Military officials testify before the House Armed Services Committee about drones.
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00:00I call to order. We'll begin our efforts by opening remarks from the chair and the ranking
00:10member. In the interest of time, in the interest of getting to the testimony from our witnesses
00:15and questions, I'm going to dispense with my opening remarks, have them entered into the
00:20record. And with that, I yield to Mr. Courtney. Great. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'm going to do
00:24likewise. I'm going to do likewise. But again, just for the record, I just want to note that
00:31I'm just sort of pinch hitting here today for Congressman Norcross, who's on the mend from
00:36his setback. He is watching. He texted me this morning to say that he's following this on streaming
00:42TV and has read all the materials. And this is, I think, on day one, going to be ready to go in
00:51terms of picking up where he left off. And again, I want to just thank the witnesses for
00:54being here. And with that, I'll yield back. Very good. Well, thanks, Joe. And Don, if you're
00:59watching, we'll hope you get better soon. And we promise that we will carry on in your stead.
01:05So with that, let's go ahead and begin with Director Beck and his testimony. Director Beck,
01:12all yours. Thank you, sir. Chairman Whitman,
01:16Ranked Member Courtney, and we send our best wishes for a speedy recovery to Ranked Member
01:22Norcross. Members of the subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to speak to the committee
01:27today and for all Congress has done to put DIU in a position to help make a difference.
01:32At DIU, we're focused on working with our teammates across the department to deliver the very best
01:36commercially derived technology with the focus, speed, and scale needed to deter major conflict
01:41or when it forced to fight. Nowhere is this imperative clearer than in the case of increasing
01:45the agile, lethal, and autonomous unmanned systems. In Ukraine this past December, I had the opportunity
01:51to see firsthand the eye-watering pace of change in UAS and counter-UAS technologies and the tactics,
01:57techniques, and procedures employed at the front line in an underground unit spread throughout
02:00Kyiv, all evolving constantly in a life-and-death struggle of innovation and counter-innovation.
02:05The resulting demand is supported by an incredibly dynamic ecosystem of hardware and software
02:10providers who are rising and competing to meet the challenge. DIU is embedded with the securities
02:15assistance group Ukraine to help capture these lessons for both offense and defense and then
02:19apply them to our own critical needs globally. But we must do far more. The required pace of change
02:25and scale is something the commercial tech sector that I come from, fueled by constant and fiercely
02:30competitive updates, would find daunting. For the government's traditional approach to defense,
02:34budgeting, procurement, testing, and fielding, it is simply unattainable. On offense, we must take
02:39advantage of the best emerging tech to put our joint force in a position to defeat our adversaries and to
02:43overcome their rapidly evolving counter-UAS capabilities. On defense, we must meet the
02:48exponentially growing challenge from ever more capable drone attacks and stop being forced to
02:53shoot down drones that cost a few hundred dollars with multi-million dollar weapons that are hard to
02:57produce and even harder to replenish. We must do this now and we must do this at scale. This is what
03:02DIU is focused on helping all of us to execute. First, in partnership with the services, we're helping put
03:08concrete UAS capabilities in place where warfighters need it most. In just one example,
03:13we partnered with the Army on company-level small UAS using the agile funding that Congress has
03:18authorized to enable them to prototype and actually deploy this capability in just six months.
03:23We're now working with the Army to accelerate in fiscal year 25 while they work to ensure scaling in
03:28future years. Together, we're bridging the valley of death and delivering warfighter impact and also
03:34delivering a successful reference case for private sector investment. Second, DIU has leveraged its
03:39commercial relationships and its commercial solutions opening process to extend critical enabling
03:44command and control, automatic target recognition, and collaborative autonomy capabilities as well as
03:49the ability to update them constantly as the technology and needs evolve. Third, DIU is working to catalyze
03:56the defense industrial base through the Blue UAS initiative. Blue UAS provides a continuous approach to
04:01rapidly prototyping and scaling capable and secure commercially derived UAS tech for DOD without
04:07Chinese parts or Chinese money. To meet the need for dramatically greater scale, DIU is now overhauling
04:13Blue UAS from the ground up to rapidly vet a much broader set of UAS platforms and components at speed
04:19and year-round. Finally, DIU is working to help our commercial partners scale to meet the department's
04:24growing demand. Earlier this month, DIU announced the Blue Manufacturing Initiative, which pairs defense tech
04:30hardware and software companies with the very best advanced manufacturing providers right here in the
04:34United States to help enable the scale we need. I'm happy to discuss this and our Blue UAS revamp more
04:40during questions. Turning to defense, DIU's primary role is again to work with teammates across the
04:45department to put advanced counter-UAS capability into the field fast. DIU is also driving replicator 2, a whole of
04:51department and interagency effort to improve counter-small UAS protection for critical assets largely centered on the
04:57homeland. Across all counter-UAS efforts, DIU's focused on leveraging the best commercially derived
05:03technology to accelerate our warfighters ability to sense, decide, and act under incredible complexity
05:09from combat environments overseas to population centers here at home. For example, we're working with
05:16NORTHCOM and the services to defend homeland military sites and installations, including with low-cost
05:21sensing, fly-away kits, and low collateral solutions for site defense. In conclusion, the DOD team is
05:28already addressing the rapidly transforming arena of unmanned and counter-unmanned technologies and the
05:34enormous challenges and opportunities it presents that require us to bring the very best American
05:38innovation to bear. DIU's at the heart of these efforts with our partners across the department, many of
05:43who are sitting with me today, but we need to be doing much, much more. We must put capability in place now.
05:49We must dramatically improve our capacity and speed to update unmanned and counter-unmanned technologies. We must build the
05:55muscle to do so in greater and greater scale. To do this, we need your support to ensure sufficient authorities and
06:02resources are in place to help develop solutions and scale up production capacity. We can't take tenuous or incremental steps
06:08here. We need to take bold leaps, and we need your help to do so. We'll also need your help in changing our collective
06:15culture surrounding risk. We must be willing to take the right kinds of risks today to avoid taking unacceptable risk, risk to
06:22mission, risk to force, and strategic risk for our nation due to our inability to meet the threat because we move too slowly.
