miami once and did, and I was without, I started at the back and without even trying,
22:54I was in third place at 10 miles, but I'd only, I'd been told to stop at 10 miles because that was
22:59all I was doing. Um, and that should have given me some sort of hint really that, um, I could do
23:06one, but, but I was quite young then. And by the time I got to my late twenties, I was having dreadful
23:14nerve problems and down my right leg. And it just meant that running at a sustained pace,
23:20uh, for any length of time was quite hard, which of course is what you've got to do at a marathon,
23:24isn't it really? Um, but yeah, now I'm just too old, which is, uh, a bit frustrating really. Um,
23:33I'm sure somebody would say that I'm not too old, but I am too old, I promise. So, um, but when you
23:39see, um, you know, I think there's a lot of young athletes now start running the marathon way, way
23:45early than we would have ever considered it. You do sort of think to yourself, well, maybe I should
23:50have done that, um, in my early twenties rather than leaving it so long and then not being able
23:56to do it. But anyway, nevermind. I'll never live to tell the tale. Well, this episode of the
24:03Athletics Weekly Podcast is brought to you by Embrace Leggings. Uh, Embrace Ambassador Joe Pavey
24:09wears the Dynamic Plus leggings to reduce knee pain and tight hips. And Jason recently caught up with her
24:15to hear more. You were, you sort of ran a bit smarter. Your body was maybe a bit more,
24:20a bit, a bit more, um, sturdy as well and was used to all the mileage. So you were less likely to get
24:26injured. Yeah. And I think, um, when you're younger, you can get away with a lot to a certain
24:32extent, but actually it's the other way around that if you haven't got that experience, you can end up
24:37not having that ability to listen to your body. You don't know about what training mix is logical
24:42to give you enough recovery to then be ready for the next session. And, um, it's harder to make
24:47those calls to keep the training consistent as well. And, um, I think for all athletes, it's
24:52beneficial to learn about the training and what training is correct, but also learning about your
24:59own body and being able to listen to your body and know those signals of when, right, okay, that needs
25:04to stop there. I need to, and you kind of learn and yeah. And you just kind of gain that experience.
25:11And I think like you were saying, your body does get to the point where it can cope with
25:17those higher training loads, but it does take a while. Like I say to any junior athlete,
25:21build up gradually, don't try and get all the training done in the first couple of years
25:25of your career, because you want to be there in a few years when you're ready to be at your
25:30peak performances. You want to capitalize on your body being at the best it can be and not
25:35you've burnt yourself out and not been able to have that long, enjoyable career. Cause
25:40for me, I've really enjoyed the amount of years I've been able to take part in championships.
25:45A particularly long career.
25:47Well, just, you know, I look back and think all the amazing people I met along the way,
25:50all the experiences I've had, that's what I'll take away from it. I feel really fortunate.
25:54Definitely.
25:55Yeah. You obviously still run now, you've got ambitions, maybe, uh, maybe we might see you
25:59in some masters competitions in coming years. Do you, do you find you have any niggles and
26:04problems now that you have to deal with or are you, do you, are you pretty good for your,
26:08for your age?
26:09Yeah, not too bad. I mean, I sometimes do have problems, um, with my knees and that's
26:14why I do benefit for the embrace leggings because they support the knee and keep them warm.
26:19But, um,
26:19I was going to say, tell me a bit about the embrace leggings because you, because you're
26:22using those quite a lot lately, aren't they? What do they do for your body?
26:25I've been really excited, um, to have the leggings and work with them because, um,
26:29I thought, oh, that's a really unique concept because they're leggings, but they have inbuilt
26:33support around sort of the low back, the IT bands and hips and around the knees. And you can
26:38feel that sort of level of support, but also for me, I additionally benefit from the fact that it
26:44keeps my knees warm. So I really enjoy that, but yeah, anything I can do to keep me going.
