At today's House Appropriations Committee hearing, Rep. Mark Pocan (D-WI) questioned Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent.
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00:00education. Thank you very much. The chair now recognizes the gentleman from Wisconsin, Mr.
00:03Pocan, for five minutes. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And thank you, Mr. Secretary, for being with us.
00:09My main concern is, I think, what people are looking at the economy. You know,
00:14the first 100 days, lowest stock market since Richard Nixon, not usually a measure people
00:19are shooting for. On tariffs, the fact that last year we had an effective rate about 2.5 percent.
00:25I think the Yale Budget Lab, and I believe you went to Yale, has said that effective rate is
00:29closer to 28 percent, the highest since 1901. I know some of that's changed because the tariffs are
00:35on again, off again, some on again, some off again. Somewhat chaotic, I believe, as your term is, what,
00:42crazy Ivan style. I compare them to how a monkey throws dung. You're not exactly sure where they're
00:49going to land. And that's the concern I have as a small business owner. And I know Ms. Lusenkamp-Perez
00:54is as well, you know, I've got small businesses really worried. You made a comment about while
01:02cargo volumes have dropped 60 percent, you see this as a temporary detox. But for a small business
01:07that's getting by day to day, that's much bigger. You talked about Main Street. We want to finally
01:14focus on Main Street, not Wall Street. I think you were at a global investor conference in Beverly Hills
01:19yesterday. That's the cocktail party where you mentioned the crazy Ivan theory. And before that,
01:25you were at a JPMorgan Chase World Bank investor, private investor summit. All those things are not
01:31Main Street, right? Main Street is an auto body repair, a specialty printer. So my concern is on
01:37the tariffs. Who pays tariffs, Mr. Secretary?
01:40No, no, no. Answer the questions I asked, please. I only have five minutes. Who pays tariffs?
01:50Sorry? Well, there's- Who pays tariffs?
01:52Sorry. Mr. Secretary, please. Excuse me.
01:54The question is very simply, who pays tariffs, Mr. Chairman? I'd like him to answer that question.
01:58Well, Congressman, if the exporters dislike tariffs so much, why wouldn't they, if I think
02:14what you're trying to get me to say- Did you remember the question? I'm not sure you did.
02:16Who pays tariffs?
02:19It's a very complicated question.
02:21Reclaiming my time. People pay tariffs, right? I'm reclaiming my time, Mr. Secretary. Reclaiming
02:27my time, Mr. Secretary. Reclaiming my time. You clearly aren't going to answer. I'm not going
02:33to waste my time having you go, uh, uh, uh, uh. Mr. Secretary, reclaim- Mr. Chairman, I asked
02:38reclaiming my time. Mr. Chairman. And I asked to reclaim my time. Did I not? No, I said reclaiming
02:49my time, because he's clearly not answering it. So, yeah. So, as a small business owner,
02:56and unfortunately, I'd like that time back since you failed to recognize me for 30 seconds.
03:01So, I just recently, from one of my suppliers, got the tariff surcharge on things. And in addition
03:06to the tariff surcharge, guess what else got raised? American-made walnut plaques. That has
03:12nothing to do with tariffs, but companies take advantage and do that. So, right now, we are
03:16getting screwed right and left because of the indiscriminate use of tariffs. That's the reality
03:22for Main Street. And you go off to Beverly Hills for private investor conferences and talk about
03:27crazy Ivan theories. Answer that. What is the crazy Ivan theory of tariffs that you mentioned at the,
03:33the, the summit? Uh, well, first of all, sir, I, I've had meetings with more than 50 small lenders.
03:39So, the, uh, I, I want to clarify that. I would also say that in game theory, strategic uncertainty,
03:47of which the, uh, you seem to like the name crazy Ivan. Well, it's your words, correct? Didn't you
03:53use crazy Ivan? Well, you've used it five times. And the, I am saying the strategic uncertainty is
04:01part of negotiations. The, should we say, oh, here's what we'll accept. Please take this. Okay. I've got
04:07your answer. Thank you. I'm going to reclaim my time again. So, for a small business, we don't have
04:12that luxury, right? When the ports are empty in California, uh, and we can't get goods and people
04:18are stocking up for Christmas goods. Crazy Ivan is great for, please don't take this offense, really
04:23rich people like you. But for people like me, it's not, right? That's what makes small businesses fail.
04:29That's what makes people lose their jobs. That's what makes the stock market tank. So, I'll ask one more
04:34time who pays tariffs. Sir, the history would show that it is a complicated mix of who pays the
04:43tariffs over various times. So, that's exactly the problem. If you're answering, you are a very
04:48educated person. You have a very impressive bio. Cannot answer the question who pays tariffs because you
04:52won't answer that. And you say it's a complicated issue. It's not complicated. Consumers pay Trump's
04:58tariff tax. That's the reality. And, uh, I'll yield back, Mr. Chairman. But I do think next time,
05:04if I asked to yield back, I would appreciate being having my time yield back.
05:08Chair now recognizes the gentle lady from