India on Wednesday exposed Pakistan at a United Nations forum for its acceptance with regard to funding terror, citing the country's Defence Minister Khawaja Asif admitting that they did it for the West for three decades.
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00:00Good evening, hello and welcome. You're with the news today, your prime time destination news.
00:04Newsmakers talking points tonight, Wednesday night.
00:08Global pressure is slowly mounting on India and Pakistan to de-escalate.
00:15Amidst all this, can India isolate Pakistan and label it a terrorist state?
00:22Sayyid Akbaruddin, India's former representative to the United Nations, will be joining me in a moment.
00:29But also, my other focus tonight, the Narendra Modi government has greenlit the caste census.
00:37Is this caste count divisive or a much needed exercise?
00:40Can the Congress claim credit? Can Rahul Gandhi claim credit?
00:44Or has Modi now once again got the advantage?
00:49The caste debate too.
00:51First, as always, it's time for the nine headlines at nine.
00:54Major announcement by the Narendra Modi, government caste census gets nod.
01:01Rahul Gandhi says, centre has adopted the caste census under Congress pressure.
01:07BJP calls the Congress' original caste census plan unscientific.
01:12Prime Minister Modi chairs a key security meeting, reviews security in Jammu and Kashmir.
01:20Overall's National Security Advisory Board ex-Raw chief is appointed the head.
01:29Rahul Gandhi urges Prime Minister to respond without dilly-dallying after Pahalgaam attack.
01:36says, make terrorists pay, assures full support of the opposition for any step government takes.
01:44Lashkar chief Hafiz Saeed tracked to a Lahore safe house.
01:48India's enemy number one is hiding in plain sight.
01:52India today accesses satellite images of terror mastermind's hideout.
01:56India warns Pakistan against repeated ceasefire violations along LOC.
02:04India and Pakistan DGMOs hold talks.
02:09Fearing retaliation, Pakistan minister holds a midnight briefing, claims India to strike in 24 to 36 hours.
02:17Park Air Force grounds jets, conducts air exercises, stops flights to POK.
02:26Eight people killed in a wall collapsed at a temple in Andhra Pradesh's Sima Chalam.
02:32Ex-gratia of rupees 2 lakh each for families of victims.
02:36Jagatmohan Reddy accuses the Chandra Babu Naidu government of negligence.
02:42Supreme Court orders revision of KYC norms for visually impaired and acid attack victims
02:47as right to digital access, part of right to life and liberty.
02:50Bangladesh court grants bail to former ISKCON police Chinmoy Das in a sedition case.
02:57Das released after six months behind bars.
02:59The story we are breaking this evening.
03:11Prime Minister Narendra Modi has met the Army Chief General Upendra Divedi a short while ago.
03:17Foreign Minister S. Jai Shankar and NSA Ajit Doval also attended that high-level meet.
03:24This is part of a series of meetings that the Prime Minister has been holding with security chiefs
03:28after the Pahalgam attack, terror attack last week.
03:32India, meanwhile, has warned Pakistan against continued ceasefire violations.
03:37Indian and Pakistani Director Generals of Military Operations, DGMOs, have held talks over a hotline.
03:43The U.S. Secretary of State, Rubio, is expected to call both Indian and Pakistani leaders later today,
03:50expected to speak to the Foreign Minister Jai Shankar and the Pakistani Foreign Minister Ishak Dar.
03:56So plenty happening both on the diplomatic and military front at the moment in both countries.
04:02I want to go to our Diplomatic Affairs Editor Gita Mohan and Kamaljeet Sandhu who is on the ground in Kashmir.
04:09Kamaljeet, we are hearing that the two DGMOs have held talks amidst continuing ceasefire violations,
04:15small artillery fire by the Pakistanis across the LOC.
04:19What more details can you provide there in Srinagar?
04:26Within the past days, eight days, what we have seen is at least six times there have been ceasefire violations
04:33across line of control both in Naushera, both sides of Peer Panjal, both in Kupwara side,
04:40Baramula, Naushera, other sectors as well.
04:43So this is a sort of escalation that we see across line of control.
04:47But this may just be the sideshow.
04:49The main one is what is expected is an imminent surgical strike, Part 3.
04:54And what we have seen is there have been a slew of meetings.
04:59And what we know is the Prime Minister has just met the Army Chief, the NSA, as well as the Foreign Affairs Minister.
05:06So this is a clear indication that there's going to be a diplomatic offensive.
05:11What is in pipeline is also a military response and a retribution, which is expected in the next couple of hours or days or so.
05:20There is supposedly a surprise tactics in waiting.
05:24But clearly, Pakistan has also upped the ante because that's how we see there is a cross-border action.
05:31There is obviously one thing what intelligence sources do estimate is that as far as Pakistan is concerned,
05:38since this is a precise Pehelgam terror attack planned, they would have done reverse planning.
05:44That means they would have prepared a military plan in place.
05:47Then they would have planned the calling back of terrorists from the launch pads,
05:53at least 40 or 3 of them which were active, and thereafter planned this particular attack.