06:29Thank you. I look forward to your questions.
06:31Director Beck, thank you. Very sage advice. We will now go to Lieutenant General Eric Austin, United States Marine Corps. Lieutenant General Austin, the floor is yours.
06:39Good morning, Chairman Whitman, Representative Courtney, distinguished members of this subcommittee. I'd like to echo Mr. Beck's well wishes to Representative Norcross for a speedy recovery.
06:51Thank you for the opportunity to testify today. I'm honored to represent your Marine Corps, and I look forward to discussing our efforts to address the growing threats and opportunities posed by small unmanned aerial systems.
07:01The Marine Corps continues to responsibly and necessarily modernize our force in the context of a dynamic and rapidly changing character of warfare aligned with our strategic guidance and in concert with our sister services.
07:13Guided by our Commandant's priorities, we're balancing our role as a nation's force in readiness with our aggressive effort to modernize, which certainly includes integration of small unmanned aerial systems and integration of systems to counter threat unmanned aerial systems.
07:26Our mission is clear, to equip Marines with the tools to dominate in a contested environment while providing active and passive capabilities, necessary training and other solutions to protect them from an increasingly complex and capable threat.
07:40Through a rigorous campaign of learning informed by lessons from current conflicts, we're adapting to a battlefield, in many cases redefined by small UAS.
07:47The Marine Corps is fielding unmanned aerial systems like the Skydio X2D, the Skyraider R80 Delta, the Stalker at the battalion level and below.
07:56We're experimenting with low-cost, tradable drones using first-person view guidance methods to provide additional lethality organic to the Marine Air Ground Task Force.
08:05To this point, just this year, in response to the observed evolution of armed FPV drone technology and tactics today on the battlefield, we established the Marine Corps Attack Drone Team.
08:15And this team is tasked to rapidly integrate lessons from modern combat, refined service level requirements, and to train our Marines through a competition in-arms program to increase and inform our organic lethality.
08:27Just last Friday, they completed their first test firing of a first-person view drone armed with a high-explosive charge on a Quantico range complex.
08:36It's exciting, and this construct is really working.
08:39Though we've fielded hundreds of small UAS and related capabilities, we have work to do.
08:43We must pursue faster and cheaper solutions.
08:46We're also fielding a portfolio of force protection capabilities to counter the UAS threat.
08:52We fielded the first of our Marine Air Defense Integrated System, or MADIS, systems to three Marine Expeditionary Force, and a prototype light variant of the same capability to all three of our Marine Expeditionary Forces.
09:05The latter is principally designed to support our Marine Expeditionary Units.
09:09These capabilities tie into our command and control systems and can detect and defeat small UAS and other threats via both non-kinetic and kinetic means.
09:17The third Marine Littoral Regiment today is campaigning forward in Balakatan and exercising the MADIS system as we sit here today.
09:27This fiscal year, we will also field a prototype counter UAS capability to protect dismounted Marines.
09:32This initiative will put man portable solutions into Marines' hands at the tactical edge.
09:37We are feverishly working and believe this will be a model for fielding and iterative improvement.
09:42We've developed an installation counter UAS system to detect and defeat low-altitude UAS threats and protect our bases and stations.
09:49We've fielded initial installations counter UAS equipment sets and will incrementally expand this critical capability to protect 34 sites starting this fiscal year.
09:57We've also identified a relocatable fixed-site solution that we're integrating into our formations as part of our portfolio approach to counter small UAS.
10:07Despite these successes, challenges loom large, the relentless pace of technological change, and the adversary innovation demands we accelerate.
10:14We must go faster, we must rapidly learn, iterate, improve, adapt, and modernize.
10:19We must continue modernizing how we modernize the Marine Corps.
10:23And to that end, beyond strictly material solutions, we've established a mechanism to increase the velocity of our acquisition processes for key capabilities,
10:31the Marine Corps Fusion Center, which is located in Quantico, Virginia.
10:35It's designed to drive necessary and healthy cross-functional approach that combines experts from our science and technology requirements and acquisition teams
10:42to collapse the timeline from concept to fielded capability, combined with the ability to work at a high security construct.
10:50In conclusion, ladies and gentlemen, this is a team sport, and we all must move faster.
10:55To this end, we're collaborating closely with the Defense Innovation Unit, the Joint Counter Small UAS Aircraft Systems Office,
11:01and our other sister services, certainly to include the Army.
11:03Your continued support and advocacy are valued and appreciated and central to our success.
11:08Thank you for this opportunity. I look forward to your questions.
11:11Lieutenant General Austin, thank you so much. We appreciate it.
11:14Now we will go to Lieutenant General Robert Collins, United States Army.
11:17Chairman Whitman, Congressman Courtney, and I'd also give a shout-out to our ranking member.
11:23Our thoughts and prayers are with you for a rapid recovery.
11:27And to members of the Hask Subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to come out and to discuss our unmanned aerial system
11:36and counter small UAS modernization efforts, and I would say also our collaboration across this team of experts that I'm joined here.
11:44I would say first and foremost, we fully acknowledge the threat and the proliferation of these systems, both abroad and at home.
11:54And we collectively as a team are acting with urgency, we are generating momentum, and we are aggressively pressing ahead.
12:02We have observed these activities, as mentioned, from Ukraine to the Middle East and also here in the homeland.
12:09We have lessons learned and taking those, making them applied as we learn about increasing speeds, altitudes, stealth, how they operate in contested environments, distance, all of those things that we need to take immediate action.
12:27And I would say in one particular instance here in the homeland, for example, at Picatinny, when we had that incident on the 12th of December,
12:36we were able to take immediate action within about a 48-hour period.
12:40We were able to put kit on the ground to be able to put that in place to take action and protect that critical infrastructure.