26:50Yeah. I mean, you know, I do need to sort of think things keep me going, but
26:54but generally I think also just getting out, you know, running in beautiful locations like
27:01near my home or elsewhere. It's like, it's not only good for fitness, it's good for your mental
27:06wellbeing, isn't it? And I think as I have got to the later years, you know, I've been able to even
27:12take that on board even more than I did when I was younger. You think, wow, you know, running is great
27:17and just all the people you're still in contact with and everything. But yeah, I do have little eyes
27:22on trying to get myself a bit fitter, but life just gets really busy, you know, in a good way.
27:28There's a lot of things to deal with. And then obviously things going on with the kids and
27:32things, it's juggling everything. Like so many people, everyone's busy. And I think when I'm
27:38thinking about advising people with training that have got busy lives, it is about prioritising
27:42important sessions, juggling things, finding a way and enjoying that challenge, really.
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27:53hips, aid alignment and give you confidence so you can concentrate on enjoying the great outdoors.
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28:07Well, we have a new magazine out now. A new issue of AW is on the newsstands and heading to our
28:16subscribers. And the focus of this month's edition is a certain Steve Prefontaine. We've done a special
28:24issue based around him, based on the fact that it's very nearly going to be 50 years since his
28:30untimely passing at the age of just 24. He was an athlete who specialised in breaking American records,
28:40but never quite made an impact on the global athletic scene in terms of winning anything.
28:47However, Wendy, he's one of these figures who has taken on legendary statuses, still revered,
28:54talked about. There have been films, there's a book, you know, can you provide a little bit of
29:00background as to why he's become this remarkable figure?
29:06It's interesting, isn't it? Because the 1972 Olympics was the first Olympics I got really engaged
29:13in as a young athlete. And I always remember that race because Britain's Ian Stewart snuck past
29:21Steve Prefontaine to get bronze. And obviously, Steve Prefontaine finished fourth. And that was my
29:27first kind of memory of him. And then in 84, when I was having all sorts of challenges with the whole
29:36Zola Bud thing, and I took myself off to America, and just to get away from the press. And of course,
29:43you know, then we didn't have mobile phones and the internet, so I was able to escape everything.
29:48And it was the Prefontaine meeting that saved my Olympics. And I probably had forgotten who
29:58Steve Prefontaine was, because he finished fourth in the Olympics, and I was focused on watching
30:04Ian Stewart get his bronze. And he wasn't a name that necessarily figured as a young athlete growing
30:11up in the UK. And then you go to the Prefontaine meeting in America, and you see people with pictures
30:19of him on t-shirts, and the whole meetings named after him. And you realize that there's this almost
30:27saint-like worship over Steve Prefontaine, the man, the athlete. And I think, as you said,
30:37in the magazine, Ewan, you know, that kind of slightly rock star effect that he had, the impact
30:45that he had. And people are so pleased that they maybe met him or raced against him or knew his coach
30:52your family. And over time, sort of going back to Eugene and attending the meeting,
31:04obviously no longer running in the meeting, you sort of feel like that saint-like status has carried
31:14through to the meeting now. Because it is one of the most exciting meetings. They've rebuilt the
31:21stadium, of course, for the World Championships. But it's incredible. And I often wonder, you know,
31:28what would he think now, 50 years on, at the legacy that he's kind of left behind? I mean, he was
31:36worshipped. He was a bit of a tough, front-running, barrel-chested athlete, wasn't he? And I think at
31:45the time, you know, with the moustache and the long blonde hair and everything, I think he was, yeah,
31:51he was a bit of a superstar before, really, there were many superstars in athletics, actually. And that sort
31:59of, that sort of image has stayed and that kind of aura has stayed around him all these years on. And,
32:07you know, as everybody knows, Eugene is the stomping ground of Nike and everything swoosh. And of course,
32:19Steve Prefontaine was a Nike athlete and Nike have embraced the meeting. And yeah, it's a very
32:28interesting and unusual legacy, really, I think, given that he didn't, he didn't win any global
32:35medals. Well, exactly. And that's part of the, the piece in the, in the magazine is just to try and
32:42uncover just why, you know, his name still rings around, you know, nearly 50 years on from, from when
32:51he died. And, and Jason, Wendy touched on it there. He, he was Nike's first superstar sponsored athlete.