05:58So the planning by Pakistan is already done.
06:01But the surprise is held by India now.
06:04We've seen after Udi, we've seen after Pulwama terror attack, both in 2014 and 2019,
06:10a retribution happened, a big surgical strikes happened.
06:14But meanwhile, even as several countries are calling for de-escalation,
06:19it seems the strike may simply be imminent.
06:23And it's not about action at the borders.
06:25In hinterland, multiple operations underway in South Kashmir.
06:29We know that's what is happening.
06:31Jammu Kashmir police, the RR, as well as CRPF,
06:34CRPF, all in different places, anti-fidane squads by Indian Army,
06:40they're all in place.
06:41So multiple operations underway,
06:43but meanwhile, all eyes on the line of control and the international border.
06:48Let me go for a moment to Geeta Mohan,
06:51because at the moment, there is also focus, Geeta,
06:54on that call expected from the U.S. Secretary of State, Rubio,
06:59to Jai Shankar and to Ishakdar of Pakistan.
07:03U.S., it appears, is trying to somehow or the other ensure a de-escalation of tensions.
07:10What exactly is expected in the next few days when it comes to the diplomatic offensive?
07:17Well, Rajdeep, after Iran, China, the U.N. Secretary General,
07:21now we have the United States of America also in a press conference yesterday
07:26saying that there needs to be de-escalation,
07:28that the two sides need to choose the diplomatic route rather than escalating tensions.
07:34Nobody at this point in time, at this juncture,
07:36wants an Indo-Pak conflict, even a limited one at that,
07:40because for America, the stakes are very high.
07:43Marco Rubio, Secretary of State, is going to have a conversation
07:47with Ishakdar, Foreign Minister of Pakistan,
07:50as also External Affairs Minister, S.J. Shankar.
07:53And that certainly will be the message that will be conveyed
07:56to New Delhi and to Islamabad.
07:58The reason being, at this point in time,
08:01when there's a massive tariff underway between America and China,
08:06India is critical for America,
08:09and they do not want India diverting its attention
08:12to an Indo-Pak conflict rather than focusing on economy,
08:16given that the slump that we're seeing now in the United States of America.
08:21In fact, the new figures that have come out show the U.S. has gone into,
08:27there's been a decline in growth rate,
08:29but is there, Gita, pressure being put only by the United States,
08:34or are we seeing other countries also dialing in to the two leaderships
08:39to try and see how they can de-escalate tension,
08:42and what is India's likely response to be to the United States at this stage?
08:46Well, the meetings are quite telling.
08:48We're looking at not just the CCS, CCPA, CCEA cabinet that took place yesterday.
08:55There are a series of meetings that took place today,
08:57including one that just concluded with Dr. Jai Shankar,
09:02the Army Chief, Security Officials, National Security Advisor,
09:06and Prime Minister Narendra Modi in that meeting at 7LKM.
09:12And then, parallelly, there is another meeting that's underway,
09:16which is being chaired by Home Minister Amit Shah on the Indus Waters Treaty.
09:20Very, very specific over here that India is going to respond, Rajdeep,
09:25and that is the message that is being conveyed to the international community,
09:29that this attack is not going to be taken lying down by India.
09:33There is going to be a response, although, like you rightly pointed out,
09:37there are countries with massive stakes in stability and peace in the region
09:41who have already not just sought de-escalation.
09:45Iran has offered its good offices.
09:47The United Nations is very worried.
09:49The United Secretary-General has already spoken to the leaders.
09:52And now we're looking at Marco Rubio also, who is going to weigh in.
09:55But India's message is going to be that there needs to be a response.
09:59Not to forget, it's been eight days and the terrorists are still on the run.
10:03That's right. Eight days, the terrorists are still on the run.
10:06Small artillery fire continuing across the LOC.
10:09India having sent a warning to Pakistan already.
10:12A series of meetings taking place.
10:14Whether that will lead to de-escalation or eventually retaliation,
10:18well, the next week should tell us what lies ahead.
10:23Appreciate both of you joining me.
10:26Now, remember, tensions between the two countries, India and Pakistan,
10:29are boiling by the day.
10:31The line of control in particular witnessing intense escalation.
10:35Pakistan violating the ceasefire in multiple sectors with Indian forces responding.
10:40Amidst the flare-up, India issuing another strong warning to Pakistan,
10:44stressing the seriousness of the situation.
10:46Pakistan's information minister claiming to have intelligence suggesting an imminent Indian strike.
10:51As we said earlier, the United States now looking to step in, urging both countries to de-escalate
10:56with U.S. Secretary of State Marco Rubio set to engage with Indian and Pakistani counterparts.
11:02Yesterday night, U.N. Secretary General Antonio Guterres has also intervened,
11:06speaking separately to Pakistan Prime Minister Shahbaz Sharif,
11:10Indian External Affairs Minister Dr. Jai Shankar.
11:13So, all of this coming at a time when Pakistan's National Assembly Foreign Minister Ishak Dar taking credit
11:20for blocking the terror group TRF from being named in a U.N. resolution on the Pahalgam terror attack.