12:48I would say first on the how, we certainly are adapting the how of how we more quickly iterate, how we scale, the speed, and how we outpace our threat and we insert emerging technologies.
13:01A couple areas that we're looking at is changing our buying models.
13:05And I would say we're doing that through adopting commercial off-the-shelf technologies, working through agile funding to give us additional flexibility, one.
13:15Two, increasing our modularity and openness of how we do these particular areas as we attract and desire to attract some of the non-traditionals.
13:24Increasing the competition as we do these iterative and tranche buys to make sure that we get the best of breed of capability.
13:32Focusing on software-centric and autonomous-capable systems and also bending the cost curve as we scale up and make sure we're pairing the right intercept and defeat mechanism with the right target and threat.
13:47And we are certainly thankful for all the authorities and the tools that Congress has allowed us and enabled us to be able to accomplish this.
13:56On the what, I would say there is likely no single silver bullet, nor can we hyper-specialize on some of these areas, and we need a layered approach to be able to get after this.
14:09And that ranges everything from soldier common capability to things that may require a military occupational specialty for higher complex threats and capabilities and systems.
14:21We're shaping that what, I would say in a couple areas, one, more flexible requirements where we describe what it is that we want industry to provide versus overly prescribe and use continuous iterations with soldiers to inform.
14:38I would say also we have soldiers and users actively involved in the process so we can get their feedback and do so through experimentation or realistic conditions.
14:47And overall, I think this helps from material to training to employment.
14:52On UAS, the layered strategy from group one down at platoon level through our group two, our medium range, all the way up to our longer ranges at battalion and brigade.
15:04Couple that with modular packages that can do anything from intel comms, electronic warfare, all of which we can do so without putting soldiers at risk.
15:13On counter UAS, also continuing to modernize capabilities, not only through operational fixed sites for some of our operational units, as well as the soldier common kit and supporting operations in the homeland and focusing in on that sense,
15:27that decide, the ability that we need to do so and pair those weapons systems, and also intercept from non-kinetic, kinetic, and even at the homeland, low collateral capability given some of the urban environments.
15:40And finally, I would just collectively underscore it's imperative to keep pace with this and to continue to operate speed that we operate as a team, both with the Department of Defense.
15:52We've done great things with the DIU, with our joint services, and certainly with industry to share those best practices, insights, and a partner across many efforts.
16:01And I thank you very much for your continued support for your members and look forward to your questions.
16:12Sorry.
16:13Major General David, Andrew, I'm sorry, David Stewart.
16:16There we go.
16:17Trying to change your name.
16:19Chairman Whitman, Congressman Courtney, distinguished members of the subcommittee, and, of course, best wishes to ranking member Norcross.
16:28Thank you for inviting me here today to discuss counter small UAS, gaps, requirements, and projected capabilities.
16:35I serve as the director of the Joint Counter UAS Office, or JCO, the DOD's executive agent for countering groups one, two, and three UAS.
16:45The small UAS threat is present and constantly evolving.
16:50Conflicts in the Middle East and Ukraine demonstrate how advances in hardware, software, and tactics are making drones more autonomous, easily acquired, and deadlier.
17:03Compared to the IEDs that killed and injured thousands of American service members, UAS are more dangerous because they actively surveil, target, and deliver lethal effects from the air.
17:18Importantly, this threat is not just in operational environments abroad.
17:23Small UAS are becoming more prevalent here in the homeland.
17:26The JCO leads and synchronizes joint requirements, technologies, training, and doctrine to minimize duplication and redundancy.
17:36We are the connective tissue of the DOD, working daily across the department and interagency with industry, allies, and partners on all things counter small UAS.
17:47The JCO assesses urgent capability gaps and accelerates material development to our warfighters and enhance their lethality.
17:57Funding an enhanced common operating picture, investing in continued development of a cost efficient counter small UAS effector, and transitioning multiple systems to the services.
18:09The JCO has also funded operational assessments to multiple combatant commands.
18:14To get kit and warfighters hands, and simultaneously inform future service rapid acquisition decisions.
18:23We continue to invest in future technologies like low collateral effectors, high powered microwave, and directed energy.
18:32To further inform service acquisition decisions and accelerate future system development, the JCO hosts instrumented demonstrations.
18:41Where our industry partners showcase capabilities, and we invest in promising service led RDT and E efforts.
18:49Beyond materiel, the JCO executes rapid response teams to combatant commands, providing expertise on system and placement and operation.
18:59We funded the creation and further development of the DOD's only joint counter US university, and online modules to build doctrinal and training foundations.
19:12We also contributed to the DOD's counter US strategy and assist with policy development.
19:19Lastly, there is no silver bullet.
19:22The breadth of this threat requires a layered systems of systems approach.
19:27With your continued support, we aim to move faster for our warfighters and government-wide stakeholders to outpace this threat at home and abroad.
19:39Thank you, Major General Stewart.
19:40I appreciate the testimony of our witnesses, and we will now proceed to questions.
19:45Let me start by asking the entire panel this question.
19:48Where we see ourselves today is in the middle of a significant threat by unmanned aerial systems.
19:57Small and otherwise.
19:58Most of what we've seen is small.
19:59We've seen incursions at places like Joint Base Langley-Eustis, at Picatinny Arsenal.
20:04Those things should concern us deeply as I have gone and gotten the briefs on these threats.
20:10It's very clear to me that this is more than just a hobbyist that mistakenly flew a drone over a US military facility.
20:17This is purposeful.
20:18It's meant to not just gain information, which much of it can be gained by other sources, but it's meant to probe.
20:27It's meant to determine what is the reaction in the United States.
20:30What capabilities do they have, and how will they act, and then how can our adversaries counter that if they did choose to do something?
20:40To me, that's very, very problematic.
20:43Major General Stewart, I want to ask you, if there was a major incursion tonight at the United States military base, what would the response be?
20:54You talk about having kit.
20:55Is there a kit at these bases?
20:58Is there a kit that's in a mobile unit that can go?
