Should we just rip all the electronics and aerodynamic aids off of MotoGP bikes, or are the just-released 2027 rules for MotoGP a good move for the series and for racing in general? King of the Baggers doesn't have rider aids, so why does MotoGP and Superbike? Kevin Cameron and Mark Hoyer talk about rules in road racing and where the sport might be headed.
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SportsTranscript
00:00Welcome to the Psycho World Podcast. Welcome back, everybody. I'm here with Kevin Cameron, our technical editor. I'm Mark Hoyer, editor-in-chief.
00:08We're asking the question this week, are rules killing road racing? Are rules killing MotoGP?
00:15We want to talk about lots of different categories of racing, but we're focusing on MotoGP because the 2027 rules were released.
00:26They were.
00:27And we're curious, Kevin, what does it all mean? First off, like what's the basic outline of the rules or maybe we can go through and sort of give people the groundwork of what's up and then get into the details.
00:39Well, the current rules, the current rules have nothing against adding aerodynamic devices to your motorcycle, given the approval of the technical director.
00:53And there is also nothing against having variable ride height, as you will find on as an option on Harley's Pan America.
01:05And I think there's another make that's doing variable ride height as well on production bikes.
01:13The great thing about variable ride height is just as you would lower your street bike if you were going to run in a drag racing class,
01:23it puts an end to those pop-up wheelies that just destroy your elapsed time.
01:31And on the other hand, there are people who say, oh, bikes are looking like Formula One now.
01:38And I don't, I want to whine about it.
01:42Well, I can sympathize with that.
01:44I remember those bikes that were ridden by Phil Reed that had a nice big bubble that came right to the top of your helmet.
01:52And they had a certain look.
01:54Well, that look is past and it is also passé.
02:00Technology waits for no man or woman.
02:02So, another thing that's happened is that bikes, the present one liter formula, 61 cubic inches, allows these engines to make close to 300 horsepower.
02:22And that much horsepower is enough to drive a substantial aerodynamic array, winglets, whatever you like, mustaches, slotted airfoils, spoons, stegosaurus plates, through the resisting air.
02:42And their lap times are falling.
02:45This stuff works.
02:46Well, is it not kind of a self, I don't know if it's self-fulfilling, but they feed each other because without the aero, you're going to get wheel spin.
02:57Or wheelies.
02:58Yes.
02:58Or wheelies.
02:59And so, then you get aero and it mashes it down and then you can give it more power and drive it through the air faster.
03:08Absolutely true.
03:09Because in the past, and I'm talking about 20 years ago, they had to come up with wheelie control systems because engines is powerful.
03:20And at that time, they were maybe 220 to 240 horsepower, 2003 and so on.
03:28Coming off of corners, you would get these pop-up wheelies that would annihilate your drive just like they do your elapsed time if you're a drag racer.
03:39And so, they came up with various schemes to measure the height of the front suspension and to take the derivative of it or to measure the jerk or whatever you want to call it and predict that, yes, this motion is a wheelie in progress.
03:56We're going to retard the ignition.
03:59We're going to close down the butterflies and bring the front wheel back down so that control is maintained.
04:06Well, the problem with that, of course, is any sensible person would say, why can't I get a sort of reverse skyhook that will hold the front end down so that instead of having the anti-wheeling system give me a throttle cut that brings the front wheel down, drag racers all know that if you have to knock throttle in mid-strip, your run is toast.
04:31So, it was the same thing because, absolutely, road racing is just a series of corners connected by drag strips.
04:39Same business.
04:41So, what they've done now is they've started out with the little winglets, which provided a bit of downforce, and they found that that helped.
04:55It also helped at Circuit of the Americas near Austin, Texas, where there are undulations in the straightaway.
05:04And if you're going 200 miles an hour or better, front end gets eerily light.
05:12The people that drove the Porsche 917 called it a floaty feeling.
05:17And I've seen bikes get the front end up over the crest of hills and threaten to go over backwards, and I've talked to riders afterwards.
05:27They say, you go for the back brake, brings it right down.
05:31But again, it's slowing you down.
05:33The cure for the wheelie slows you down.
05:36So, they began to have mustaches and all these, their aerodynamics attached to the fork legs now.
05:48What this did was, it held the front end down in such a way that there were no anti-wheely power cuts.
05:57Lap times down, down, down.
05:59Well, you reminded me of a story when you said it's just a series of drag strips, you know, connected by corners.
06:09The great Terry Vance, highly successful drag racer.
06:14Yes, indeed.
06:15Vance and Hines, really great rider, obviously working with a very great technician in Byron Hines.
06:21Had a very brief road racing career that not that many people know about, because he always got the whole shot, and then it went bad at corner one.
06:31And he's the first guy to tell you.
06:35Anyways, yeah, it's a...
06:40I'm thinking about, like, Mugello.
06:46I'm thinking about, I think they, I think the record was Bender.
06:50It's 227 and a half miles per hour at Mugello.
06:53That's potting out.
06:55It's pretty solid.
06:57Yeah.
06:58So, that's one of the aim of the new rules is to...
07:02This is what Dorna, who are the TV license holders for the series,
07:08said that they were hoping to accomplish with new rules that they were telling us would come soon.
07:16And now they have come.
07:17Namely, they want to slow the action down a little bit.
07:21They didn't want to achieve some kind of revolution, such as certain spectator groups talk about.
07:29I want to give all complete control back to the rider.
07:33Manual spark advance.
07:34I want all that electronics ripped out of there.
07:39I don't want to see all that Formula One hardware hanging all over those beautiful motorcycles.
07:44So, their goals were modest, to slow things down a bit.
07:50So, what they did was, they've cut back displacement from 1,000 cc's to 850.
07:56Those of you who follow MotoGP know that the managers of the sport learned from their first reduction of displacement,
08:10which occurred for 2007, from 990 cc's down to 800.
08:18And what that provoked was an RPM race.
08:21And when the first test of the 2007 bikes occurred after the last race of 2006 at Valencia,
08:31the new bikes lapped more quickly than the existing larger displacement bikes.
08:39But riders also complained about rideability, right?
08:42Were they not having trouble?
08:44Well, the thing is, every time you go for more power, there's a good chance, a high likelihood,
08:52that you'll screw up the power band so that the rider will come in and say,
08:56I don't know, I'm sitting there in turn five and I'm just hanging below the power band.
