On "Forbes Newsroom," Villanova Prof. Massimo Faggioli discussed the Conclave that will occur in the Vatican to choose a new Pope after the passing of Pope Francis.
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00:00Hi, everyone. I'm Maggie McGrath, Senior Editor at Forbes. Pope Francis died on Monday at the age
00:09of 88. He now rests in state in St. Peter's Basilica before his funeral, which is scheduled
00:16to happen on Saturday. After Saturday, the College of Cardinals will meet to choose his successor.
00:23There's a lot to talk about, and we are so thrilled to have our next guest with us. He
00:28is Massimo Fagioli, a professor of theology at Villanova University. Professor, thank you so
00:34much for joining us. Thank you for having me. So there is a lot that has to happen within the
00:40Catholic Church over the next few weeks, but before we dive into the procedure and the politics,
00:44I want to ask you, what will stand out the most to you about Pope Francis's legacy? Is there
00:51something that's top of mind to you that you think will endure over time? Yes, there's one thing,
00:57and especially the fact that he was the Pope who really introduced Catholicism to the third
01:02millennium as the first Pope who was not European, not coming from the Mediterranean area, came
01:10from the margins of the Christian world, of the European world, and he saw everything through
01:18a different lens geographically and historically. Colonialism instead of World War II, the south of
01:28the world instead of Europe. This is something that really speaks about what Catholicism has become,
01:35and he has been the perfect Pope at this time. The perfect Pope at this time. Did the College of
01:42Cardinals know in 2013 that he would be the perfect Pope at this time? No, many did not, and
01:49some even expressed public regret for voting for him because they imagined something else. They imagined
01:58a slow transition after a troubled pontificate of Pope Benedict because of the scandals. They
02:06thought they had elected a Jesuit who was more conservative than the Jesuits they knew. They
02:14didn't know what they were going to get, and so that's been a pontificate full of surprises for all of us.
02:20I ask because there's a lot of speculation about who will succeed Pope Francis, but before we get into
02:27the succession planning, so to speak, I want to ask you about the procedures and traditions that will unfold
02:33over the coming days and how they might be different with Francis than with his predecessors. He is a,
02:39was a Pope who is known for being very humble, and can you talk about how his funeral plans depart from
02:47long-time tradition? It departs in small details in reality because Pope Francis made these decisions a few years ago
03:02that he wanted his funeral to be like the funeral of a bishop, not of a prince, not of a head of state.
03:11This is a cultural revolution within Catholicism because, according to many, the Pope is the last
03:18Roman emperor, and so Pope Francis rejected that. So he simplified the funeral, he simplified the
03:27pageantry, I mean, around the translation of his body from the house to Saint Peter, and then he chose to
03:35be buried, not in the Vatican, which has been the choice of many Popes in these last couple of centuries,
03:42but in Santa Maria Maggiore, which is one of the papal basilicas in Rome, which is, was one of his favorites,
03:50actually the favorite church in Rome for him because of the chapel of the Virgin Mary, but in the early
03:58modern period actually was a very popular place for papal burial before the 19th century. So there
04:06have been small changes in this, in the sense of a simplified, more austere, but not to save money,
04:15to send a kind of message. Is it possible that Vatican leadership would override his wishes? I believe
04:22I was seeing something around Pope John Paul, the first or the second, who had expressed some wish
04:28around his, his funeral, and ultimately Vatican leadership overrode that decision. Is, is that fact
04:35or fiction fiction? No, that happens sometimes, also on some other details of the testament that they left,
04:44like, like burning papers that the Pope wanted to be burned and it didn't happen. At this time,
04:51it's more difficult that this happened because, as you said, Pope Francis has the humility of a
04:57Franciscan, but also the stubbornness of Jesuits. So he knew how to make sure that his will was
05:04respected, I think. When you talk about the global lens that he brought to Catholicism and to the
05:12Vatican, I'd like to talk about some of the cardinals that he has appointed. The College of
05:17Cardinals will be a huge focus in the coming weeks. Can you talk about how much he has changed the shape
05:23of that college and specifically among the people who will be voting for the next Pope?
05:28He reshaped the College of Cardinals in different ways. One is that he made it much larger. So right
05:36now there are 135 cardinals with the right to vote because they are younger than 80, well above the usual
05:47limit of 120. So that is much larger, which means a higher room of votes of the two thirds for, for the Pope to
05:58be elected. Second, he diversified the College in the sense of appointing many more cardinals from the
06:06Global South, from Latin America, Africa, Asia, from small cities, not major capitals, not Paris, not Berlin,
06:17for example, not major cities that traditionally had the cardinal. And third, he has appointed
06:26the bishops like him, basic, I mean, much, much closer to the model of a street priest,
06:37who has pastoral experience, who's close to his people, often coming from very small churches,
06:46the cardinal of Mongolia in that entire Mongolia has fewer Catholics than in my parish
06:54in suburban Philadelphia, just to give an idea of how incredibly diverse this college is. One final
07:01problem is that it's a larger college of cardinals that don't know each other well, because they haven't
07:08met often. And so I think it will take more time at this conclave for them to know each other,
07:16to have informal exchanges, because this is part of the chemistry of the conclave. So he has reshaped
07:26the college in very significant ways.