21:01What would we do?
21:03How would we respond?
21:04How would we do things in a way, too, that not only eliminates the threat, but I think, as importantly, gives us the opportunity to gain intelligence on the source of that threat, the capability of that threat?
21:17You know, it's one thing to completely, kinetically destroy something, but it's another thing to be able to take it out, to take the threat away, but also to recover enough information to where we can take another step forward in our countermeasures.
21:30So, how do we do that, and how do we take lessons learned at Langley, especially where, in my mind, there was a complete breakdown in decision-making?
21:40I felt bad for the base commander there who said, hey, I want to be able to act.
21:45This platform was there for over 45 days, repeatedly.
21:51There were, unfortunately, responses we had to make in relation to that.
21:56As this base commander asked people above him, they said, oh, don't worry about it.
22:00You have the authorities.
22:01If you think it's an imminent threat, then you can use them.
22:04And he said, that's not the question I'm asking.
22:06I'm asking, if I use that authority, will you back me?
22:10Nobody above him would say that.
22:12They'd say, oh, you have the authorities.
22:13You can do it.
22:14So, here you have an 06 at a base that's 18 months away from retirement and is trying to make sure he's doing the right thing but is not quite confident that the folks above him have his back.
22:26And when we asked the folks from the Pentagon to come in and give us their assessment of that, we got a nice long assessment that was word salad.
22:36And then when I asked, well, what's the Pentagon's response going to be?
22:40The Pentagon says, well, we're going to impanel a work group.
22:44My head exploded.
22:46So, I want to know, SANS impaneling a work group, how are we going to address this?
22:53I understand the cross-jurisdictional issues.
22:55I think the authorities are clear in what the United States military has.
22:59I understand concerns by FAA, FCC, all of those different entities.
23:03But I would argue that the protection of our men and women in uniform and those facilities are job one, and that should be the priority.
23:12So, Major General Stewart, I know I've given a lot of background there, but I want to get your perspective on where would we be today if the same thing happened today at Langley or Picatinny?
23:21What would our response be, and could we act immediately to counter that and to gather the necessary information to make sure we're learning about the nature of this threat?
23:35So, each service and each installation will have different circumstances based mostly on the threat.
23:42And what we're finding with the threat is there are multiple ways to navigate, whether that's using radio frequency uplink-downlink, using waypoints through satellites, or loading optics in to use the terrain to fly.
23:58We're now even seeing tethered.
24:01So, back to the point that there is no one silver bullet.
24:06There's no one single way to detect these different threats.
24:10So, you need a system of a systems approach, for sure.
24:13Each service will look at the individual installations and the requirements that are required for capability, but beyond materiel, you point out some very good observations that training is essential, regularly rehearsed battle drills, and just really understanding policy, which the JCO has produced videos to help installation commanders understand their authorities.
24:42And then, lastly, I would just say, I believe and assess that the capability is there.
24:49We have a bit of a capacity problem across each one of the services at installations, but each service is prioritizing installations based on maybe critical infrastructure as well.
25:01And lastly, I know the NORTHCOM commander is looking for flyaway kits.
25:05I think that's critical.
25:06It'd be great if you could provide for the subcommittee an inventory of kit that's in place on these bases.
25:15I understand each service branch is responsible for their base.
25:18And then, I think mobile kit is critical, too, for maybe bases that don't have quite as high a level of threat.
25:24But if something's there, we can mobilize kit within 12 hours and have it on site to do both sensing and efforts to be able to neutralize these efforts.
25:34So if you could give us current assessment of that, that would be great.
25:38I want to now go to my colleague, Mr. Courtney.
25:41Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
25:44Mr. Beck, in your testimony, actually on page three, you actually spelled it out in writing about the fact that the traditional approach to defense procurement testing and fielding is simply unattainable.
25:58That's why DOD, with support from Congress, must reinforce progress made over the last few years.
26:03You know, as I think every member knows in the committee, Chairman Rogers and Mr. Smith, the ranking member, are very focused in terms of this year's NDAA in terms of acquisition reform.
26:13I mean, is there specific ways that we can help solve this issue of traditional procurement obstacles?
26:24So, I would love to spend the next 40 minutes and the next day talking about that, because the energy and passion that I've gotten that we've all got about getting after that is so enormous.
26:39I guess maybe to kind of just hit a couple of points really quickly.
26:43First, I think you've got to, you know, if you look at the world and the way that we operate this whole kind of defense procurement universe, we have the most dynamic market economy in the world here in the United States.
26:59And the only place in our entire economy that operates kind of like an old-style Soviet five-year plan is actually the way that we do kind of defense procurement and budgeting over time.
27:10And if you compare that to the commercial tech world that I come from, which is dominated by massive demand that you have confidence in, but uncertainty about where that demand is going to come from, and massive competition all the way up to the moment of sale, we live in a very different world in defense.
27:30So, a couple of concrete things that I think we should do differently that learn from that world.
27:35The first one is a shift from a very complex requirements-based approach to a needs-based approach.
27:42So, from a 300-page document that tells the tech sector here's exactly what we want you to go build, even though we may not know because they're the experts, it's their tech,
27:51it's a statement of the problem that we need solved operationally with the warfighter working together with the tech leaders to then come up with solutions to that problem.
28:01That's actually what we do at DIU, but we need to scale that across the department.
28:05And that will help us go fast and also leverage tech to really solve the problem.
28:09Second, it's about changing the dynamic to move to flexible funding as we have at DIU, thanks to the Congress as of last year.
28:19But we need to have that, I think, at greater scale and in the services as well, and move from an approach that's based on programs of record,
28:28which may make sense for certain categories of activity, but for technology that moves at an incredibly rapid pace,
28:35it makes no sense to be identifying exactly what you're going to buy in two years when the thing doesn't exist yet.
28:41And so moving from programs of record is something that looks more like a portfolio of record together with the right kind of transparency
28:48so that Congress can provide the oversight necessary to be able to move within that portfolio.