09:01And these people are coming past me on both sides.
09:05So, and in fact, that's what happened to Honda in 2002, 2003.
09:13Ducati jumped in with a bunch of power.
09:16They were impressively fast.
09:19And the Honda engineers, or more likely the managers above them,
09:24the political people, said, go get them, boys.
09:29And they dumped in a bunch of power and made their motorcycles harder to ride.
09:33So, lap times got poorer for a while.
09:37So, it's all horribly complicated.
09:40But in the case of this reduction, from 1,000 cc's down to 850,
09:45they have specified a maximum bore of 75 millimeters,
09:50which means that the existing stroke of 48.5, just under two inches,
09:56will be retained with the same stroke.
10:00It's very likely that the same peak revs will occur,
10:04rather than immediately going to 20,000 or 21,000.
10:11So, that's an element in their planning.
10:17They have not restricted aerodynamics
10:20because they reasoned that if you have less power,
10:23you will be able to push only somewhat shrunken aerodynamic surfaces
10:29because it takes power to create lift.
10:33So, the creativity will be in balancing your lift or downforce
10:37with your available power.
10:40And then the cleverness will come out
10:41in the subtleties of that aero design.
10:47What kind of lap time can you get?
10:49Well, I remember reading that at one of the many Formula 1 formulas,
10:56cars were making around 800 horsepower,
10:59and they said 500 horsepower were going into the aero,
11:03and 300 horsepower were accelerating the car.
11:06So, it can really get quite out of shape that way,
11:15and it's much more moderate in MotoGP.
11:19Yes, it may look like Formula 1 to some people,
11:21but these itsy-bitsy little,
11:24they're like attaching small model airplanes
11:27to the front of your bicycle.
11:28They're not great big wings like they have on those cars
11:33and huge arrays of slotted air foils,
11:37although some of them look pretty similar.
11:40Yeah.
11:42Racing getting slower, what do you know?
11:45Well, we'll find out.
11:48When you see it.
11:49Yeah.
11:49I think what's encouraging is that they are doing something
11:55because we want to have human speeds.
12:00We don't mind the risk, but we like it to be safe.
12:04Manageable, yes, by humans.
12:06By humans.
12:07And one of the questions I have is,
12:10if you're Dorna and you're managing World Superbike and MotoGP,
12:13what happens, how slow can you make MotoGP?
12:18And can World Superbikes be faster than MotoGP bikes?
12:23What if World, is that bad for branding?
12:26Is that bad for branding?
12:27That could be a big eek.
12:29Or is that okay?
12:30So I'm curious if they're going to do something with Superbike
12:34that would alter that.
12:35And then I think, you know,
12:36you did a little bit of research on top speeds with various tracks.
12:39Maybe you can share that with us.
12:41But, for example, at Phillip Island,
12:45one of the tracks that both MotoGP and World Superbikes attend,
12:50World Superbike top speed record was 333 kilometers.
12:56And for MotoGP, 352.8.
13:02So there's a difference.
13:05And that suggests a difference in horsepower
13:09of, you know, divide the one top speed into the other
13:13and cube it,
13:15multiply it times itself, times itself.
13:19Gives you an idea of how much more horsepower must be involved.
13:23But, of course,
13:25race bikes don't operate at top speed very often.
13:29What they have to do is go around corners.
13:34And MotoGP bikes are on Michelin tires
13:37and World Superbikes are on Pirellis.
13:40And the design philosophy of those two tire companies
13:45are somewhat different.
13:48Pirelli has always stayed very close to
13:51a production frame of mind.
13:54And how can we make a product out of this
13:56that we can sell?
13:57Whereas Michelin,
13:59although they're moving toward that,
14:01traditionally they were basically trying to beat the world.
14:05And they got to be very good at it.
14:10But as to lap time differences,
14:13what I've seen is,
14:15looking in the 2023 issue of MotoCourse,
14:20which is a book that's now really heavy.
14:24So many beautiful photographs.
14:26I love that thing.
14:27But the lap times are between one and two seconds different.
14:32On a roughly minute and a half,
14:35a little more than a minute and a half
14:37is the usual lap time.
14:39On the five racetracks that they share.
14:43So to gain or lose one to two seconds,
14:53I think is going to take a big difference in regulations.
14:59So I'm not too worried that the Superbike guys
15:03will be prancing around with their arms in the air
15:05and shouting factionalist slogans.
15:10But you never know.
15:13It could be fun.
15:15So what do you think the expectation then
15:18is that we're on a trajectory like this
15:21and that between aerodevelopment,
15:23if we left everything alone,
15:24aerodevelopment and other things
15:26would put us up to here
15:27and we're kind of like nosing it.
15:30We're not going to see a precipitous drop.
15:32Or what do you think, Kevin?
15:34Yeah, that's what I think.
15:35I think it's possible, for example,
15:38that the engineers will say,
15:41oh, a 75-millimeter piston is X lighter
15:44than a 81-millimeter piston.
15:47And that means a lower stress
15:52on crankshaft bearings
15:54and on the connecting rod itself.
15:57So maybe we could kind of ease the revs up a little bit
16:01if we could get enough air in.
16:03Well, that's the question.
16:04And, you know, that was my question to you
16:06is that what would they do
16:09and would you not have a natural limitation
16:11by the bore size?
16:13I mean, you know, you'd have to be pretty tricky
16:14about getting more air through the same size hole.
16:18Because in the case of the bore,
16:20it's reduced to 75 millimeters,
16:24which means the valves must be smaller.
16:25And there are limits to how fast you can move air
16:31through ports,
16:32and they are set by the speed of sound.
16:36And although that sounds crazy to people
16:39because if you divide the area of the port
16:43into the area of the piston,
16:45you say the piston is moving at this speed,
16:47then the air moving through this
16:49has to be moving at the ratio of the two faster.
16:53But in fact, the first half of the stroke
16:58is just pulling a vacuum in the cylinder
17:01because the air is sort of there like,
17:04huh, oh, my ears are popping.
17:07And then only in the latter part of the stroke
17:11does it really accelerate
17:13and start ripping into the cylinder.
17:16And just as a P-47 Thunderbolt
17:20going 500 miles an hour
17:21probably has supersonic flow
17:24as the air tries to get around
17:26that great big jug.