32:59This is way before Michael Jordan, this way before Andre Agassi, way before any of these huge names,
33:05Tiger Woods, that the Nike have helped launch. It's hard to imagine now, for example, a top level
33:13athlete traveling around with, you know, Nike shoes in the boot of their car to, to give out to,
33:21to students or, or young athletes coming up, but that's, that's what he did. He helped to create the
33:27brand. Yeah. He was a trailblazer in many ways. I mean, I have, I have to admit that for many years,
33:34I didn't quite get the whole Prefontaine thing, you know, being British and, and now when the 72 games
33:40was on, I was only three years old. So it was a little bit, a little bit, uh, before my time.
33:45Um, but I think about 10, 10 or 10 or 12, 15 years ago, I made a concerted effort to watch the
33:50Prefontaine films. Um, and then that gave me a flavor as to his story and what he was all about.
33:58Um, and I started to get it. Um, and then we went to, uh, the world champs in 2022, uh, in Eugene and,
34:08uh, myself and yourself, you, and we visited, um, the place where, where he died and, and we,
34:15you know, we paid our own little bit of homage and, uh, and then we had a, a jog around, uh,
34:20around Pre's trail. And, um, yeah, I, I finally started to get it completely at that stage. Uh,
34:28you know, I could see how and why he was, you know, so revered and admired. Um, you know,
34:34people had come to the place where he died from, from the other side of the world and
34:38they'd, they'd left shoes and singlets and, you know, just, just little, little things to commemorate
34:44him. And, uh, yeah, it's, it's, so you can kind of see, see why the, um, why his personality is,
34:51is just stood the test of time, you know, half a century now. And, uh, you know, one of,
34:57one of my favorite, um, the favorite things about working at AW is I, I always get to have a sneak
35:02preview of the latest magazine, get to, uh, get to proofread all the pages before all the readers
35:07are able to get their hands on it. And the, the feature that, that, uh, you've put together for
35:12this latest issue, which is just coming out is really good, really in depth, goes over quite a
35:17number of pages. And, uh, yeah, I think anyone who's into Steve Prefontaine, it's a, it's a must read
35:24really. They'll have to get their hands on it. Yeah. Well, and, and that magazine is, is out now to,
35:31to buy. Um, and now it's time to hear from our next guest, uh, Neil Gourley. I caught up with him,
35:39uh, to discuss his experiences as a challenger at the Grand Slam track meeting in Kingston,
35:44plus his indoor season, which brought that world indoor silver medal.
35:49It was in terms of how much you've crammed into the year already. I mean, with national records,
35:55indoor championships, and then Grand Slam track, how's, how's it sort of
35:59been for you? And have you had a chance to sort of digest it all?
36:04Yeah. The plan was always to have a, a kind of heavy indoor season. I kind of maybe underestimated
36:09just how much racing I'd be doing, but, uh, it was always the plan where, you know, unless you're
36:15being a late world champs out in Tokyo, it was, it was the case where I was thinking, right,
36:21let's have a heavy indoor season and really properly peak for this and then kind of reset and,
36:26and rebuild for, for the outdoor champs. So we don't peak too soon and in that respect as well.
36:31So yeah, um, always the plan, uh, but it has taken its toll. So I've taken a bit of downtime
36:37since that first, that, uh, Grand Slam meet in Kingston, which was much needed, but, uh, yeah,
36:42hectic, but, but really good fun the whole way.
36:45Yeah. What was the overall feeling sort of after Kingston? Is it just sort of general fatigue or is
36:49it, you know, mental tiredness? Is it the whole, the whole package together kind of thing?
36:55Yeah, it's, it's the whole package, I suppose, that I was finding, um, going into Kingston,
37:01and this had just been coming off world indoors a little bit, that there were just a few niggling
37:05things that I just need to get through this week kind of thing. As long as I get through this week,
37:10I know I'll be fine. Um, there were some things when my body was just kind of given out on me a
37:15little bit, but just things that I knew that I'd be able to race through. And then by next week,
37:21get a few days off my feet and be totally fine. Um, completely, it's improper injury struggle. So,
37:27um, feels a totally different thing to sort of be complaining about those little things rather than,
37:32than bigger deal.