28:53Third, it's about having the talent and the porosity of talent for the department to be able to move in the right people in and out,
29:00to be able to help with all of this.
29:02And we have massive numbers of people who'd actually like to help, but we make it very hard for them to do so.
29:07And then fourth, it's about the approach to risk, and that dynamic that I mentioned at the end of my comments,
29:13that we've got to go from a kind of zero defect world to one in which, you know, in the company that I used to work for,
29:21we used to talk about 100 no's for every yes.
29:24If you think about what it took for SpaceX to get to the kind of launch capability they have
29:29and how many failed launches there were before they got to those successes, compare that to the way that we do it in the government system,
29:36we've got to be much more comfortable with failure on our way to success.
29:40And we also, that means we need to be partnered with Congress differently,
29:43because we need the Congress to help support the concept that we will fail on our way to success.
29:50Great. That's very helpful. And honestly, it's really aligned a lot with some of the testimony we've heard from industry over the last few months or so.
29:57And, you know, we're going to get to a place pretty soon we start putting pen to paper in terms of NDA this year,
30:05and certainly if you or your staff follow up, you know, with our committee staff.
30:10I mean, really, I think there's a window of opportunity here on all those issues about requirements reform, funding flexibility, you know, workforce and risk.
30:19I mean, those are, we want to make sure we can, you know, help unclog the system here,
30:26because obviously it's, you know, the urgency of everyone's testimony this morning, I think, is the overwhelming message.
30:33So thank you all for being here. I yield back.
30:35Thank you, sir.
30:36Very good. Thank you, Mr. Courtney. And when I go to Mr. Jimenez.
30:38Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and amen, Mr. Beck.
30:42I think that we've, my time here, it's pretty evident that the DOD has got a culture of a fear of failure.
30:53And I've quoted what Musk does with SpaceX a lot, where failure to him is success,
31:03because that means that's one more point of failure that won't happen because they figured it out.
31:09And so we need to get to that, where DOD doesn't have a fear of failure.
31:15And then we in Congress also have to change our MO because, you know, can you imagine if Starship were actually a NASA thing,
31:26and then, you know, the second one blew up or the first one blew up?
31:29The second one wouldn't have flown for five years, okay?
31:32And yet he just continues to fly.
31:34So we need to get to that, all right?
31:35And failure is just part of the process to get us there.
31:39I'm going to pivot a little bit.
31:42In 2017, I went to, at the time I was the mayor of Miami-Dade County, and I went to Israel,
31:49because I had a fear, and I still have that fear, that critical infrastructure, in my case we operated the Miami International Airport,
32:02was going to be vulnerable to drones.
32:06And if I had five drones, I could probably stop air travel worldwide, all right, if I do something, you know, coordinated.
32:15So my question is, by the way, we haven't done anything since 2017 that I've seen to protect our critical infrastructure,
32:24especially airports, et cetera, and transportation infrastructure.
32:27Do we share information with the civilian sector?
32:30And how can we accelerate the sharing of information so that we can protect the homeland better?
32:38I know we're trying to do it for our warfighter.
32:40I'm okay with that.
32:41I'm happy with that.
32:42I think, you know, that's our responsibility.
32:44But are we leaving the civilian sector behind because they're just as vulnerable as the warfighter?
32:52Anybody want to take that one off?
32:56Well, Mr. Beck, it's going to fall on you, okay?
32:59I can lead off.
33:01Okay.
33:02I mean, I believe initiatives like Replicator 2 and what's happening on the southern border will help DOD
33:09and the interagency advance our learning and coordination to identify problems here in the homeland,
33:17which is really helpful.
33:19Also, I think NORTHCOM being designated the synchronizer will help here at the homeland as well.
33:25From a JCO perspective, we have demonstrations that we do with our partners in industry.
33:32We also monthly meet with four to eight industry partners to bring them in and share our perspective and then learn from them.
33:43When you're talking industry, you're talking about the people that are making the stuff that shoots these things now?
33:47Or are you talking to the airport authorities and transportation authorities and said how to harden their infrastructure against these attacks?
33:59Mark my words.
34:01Mark my words, okay?
34:02Absolutely.
34:03This is not a question of if it's going to happen.
34:06Right.
34:07Because Murphy says if it can, it will.
34:09Okay?
34:10I would say both.
34:11Are we working with, you know, our civilian partners that have critical infrastructure to bring some kind of capability to defend against these unmanned aerial systems?
34:23Yes.
34:24One example of that is we perform tabletop exercises where we bring in 30 interagency partners from all over the government, state, and local to address policy and legal issues.
34:38And then we bring up issues, both CONUS and then looking at what's been learned in Ukraine and in the Middle East.
34:45So we do bring that body together to share ideas and come up with common solutions.
34:53If I could augment two as well, General Collins from the Army.
34:57I would say, yes, we have in one particular example as we learned activities at Picatinny, the ability to do that cross collaboration with state, local, and federal authorities.
35:10And this was everything from how we sensed in particular environments when you have a lot of collateral and you had to deconflict that.
35:19Two, I'd also say in the intercept to make sure that we look at things like the ability to have, like, net capture or tangle drones to be able to bring them down without having, you know, significant challenges in spectrum deconfliction.
35:32I would say those are other areas.
35:34And as we go through all of those battle drills, as we discussed, how you have that cross communication and clear lines of authority are absolutely the things that we're starting to get after, not just on the M side of material, how we do that, all the coordination that goes to effect in that infrastructure with other agencies.
35:53Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
35:54Thank you, Mr. Menes.
35:55We'll now go to Mr. Carbajal.
35:56Oh, sir, sir.
35:57Can I add one quick thing to that?
35:58Sure.
35:59Sure.
36:00I'm not good at this, but.
36:01Yeah.
36:02So I would just add one, maybe two quick points.