11:27India's envoy, Yojana Patel, exposing Pakistan's duplicity at the U.N.,
11:32calling it out for its role as a hub for terror.
11:35Listen in to the comments that were made in the United Nations,
11:39and then we'll be joined by a former Indian diplomat.
11:45Pakistan has credible intelligence that India intends carrying out military action against Pakistan
11:53in the next 24 to 36 hours on the pretext of baseless and concocted allegations
12:00of involvement in the Pahalgam incident.
12:03Pahalgam incident
12:33It is unfortunate that one particular delegation has chosen to misuse and undermine this forum
12:49to indulge in propaganda and make baseless allegations against India.
12:53The whole world has heard Pakistan's Defense Minister Khwaja Asif
12:59admitting and confessing Pakistan's history of supporting, training and funding terrorist organizations
13:06in a recent television interview.
13:09This open confession surprises no one
13:12and exposes Pakistan as a rogue state,
13:16fueling global terrorism and destabilizing the region.
13:19The world can no longer turn a blind eye to Pakistan is India's message at the United Nations.
13:32Will that message resonate?
13:34Sayyad Akbaruddin, India's former permanent representative to the United Nations, joins us.
13:39Sayyad Akbaruddin, we've seen in the past India raise its voice against Pahk-based terror at the United Nations.
13:45But we've also seen Pakistan, particularly because of its close relationship with China,
13:52with its veto powers getting away each time.
13:55Can this be any different?
13:56So, Rajdeep, first of all, between India and Pakistan, the diplomatic bandwidth is very limited.
14:06And you know this because you've covered it for so long.
14:11Bilaterally, we have very limited leverage with each other.
14:16Multilaterally, the world is in an unpredictable, uncertain situation
14:20where peace and security globally are not on the main table where things can be sorted out.
14:30I mean, look at what's just happened in the last few days.
14:34The trouble between Congo and Rwanda would not be resolved in the Security Council.
14:39The trouble between Azerbaijan and Armenia could not be resolved.
14:44Issues in the South China Sea cannot be resolved.
14:47So, let's understand that while diplomacy is the first response to try and ensure that differences don't become conflictual,
15:01in this case of India and Pakistan, diplomatic leverages are very limited,
15:05both bilaterally as well as in multilateral fora.
15:09So, I don't expect these simmerings that are going on to have very much of a resonance
15:17because, to me, it looks like Pakistan is playing by its old playbook.
15:22Listening to the information minister brought me back memories of when I was the first secretary at the UN in 1998.
15:32Pakistan called our high commissioner at midnight and said,
15:36we have information, credible information, that India and Israel are going to attack our nuclear assets.
15:44They then called all members of the Security Council, Dimashid, all European Union members, etc.,
15:50saying, we see an imminent threat right in the middle of the night.
15:55I see that playbook being played again.
15:57The same old stories of denial, deceit and deception.
16:02So, it's not too new.
16:04No, that's the point.
16:05If it's the same old story of denial, deception, why doesn't the world call it out?
16:11Why does the United States not call it out?
16:14Why do countries which claim otherwise that they are part of a global coalition against terror not call out Pakistan?
16:21Is it the China angle?
16:22That China, for example, when it came to Masood Azhar, resisted getting him called a designated terrorist?
16:27I think you were there at the United Nations at the time.
16:31Yes, it's true that many of these things in the United Nations are done not in face-to-face negotiations,
16:40but through what they call the by-circulation.
16:46And as you said, Masood Azhar took us 20 years to get him designated as a terrorist,
16:53simply because the United Nations is not fit for purpose to address terrorism.
17:00It was fit for purpose in 1945 to address different types of threats to peace and security.
17:08Those threats have now changed.
17:10The United Nations has not kept in pace, and to expect that to address issues as complex as India and Pakistan
17:18would be difficult to even fathom, because let me tell you,
17:23the last time a formal meeting of the United Nations Security Council on India and Pakistan took place was in 1965.
17:33That's 60 years ago, Rajdeep.
17:35So, let's be clear that most countries will shun the issue of India and Pakistan.
17:42The last time, there was an informal attempt by China after Article 370 was annulled.
17:48China tried to call the informal discussion, and every member spoke up saying,
17:54India and Pakistan issues, this is not the place.
17:57Let them sort it out separately.
17:59And therefore, despite its best effort, China couldn't get anything on the agenda.
18:03So, don't expect any difference now.
18:06Multilateral approaches to peace and security are perhaps not the way to go about.
18:12But in a way, the very fact that Pakistan managed to exclude TRF, the resistance forum,
18:21which had claimed responsibility for the Pahal Ghaam attack, the Baisaran attack,
18:25excluded from the resolution, clearly suggests that they don't want to, they will never admit
18:35to having sponsored and fostered these groups on their soil.
18:40And as I said, they get away with it each time.
18:42So, Rajli, we are right that it's pretty clear that by supporting an organization which had claimed
18:52at the time when the United Nations Security Council was discussing this issue,
18:59the PRF had actually claimed that it was responsible.