37:33Yeah. Well, I was, I was going to ask, you know, does the, does what you had to go through
37:37last year? Does it sort of still play on your mind when I sort of, if a niggle starts to crop up,
37:42or do you just now know your body so much better?
37:47I'm still very much aware of it. It's more in the planning of the training that I'm doing that I
37:52think that, um, the real difference is it's not so much on the day to day kind of listening to my
37:57body, that kind of thing. It's more just, you know, what's the approach here? What's the long-term
38:02approach? How do we set up the training? I think it's been a big factor this year.
38:06The other thing that's allowed is just, I've been just enjoying it so much more this year.
38:10I think when you have a kind of completely disturbed, unsettled, um, yeah, just completely
38:16not to plan you like it, like it was last year, particularly in the winter, it just gives you
38:20a new kind of appreciation for when things are healthy and when things are going well,
38:25it's just the sport really is enjoyable and you kind of forget that sometimes when it's more of a
38:30struggle. Uh, but yeah, just been really enjoying the whole season, every kind of race I did this
38:36year, I felt like it got better and I just, yeah, was, it was enjoying it the whole time,
38:40really just enjoying my racing.
38:41Well, it was, it was noticeable sort of just between the European indoors and the world's just
38:48sort of how much you kind of change your approach a bit as well. Was that, was that very much like a
38:53conscious thing or, or was, you know, it felt like you were having spoken to you sort of in,
38:59in Apple doing, it felt like you were racing much more on your terms at the world indoors, if that's,
39:04if that's the right sort of way to put it.
39:06Yeah, definitely true. It was a, it was a conscious decision I made. It's actually only,
39:12it was maybe about a week out from even competing in the world indoors. I was sort of sitting down
39:16with my brother and talking about something completely different. Um, and then for some
39:21reason racing just sort of crossed my mind. I thought next time I'm racing on an indoor track
39:29against, um, Jakob in particular, um, I'm going to make sure I go to the back and follow him. I just
39:36sort of had this weird realization. Like why, why do I keep going towards the front and waiting for
39:41him to move and looking over my shoulder and kind of doing what everybody else is doing, which is just
39:46kind of waiting for him to be the aggressor. Why would I do that when I can just follow him anyway
39:51and follow that momentum? So it's kind of, I sort of alluded to it a bit, um, before, but it's just,
39:57it was a change of approach that I just felt would allow me to have more momentum when the race really
40:02kicked off at world indoors. And I felt much better doing so. It meant I was caught up less
40:07in the sort of carnage when people are reacting to a big move. And so it was a big learning point
40:13from European indoors. Um, I think outdoors, it's different. You can, you can get away with
40:18maybe making a mistake or having time to react, but indoors, you don't kind of have that luxury.
40:23Yeah. So I felt that if I was reacting or if I was moving as he was moving, I would just be in a much
40:28better position, um, to close well. And that was the case and just not get involved in the carnage
40:34that I did, uh, in Apple during that I was really frustrated about. Yeah. Well, Apple doing as well,
40:39I think was, it was a tricky track to negotiate as well. Wasn't it though? There was, there was,
40:44there were so few chances, you know, to get any ground back that you'd lost or to make that move or to,
40:51yeah, it was a, it was a difficult, difficult challenge that one.
40:55Yeah. It was a steep bank. And I think I said it before, which is myself as an athlete,
41:00a little bit that it reminded me of the Kelvin hall, uh, in Glasgow, which is the really steep banks.