17:29So in the intake port,
17:31there may be places where
17:33shocks are invisibly
17:35messing with your flow.
17:38So other people
17:41who actually know about these things
17:43rather than just speculate about them,
17:45as I must,
17:46aren't talking.
17:48Yeah.
17:51Well, that's all,
17:52that's interesting.
17:55You know, my,
17:56my base reaction
17:58to the reduction in fuel capacity
18:00was that,
18:02well, that's,
18:04you know,
18:04that's the 2020 part
18:05of the 2027 rules package
18:07is they,
18:08they kicked the fuel down
18:09and I thought,
18:10well,
18:11well, fuel is horsepower.
18:12You know,
18:13they're not going to be able
18:13to dump it in as hard,
18:15but then you pointed out,
18:17well, there's a,
18:18you know,
18:18there's a displacement reduction
18:19and then you talked about
18:20their relationship.
18:21Maybe share that.
18:23Yeah.
18:23They,
18:24they have
18:25essentially
18:27been generous
18:29by
18:30reducing
18:32the fuel quantity
18:34from 22 liters
18:35to
18:35to 20.
18:37And for the sprint,
18:3911 liters.
18:40The sprint is half the length
18:42of the GP.
18:44So they're throwing
18:45a little extra
18:45at the sprint
18:46so you can really
18:47hit it.
18:47And they're throwing
18:48a little extra
18:49at the 850s
18:50because
18:51they didn't reduce
18:53the fuel
18:53in proportion
18:54to the reduction
18:55of displacement,
18:56but actually
18:57less than that.
18:59So
18:59the fuel situation
19:01is
19:01they have
19:04to be careful,
19:06but
19:07not like
19:08the bad old days
19:09when
19:09they would,
19:12it was essentially
19:13would turn
19:13your engine
19:14into a 1977
19:15American car
19:16back in the era
19:18of stutter
19:18and stall.
19:19They were trying
19:20to run them
19:20so lean
19:21to make them
19:22finish races
19:23that
19:24they had
19:25dozens
19:28of fuel maps
19:29that they were
19:29constantly testing
19:30with.
19:31So
19:32bad old days
19:33not coming back
19:35in that respect.
19:36Right,
19:36you don't want
19:37a race
19:37determined
19:38by somebody
19:38running out
19:39of gas.
19:40Think how
19:41stupid
19:41that would be.
19:43But I had
19:44it won.
19:49So you're
19:50talking about
19:50aero
19:51and
19:51let's get
19:54a little bit
19:55more into
19:55that tail
19:56section.
19:57Oh,
19:58they've
19:58made a rule
19:59that the tail,
20:01which previously
20:01was
20:02not subject
20:04to any
20:05kind of
20:05oversight,
20:05but now
20:06it would be
20:07necessary to
20:08homologate it.
20:09And I don't
20:10know whether
20:10you'll homologate
20:11it for a year
20:12or whether
20:13you can bring
20:14them a new
20:14tail section
20:15and say,
20:15hey,
20:15how do you
20:16like it?
20:16We just
20:16finished it.
20:17Can we
20:17put it on?
20:19And
20:19I rather
20:22think not
20:22because
20:23people who
20:24are in
20:24charge
20:25don't like
20:25to be
20:26too generous.
20:27Yeah.
20:30But
20:30I think
20:32I'm
20:35pleased with
20:35these
20:36regulations
20:36because
20:37they've
20:37done
20:37what
20:38they
20:38said
20:39they
20:39were
20:40going
20:40to
20:40do,
20:40which
20:40is
20:41just
20:41to
20:41turn
20:41the
20:42volume
20:42down
20:42a bit.
20:44Well,
20:45we've
20:45been talking
20:45about
20:45top
20:46speed,
20:46but
20:46the
20:47other
20:47part
20:48of the
20:48race
20:49course
20:49is
20:49corner
20:49speed.
20:50You're
20:51having
20:51your
20:51turns
20:51and
20:52you're
20:52having
20:52your
20:53minimum
20:53corner
20:53speed.
20:54And
20:54when we
20:54test,
20:55when we
20:55go to
20:55a
20:55racetrack
20:56and
20:56we
20:56throw
20:57our
20:57V-box
20:58on
20:58and
20:58we
20:58do
20:58our
20:58lap
20:59times,
20:59we're
20:59always
21:00interested
21:00in
21:00the
21:01minimum
21:01corner
21:01speed
21:02because
21:02it's
21:03giving
21:03you
21:03an
21:03indication
21:04of
21:04the
21:04efficacy
21:04of
21:05the
21:05traction
21:05devices
21:06as
21:07they
21:07are.
21:09And
21:09obviously
21:11higher
21:12corner
21:12speed,
21:13better
21:13lap
21:14time,
21:14and
21:14if you
21:16pick
21:16up
21:16a
21:17fraction
21:18of
21:18a
21:18second
21:18in
21:1814
21:19turns,
21:20it
21:20suddenly
21:20adds
21:21up
21:21to
21:21something.
21:22Part
21:22of
21:22the
21:22cornering
21:23speed
21:24for
21:24MotoGP
21:25bikes,
21:25of course,
21:25is now
21:26that we're
21:26getting into
21:28this ground
21:28effects thing
21:29going on.
21:29They're
21:30talking about
21:30how the
21:31fairing,
21:31when you
21:32see the
21:32photos,
21:32it's
21:33impossible.
21:34The lean
21:35angle and
21:35the body
21:36position
21:36has
21:37evolved
21:38so
21:39dramatically
21:40that
21:41photographs
21:42of
21:43riders
21:43inside
21:43corner,
21:44they're
21:44laying
21:45on the
21:45ground.
21:46The
21:46bike
21:46is at
21:47an
21:47attitude
21:48that
21:48would
21:48have
21:48been
21:48a
21:49crash
21:50not
21:51that
21:51many
21:52years
21:52ago.
21:53Absolutely.
21:54And
21:54now the
21:55fairing
21:55is
21:56parallel
21:57to the
21:57ground
21:57and
21:58incredibly
21:58close
21:59and
21:59they're
21:59working
22:00on
22:00reduced
22:01pressure
22:01there,
22:02which
22:02is
22:02down
22:02force.
22:03Yes.
22:04And
22:04did they
22:05mention
22:05that in
22:06the
22:06rules at
22:06all?