19:05The last time it happened, the Jesh-e-Mohammed had claimed and we were able to put it in.
19:11Then the Jesh recanted, like the TRF has recanted now.
19:15And I remember the then Pakistani Foreign Minister Shah Mohamed Qureshi said,
19:19no, the Jesh-e-Mohammed people have told us they are not involved.
19:23So, this is the same game.
19:25But having said that, again, if consensus is the basis for decision making,
19:31which it is in this case of a press release, which is not even in a formal meeting,
19:36but by a circulation procedure, you can expect that it's never going to go through
19:41when out of the 15 members, two members will be opposed to it.
19:47That said, let's be clear, the others are pretty understanding of what happens.
19:52Let us not think like you have come to the conclusion that why is Pakistan trying
19:57and supporting an organization which nobody else knows,
20:00which has a track record of support of indulging in terror activities.
20:06Don't you think the rest of the countries know?
20:08But it's by consensus.
20:10So, the United Nations system is a suboptimal system.
20:15That suboptimal system doesn't work in such cases.
20:19So, let me ask you in conclusion, what's the best way forward?
20:22You've got the U.S. Secretary of State ringing up Jai Shankar.
20:24He's going to ring up the Pakistan counterpart.
20:28What's, according to you, the best way to deal with a country
20:31that refuses to acknowledge its role in sponsoring terror?
20:36How does one remove this veil of deniability?
20:39So, Rajdeep, as I told you, I don't see diplomacy as the way forward.
20:47I've seen this happen before.
20:48John Kerry had phoned Mrs. Sussma Swaraj prior to a similar attack previously in 2016.
20:56So, it's not unusual for Secretaries of State to do this effort, to make that effort.
21:03Having said that, let's be clear, if diplomacy is not there, and if we do not want an escalation
21:10of a nature that nobody will have control on, then there are multiple areas which can be looked at.
21:19For example, there are non-traditional security responses that can be looked at.
21:23I'm not going to get into what they are, because those in authority have a greater,
21:29a better picture of what non-traditional security responses can be.
21:34But it has to be meaningful, because diplomacy has played its hand.
21:40The maximum we could have done was the Indus Water Treaty.
21:43We've thrown the dice there.
21:46We've indicated that we will keep it in abeyance, but that's not an immediate solution.
21:50It will have long-term and middle-term repercussions.
21:54You want other repercussions of a meaningful nature, less than kinetic, perhaps non-traditional
22:02mechanisms are there, and let's leave it at that, because these are best handled by those
22:08who know what they are, and to use those things.
22:11In any case, I think a meaningful response is required now to establish some form of deterrence.
22:19My final question, if India is to exercise one of those kinetic options, do you believe
22:25the world will stand by India, given the horror of what happened in Baisaran?
22:31So, let me put it another way.
22:35I think India has the diplomatic ability to ward off any challenges to a response that it
22:43is now taking in self-defense.
22:44There are, under international law, options available for self-defense after an attack
22:50of this sort.
22:51So, India's diplomatic abilities can easily manage that.
22:56I'm not going to say whether we will isolate or not, but the fallout for India is going to
23:04be limited in any response that we undertake, and that would perhaps be where diplomacy will
23:11come into play. It will be at the forefront, not in trying to resolve the issue, but to
23:17contain the fallout.
23:18Okay. I'm going to leave it there, Syed Akbaruddin, for giving us a sense of how the UN operates
23:24in such conflict situations, what India's options are, and really exposing in a way Pakistan's
23:31continuous attempt to deny and be deceitful about terror. I appreciate you joining me.
23:38Thank you so much, our former envoy to the United Nations.
23:42I want to just for a moment shift track, just to tell you that later in the show, I'll be
23:46joined by a widow of one of the victims of Baisaran, so look forward to that. I want to
23:51hear her speak out. But I want to turn, meanwhile, to the day's top political story, and that
23:56comes from a decision taken by the Narendra Modi government today at a cabinet meeting
24:01announcing that the census, the next census, will also be including a caste census. The
24:08government says that caste enumeration will be part of the census. For Rahul Gandhi, the
24:14Congress leader, who has made caste census the cornerstone of his Lok Sabha election campaign,
24:20this could be a vindication, or it could be Mr. Modi trying to steal the thunder of the Congress.
24:26Which is it? I'll be joined in a face-off in a moment, but first take a look at why this
24:32caste census could be a political game-changer.
24:37While India waited with bated breath on a big announcement coming in concerning the
24:42Pehelgam attacks, the government took everybody by surprise by making a massive announcement,
24:50government, but not on Pehelgam retaliation. The government has decided that caste census
24:57will take place along with the national census.
25:00The demand for a caste census blew up politically with the backdrop of the 2024 Lok Sabha elections,
25:26where the Congress raised the clarion call of Jitni Abadi Utna Hak. The government,
25:33while making the announcement today, stressed on what they deemed has been Congress's double-speak.