41:05And it felt like you're running sideways as you came around the bend. It reminded me a little bit
41:09of that. Um, but track sort of configuration aside, I mean, I just, yeah, I felt it gave me a better
41:19chance that that, that track in Apple doing was tricky, but it was more a tactical element that just,
41:24I had been maybe naive to, um, in, in thinking that I would just get a clean run, uh, as soon as
41:32the race kicked off. And the factor that you sometimes forget is, is what other people will do,
41:39uh, when, when a big move like that happens and I just got caught up in some things that could have
41:44happened on any old track, to be honest with you. But, uh, yeah, I suppose that one maybe did put
41:49people more off balance than normal. Yeah. Is it the old adage of sort of running your own race?
41:55I mean, I know that's so easy for me to say, I'm not the one that is trying to race one of the,
42:01you know, the best middle distance runners there's ever been kind of thing, but does that, you know,
42:06is that what it boils down to? To some extent? Yeah. To some extent, it's also like, um,
42:14um, more about being efficient. So the, the reason that, that Jakob likes to go to the back end doors
42:22and he likes to move all at once is because you're, you're not spending too much time on
42:26the outside lanes, kind of jostling for position and get involved into a lot of the nonsense that
42:31happens kind of mid race in a 1500 meters. It's a really, you know, it's, it's something that he's
42:36done for a while and he's, he's good at, but, um, it's less so running your own race. I, I,
42:44I think to some extent you, you always have to take into account what other people are doing,
42:49particularly in an indoor 1500 meters. It's very rare. You get to run your completely own race,
42:54um, unless you do take it out from the front, from the start, or you do kind of something more
42:58like I was doing, which was going to the back and, um, yeah, moving when it seemed right to move,
43:04um, when it was obvious to move, um, rather than just being reactive. Um, I suppose in that sense.
43:10Yeah. Yeah. How much of the sort of the mental side of things have you, if you worked on, I mean,
43:16I know like previously when we've spoken, uh, before you were, you know, you're quite a big
43:21golf fan. And I wondered if sort of seeing something like what Rory McIlroy did at the weekend,
43:26for example, and the sort of the, the, the demons or the, that sort of, it's, it's another individual
43:32sport where you have to talk to yourself a lot. Um, I was wondering if you, how much you work on
43:37that side of things and if you see parallels with, with other sports. Yeah, I was quite nervous
43:42watching Rory at the weekend. Gosh, he made it interesting, didn't he? When it, for all the world
43:48looked like it was going to be simple, but, um, I mean, yeah, in terms of the mental approach, I think
43:55in terms of competition, it's always been something I've never struggled with is the wrong word,
44:03but I've never had a huge issue. I really like competing. Like the race day is what I do it for.
44:08And, um, the competitive side of things is way more interesting to me than the training where I
44:14have made some changes. I'd say on the mental side of things is that I did start working with a sports
44:19psychologist, psychologist last year has been really helpful. So he, um, noticed that in my approach,
44:27um, on the calendar, one event, one, whatever it is, you sort of focus on it for months, six months,
44:34three months, kind of pass you by and you're never really, um, yeah, thinking about any one particular
44:40day. It's more about summer or whatever it is and try to change the approach to look, let's take this,
44:45let's try whatever date that is on the calendar. And it, um, was a massive shift for me, even though
44:51it seems quite obvious. And it's something that just, for some reason, I always thought like,
44:55if I'm really focused on one day, then that, that'll have a better outcome, but do to get yourself
45:00better today. Um, and that approach, yeah, paid off to let go of what everyone else around me was doing,
45:07but also even now just taking it greater outcomes that way, just by multiplying and stacking the days
45:15that went well rather than. Do you feel different this year?
45:22I feel been, uh, just purely because of the amount of training I've got in. Um,
45:29I feel like I'm enjoying it and physically my body's able to cope with it. Um, which it wasn't
45:34this time last year. So I am. Yeah. Yeah. And, and how much momentum do you feel these past few
45:40weeks sort of gives you towards, you know, obviously with it being that sort of longer
45:46season? So when will you start to sort of build back up towards racing and things again?