22:07It
22:07is
22:08mentioned
22:08that,
22:08no.
22:10Anyone
22:10who's
22:11driven
22:11a van
22:12through
22:12a tunnel
22:12where you
22:13can get
22:13up close
22:14to the
22:14wall,
22:15you can
22:15feel
22:15and
22:17I don't
22:19know if
22:19anybody's,
22:20you know,
22:20you spend
22:20a lot of
22:21time in
22:21vans,
22:21obviously.
22:23Yes.
22:24Life in
22:24a submarine
22:25on the
22:25way to
22:26races.
22:26Got to
22:27make that
22:27trek to
22:27Daytona
22:28every year,
22:29et cetera,
22:29et cetera,
22:30life in
22:30a van.
22:30So you've
22:31got van
22:31experimentations
22:32that other
22:33people don't
22:34have.
22:34But yeah,
22:35it's remarkable.
22:36Just driving
22:37next to a
22:38big rig can
22:39have the
22:39same thing
22:40where you
22:40get pulled
22:41into the
22:42side of
22:42the rig.
22:43Try it on
22:44a motorcycle.
22:45Formula One
22:45cars have a
22:46Venturi form
22:47between the
22:48underside of
22:48the car and
22:49the pavement.
22:50and they
22:53have claimed
22:54in that
22:55series that
22:56they could
22:56race on
22:57the ceiling
22:57if they
22:58could stay
22:59above a
22:59certain
22:59minimum
23:00speed.
23:01And I'd
23:02love to
23:02see it
23:03because then
23:04you could
23:04make the
23:04racetrack out
23:05of glass
23:06and put the
23:07spectators on
23:08top so
23:09they could be
23:10in the
23:10corner looking
23:11down on
23:12their heroes.
23:13What could
23:14be better?
23:15I think
23:16it's a
23:16let's do
23:17it at
23:17Qatar.
23:17That low
23:23pressure there
23:24I think
23:26in ordinary
23:28everyday human
23:29life we're
23:29not too
23:30familiar with
23:31all this
23:32aerodynamics
23:33business but
23:34for example
23:35the wing
23:36loading
23:36the amount
23:38of weight
23:39carried by
23:40each square
23:40foot of
23:41the wing
23:42of a
23:43World War
23:44II
23:44Japanese
23:45Zero
23:45Mitsubishi
23:46is the
23:46manufacturer
23:47was 24
23:48pounds
23:49whereas the
23:50wing loading
23:50of the
23:51B-29
23:51on the
23:53other side
23:53was
23:5569
23:57pounds
23:58and the
23:59notion of
24:00one square
24:01foot being
24:02able to
24:02carry 69
24:03pounds just
24:04like a
24:05waiter carrying
24:06a tray of
24:07cocktails
24:08it's outside
24:11my experience
24:12and so
24:15they get
24:16these guys
24:16to come
24:17in and
24:18work up
24:20the
24:20aerodynamics
24:21and there's
24:21nothing there
24:22that is
24:23futuristic
24:24or
24:25I mean
24:28all that
24:29jet plane
24:30styling
24:31that started
24:32in the
24:33early
24:3321st
24:35century
24:35at the
24:36European
24:36shows
24:37sharp
24:37points
24:38sharp
24:39edges
24:39zigzags
24:40phony
24:41intakes
24:42that is
24:43sales
24:44and promotion
24:45when you
24:46see the
24:46bikes show
24:47up
24:47MotoGP
24:48bikes show
24:49up for
24:49the first
24:50pre-season
24:51test
24:51they're in
24:52plain black
24:53many of
24:53them
24:53and they're
24:54smoothly
24:55rounded
24:56like a
24:57British
24:57hawker
24:58hunter
24:58well
24:59subsonic
25:00you know
25:00like
25:01all the
25:02styling was
25:03supersonic
25:03everything was
25:04like oh
25:04we're gonna
25:05make it look
25:05like an
25:06f-22
25:06raptor
25:07well we're
25:09not going
25:09that fast
25:10you know
25:10as we've
25:11discussed
25:11previously
25:12in the
25:12books episode
25:13you know
25:14there's
25:14uh
25:14Tony
25:15Stefanelli
25:15who worked
25:16at Buell
25:16also had
25:17a you know
25:17a career
25:18designing
25:19wings
25:20in uh
25:21I believe
25:21it was
25:22IndyCar
25:22and he did
25:23it with a
25:23book from
25:24the 30s
25:24it was a
25:25subsonic
25:25study
25:26and it
25:27was all
25:27the NACA
25:28profiles
25:29and they
25:30did they
25:30just went
25:31through and
25:31said oh
25:32this profile
25:32does this
25:33and he was
25:33just like
25:33reads this
25:34book
25:34and puts
25:35it on a
25:36race car
25:36and you
25:37know
25:37obviously
25:37applying his
25:38engineering
25:39and intelligence
25:39to it
25:40and making
25:40it work
25:40on a
25:41car
25:41but um
25:42subsonic
25:43roundish
25:45yes indeed
25:47organic
25:49very nice
25:50so cornering
25:51speeds may
25:52may not
25:53drop
25:53I mean
25:54in fact
25:54we might
25:55no they
25:56won't
25:56because
25:57Michelin
25:58will come
25:58up with
25:58goodies
25:59Pirelli
26:00will come
26:01up with
26:01goodies
26:01and
26:02there has
26:04been so
26:04much
26:05progress
26:05in tires
26:06have a
26:07look
26:07at
26:08race
26:09photos
26:09from the
26:1060s
26:1070s
26:1180s
26:11and compare
26:12them with
26:13the present
26:13day
26:13it's just
26:14one thing
26:16of course
26:17is those
26:17old time
26:17tracks were
26:18bumpier
26:18and if
26:20you're
26:20hopping from
26:21crest to
26:22crest
26:22the grip
26:23that you
26:23have
26:23is only
26:24occurs
26:25during the
26:25short
26:26periods of
26:26time when
26:27the tire
26:27is touching
26:28the pavement
26:28and the
26:31rest of
26:31the time
26:31you're
26:31going
26:32sideways
26:32so
26:34today we
26:37have
26:37notionally
26:39smoother
26:39tracks
26:40we have
26:41chassis
26:42with lateral
26:43flexibility
26:44as we
26:46saw when
26:47Matt
26:49Oxley
26:49displayed
26:51the
26:51wonderful
26:52photograph
26:53that he
26:53made I
26:54think at
26:54Harith
26:55that showed
26:57a Ducati