07:28I know it's impossible to really predict how the college of cardinals will proceed and how the vote
07:36will ultimately turn out. But knowing that he has reshaped the face of the college, how do you think
07:44that will affect the vote and these conversations? You said it'll take some time for them to talk, but
07:50could it ultimately shape the ultimate choice?
07:55Well, it will, for sure. It's not necessary that having a more diverse college will give us a more
08:05diverse pope coming from the south of the world. Paradoxically, the best person to carry on Pope
08:13Francis' legacy could be one of those cardinals who worked with him in the Vatican. It could be an
08:19Italian, it could be a rebellion, so we don't know that. It's very hard also because among those
08:25cardinals made by Pope Francis, their views on some devised issues, for example, the role of women in the
08:35church or on homosexuality, are very different between a cardinal from Asia and a cardinal from
08:43from North America or Africa, right? So there is no Pope Francis block or party, okay, that can unite
08:52them from the start. It might build an alliance, but it's subject to so many unknowns right now.
09:02That is so interesting that you say there's no Pope Francis block, because I think when we talk about
09:06American Catholicism, or perhaps this is just my view, living in the Northeast and seeing some of the
09:12sects that have emerged elsewhere in the U.S., you see those that feel very anti-Pope Francis,
09:18very anti-Vatican II, and the reforms those instituted. But is that a uniquely American
09:23phenomenon? And more globally, those types of divides don't quite exist the same way?
09:30It's an American phenomenon that now threatens to spread to other countries. That's a real problem that
09:38cardinals know, right? So this is really part of the two-party system that we have in the United States,
09:45which is unique, I think, in a democracy. Certainly doesn't apply to church politics,
09:53but we know that the Catholic Church in the United States is very influential
09:58because of its cultural power, because of its wealth. And so there are some tendencies that might
10:06actually penetrate other churches in creating sex, because the new information ecosystem,
10:15the social media, the internet, favors these kind of strong feelings around a particular brand
10:23of Catholicism. But this is still very much a U.S. syndrome, I would say.
10:33To ask another political question, sometimes in politics we talk about the pendulum theory in
10:37elections, right? Each election can be a reaction to the one before. Does that same reactivity apply to
10:45the choosing of a new pope? Is it a little bit fair to assume that the college could look at everything
10:54Francis did and decide, that was too progressive, let's swing the other way?
11:01It's certainly possible. I think there are some cardinals who are very skeptical of what Pope Francis did.
11:09I wouldn't bet my money on another Jesuit pope, to be honest, because after one Jesuit pope,
11:15it's very unlikely that they will choose another Jesuit. So this swinging of the pendulum is a good insight.
11:27I think that this time, this conclave happens at a very particular time in global history,
11:32where there are so many unknowns, the new imperial way of doing foreign relations,
11:40which are actually a threat against Catholicism in many countries. So I'm not convinced that
11:49we can apply that lens, because it's typical of a Western way of looking at how different
11:58political cultures balance themselves, right? So it's possible, it's not a given.
12:06It's interesting that you talk about some of the global phenomenons threatening Catholicism,
12:11and I wonder, you've talked about this a little this week, if you could talk more about the soft power
12:17of the church within a lot of hard power we see between the US, China, Russia, some of the major global
12:25headlines right now. How does the Vatican view its position in this global environment with all
12:32these massive conflicts and questions?
12:37The Vatican is a very unique mix of a very ancient tradition that is religious, but it's also political,
12:46legal, and diplomatic. It's a church that is everywhere. It has the oldest diplomatic service,
12:55in the world. It has a very strong stance on rights, on democracy, on human dignity.
13:07It is very political in its own way. I mean, not partisan, but political. So it has an interest
13:13in creating better conditions for a dignified human life to be lived.
13:21This is a very political position to have right now. So what's new is that now we don't really know
13:30where the Western world led by the United States is going. Until a few years ago, we had a fairly stable
13:38idea of what the United States was. Now we are not so sure. That's a huge source of uncertainty for the
13:47cardinals around the world. Because if, for example, foreign aid stops coming from the United States,
13:55that impacts the churches, right? And so this is really a time of disruption of the international
14:02order. The Vatican is traditionally, especially since the early 20th century, a player wants to have a
14:12role, especially when there are wars. And this is a very delicate moment to choose a leader that can
14:21speak on the global stage to the leader of Russia, of the United States, of China, of India. That's
14:30really a new game that the Vatican has to think about geopolitically.