25:39The Congress, though, was quick to take credit, stressing they have already conducted the caste survey in Telangana and already proposed reservation based on it.
26:07Jairam Ramesh tweeted a letter from 2023 stating that the Congress President Malik Arjun Kharaget then had requested the Prime Minister to conduct a caste survey immediately.
26:19While the move will have tectonic political implications, the state of Bihar going into elections in less than six months will feel its
26:49maximum political impact. The Bihar chief minister, Nitish Kumar tweeted welcoming the move.
26:56The political minefield that this move exposes will require deft political maneuvering.
27:04Till now, the dream of Baba Sahib Ambedkar of a caste-less society has only but remained a dream and a mirage.
27:12The hard reality is that caste continues to play a huge role in governance and social equity and policy.
27:20And for that, will it be better to have real numbers or continue to operate blind?
27:26So is the caste census the political game changer that the Congress hopes it will be?
27:36Is a caste census desirable or not in the first instance?
27:40Is the caste count divisive as some call it or much needed?
27:43Joining me now, two special guests, Yogendra Yadav, co-founder Swaraj India, who's been a strong advocate of a caste census, joins me.
27:50Alok Bansal, director, India Foundation, is a critic of the caste census.
27:54Appreciate both of you joining us. I want to come to you, Yogendra Yadav.
27:57Do you believe that what we've seen today was an idea whose time has come since 1931?
28:02We haven't had a proper caste enumeration in this country when it comes to a census?
28:09Rajdeep, what we are witnessing today is a culmination of an idea whose time had come about 30 years ago.
28:16We have lived in denial. We have lived in an anomalous position of the kind that you don't see anywhere in the world.
28:23You give legal, affirmative action on the basis of caste, but you don't enumerate in the census.
28:30I mean, I don't know of any single country in the world which does something as weird as that.
28:35So we have ended that anomaly.
28:37In any case, in order to treat any disease, the first step is test, monitoring.
28:43You cannot eliminate caste. You cannot end caste in this country unless you acknowledge that it exists.
28:50Unless you monitor the inequalities that caste system leads to.
28:54Unless you then, based on evidence, devise policies that address it.
28:59So today is a very major day. It's a historic day.
29:03Yes, we always look at all historic decisions based on short-term political calculus, who did this, why, and so on.
29:11But in the long run, what stays is the sheer impact of something as major as that.
29:17And I think, as you rightly said, Rahul Gandhi and Congress would take the credit, deserve it.
29:24Because despite all the external and also possibly internal opposition, he stuck to it, forced it.
29:31And I think Modi government was really left with no option except to now concede it.
29:36So it is a vindication, certainly. And it's a positive development for the country.
29:41You're saying positive development. Before I come to Alok Mansal, just to push you for a moment, you're saying the positive development is finally that we will be, in a sense, able to know how the caste demographics of India are and therefore can frame policies accordingly.
29:59But there will be those who will say, once you have a caste census, it could then lead to demands for reservation that will spiral out of control.
30:08Rahul Gandhi, for example, today said that 50% can no longer be the cap as the Supreme Court has enunciated.
30:15We need to increase that cap. Will that not create fresh social friction?
30:20Rahul Gandhi, I always find this argument rather funny. This is like saying, let's not count the number of girls in this university.
30:29It seems to have increased, but let's not count it. Because just in case we count it, there would be demand for more girls in hostels.
30:36What would be your response? So what? I mean, those who say, let's not have a blood test, because just in case we discover that the patient is ill, we'll have to give medicine.
30:49Just in case we discover it's cancer, we'll have to operate. Yes, of course you'll have to do that. How is that a valid argument? I don't understand that at all.
30:58In fact, any sensible person anywhere in the world would say, if you look at any inequality, whether it is based on caste or based on gender or in some countries based on race,
31:09the very first thing that you do sensibly is to record, is to monitor the development, is to map it.
31:17And incidentally, there's a huge mistake, Rajdeep, when we think that caste census is only going to give you the number of the population size of each caste.
31:27No, that's not the most important thing of caste census. Caste census would give you a detailed breakup of educational, economic and social profile of each caste at each level,
31:40from the country to state down to Talika, Taluka down to every single village, which is exactly the kind of evidence you need.
31:47This is exactly the kind of evidence Supreme Court and the Indian judiciary has been demanding over the years.
31:53They've always said, yes, you can frame policies, but every policy should be based on evidence.
31:59And when someone says, all right, let's gather evidence, everyone jumps and says, no, no, no, no, don't gather evidence. It's a dangerous thing.
32:06I find it funny. Shouldn't you find that funny too?
32:09Anug Mansal, do you find it funny too? Since you've opposed the caste census, what's your biggest concern?
32:16See, firstly, I disagree with what Mr. Yadav says. When you're counting women, women and men are divided biologically.
32:24Race also can also be divided scientifically. Caste is an artificial entity which politicians like Mr. Yadav have reinforced and actually sustained in this country.
32:34Today, urban youth does not believe in caste. But when you do a caste census, you force him or her to choose a caste based identity.