36:05The first one is that one of the areas that we are spending an enormous amount of time on is particularly around the technologies and sensing to be able to have a much broader reach of sense, including some of the unique ways that we can do that, not just leveraging kind of acoustic, radar, 5G, LTE, but also the data that exists out there in highly populated areas, leveraging all of that to do a better job of sensing, and then leveraging AI to be able to pull all that together and do rapid
36:32decision-making based on it.
36:33So that's one thing.
36:34So that's one thing.
36:35Second thing is the general mentioned Replicator 2 initiative.
36:39We've actually had the FAA directly involved as part of that initiative as we've been going through it, and we will be launching just next week a low collateral defeat DIU CSO focused on those low collateral technologies for defeating drones, particularly in highly populated areas, and the FAA is part of that effort.
36:59Very good.
37:02Mr. Carvajal.
37:03Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
37:04Thank you to all the witnesses being here today.
37:07Being a Marine, I always get excited when we have Marines on the panel, so.
37:12I have been glad to see different parts of DOD lean into commercially available technology like DIU with the blue list.
37:21Obviously, we need to push the cutting edge and rapidly prototype to innovate and to adapt to get the warfighter what they need.
37:32Mr. Beck, can you walk me through the rationale behind the blue UAS refresh that took place in 2024?
37:41And are you worried that removing companies from the blue list will erode trust with the industrial base?
37:50Yes.
37:51So I'm really glad that you brought this up because the, so first I'll answer your specific question about what we did in 2024, but then maybe walk quickly through the evolution of blue.
38:03And I mentioned in my prepare remarks that we are right now doing a complete revamp of blue to get after exactly the challenge that I think you just alluded to.
38:14So the first is in 2024, we did a major refresh of the list in order to reflect the huge change that's come in the technologies themselves.
38:25And that was fundamentally about changing the quality, everything from electronic warfare resiliency to lethality, as well as cost, because we need these things to be less expensive, frankly, than they were.
38:42And so that's what that was all about.
38:45Now, as a reminder, the blue list primarily is, from its inception, was about ensuring that providers of unmanned systems were vetted to be compliant with the law in terms of Chinese parts and Chinese capital.
39:06And one of the things that sort of has happened over time is, frankly, the scale of the industry and the pace of the industry has outgrown the processes and the way that we work through it.
39:18So, for example, when we started blue in 2019, there were a couple dozen companies to be thinking about vetting.
39:25By the time we actually did the first list, there were over 100 that tried to get on the list, of which there were a couple of dozens that actually meet those hard criteria established in the law.
39:37Now, there are hundreds, maybe even thousands, that could meet that list.
39:41And we are still using that same sippy straw, effectively, in order to vet them all in a very white-glove way, one at a time, to issue an ATO.
39:51And so we're changing that now so that the compliance piece that says, does this company meet the standard that's been established in the law, and therefore, are they legal to buy?
40:01We are making that, working very closely with industry, who we've been spending a lot of time on, how do we revamp this?
40:07We're making that a truly compliance-based list that anybody who meets those criteria can get on, and that's done constantly on an ongoing basis,
40:16so that you meet the criteria, you can be on the list.
40:20And then we're taking those that actually reach that higher standard, and that include those quality requirements,
40:26and they're really the best of the best, in terms of including, for example, one that just came on the list during this last revamp.
40:33That's the first U.S. company using only U.S. parts that's getting to Ukraine-level levels of both costs, with just a couple thousand dollars and dropping,
40:42and thousands of units a month and rising.
40:45And taking that, and for that group, which we're going to call Blue Select, effectively giving them that white-glove treatment,
40:52helping them to scale across the department.
40:54So it'll be kind of a two-tiered system.
40:56And that's really important to avoid the kind of challenges that I think you alluded to,
41:00and that we've heard very much from our partners in the tech sector.
41:04The third thing I'll say on this is that those first two pieces that I talked about are important,
41:08but the biggest thing that we've got to do to really make our unmanned systems capability grow in the way that we need to,
41:15is put the scale behind this, the scale of demand signal that will allow the flywheel to really go.
41:21And so that's about establishing, if I go back to my earlier comments, effectively a portfolio of record in the unmanned systems space,
41:29funding it at the right scale, and then giving the services as well as the rest of us a chance to go and help go after that.
41:36That was actually a good filibuster in answering my question.
41:40I have limited time now, but thank you. That was very thorough.
41:44I'm going to submit these questions and hope that I can get an answer for the record.
41:48Mr. Chair, I yield back.
41:50Thank you, Mr. Carvajal. We appreciate that, and we'll make sure that your questions get submitted and answered.
41:56We'll now go to Mr. McGuire.
41:58Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you to our witnesses for being here today.
42:01You know, I echo the Chairman's frustrations with the flyovers at Langley Air Force Base and other installations.
42:08I know today is more about equipment, but I want to talk to you guys about an advisory real quick.
42:14So in 2020, there was an advisory. It was put out by the Department of Justice, the Department of Transportation, let's see, FCC, and the Department of Homeland Security.
42:25And the title of that advisory says, the Advisory on the Application of Federal Laws to the Acquisition and Use of Technology to Detect and Mitigate Unmanned Aircraft Systems.
42:35I believe the reason our commanders hesitate is because they're treating a remote-controlled airplane or a drone as if it was a passenger airliner.
42:45And so I'd like to, with unanimous consent, I'd like to enter this advisory into the record.
42:51Without objection.
42:53Without objection.
42:54And so our team is looking at legislation to possibly amend 18 U.S.C. 32 code and basically changing the language from aircraft to manned aircraft.
43:06And I think that will get rid of the stigma that comes with that advisory that came out in 2020.
43:10So again, we've entered that in the record.
43:12But let's go back to equipment.
43:14I recently visited the Starbase in Texas where Elon Musk is building the Starship.
43:20He can take 150-plus tons of equipment into space, and he cannot meet the demand.
43:25I mean, it's amazing how efficient he is.
43:27He puts engineers on the floor, not up in some air-conditioned office.
43:32So if you're working on a rocket and you see a weakness, you can go straight to an engineer and fix it on the assembly line.