26:57with the
26:58upper right
26:58streamlining
26:59removed
27:00and you
27:01could see
27:02that the
27:02engine
27:02hangers
27:03it's just
27:06a thin
27:07sheet
27:08steel
27:08piece
27:09attached
27:10to the
27:10frame
27:10in two
27:11places
27:11and attached
27:12somewhere
27:13around
27:13the cylinder
27:15base
27:15at the
27:17bottom
27:17and it
27:18has no
27:18lateral
27:19stiffness
27:20whatsoever
27:21well
27:22why didn't
27:23they do
27:23it years
27:24before
27:24the reason
27:25I suspect
27:26I hope
27:28people
27:28will
27:29write
27:29in
27:29and
27:29complain
27:30what
27:31nonsense
27:31they do
27:33they just
27:34write in
27:34a box
27:35yes
27:35they just
27:36write in
27:36a box
27:37we'll
27:38complain
27:38but
27:40I feel
27:41that
27:42the reason
27:43that just
27:43adding lateral
27:44flexibility
27:45hasn't done
27:45the job
27:46is because
27:46it's so
27:47easy
27:47if you
27:48make the
27:48chassis
27:49flexible
27:49to cause
27:50it to
27:51become
27:51a self
27:52steering
27:53motorcycle
27:53that as
27:54the chassis
27:54flexes
27:55the wheels
27:56are deviating
27:57from the
27:59rider's
27:59intention
28:00yes
28:01well you
28:02feel that
28:03you know
28:03you feel
28:03that
28:03between
28:04the difference
28:04between
28:05you know
28:05I had a
28:061937
28:06Velocet
28:07KSS
28:08girder fork
28:10and a
28:12rigid chassis
28:13and
28:14I also
28:15had a
28:16have
28:18a
28:181954
28:19Velocet
28:20MSS
28:20first year
28:21of the
28:21swinging arm
28:22on the
28:22500
28:22and
28:24let me
28:25tell you
28:26we were
28:27suspicious
28:27of swinging
28:28arms
28:28I wasn't
28:29there
28:29but we
28:30were
28:30definitely
28:30if you
28:31read back
28:31people were
28:32suspicious
28:33of swinging
28:33arms
28:34because
28:35you were
28:35disconnecting
28:36the axle
28:37from the
28:38steering head
28:39and on a
28:40smooth road
28:41riding a
28:42KSS
28:42was
28:4486%
28:46more
28:46satisfying
28:47because
28:48the steering
28:49head
28:49relationship
28:50to the
28:51rear axle
28:51was
28:52relatively
28:53unfailing
28:54you didn't
28:54really
28:54you know
28:55it was a
28:55good running
28:56350
28:56you didn't
28:57have enough
28:57power
28:58to torque
28:59to twist
29:00and it
29:01felt great
29:02and then you
29:02get on
29:03and an MSS
29:03like a
29:04the Velocet
29:04swing arm
29:05frame is a
29:06pretty good
29:07handling chassis
29:08for that
29:08day
29:08it's not
29:09it's you know
29:10it's not a
29:10feather bed
29:11but it's a
29:11pretty good
29:11handling chassis
29:12yeah
29:13and
29:14your level
29:16of trust
29:17between what
29:18you're doing
29:18at the
29:18handlebar
29:19and what's
29:20happening
29:20at the
29:20axle
29:20is significantly
29:21reduced
29:22yeah
29:23and it's
29:23it's
29:24it's
29:24you know
29:25you're not
29:25and that's why
29:26you're not
29:27controlling it
29:28in a nice way
29:29you're getting
29:29things to happen
29:30this way
29:30and you're
29:31getting like
29:31automatic
29:32experience
29:33going elsewhere
29:35bad feelings
29:36it's expressing
29:37its own opinion
29:38yeah
29:39rather like a
29:40horse
29:41well
29:42the old
29:44timers used
29:45to say
29:45nothing steers
29:46like a
29:46rigid
29:47and then in
29:481935
29:49here came
29:49Moto Guzzi
29:50they won
29:52the senior
29:52TT
29:52end of the
29:54world
29:55the end
29:56of sport
29:56but
29:57immediately
29:59afterward
29:59Joe Craig
30:01the head
30:02of racing
30:02at Norton
30:03said
30:03in my
30:05opinion
30:06that lap
30:07time
30:07that they
30:07achieved
30:08could not
30:08have been
30:09achieved
30:09with a
30:09rigid
30:10chassis
30:10therefore
30:12the future
30:13will be
30:13rear suspension
30:14so
30:16the idea
30:18of making
30:18the motorcycle
30:19laterally
30:20flexible
30:20is that
30:21when the
30:21motorcycle
30:21is leaned
30:22over at
30:23a 60
30:23degree angle
30:24the bump
30:25that you
30:26hit
30:26is not
30:28in alignment
30:29with the
30:29motion of
30:30the suspension
30:31the suspension
30:33in order to
30:33absorb the
30:34bump
30:34completely
30:35would have
30:35to move
30:36twice as
30:37far as
30:38the height
30:39of the
30:39bump
30:39not going
30:40to happen
30:41particularly
30:42when the
30:43suspension
30:43is already
30:44compressed
30:44by cornering
30:46forces
30:46so
30:47the move
30:50was to
30:51build in
30:51lateral
30:52flexibility
30:52and they
30:55started
30:55small
30:56and I
30:57sort of
30:58heard
30:59the opening
31:00artillery
31:02rounds
31:03at
31:03the
31:04Australian
31:05GP
31:06in
31:0793
31:08when
31:10after
31:10in the
31:11post
31:12practice
31:12press
31:13conference
31:13Wayne
31:14Rainey
31:15said
31:15we have
31:15chatter
31:16we have
31:16hop
31:17and we
31:18have
31:18skating
31:18and we
31:19don't
31:20know
31:20what to
31:20do
31:21about
31:21it
31:21because
31:22they
31:23made
31:23their
31:23motorcycle
31:24more
31:24rigid
31:25yet
31:26again
31:26and
31:28suddenly
31:28it was
31:28too
31:29rigid
31:29so now
31:31things are
31:32going the
31:32other way
31:32and
31:34I think
31:35that
31:36Ducati
31:38have probably
31:38done the
31:39work
31:39to find
31:41out how
31:41this
31:42chassis
31:43has to
31:44be shaped
31:44so that
31:45it can
31:45move
31:46laterally
31:47without
31:48any
31:48twisting
31:49or other
31:50self-steering