32:42Now, this identity, which should have been obliterated, is being reinforced by people who are advocating caste census.
32:49And that is a problem. This is similar arguments which were put by Muslim League for having religion in census and which ultimately led to the division of India.
32:58Now, dividing people on the basis of caste. Today, do you think an urban college going youth believes in caste? No.
33:05There are inter-caste marriages taking place. But even when the children of those inter-caste marriages are forced to identify with the caste, you are creating a division.
33:14But Anupansal, if I may intervene, aren't you? I mean, it's a, you know, let's, where are we living? Caste is still a living reality in this country, across the country at every level.
33:25I mean, I can also show you classifieds with, say, wanting for a shatriya.
33:29Do your children believe in caste? No, no. It's not about my children.
33:32Do your children believe in caste? You marry them according to caste? No.
33:34Sir, 1.4 billion Indians, if I go through the classifieds, if I look at our politics, if I look at our social organizations, caste is a reality.
33:42Go to any part of rural India. Are we telling ourselves that caste identities no longer matter? Be honest with ourselves.
33:51Yeah, let's be honest. Today, urban population almost is 50% of India's population. It's no longer India of the villages where 80% population was in rural.
34:01Today, 50% population, bulk of them do not believe in caste. But you are forcing them to identify themselves by caste because of politicians who are actually looking at caste as a vote-gathering mechanism.
34:13So that is the problem. Tell me, your, mine, anybody's children, do they believe in caste? Would they marry according to caste? Will Mr. Yadav look for a caste-based girl for his son or a daughter? No.
34:24Then why are we insisting on this mechanism which should have actually gone lock, stock and barrel?
34:29Now, people who say caste-based identities are good, caste-based discrimination is bad, the fact is caste system is inherently discriminatory.
34:36It is a hierarchical system which creates discrimination. If you have to get rid of it, you cannot identify.
34:43And if, worst case scenario, if you have decided to go for a caste-based census, give people an option to say they don't believe in caste.
34:50Give them no caste as an option, which is not there. Today, government forms ask you for a caste, but don't give you an option to say, I don't have a caste. Why are you not giving that?
34:59Yogi Dr. Yadav, you are hearing this argument that basically it will only institutionalize and consolidate the caste hierarchical system in the country.
35:09Is the argument being made against the caste census?
35:12Rajdeep, I can't believe I'm hearing such arguments on national television. Let me clarify to Mr. Mansal, it's not merely my son or daughter.
35:21I actually happen to be someone who married outside my caste. Both my wife and I decided not to give our children any caste names.
35:29So it's not just the youth. You know, there were people before the youth as well, Mansal Saab, who did not believe in caste.
35:36And please do not peddle this lie on national television. It will look ridiculous, Mansal Saab, when you say these things, that people don't have an option of saying no caste.
35:44No caste. Please remember, probably you don't know how census is conducted. When someone comes to your house, please remember for the last 70 years in independent India, your language and your religion has always been asked to you.
35:59And Mr. Mansal, you always have an option to say no religion. You can certainly say that it's always been the case. Of course, when someone comes to your house to ask your caste, you would always have the option to say no caste. Thank you very much.
36:15So let's not spread these very elementary lies. It doesn't look good when we say things of this caste. The important thing. Remember, Mr. Mansal, let's not get into these. I mean, let's have a serious argument.
36:27If we just start peddling lies, it actually is not a good argument. Census always gives you the option. You can say atheism is my religion.
36:36You can say Marxism is my religion. You can say whatever. India is my religion. You always have that option. And the option has been exercised.
36:44Obviously, the same option will be exercised once caste census takes place. Obviously, when they come to speak to my children, my children will say, well, we do not have a caste.
36:54My father belongs to one caste. My mother belongs to another caste. And on that basis, my children will not be entitled to making any caste-based claims. That's all.
37:03So one, let's get rid of that. Number two, I'm very happy to discover that people like me have the power of inventing caste in this country, which did not obviously exist in the past or has probably disappeared.
37:16Mr. Mansal, all I can say is please welcome to this country. Please spend a week in urban India, in the busties of urban India, in ordinary households, and in the middle-class colonies of Delhi.
37:34I challenge you, Mr. Mansal, please let us take a bet today on national television. Come to any place where marriages are being negotiated.
37:45Yes, there are children who marry outside their caste. And yes, I hope my children, as in when they decide, if they do, won't take any of those castes.
37:56But let us not forget, Mr. Mansal, we live in a society where caste not only determines your life chances, your educational prospects, your career opportunities, it in about 75-80% cases also determines your life partner.
38:13And finally, Mr. Mansal, suppose that were not to be the case. Let us imagine that in this country, caste has ceased to matter.
38:21Your educational opportunities, your life chances have nothing to do with caste.
38:26In that case, Mr. Mansal, you should welcome the caste census because caste census will provide you if you are true.
38:33And if you are honest to your belief, caste census will provide the ultimate truth.
38:38If you are right, you will get the ultimate evidence to prove yourself. And if I'm right, I will get the evidence.