43:38Or if you see an improvement, you can go straight to an engineer and fix it.
43:43So every rocket gets better, better, and better.
43:46And one of the things I heard him say is he actually said when he has a project, he wants to fail as hard as possible, as fast as possible.
43:55You can imagine if it drags on forever and ever and ever.
43:58So I just want to echo the comments that you guys said.
44:01I also heard a comment, I think it was from General Stewart.
44:04You said that this UAS threat is way worse than the IED threat that we experienced in the Middle East, and that makes a lot of sense to me.
44:11And so it is a real threat.
44:13It is a real threat.
44:14So that being the case, and I'd like to ask all members of the panel, is how are we doing on outpacing this threat at home and abroad?
44:22And we'll start with Mr. Beck.
44:28I think we've got a long way to go.
44:31So we are making enormous progress.
44:33We are accelerating against that challenge.
44:36You can hear that up and down here.
44:38And I also think we've got a long way to go to get to the level of meeting the threat and also the level of pace of change that's necessary in the way the technology moves across sense, decide, and act to be able to meet the challenge at the scale that we see it.
44:55Since we have limited time, let's just go real quickly.
44:58Lieutenant General Austin.
44:59Sir, thank you for the question.
45:00I would tell you, from a Marine Corps perspective, we're happy but not satisfied.
45:03We're making progress.
45:04We're fielding equipment that has the agility and the built-in open architecture to adapt and improve from a software and a hardware perspective.
45:11But we've got ways to go to keep up with the threat and exceed the threat.
45:16General Collins.
45:17I would say from the Army, we're making progress, but we still have much to go on since.
45:21As mentioned, we need to get the better ability to deconflict.
45:25You know, there's a lot of, you know, things that are out there that we need to discriminate these targets, understand what it is.
45:33On the decide piece, use AI with data to be able to identify and pair those with weapons.
45:38And then on the intercept, not only on kinetic but on non-kinetic and low collateral so that we can lower the cost curve and be able to get after some of the threats that are swarms and things that go into an autonomous mode.
45:49I think about the Patriot missile systems and things like that.
45:52Yes.
45:53Small dollars taking out big dollars.
45:54Right.
45:55And General Stewart.
45:56I suspect we've had some great success in the Middle East leveraging against Group 3-1, Group 3 one-way attacks using Coyote, APKWS, and then SM-2, 3, and 6.
46:11So that was the most important and dangerous threat, the Group 3 one-way attack.
46:18Now we're seeing both home and abroad the Groups 1 and 2 smaller for swarm and mass attack.
46:24And Mr. Beck, you mentioned that you visited Ukraine and you went to the tunnels where I guess they're producing these drones at a very low cost.
46:32How would you – if you could in this environment, how would you compare our capabilities to do the same or better to scale compared to Ukraine?
46:40Well, I mean, I think that we need to be able to scale at a whole other level of scale.
46:47But maybe I'd make two comments.
46:50First one is that what I saw there was very impressive because you've got literally in basements and, you know, 3D printers, developers, together with warfighters, coming up with an incredibly iterative process to move.
47:03And, you know, our system is not built to do that, which is why we right now buy, you know, 4,000 or 5,000 drones a year in our system.
47:16And there are 4,000 a day being produced over there.
47:19So we're on a different scale.
47:21One thing I would – that we're doing to try to get after this or help to is to link the incredible capability that we have for hardware and software
47:29in some of these emerging companies who just don't have the scalability yet.
47:34With the incredible capability in advanced manufacturing that we're now seeing in the United States,
47:38everything from digital engineering all the way through the 3D printing, putting those two groups together
47:43and giving them an opportunity to effectively find each other so both can scale, which is strategic for us.
47:48That's the Blue Manufacturing Initiative that I mentioned.
47:51You're back.
47:52Thank you, Mr. Proviro.
47:53Now I go to Mr. Bell.
47:54Thank you to the Chair and Ranking Member.
47:58Thank you all for being here.
48:01During our hearing with NORTHCOM, I asked General Guillot about the importance of instituting strong policies to counter UAS
48:10and to protect our military and intelligence installations.
48:14His recommendations included putting all DOD installations under Section 130I
48:23and expand the rules of engagement for drones.
48:26General Collins, what are the current capability gaps in detecting and countering drones near military installations?
48:35And how is the Joint Counter Small Unmanned Aircraft Systems Office working to address these challenges with both existing and future technologies?
48:45Thank you, Mr. Congressman.
48:46Thank you, Mr. Congressman.
48:48I think that's a very good question.
48:51I think, you know, first, as we start to look at what we're putting out on the installations in the homeland, our ability to sense and look through the clutter that is a unique thing as part of the urban environment is one area that we're specifically looking at.
49:06I would say, too, in the DECIDE area, there's a lot of data that we get in from a lot of different sources.
49:12And as Mr. Beck mentioned, you know, as we couple that data and we use the artificial intelligence to be able to sift through that data in what is literally milliseconds to be able to respond.
49:22And then on the intercept, you know, how do we have the ability to have that range and to go after, whether it be swarm, whether it be individual, and do so and defeat that in a very low collateral manner?
49:33So that's probably one area.
49:36I would say, too, we've been partnering closely with the JCO team on particularly in the policy.
49:42I would say, first, in the coordination that needs to go into place.
49:47We've learned a lot about how we need to be able to do that, learn those lessons and replicate that across all those various environments.
49:55The second piece is a training aspect in which the JCO has helped, I think, across all the services, everything from how we do installation
50:03training to mobile training to everything as simple as a video that someone can go out and watch.
50:08And then, as already mentioned, too, the SOPs on those battle drills to get out there and rehearse, rehearse, rehearse.
50:15And those are areas to make sure that folks are comfortable with not only the capability they have, what we're going to pursue,
50:21but that the authorities that they have so that they can make sure that they make timely decisions when something, an incursion should occur.
50:30May I add, Congressman?