45:51Um, I'll start, you know, putting in the hard work probably next week. I've still been kind of
45:56running easy. That's something I felt would happen last year was that I was just because of how rushed
46:02things were. Um, and that was, you know, it was for good reason. We, we, we, we felt that we were
46:08behind in terms of sharpness. We felt quite a bit, um, to get to British champs ready to get to that
46:14period of time ready, um, to focus on more of the strength based kind of aerobic stuff a bit longer,
46:21um, to make that's one of the reasons why I had such a kind of long indoor season was that I'd get an
46:26opportunity to, to then reset. The idea is not really to be racing too much until June, probably.
46:32Um, I'll, uh, but, but, but definitely hoping to have my best races in August and September and just
46:39being comfortable with to, um, and not getting carried away with the amount of races that will
46:44be going on and the amount of people that will be running fast. Um, just, just, just to keep plugging
46:48away and making sure that I'm ready. And what was the, um, what was the Grand Slam track experience
46:54like? Great. I, I just loved the whole format, to be honest. That was the biggest thing for me
47:02as opposed to, you know, there's a more pacemaker, you know, time trial-esque. Um,
47:07I just think it's much better to watch. Um, I went back and watched the meet and just, yeah,
47:12had a good time watching like the, even some burn up for the last lap. Um, that kind of thing.
47:16I think the 815 group in particular was really cool. You got people, you got some surprises
47:23on, on both sides, I thought, and, uh, predictable and everybody's kind of getting in line behind,
47:29behind a pacemaker as usual. But yeah, just love that format. Love being a part of it and
47:34then getting to race some of the best in the world, um, in that setting. It just really was,
47:40yeah, everything I'd kind of hoped it'd be, uh, from a competitive standpoint and loved it.
47:45How refreshing was it to, uh, compete and, or just, just that difference? Does that,
47:52like you were saying earlier about the sort of the mental side of things to, to be trying
47:55something new to be doing something that's, that's just a little bit off the, the norm?
48:01It's great. Cause I've been doing this a long time and it feels like almost the same sort of thing
48:06every year, as much as, you know, things can be in different locations. It, uh, yeah, it, I've,
48:14I've been doing this quite a long time and I haven't had a format like anything like it yet.
48:18So, um, definitely refreshing, definitely something that I want to be involved in again
48:22this year. And, um, yeah, I, I hope, um, that this picks up some momentum because I think it was
48:32exciting just, um, you know, from the bits that I watched and I hope that sort of translates.
48:38Uh, it feels like the production value was good and I'm sure they'll improve on certain things,
48:42but, um, yeah, just, just even watching it back myself, I had more, more fun watching that than,
48:48than I have other sort of regular season meet, regular season sort of athletics meets,
48:54um, in recent memory anyway.
48:58Thanks to Neil for his time, um, which gives us a chance to, uh, you know, talk about the,
49:04that first Grand Slam track meeting, um, at the time of recording, the second one is just about to,
49:10uh, to start. But Wendy, having seen that, that first, uh, meeting, what were your first impressions
49:16of it given the hype and all the talk that had been around it?
49:20Well, I think that, you know, the, um, challenge that everybody saw on screen really was the fact
49:27that the crowds in, in Jamaica were quite small. Um, and I think, you know, it'll be interesting to see
49:36what the crowds are like in Miami this coming weekend. Um, it's a smaller stadium, um, and probably,
49:43you know, more people that probably, because Florida is a pretty big state, you know, people
49:48will perhaps travel to see some of the superstars of the sport they love. Um, so then it should,
49:54it will be interesting to see what the crowds are like, um, this weekend. Having said all of that,
50:00there was some fascinating, uh, events, fascinating races, fascinating outcomes. Actually, there were
50:08some outcomes that you sort of knew were going to happen. Um, and then there were outcomes that you,
50:13you thought, wow, okay, that's interesting. Um, and I chatted to Marco Orop, who's probably
50:20one of the, the more interesting performances because of his win in the 815 double and, and beating some
50:32of the world's best over 1500. And I said, how, how, you know, how, how did it feel? And he said,
50:38oh, it's fantastic. He said, you know, we're, we're treated so well. I really enjoyed it. It gave,
50:44it's given me a chance to try an event that I think eventually I want to move up to. Um,
50:52and I think there's, there's going to be some quite interesting stories when we get to the
50:58end of the four events or the four, four weekends of competition. And I think as well,
51:06we all have to remember that Michael Johnson is heading up all of this and what a tough athlete
51:11he was. And we all know what it takes to be at the top of your sport. You've got to be pretty
51:17resilient. You've got to, um, have perseverance and you've got to make changes where they need to
51:25be made to bring out the best in yourself. And, and I think that's what Michael Johnson will do.