38:45So why don't we go for tests? Why are we disputing? We can debate about medicine.
38:50Why are we debating about blood tests? Why are we debating?
38:54No, no. Let Mr. Mansal intervene. I think the argument made by those who are advocating the caste census, Mr. Mansal, is that why run away from the reality of this country?
39:05In fact, we have reservations at the moment, often based on a 1931 census.
39:09Let it be on what is done in 2025. So there is hard evidence on the basis of which policy interventions take place.
39:16See, Rajdeep, let me come to what Mr. Yadav said.
39:20Firstly, the problem discussing with politicians is they actually pedalize in a very soft manner.
39:25I did not say that you invented caste. I only said you are reinforcing caste by doing a caste-based census.
39:31I never said that. Secondly, in the census, you have an option for saying no religion.
39:37You don't have an option for saying no language. Please understand.
39:40It's your presumption that when there will be a caste-based census, there will be no column for no caste.
39:45Today, in government jobs, there are so many places where you have to caste.
39:48You cannot say no caste. Please understand. There is a problem.
39:51So there is a problem. Today, according to, at least I know, all my friends, all my colleagues can get married with, their children are getting married outside caste.
40:01The point is that the urban youth is moving away from caste-based identity.
40:06But by bringing in this caste-based census, you are actually forcing them to identify themselves with a particular caste.
40:14You are seeing, when children of mixed marriages are born, they are invariably forced to take a caste sooner or later.
40:21You can see politicians. You can see politicians who are born of mixed marriages.
40:25Their son, Chirak Paswan, is identifying himself with a caste.
40:28If your logic was okay, I would have accepted it. It doesn't happen. Please understand.
40:33No, no, but Mr. Bansal, even in the absence of a caste census, they are doing it.
40:36You know, at least the caste census will provide some scientific basis for policy interventions like reservations.
40:42I mean, when communities demand reservations without evidence...
40:46The caste census will accentuate this problem.
40:48The caste census will accentuate this problem.
40:50And even if you do a census, at least don't release the report.
40:53At least have the results, reports kept under...
40:56Because there is no end to division.
40:58Today, you can division between 10 castes.
41:00Tomorrow, people would want to be divided into 100 castes.
41:03There are Brahmins who have got different gradations.
41:05There are actually Kshatriyas, Vaishyas. They have so many sub-gradations.
41:09There is no end to division.
41:11You can keep dividing the people and there will be no end to it.
41:14Can I, therefore, ask you, Yogendra Yadav, in conclusion,
41:17One of the fears is, and I come back to this, that let's assume, yes, we should have a caste census
41:22because you need a scientific enumeration of caste, done scientifically, and I emphasize the word scientifically.
41:28However, once it's done, there will be competing demands from different caste groups to increase the reservation pie.
41:35And, therefore, that will take reservations spiraling out of control.
41:40They will be used, as they have, by some as a political weapon.
41:43Why, therefore, open up the bottle, the caste bottle in a way that you will increase friction in society?
41:50I come back to it. That is the principle argument being made.
41:55Rajdeep, I want to understand where that principle argument is coming from, to go back to that example of the university.
42:02It's coming from, it's coming from, it's coming from Yogendra Yadav, state after state,
42:05where reservations are being pushed well over 60%, 70% and beyond.
42:10Rajdeep, so my question is, that clearly is coming from someone who does not belong to the category called SC, ST or OBC.
42:20That is clearly less than 20% of India's population.
42:23And every single evidence that we have about India is that this category, which is less than 20% of our population,
42:31happens to occupy about two-thirds or three-fourths of every single position of power in this country,
42:37except political power and except in those cases where there are formal reservations.
42:42So, number one, much of this fear is coming from a very privileged section of society.
42:47Clearly, Rajdeep, this cannot be the fear of those who have been kept away from education,
42:54those who have been denied opportunity in this country systematically.
42:58And just to go back to that question, Rajdeep, if you say, oh my God, if we count girls, we'll have to provide more hostels.
43:05But the answer is yes, sir, then provide more hostels.
43:08All this apprehension comes from those.
43:11And that's my point, Rajdeep.
43:13Actually, everyone knows what the caste census would reveal.
43:16We are opposing blood tests because we know what the blood tests would reveal.
43:20Everyone knows that the number of OBCs in this country would be substantially higher than their job quota.
43:32Everyone knows that once the census figures come, the educational and economic profile of OBCs in this country, of the SC and ST,
43:41will turn out to be dramatically worse than what the upper caste have, the leading Agra caste have in this country.
43:50Mr. Bansal knows it.
43:51There is a very sharp division in this country.
43:55The trouble is we don't want to acknowledge it.
43:58Once that comes, yes, we'll have to take remedial action.
44:01Yes, reservation can be one of those remedial actions.
44:04Yes, 50% ceiling will have to be abrogated.
44:07But yes, many other steps will also have to be taken.
44:11To say, let us not open our eyes to inequalities, lest we need to do something about it, is a very, very poor argument.