31:50action
31:51but I
31:52don't know
31:52that
31:53yeah
31:53we've seen
31:54this for a
31:54while
31:54but I
31:55mean
31:55Ducati
31:55I think
31:56you know
31:56let's see
31:57they had
31:58the
31:58the
31:59you know
32:01tubular
32:02steel
32:02chassis
32:02the
32:03trellis
32:04yeah
32:04the
32:04trellis
32:05and then
32:05much
32:05beloved
32:06right
32:07and then
32:08they
32:08they said
32:09no we're
32:10putting this
32:10big triangular
32:11stiff thing
32:12on top
32:13of it
32:14and
32:14the black
32:15pyramid
32:16black
32:17pyramid
32:17not as
32:19good
32:20carbon
32:21fiber
32:21and Casey
32:23Stoner
32:23said
32:23on that
32:24thing
32:25said
32:26you're
32:26going
32:27through
32:27the
32:27corner
32:27same
32:29variables
32:29as the
32:30previous
32:31lap
32:31and we
32:31verified
32:32this
32:32over
32:32and again
32:33by looking
32:34at the
32:34data
32:34but this
32:37time
32:37you're sliding
32:38backwards in
32:39the gravel
32:39and your
32:40face shield
32:41is acting
32:42like
32:42an earth
32:43scraper
32:44and your
32:45face is
32:45full of
32:46gravel
32:46so
32:48I did that
32:49at Catalonia
32:49on a
32:49Kawasaki
32:50hey
32:51hey
32:52peace with
32:53honor
32:53yep
32:54so
32:55this is
32:57a
32:58this is
32:58a
32:58very
32:59practical
33:02sport
33:03it doesn't
33:04advance
33:04by theory
33:06well you're
33:07talking about
33:07a rider
33:08as well
33:08Casey
33:08Stoner
33:09I forget
33:10which engineer
33:11or you know
33:13management
33:13type was
33:14working with
33:15him but
33:15he would
33:16say
33:16you know
33:17most riders
33:18are really
33:18repeatable
33:19you know
33:19they go
33:19through
33:20and they
33:20go through
33:21the corner
33:21and you
33:22know
33:22they have
33:22the gear
33:23and Casey
33:24Stoner goes
33:25through at
33:25the same
33:26RPM
33:26not just a
33:29little bit
33:29the same
33:30but the
33:30same
33:31like
33:31slice the
33:32track
33:33and it's
33:33right there
33:34every lap
33:35yeah
33:35and so you're
33:36talking about
33:36a guy
33:36who's
33:37who
33:37you know
33:38was eminently
33:39repeatable
33:40and very
33:41much the
33:41alien
33:42supernatural
33:42power
33:43type
33:43person
33:44getting
33:45hucked off
33:45by something
33:46that was
33:47like a
33:48little bit
33:48head scratching
33:49and you
33:49know that's
33:49not what
33:50you want
33:50right
33:50and the
33:51reason
33:52the reason
33:53that they
33:53went to
33:53the black
33:54pyramid
33:54which was
33:55wonderfully
33:55rigid
33:56thanks to
33:57being carbon
33:57fiber
33:58is that
34:00with the
34:02trellis frame
34:03what we saw
34:04at the time
34:05was weave
34:06the motorcycle
34:07doing that
34:09two to three
34:10cycles per
34:11second
34:11oscillation
34:13that riders
34:13now call
34:14pumping
34:14and Casey
34:17said on
34:18that thing
34:18he said
34:21you'd be
34:23in mid
34:23corner
34:24and it
34:24would just
34:24start that
34:25pumping
34:25and it
34:27would limit
34:27what you
34:28could do
34:29with it
34:30and so
34:32they immediately
34:33went to the
34:34other extreme
34:35and
34:36over
34:38several years
34:40following that
34:41it took
34:41them
34:41well it
34:42took nearly
34:43a decade
34:43for them
34:44to get
34:45back
34:45competitive
34:46it was
34:48almost as
34:49though
34:49the people
34:50at Ducati
34:51were saying
34:51okay the
34:52Hondas are
34:53winning races
34:54by breaking
34:55late and
34:56very violently
34:57coming in
34:57on the
34:58front wheel
34:58and then
34:59lift and
35:00leave
35:00that's what
35:02we're going
35:02to do
35:03except that
35:04how are you
35:06going to
35:06beat somebody
35:07else with
35:07their
35:08philosophy
35:10which they've
35:11been practicing
35:12a lot longer
35:13than you
35:13have
35:13and their
35:14rider
35:14who was
35:15really good
35:16at it
35:17Dovizioso
35:19kept saying
35:20to them
35:20we need
35:22more apex
35:23speed
35:23and they
35:24finally took
35:25to saying
35:26to him
35:26what we
35:27want you
35:28to do
35:28is to
35:28be brave
35:29you say
35:31that you
35:32feel at
35:32risk
35:33going at
35:34these apex
35:35speeds
35:36just be
35:37brave
35:38and so
35:39they had
35:41a compromise
35:41they brought
35:42in a
35:43whole
35:44busload
35:45of
35:45wonderful
35:46talented
35:47young
35:48riders
35:48fresh
35:49from
35:49Moto2
35:50and now
35:51they have
35:52they generally
35:55finish the
35:56top three
35:57to five
35:58bikes
35:58are all
35:59Ducatis
35:59this is
36:01taking turns
36:04people are
36:04already saying
36:05oh I'm not
36:06going to watch
36:06that it's all
36:07Ducatis
36:08wait a minute
36:09these last
36:10two races
36:10were wonderful
36:11and there's
36:12all kinds
36:12of great
36:13stuff going
36:13on up
36:14front where
36:14the racing
36:15is happening
36:16yeah I think
36:16you know
36:17getting back
36:17to the
36:18getting back
36:19to the
36:20topic
36:20it's
36:21the apex
36:24speed topic
36:24yeah
36:25well no
36:26getting back
36:26to our
36:28rules killing
36:28racing
36:29oh sure
36:30yeah
36:30no
36:31I mean
36:31no I agree
36:32I think
36:33you have to
36:33you have to
36:34manage them
36:35well
36:35you know
36:37you get
36:37curious about
36:38the difference
36:39between something
36:39like baggers
36:40and MotoGP
36:41and obviously
36:41much you know
36:42a very different