51:31And he and his team, I'm sure we'll look at things that perhaps didn't work as well. It's a new
51:36concept. So, um, they're not going to get it a hundred percent right. First time out. Uh,
51:44they know, we know they've got long-term plans. So I think, you know, they, I think that, uh,
51:49Michael Johnson himself put something out on X to say, you know, come on, everyone, tell me what you
51:54think. And, um, you know, I think that there are some really good bits, some of which I've mentioned
52:02and some bits that perhaps need a bit of work and gaps between events and, and so on. So, um,
52:11I think overall we could perhaps judge it far better in a couple of months time when,
52:17when all four have taken place. Um, and then I suspect fairly quickly they'll announce another
52:25venue, perhaps in Europe or, or Asia, I don't know, hopefully Europe and, um, and see what the next
52:33steps are. You know, what do they change? Do they continue with three days? Do they maybe cut it down
52:39to two? Um, yeah, I think it's going to be fascinating to see the outcome, but I think what's been
52:47wonderful about it actually, um, is that we're talking about it now. I think the world of track
52:55and field to talk, it's built a bit more of an awareness within people who are interested in the
52:59sport or third sport. They, they may have caught it on, on, um, people channels that are following it.
53:07So, um, he's still out, but I think Kingston was just the very first step on. And like I say,
53:15I suspect there's more to come from the three remaining more to come, I think in the future.
53:20And it's, it's, it's great that people are created a bit of noise and it feels like Diamond League,
53:29you know, are engaging a little bit more, I think generally through social media, through
53:35a lot more engagement from Diamond League. So maybe overall it's, it's different ways.
53:40Yeah. And, and Jason, at the, at the very least athletics at a time in the year,
53:46when track and field tends to be quieter, very good job of, um, you know, creating discussion,
53:52creating a bit of attention.
53:54Yeah, definitely. The first fixture being in April. I mean, that's really early, you know,
53:58not many, not many, uh, serious athletes would open their seats. I mean, Wendy gave a really good summary
54:03there of the whole thing. Um, you know, she, she, she touched on many points, probably, probably the
54:08many talks, you know, I mean, all the prize money they had was, uh, was mouthwatering, um,
54:14sustain that, you know, and keep that level of prize money up, uh, to keep him, you know,
54:18to keep, uh, attracting the best athlete goods for Grand Slam track so far, you know, superb,
54:23you know, totally world-class. I mean, probably a rather silly way to describe it is, is I live next
54:30corner of in the Southwest corner of the UK. But if I was given a hundred thousand to win races,
54:35then I'd like to think that I could probably attract a few of them to compete on my local,
54:39but you know what I mean? The money is, the money is drawing the athletes to this event.
54:42They can sustain that. And if they can sustain it, um, because it's a lot of money, they're
54:47expensive and they're not, they're certainly not making it up in, in ticket sales so far,
54:51if the Jamaican meeting is anything. Um, I, I really enjoyed watching it on, uh, on the telly,
54:57uh, from, from the UK for the, we're speaking on the eve of the Miami meet as well. I've got no
55:02doubt. I'll enjoy that one as well. You know, it's great athletics. So yeah, it's, uh, it's so
55:07far so good and, uh, long make.
55:09We just have time to tell you about a new era for AW as well. Um, we have a new website,
55:16new subscriptions and a new experience for you to be able to keep up to date with the sport more.
55:22Thank you, Wendy and Jason, for joining me. We'll be back next month from in the meantime,
55:26the main issue of AW is out now available via athleticsweekly.com and select the AW podcast
55:33on your usual podcast platform. See you next time.