44:22Mr. Bansal, since that was a long comment given by Yogendra Yadav, you deserve a 30-second response.
44:27Do you see this as a political game-changer?
44:30It is actually no political game-changer. It is actually a very, very divisive mode.
44:35Baba Sahib Ambedkar, who was not from the trivialist society, wanted a caste-less society.
44:40This is a step which actually accentuates caste.
44:43It does not go towards obliteration of caste.
44:45The aim of the society should be obliteration of caste.
44:48People like Mr. Yadav wants to perpetuate caste.
44:51That's the problem.
44:52He is a politician and politicians want to perpetuate caste.
44:55That's the problem.
44:56Today, the youth of this country do not want caste.
44:59They want to create a caste-less society which people like him are preventing it from being created.
45:04Let me leave it there.
45:06I've heard two very clear, sharp viewpoints and that's always good to hear
45:10because I think this is an issue where there are two clear viewpoints emerging.
45:15But interestingly, politicians are all taking credit for it.
45:18Every political party.
45:20Rahul Gandhi is taking credit saying he's the one who pushed it for the last couple of years.
45:24Every Modi government minister is now calling it a historic decision taken by the Prime Minister.
45:30So, whether you and I believe, don't believe in the caste identity, our politicians certainly do.
45:36And that perhaps reflects the reality on the ground.
45:39Yogendra Yadav, Mr. Bansal, thank you so much for joining me here on the show tonight.
45:45Let's turn to tonight's ground report.
45:48The deadline for Pakistani nationals to leave India is now over.
45:52Authorities have started deporting Pakistani citizens who stayed on.
45:56Many of them have lived in India for years and were hoping for citizenship.
46:00Take a look at tonight's Get Real India story.
46:06Teary farewells at the Atari border.
46:10With the deadline for Pakistani nationals to leave India long over, deportations have begun.
46:18The Jammu and Kashmir police is rounding up Pakistani citizens
46:21and bringing them to the Atari border post in buses.
46:28The terror attack on tourists in Pahlgaam has cast a long shadow on the lives of ordinary people
46:34as India turns up the heat on Pakistan.
46:37I live in Pakistan with my daughter, and my daughter was passed by 2010.
46:44I was married for 15 years, I'm going to live here.
46:47I won't go here, someone's been left with my home, I won't go.
46:52Why would I go, why would I leave my children, I would never get here, I couldn't go here,
46:56I wouldn't have come here, I would have made a family here.
46:59I would have made a house, I'd be made a house.
47:01Many people who lived here for decades
47:30now face an uncertain life in a land now alien to them.
48:00Families are getting split.
48:07Some claim they have even voted in elections here.
48:14Some claim they have even voted in elections here.
48:21People facing deportation are hoping for relief.
48:28Some claim they have even voted in elections here.
48:33People facing deportation are hoping for relief, even if it comes at the last minute.
48:54Here at the Atari border, not only long queues of the people who want to go voluntarily has
49:01picked up pace, but also the deportation drive against the Pakistani nationals is going up
49:07in a big way.
49:08From Atari border, with camera person Ravi Khan, this is Asim Basi, India today.
49:13As often is the case, innocent citizens will suffer when the Pakistan terror state operates
49:21in the way it does.
49:22The question is, do people deserve collective punishment?
49:26Think about that.
49:27Our good news today's story comes from Karnataka's Belgavi, where a shepherd has cracked the UPSC.
49:34He is all set to become an IPS officer.
49:49Take a look.
49:50When the UPSC civil services examination results came last week, Bir Deva Done was tending to
49:56his goats in Belgam in Karnataka.
49:59Done, who hails from Yamage village in Maharashtra's Kolapur district, got All India rank 551
50:07and will join the Indian police service.
50:10Done believes that his goat, Mauli's blessings worked for him.
50:35The images of his celebration with his relatives and goats have been widely shared on social
50:44media.
50:45While he is flooded with messages from his village, Done is in no hurry to leave his goats.
50:50After graduating in civil engineering, he prepared for the UPSC exam for two years in Delhi.
50:51Done cleared the exam in his third attempt.
50:57With Deepak Suryavanshi, Bureau Report, India Today.
51:10These are the kind of stories that should make you smile and feel happy that India's breaking
51:17barriers and bridges and building bridges.
51:23Okay, I want to leave you though with our image of the day.
51:38West Bengal Chief Minister Mamata Banerjee inaugurating a Puri-like Jagannath Temple in
51:44Bengal's Diga.
51:45Several celebrities and prominent figures from West Bengal's music and film industries
51:50present at the event.
51:51The temple built at a cost of 250 crore rupees.
51:54Bengal is hoping that the Jagannath Temple in Diga will be part of the temple tour itinerary
52:01across the country's east coast.
52:03What Odisha did with Puri, Bengal hopes to do here with Diga.
52:08That grand temple is our image of the day.
52:13Thanks for watching.
52:14Stay well.
52:15Stay safe.
52:16Goodnight Shubratri.
52:17Jai Hind.
52:18Namaskar.