14:35Before we started recording, I asked you about some of the myths that exist around the Vatican,
14:43and specifically the College of Cardinals. And you said two things, one that the cardinals aren't as
14:47perhaps divorced from reality, and you mentioned social media a few minutes ago, as we all might
14:53expect. And you also said something about the wealth that is associated with the Vatican. Can you talk
14:58about these misconceptions as you see them? Well, one misconception hit me when many people were
15:06surprised that when he was a bishop, Pope Francis, before becoming Pope, he was using the public
15:12transportation system, which is totally normal for most bishops in poor countries, right? And so there's
15:21this misconception that being a bishop or being a cardinal automatically isolates you from reality.
15:28I mean, that sometimes happens, but now more than less than once, okay? Because now the church
15:36understood that the credibility relies on personal witness and how you live your life. And second,
15:45so this Dan Brown-esque idea of the Vatican, like a spectra where there is unlimited money,
15:53the unlimited checkbook that can be spent on all kinds of machinations, conspiracies,
15:59it is actually a much smaller operation than a major American university. Less money, less resources.
16:07So there's a grandeur. So there's a long tradition, the arts, and so on. But it is far less powerful in
16:17terms of raw power than we usually imagine. That's really interesting. Now, I know that predicting the
16:25next pope is a bit of a fool's errand. And as you noted at the beginning of this conversation, there were
16:31some in the college who had been surprised by what Pope Francis ultimately did in his time as pope.
16:36But I did check polymarket because humans being humans, they like to bet on things.
16:42Pietro Parolin was somewhere around 29 percent, 30 percent in the polymarket. Luis Antonio Tagle,
16:51the cardinal from the Philippines, was around 24 percent. Matteo Zuppi, I believe he's Italian,
16:58was seeing about 10 percent of the betting money. What do you make of the debate around
17:04some of these top candidates? And can we even call them top candidates?
17:11So these things are fun and good to make some money. They are often wrong. So we usually start
17:22thinking about the outcome of the conclave starting from the candidates, like in the American primaries,
17:29right? So we have to run with it. The conclave works differently. So the conclave starts with the agenda,
17:37right? What are we talking about here? What is the top issue that we should talk about here? When they
17:45coalesce around a certain set of issues, then the candidates count. It's a reverse process,
17:56right? And so, of course, I mean, I have in mind my own list of possible candidates. But what I'm
18:03more interested now is to understand what kind of conversations they are having,
18:09what they are saying in public, what they're not saying. But I'm knowing some of them,
18:16and having followed this for a long time, that's the most interesting thing, what they are thinking
18:22about, what they're talking about, because then you can have some idea on who they might think about a
18:27possible pope. Oh, that's interesting. We've talked about the global conflicts and the state of the
18:33world. But two other issues that I will be watching for. You mentioned women in leadership
18:39and the church's treatment of women in general. I know the study of female deacons is something
18:44that Pope Francis had begun, but those two papal commissions, to my understanding, had not concluded.
18:50And then, of course, we have the issue of sexual abuse within the church. And we have a network
18:54of survivors who had the survivor network for those abused by priests has called for the next pope to
19:00have no history of covering up sexual abuse. And they're also calling for a zero tolerance policy.
19:07Do you have any sense for how important these two issues will be to the college?
19:13They are very important issues. There's no question about that. Incredibly important,
19:16especially the second one on sexual abuse. They know that the papacy can be destroyed
19:24by electing the wrong person. There's no question about that. So there are also other
19:28issues that are less sensational. The Vatican really needs money. It's a very serious financial crisis.
19:41So they need to find a way or to find someone who can help fix that financial situation. This is
19:50certainly part of the conversation. What will you be looking for in the coming days and weeks?
19:57I know we have the funeral in a few days, but once the conclave starts to meet,
20:02what will you be looking for in headlines and chatter among the Catholic Church?
20:09Especially what cardinals do not say in public. There are, I mean, the conclave is made of days of
20:19voting, but there are some steps before, especially the mass for the funeral,
20:25of Pope Francis and the mass that opens the conclave, the mass pro legenda pontificia,
20:32for the election of the Pope. And there are some homilies, some gestures that indicate something.
20:39This is what happened in 2005 and what happened in 2013. They said something on the orientation
20:46of the conclave. I'm going to look for those homilies, those speeches, because they suggest something.
20:54Do you remember, was there one or two lines in 2013 that was the tell?
20:58Yes. It was the homily by Cardinal Sodano, a very conservative cardinal, who in the homily said that
21:07this church needs a Pope for reconciliation and mercy. That was close to the profile of Pope Francis.
21:19Even Pope Francis and Cardinal Sodano had very little in common, I mean, ideologically.
21:26But there was a message to the conclave, not to have one particular faction win over the other,
21:35but a candidate of compromise and of reconciliation, which is what they were looking for with Francis.
21:43Things evolved in a slightly different way, perhaps, but that was a signal intentionally
21:50sent to those Cardinals by Cardinal Sodano.
21:52A subtle signal, but a signal nonetheless. Well, there is a lot to come over the coming days.
21:58Thank you, Massimo Fagioli, Professor of Theology at Villanova, for coming on and explaining this to us.
22:05We will have to have you back once the conclave has made its decision.
22:09My pleasure. Thank you very much.