50:31Sure.
50:32Very quickly.
50:33I would say, from a Homeland perspective, looking at low collateral defeat mechanisms, as well as active and passive sensors, not one or the other.
50:42And then I know General Guilla is looking to expand 130i to extend to all installations.
50:48I just want to reinforce that the services, all services, are also pursuing those installations that are covered under 130i, but expanding would give us more crisis response ability.
51:00And then lastly, DOD is working to consolidate and clarify policy to prevent that policy confusion.
51:07And Mr. Beck, what remains of some of the key technical challenges DIU is seeking to overcome in its efforts to identify counter-UAS solutions for the protection of military installations?
51:23And to what extent will such technology be relevant to other federal departments and agencies?
51:29So the areas that we're really focused on break down into that sense, decide, and act that we've all been talking about.
51:39And so on the sensing side, the ability for our teams to be able to see what's coming.
51:47So that's new acoustic technologies.
51:49It's radar that's lower cost and smaller and can be mobile.
51:53It's leveraging 5G and LTE, and it's leveraging that commercial data.
51:56I mentioned the AI-enabled decision support, which is really a critical, critical area, because the volume of data and the speeds that we're talking about, as the general referred to, is truly astronomical.
52:08And that's a major area that we're focused on.
52:10And frankly, where the commercial tech sector has capabilities that are immediately applicable that we need to figure out how to get on board.
52:15And we're in the middle of doing that.
52:16In fact, we have a project with the Army right now that we're working very closely on exactly that.
52:21And then from a commercial tech sector in particular, on the act side, it's really about those low collateral interceptors and getting after those solutions,
52:36whether it's through electronic means or low kinetic ballistics means or other forms of bringing those drones down.
52:45And those solutions, I think, are extremely applicable to others, not just to us.
52:51I think that's my time. I yield back.
52:54Thank you, Mr. Bill. Appreciate it.
52:55We'll now go to Mr. Hamide.
52:56Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
52:57Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
52:58General Collins, there's a huge contrast between what Israel was able to accomplish jointly with the US and partners in stopping hundreds of missiles and drones.
53:07And we saw how just one drone was used to tragically kill our soldiers in Jordan.
53:12Now, are we better able to counter drone threats in the region than when Iran barraged Israel last year?
53:18Mr. Congressman, I think we have been able to take the lessons learned, and we are better off as we start to take a look at how we've prepositioned capability,
53:31how we have put out our ability to sense, to distribute.
53:35There are things that we have done in our intercept capability, specifically on the time to launch, from the time to seek and the time to be able to destroy,
53:45so that we've been able to learn, and then as we start to look and we've partnered with the Jayco,
53:50as we start to see various parts of the threat, specifically in the group three, how they increase speed, how they increase altitude and maneuverability,
53:58making sure that we are not only keeping pace, but getting ahead of the pace of how that we get, we're able to address those threats.
54:05Also, within the layering of the capability, taking a look at other alternative means from both kinetic and non-kinetic means,
54:13to provide a multi-layered approach for protection.
54:16And could our outposts or even a major base, such as Al Udeid in Qatar, sustain such a barrage and wave of drones attack?
54:24I think we'd need to, you know, at each, every one of those sites, we've looked at the threat profile,
54:29to make sure that we've got the appropriate mechanisms to defend each one of those sites.
54:34Mr. Beck, in your view as Director of the Defense Innovation Unit, how could a partnership with Israel help bring us up to speed?
54:43Sorry. So, I think there are probably two forms of getting to kind of specific technologies.
54:50The first one is actively learning from the experience that the Israelis are having,
54:57where they're putting, obviously, an enormous amount of effort into the challenge.
55:00They're seeing it every single day.
55:02And they have extremely adept technology in Israel,
55:06plus they're very adept at leveraging technology from the rest of the world.
55:09And so, we actively learn from what they're doing in the DIU.
55:12And then the second piece is specific kit, specific technology, specific companies that are doing that in Israel.
55:22And one of the things about DIU, when we will, if the very best capability is from one of our allies or partners,
55:32we will take that on board.
55:34And sometimes one of the two or three prototypes that we end up awarding to will be from one of our allies or partners.
55:41And General Austin, the 2021 NDA requested a joint electronic warfare training range plan.
55:47Are you familiar with that?
55:49I am not, sir.
55:51Okay.
55:52We're going to submit this question for the record.
55:54I hope just get a response, okay?
55:55Absolutely.
55:56And I know we've got votes coming up.
55:58Mr. Chairman, I will submit my final questions for the record.
56:01I yield back.
56:02Thank you, Mr. Hamaday.
56:04And I would encourage other members, too, if you have additional questions,
56:07to submit them for the record in the face of us having a pending vote
56:11and then a lot of people getting ready to head back to their districts.
56:15We will do that.
56:16And I want to thank our witnesses for joining us today.
56:19This has been incredibly helpful.
56:20It will indeed inform what happens in this year's NDAA where I think we need to take some additional steps forward.
56:27I know there's been a lot of discussion about 130I.
56:30I look at it and believe that the authorities are there.
56:33I think a lot of times there's hesitancy on other agencies for various and sundry reasons.
56:40Many are not related to the threats that we face on the base.
56:43But, again, you know, trying to mitigate what they believe is their risk.
56:47I think it's fairly clear under 130I what we can do and what we need to do.
56:50But we will make sure we provide a little refinement there in this year's NDAA.
56:54So, again, I want to thank our panel today.
56:56Thank you so much for your reflection on what we need to do.
56:59Thanks for what you're doing.
57:00Thanks for pushing this issue forward.
57:02It is incredibly important for us to be able to do these things, especially in light of all the other tangential information that's come out in the last eight months on drone sightings across the nation.
57:12I think people are in a heightened state of awareness on this.
57:15And when they ask about what's happening on a military basis, they want to feel confident that we are responding and responding quickly.
57:21So I appreciate the panel.
57:23And if there are no further comments, this subcommittee stands adjourned.