36:44different technical
36:45basis
36:46but I think
36:47one of the charms
36:48of bagger racing
36:49is that they don't
36:50have electronics
36:51you know
36:51they don't have
36:52rider aids
36:52they certainly
36:53do have electronics
36:54but they don't
36:54have rider aids
36:55they don't have
36:55TC and they
36:56don't have
36:56anti-wheelie
36:57and it's just
36:58like come on
36:59man why can't
37:00we do that
37:00in MotoGP
37:01why can't we
37:02yeah
37:03like what I
37:03think how
37:04you know
37:05because
37:07what would
37:09that do
37:10honestly
37:11what do you
37:11think that
37:12would do
37:12be a man
37:13join the
37:14Navy
37:14learn to
37:15fly
37:15and then
37:16have them
37:17tell you
37:17after you've
37:18learned to
37:18pick up the
37:19third wire
37:19have them
37:20tell you
37:21oh we're
37:21going to
37:22turn off
37:22the auto
37:23throttle
37:23now
37:24and we're
37:24going to
37:25turn off
37:25all the
37:25other pilot
37:27aids
37:27and now
37:28let's see
37:29how well
37:29you do
37:30sir
37:32could you
37:34repeat that
37:35you know
37:37it would
37:37just be
37:38ridiculous
37:38because
37:40the
37:43electronics
37:43have
37:43developed
37:44in step
37:45with the
37:45fantastic
37:46performance
37:47of both
37:47aircraft
37:48and
37:49motorcycles
37:49the idea
37:52of digital
37:53flight control
37:53which is
37:54what all
37:55of these
37:55electronic
37:56devices
37:57have descended
37:58from
37:58was originally
38:00a big
38:01argument
38:01within the
38:02Apollo
38:02program
38:03oh we've
38:04always used
38:05analog patches
38:06there we
38:07come up with
38:08a little
38:08problem that
38:09human reflexes
38:10can't quite
38:10handle
38:11we'll just
38:11lick them
38:13and stick
38:13them
38:14and after
38:16a while
38:16you've got
38:17a tall
38:18pile of
38:19these patches
38:19and it's
38:20kind of like
38:21being an
38:22old sickly
38:22person who
38:23takes 27
38:24medications
38:25do you think
38:26those medications
38:26might interfere
38:28with each
38:28other
38:28so
38:30there was
38:31a group
38:32within NASA
38:32that said
38:33we've got
38:34to unify
38:35this
38:36have
38:37everything
38:37handled
38:38from a
38:38single
38:39computer
38:39that is
38:41running
38:41software
38:43designed
38:43to fly
38:44this
38:44mission
38:45and
38:47it's
38:48evidently
38:49true
38:50that the
38:50space shuttle
38:51was never
38:52landed by
38:52a human
38:53they trained
38:54to be able
38:55to do it
38:56but it
38:57was landed
38:57by automated
38:59systems
39:00because it's
39:01extremely
39:01difficult
39:02that's what
39:04you find
39:04when you
39:05read about
39:05it
39:05so
39:06I feel
39:08that
39:08you could
39:10you could
39:10perfectly
39:11well have
39:12a kind
39:13of racing
39:13that many
39:14people will
39:14enjoy
39:15that would
39:15have no
39:15electronics
39:16and right
39:16now it's
39:17baggers
39:17it's
39:18it's
39:19lovely
39:19racing
39:20you get
39:20to watch
39:21and see
39:21things that
39:23are subtleties
39:24in other
39:24classes
39:25that become
39:26big
39:26obvious
39:27well that
39:28thing's
39:29far out
39:29of control
39:30and yet
39:31he didn't
39:31tip over
39:32and people
39:34love that
39:35because it's
39:36dramatic
39:37and the
39:39rider
39:39when
39:39when he
39:41does
39:41overcome
39:42all
39:44opponents
39:44is
39:45gets all
39:47the credit
39:48but I
39:50think
39:50someone
39:52who's
39:52who's
39:53trying to
39:53land
39:54a jet
39:55aircraft
39:56on a
39:56carrier
39:56a few
39:58knots
39:58above
39:59stall
39:59speed
39:59and do
40:01it right
40:01every time
40:02needs
40:04all the
40:04help he
40:05can get
40:05it's
40:07nice
40:07you would
40:07have a
40:07I mean
40:08the baggers
40:09are making
40:09a tremendous
40:09amount
40:10of power
40:10but they're
40:11also very
40:12big
40:13and you know
40:15they're going to
40:15have a certain
40:16level of torque
40:16curve
40:17they have
40:17their RPM
40:18restrictions
40:18they have
40:19their things
40:19that are
40:20controlling
40:20the output
40:21and so
40:22if you took
40:23electronics
40:23if you
40:24if you
40:24remove those
40:25rules
40:25and just
40:25said hey
40:26you know
40:26what fellas
40:27it's an
40:27850
40:28have at it
40:29do whatever
40:29you want
40:30make the
40:30pistons as
40:31big as
40:31you can
40:31you know
40:32make big
40:32as you
40:32want
40:33do whatever
40:3318 valves
40:35you have
40:35at it
40:36tear it
40:36up
40:36and
40:37what you're
40:39going to
40:39if you had
40:42no electronics
40:43then you
40:44can't have
40:45you can't
40:46have the peak
40:47power production
40:47that you're
40:48getting
40:48because
40:48they're
40:50smoothing
40:50rideable
40:51well they're
40:51controlling the
40:52torque curve
40:53right now
40:53that's what
40:53they're doing
40:54it is a
40:56virtual torque
40:57curve
40:57the actual
40:58torque curve
40:59on the
40:59dyno may
41:00go up
41:00and peak
41:01and have
41:02a dip
41:02and go
41:03up and
41:03then drop
41:04abruptly
41:05but most
41:07riding takes
41:08place on
41:09much less
41:10than full
41:10throttle
41:11which means
41:11that you
41:13can simulate
41:14a smooth
41:15torque curve
41:16by having
41:17by conceptually
41:20turning the
41:21throttle
41:21into a
41:22torque
41:23request
41:23the rider
41:25is saying
41:25I want
41:26this torque
41:27the ECU
41:28then says
41:29oh I can
41:29get that
41:30for you
41:30by doing
41:31the following
41:32and it
41:33does so
41:34and as
41:34the engine
41:35RPM rises
41:36as you
41:36come off
41:37a corner
41:37and here
41:38comes the
41:39spike
41:39and the
41:40torque
41:40curve
41:40and you're
41:40about to
41:41be sent
41:43into the
41:43gravel
41:44the little
41:45butterfly
41:45just closes
41:46down
41:46to keep
41:47the growth
41:48in torque
41:48smooth
41:49and continuous
41:51much like
41:52the present
41:53day
41:54street bikes
41:55that have
41:56this Euro
41:565 torque
41:57curve
41:57which really
41:58should be
41:59called a
41:59Mesa
42:00because it's
42:01flat like
42:02a table
42:02everybody
42:04goes better
42:05with that
42:05I go back
42:06to the
42:07500 era
42:07and I think
42:08about all
42:09the stories
42:10about anticipating
42:11this rapid
42:15rise
42:16you know
42:16in 100
42:17he's
42:18turning the
42:19throttle
42:19off
42:19and the
42:20bike
42:20is
42:20accelerating
42:22right
42:22he's
42:23you know
42:23he is
42:24trying to
42:24artificially
42:25control
42:26the torque
42:26curve
42:26so there's
42:27a lot
42:27going on
42:28on the
42:28motorcycle
42:28and the
42:29amount
42:29of power
42:30that
42:30MotoGP
42:30is making
42:31I mean
42:32if you took
42:32if you took
42:33electronics
42:33away
42:34you would
42:34have to
42:35build
42:35the engine
42:36design the
42:37engine
42:37in a
42:37completely
42:37different
42:38way
42:38and
42:40would that
42:41be better
42:42in dirt
42:43track
42:43in dirt
42:44track
42:45people
42:45thought
42:46okay
42:47my buddy
42:48goes to
42:49Bonneville
42:49and his
42:50cams don't
42:50look anything
42:51like what
42:51we're using
42:52I'm going
42:53to try
42:53it
42:53and you
42:54put those
42:55cams on
42:55and you
42:57find that
42:57you've got
42:58this peaky
42:59torque
42:59you've got
43:00nothing
43:01nothing
43:01and you
43:04can't
43:04control
43:05wheel spin
43:05if you
43:07have a
43:08steeply
43:08rising
43:09torque
43:09so what
43:11dirt trackers
43:12did about
43:12that was
43:13they went
43:13they
43:14shortened
43:15the cam
43:15timing
43:16and they
43:16increased
43:17the lift
43:17and that
43:18is exactly
43:19what's going
43:20on in
43:21these
43:21recent
43:22parallel
43:23twin
43:23street
43:25bikes
43:25that are
43:26so nice
43:26to ride
43:27they're
43:28shortening
43:29the timing
43:29they're
43:30taking away
43:30the overlap
43:31that causes
43:33a lot of
43:33UHC
43:34emissions
43:35shortening
43:36the timing
43:36increasing
43:37the lift
43:37and then
43:38a lot
43:38of them
43:39have
43:39finger
43:40followers
43:40because
43:41short
43:42timing
43:42and high
43:42lift
43:43means
43:43rapid
43:44valve
43:44acceleration
43:45so you
43:45have to
43:46take out
43:46any excess
43:47weight
43:47that you
43:49can
43:49so
43:50there's
43:52another
43:52example
43:53of how
43:54racing
43:54has
43:55assisted
43:56production
43:58bike
43:58design
43:58because in
43:59this case
43:59the ability
44:01to operate
44:02the valves
44:02at very
44:02high
44:03accelerations
44:03originally
44:04developed
44:05in racing
44:05but now
44:06there's a
44:06need for
44:07it in
44:07production
44:07bikes
44:08and it
44:09has to
44:09be
44:09reliable
44:10too
44:10just
44:13dandy
44:13in my
44:14opinion
44:14love that
44:15stuff
44:16yeah
44:16so overall
44:182027
44:19rules seem
44:20like a
44:20good thing
44:21yeah
44:22because I
44:24would have
44:24to agree
44:25that going
44:26220 miles
44:27an hour
44:28it's an
44:29exciting
44:29number
44:29and the
44:30things look
44:30like they're
44:31going so
44:32fast
44:32but
44:34are we
44:35going to
44:36go 300
44:36miles an
44:37hour next
44:37it seems
44:39like it's
44:40reasonable to
44:41say we'll
44:41just turn it
44:42down a little
44:42bit
44:42yep
44:43that's what
44:44they've done
44:45well let us
44:47know in the
44:47comments what
44:48you think of
44:48motorcycle road
44:50racing rules
44:50rules in
44:51general in
44:52racing what
44:52would your
44:53solution be
44:54to slow
44:55us down
44:57a little
44:57bit
44:57yeah I
44:59mean it's
45:00it's such
45:02a different
45:02different
45:04expression than
45:05it has been
45:06in the
45:06past you
45:07know
45:07tire
45:09manufacturers
45:10at war
45:10with each
45:11other
45:11overnighting
45:12like oh
45:13the temperature
45:13tomorrow is
45:14going to be
45:14three degrees
45:15warmer call
45:15the factory
45:16make the
45:17tires with
45:18the different
45:18recipe overnight
45:19them to the
45:20track and
45:20have them
45:21ready for
45:21racing in
45:22the morning
45:22and not
45:23that you
45:24know Michelin
45:25or Pirelli
45:25isn't doing
45:26that now
45:26in some way
45:27but they're
45:29not doing it
45:29versus each
45:30other just
45:31all the
45:31different ways
45:31of controlling
45:32what's happening
45:33on the track
45:34is always
45:35interesting and
45:36it's always a
45:36management process
45:37you know
45:38yep
45:39well thanks for
45:43listening like
45:44comment subscribe
45:45etc definitely
45:46want to see you
45:47down in the
45:47comments we
45:48love reading
45:48them and
45:49we will
45:51catch you
45:51on the
45:52next one
45:52thank you
45:53for listening
45:53yes
45:54thank you
45:56thank you
45:57for listening
45:58to the